Complaining!!!

[Tiger]

Reading comments about various cabin crew, ground staff, pilots and general "slagging" of other airlines on Pprune I thought things need to be put into perspective.

Firstly, Pprune gives paxs a chance air to grievance about a flight, airline. I don`t know any other industry which gives customers the chance to do the same. Paxs have the opportunity to discuss their problems or views with airline crews and get an inside answer to what their question is , all in the safety of being anonymous. Yes I`ve even seen someone thinking crew would spit in their inflight meal if they gave there name. Never seen that happen yet....too many restaurant stories me thinks. Some busy people are coming on here and replying. This of course is their own choice.

There will always be a woeful story about a flight. And as most paxs fly BA/bmi (in the UK) there will always be more of these stories circulating.
While I don`t agree with bad service and poor flights, unfortuately, bad news always travels with the good things/point linger and get forgotten about. There is expections which varry. A paxs booking a Ryan Air flight has different expections to that of a BA paxs. On charter flights these expections are even higher as glossy brochures showing extra leg room seats and IFE and other goodie to tice you to book that special 2 week summer sun family nightmare called a HOLIDAY.

I have flown for 3 airlines now and like all jobs we come across collegues which should not be there. I`m sure you scan that office floor SLF, you know there is the great collegues, works well good laugh always cheerful. And then there`s the others that are OK, they have their off days but hey we are all human. Then there is the Oh God! please don`t let me meet them today collegues.

I watched with interest the posting regarding BA cabin crew. All those "bad" experiences. I don`t take like light of your experiences but some rumour control needs to be excerised. I met a guy out for a drink and whilst we got chatting he started tell me that "an" airline`s cabin crew calls its economy paxs "something not too polite". Now in that x number of years working at that airline did I ever hear crew call economy paxs that? NOPE!

The start of the thread slates BA crew, and after checking the profile see that they are a pilot. I was suprised, however, I know that some pilots (zero I have ever met in the last 16 years that is) take pleasure in having a go at the cabin crews, something to do with money and the such likes. I`m not saying that this person is or was doing that, but the band wagon is easily started with other woeful tails coming in fast.
Most UK airline cabin crew move to BA, for the T&C, so they all started out somewhere.
The comments were not of a constructive nature, more a full out insult. Constructive should motivate and the end help and promote, the posting rang in de-motivated tones.

General swiping of clams that ALL is wrong. Its not all, its some of...like I said look round that office.

Now...any SLF work for a Bank?

I have a complaint! And may I rant about the mistake they made and no apology

Anyone who works for a DIY store? Get in touch I have to complain.

And as for the furniture store....I`m STILL waiting for my Dinning room table and Chairs 3 months after ordering and told it would take 2 weeks to be delivered!!

And as for those useless people in ....

I`m sorry that you may not have had prefect flights with Airline 123 or XYZ but many have. Sometimes the paxs aren`t polite, and I`ve had paxs half drunk coffee chuck over me yesterday. Thanks. I`ve had the paxs tap the arm rest to show me where the towel was when I ask if I may take their used towel which was once hot and had been wiped round their face, ears and hands...thanks I`d rather not touch it.

I hope I`ve cleared up or put some sort of point of view forward. No we are not perfect. And I am human.

[cargosales]

Tiger:

Yowch.

Hope you feel better having got that off your chest.

To be fair, it was posted in the "Passengers & SLF" forum which does suggest posting our views on particular flights there.

As a relative newcomer here, I've noticed quite a number of threads relating to individual airlines (and this is NOT an invitation to restart any of those debates). Many of those threads are negative ones - perhaps it's just not in human nature to debate or mention things or flights that were great. I know I'm guilty of posting on those threads as well - in the 'getting it off your chest' vein. Plus it's much easier to post negative comments when you are anonymous!

We are lucky to have an arena like PPRuNe in which to air our views and it shouldn't be abused. However, any industry which wants to grow and move forward should be listening to its customers as well as its employees. PPRuNe is ideal for that, even if does take a keen eye to filter the bullsh*t from the truth here sometimes.

Constructive criticism should be welcomed - along the lines of the recent "What makes a good FA" thread. Now that was well phrased and had some good comments posted because it gave people from all sides of the industry a chance to put over their views. Let's hope for more like that. If nothing else, it's looking positively at an industry which is in dire need of a morale boost right now!

Hope that helps and keep smiling :D :D :D

CS

[Boss Raptor]

I am more than happy to provide praise for airlines where I have genuinely been impressed...and have done so on more than one occasion on this forum...

My current favourite airline...Air Europa of Spain...friendly service, happy crews, nice clean well presented aircraft, keen pricing...all in a very pleasant experience both short haul LGW-MAD and long haul MAD-JFK and MAD-EZE.

In 17 years in this industry I have seen the overall quality of service decline to a point that I believe has gone too far...and no as you can see personally I am not very happy about it...and supposed lower fares is no excuse...in my opinion :(

[bealine]

Yes indeed - The Passengers and SLF forum does lend itself to complaints and, as a Customer Service employee of BA, I will be happy to apologise for genuine complaints or to try to explain why some irritation has occurred.

Having been a member of senior sales management (outside the aviation industry) in a former life, I am able to spot the genuine complaint from the "let's all have a pop at BA! brigade". Proud to workwith the people at BA, both on the ground and aloft, I will defend the company to the hilt when criticism is unjustified!

However, Tiger, please do not deter our customers from voicing genuine concerns. It gives airline personnel a chance to explain......for example, why are pax advised an aircraft is delayed by 2 hours and suddenly we call it for boarding??? You and I both know why, but our customers don't and get annoyed when they're hounded to the gate, their "last name calls" ringing in their ears!

I have always believed that a person who makes a genuine complaint is interested in the well-being of your organisation and WANTS to use you again. Let's face it, if a company REALLY p***es you off, you just don't go back!

:eek:

[Eboy]

The above are all good points, in my view. The complaints get aired more that compliments. Statistically, BA is heavily represented on this board, as it seems to be UK/Europe centric. Never flown it, but I have flown KAL and Air Canada, and you will see I have recently defended KAL (in Reporting Points, of all places) and Air Canada (in this forum).

Just a thought. Maybe there could be a forum called "Best Practices" This would be only a discussion of what certain airlines do best. That is really how we make progress. No matter what the state of an airline, they do something well we can all learn from. When you combine those best practices, everyone can learn. So maybe that is it. Learning. Of course, the "notification" aspect of problems can continue.

I mostly fly United (US, South America, Asia), which I like, but is little discussed here -- again, I guess because of the European-centric nature of this board.

I will close with this. The "Cabin Crew" forum description says it is for those who "put up with the self-loading freight;" so, before we get on the plane, you are telling us we are a pain in the ass. I also note the threads about the sexiest cabin crew (but not the smartest cabin crew), and user names containing the word "tart", which in my dictionary means prostitute. I see a new thread today on creative excuses for calling in sick. Let me suggest that this, in total, is not in keeping with the image most of you want or deserve.

[Mike Southern]

Interesting thread... I am a frequent flier and I have also written a number of complaints to a number of airlines in the past, but I am not a regular whinger and something has to be seriously wrong before I put pen to paper.

Most reasonable people will accept that things go wrong periodically and accept that as a part of life. However, one thing which gets my goat (and that of many other Pax I guess) is that when things go wrong people (quite reasonably in my view) would like to know about it.... and we'd like to know the truth.

So... when I check in and ask whether the flight is on time I do not expect to be told "yup..." when 20 minutes later the board says '1 hour delay' (which normally turns into 1.5 hours). The long and short of it is; if you are going to bullsh!t the Pax don,t make the lie transparent - and preferably tell people the truth... after all many of us have loved ones or taxis (opposite end of the spectrum I know!) arranged at the other end - how are we supposed to keep others informed when we don't know the truth?

Another issue is 'lost' luggage - I know it can happen (it's happened to me 5 times) and I think all airlines are as bad as each other, so I won't name names, but you guys know when a plane takes off whether my bag is on or not (if not another Lockerbie is gonna happen). So why, 7 hours later, do I have to stand around the baggage carousel for 45 minutes until the last bag disappears before I can go to the handling agent to get my wash bag and luggage claim ticket? It makes a bad situation even worse, when you should be trying to make it better.

And one last thing.... when something has gone wrong it is my experience that the airline does the absolute least possible, presumably in the name of saving costs... I can tell you that keeping customers (especially frequent fliers) happy is a much better business proposition. In fact, to put this into context, I used to be a gold card holder with a 'One World' alliance member, but following a number of bad experiences and an apparent lack of interest from the airline concerned I am now a blue card holder (and only holding onto that to spend my miles!), but now a goldie with a star alliance member..... draw your own conclusions.... A bottle of wine, or a box of chocs doesn't cost much, but it can make a big difference.

Grrrrr...! that's got that off my chest.

[Tiger]

At last feel that something constructive has started here.

bealine

I`d never stop a complaint if genuine. I worked as a Customer Service Manager for a large travel agent here in the UK. It was very interesting, and a real eye opener.
Yeap, do I have some stories to tell there.
Unfortuately, most peope grab pen and paper and start their complaint when still in a bad mood/full of anger, which leads to often long and leaving the reader confused. ie not knowing quite what the problem is/was.


Boss

I believe I lead you to the Air Europa web site some months poss a year ago when you were asking about other LGW-MAD services. I`m glad to see they are serving you well.



The main aim of my posting was the overall word use of "ALL" refering to cabin crew for example, and point out that other industries have employees which let them down.

Like I have already said there will be people who dislike one brand from another, and aren`t ever going to be impressed what ever you do. My example is of the BHX-BRU route with BA and BD operating the route. SN only really picked up concecting flight paxs.

It easy on pprune to complain for many reasons, one being we don`t leave personal details so the complain comes across as say less personal, even condeming who ever it is, less reasoning perhaps....??
Its also easy to start a thread which if was face to face a full scale punch up would result...

[flapsforty]

Interesting thread.....


cargosales, glad you thought the "What makes a good FA" thread had some merit. But have you noticed how "The world's LEAST favourite cabin crew!" attracted a lot more response? I found that disappointing. Symptomatic of the fact that it is easier to say what we don't like than to put in words what we do appreciate?

Eboy, the forum description was written by a pilot. ;) And while these honourable chaps (and chapessses) have many sterling qualities, they are not attracted to their job because of their intense desire to interact with people. :) Many pilots can not concieve where on earth we FAs find the patience and the genuine servilty required to be a good at our jobs. The CC forum description is not a sleight to passengers but more a badge of honour for us FAs from the pilots.
Of course they can not be seen to have too much respect for us, so they have coined a number of "humorous" expressions to describe us. Expressions used both on these boards and in real life. Talk in the airline business can be fairly "to the point & less than refined"............ :D Mr40 can still get shocked by the rough & blatant manner of speech he hears when he comes with me on a trip occasionally.
We are used to it, and used to the sobriquets, and as a kind of pre-emptive strike, many of us have adopted a PPRuNe name in the same vein. Calling in sick creatively is disgusting BTW, but to be fair, some companies find it cheaper to have a fake-sick percentage rather than making the staff rosters "workable". And this is fact, not fiction!

Mike Southern your point about passengers wanting the truth seems so logical doesn't it?
I make a point of ALWAYS telling the pax the truth and doing it as soon as we ourselves have the info. And what never ceases to amaze me is the amount of, especially business, travellers who simply refuse to believe either the captain or me. People who laugh at me sarcastically, people who look me straight in the face and accuse me of lying!! Mike, I do tell the truth, but it's perplexing how many people prefer to think that I'm lying and that I have some kind of secret agenda.

It is my experience that in general, both Pilots and FAs will do their utmost to get the passengers to their destination on time, safely and happily. Not always, but 99% of the time.

We are proud of our skills & of our jobs and want you back as customers.
But we are only human, politeness works both ways and many circumstances that affect a scheduled flight are beyond the control of both pilots and cabin staff.

If you've had the patience to read this far, thank you & http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/kiss.gif

[mainfrog2]

As a purser I am told if I have to reprimand somebody that there has to be a positive and a negative aspect to the reprimand but that the negative part must be first.

If complaining I find you get a better reaction from whoever it is if you drop in some positive aspect to the experience. People do tend to react differently when they realise you have managed to notice there was some good in your experience as well. It makes you appear to be more balanced and objective in your critisism and not just winging for the hell of it.


About delays. Sometimes I have landed at an airport, with no delay and something breaks on the aircraft or ATC delay the slot. There is going to be a point in time when that delay didn't exist and when it did. Sometimes that delay can be created after you have checked in and gone through security.

Agree with flapsforty that I have lost count of the times when I have had some snear from a pax after I have told then the truth about why we are delayed, why do pax think I have any reason to lie to anyone.

[PAXboy]

I am mystified that folks do not believe you, especially when face to face. :( [There is no smiley for shaking head in amazement]

For me - the following works:
* I ensure that folks know that I am travelling by air and the ETA.
* That the folks who are meeting/expecting me know details to check with carrier.
* Make sure that all have my mobile phone number.

If a delay occurs, you try and get a message to the other end by mobile, e-mail (in the departure lounge) or even an on board phone, if on a long haul. That is expensive but if the delay is long or the appointment vital - worth the cost.

Then, sit back and use the delay to read/sleep/work/drink/eat/write/listen to music/etc.
There is no point in getting steamed up as there is NOTHING that you can do about it! Further, since the flight and cabin crew probably want to get to the destination as much as you do, they will get there as soon as they safely can.

The best bit about delays is that it gives you extra time to do those things that you have not had time to do, such as read/sleep/work/drink/eat/write/listen to music/etc. One of the joys of a delay is that you cannot be contacted by anyone - peace!. Of course, I realise that folks that are on urgent missions to a friend or family member that is ill, will not be able to relax. But, for the most part, my advice for a delay is - Enjoy :cool:

[DistantRumble]

Good work from all ! I love being SLF me (Apologies to the band though )


there are some good people on the forum to answer questions -

and Bealine positively glows when you compliment BA or Gatwick.


We'll listen to anyone ...

(just try posting on reporting points ! Hee hee ! )

[Momo]

Well, most people give good service, most places, most of the time, whatever the industry.

Now there was that time in Benghazi in 1977 when an unintelligble annoucement, not concerning my flight came on. There was a big rush of angry PAX over to a service desk. Whereupon the uniformed type behind the desk got up on top of it with a long stick and started to vicously beat anyone he could reach.

Never seen that at Heathrow. (My favourite beef there is the usually-strict appication of the 30-minute checkin rule by BA in T1, even for flights that are 15-30 minutes late. The T2 airlines don't bother being so strict. Oh, and the occasional BA hand luggage weigh-in, no matter what the size, even for stuff that easily fits under the seats in economy. If the nominal safety reason were true, well we must be very unsafe when in Business, where I have never had anything weighed, and the limit is higher. (A "Full-measurement" IATA carry-on case weighs 2.5-3kg empty.) I have never seen BA bother with weighing in any other country.:eek:

[TightSlot]

flapsforty Eloquence with elegance - nice response!

[DX Wombat]

Allow me to redress the balance a little. Recently I needed to fly out to Australia at extremely short notice as my mother was very ill. I explained the position to QF and had a seat on the next day's flight booked for me in two minutes. Sadly my mum died very peacefully 2.5 hours before I landed in Australia but I have nothing but praise for all the QF staff who had anything to do with my flight, from the person who made the booking, the technical and cabin crews, to the member of groundstaff who went airside many times to try to retrieve my bag (and eventually succeeded) then whizzed me through customs and out to the friend who was meeting me. The return trip also saw QF at their best, getting me onto an alternative flight when the one I should have been on was delayed overnight. Well done all of you, your care and concern is much appreciated. Letters to the appropriate people will be on their way shortly. :)

[Shadowpurser]

BA is a large company - therefore a large target.

And as is quite rightly said in this thread the bad flights are talked about more than the good ones.

Unfortunately - that's life!! But we live with it!! I may be on a one man mission to turn the airline around, I don;t think I am as I believe the vast majority of my collegeues want the company to rise to the top again.

If you want to compliain - complain!!! Do it and feel better that you have!!!

HOWEVER!!! If you have had a good flight.... tell us about that too! We want to know when we are doing things wrong - but we also want to know when we are doing things right!!!

A compliment about the service and the crew from 2 passengers means so much to me and make me and my crew want to bring up the quality of service even more.

So next time you have a GOOD flight...take 2 seconds to compliment the crew or tell the seniore crew member it was good. We do feed it back, it does make us feel good, it does make us want to do more, it helps us do our job better and make your lives that little bit easier.

Tell us!!! We don't bite.......hard..... he he!!

[timzsta]

I work for a Stansted based airline, both on check in and in departures. I hope to be able to enlighten those, no matter how often they fly, of some of the problems we can face in the airline industry.

Firstly, something that can cause a delay can crop up at any time. Check in closes at 30 mins to departure and all could be well. Then ATC enforce a slot restriction and now we have a 1 hour delay. There could be a technical problem develop with the aircraft. An aircraft arrives on time, then a delay is caused by problems getting a disabled passenger off. All those things can happen at short notice and can happen right up until departure.

Problems with lost baggage are very annoying for passengers. I can assure you that control of bags going onto the aircraft is very strict. The problem is often at the arrival end - ie a bag on the wrong carousel, another passenger takes your bag by mistake, things like that.

But please have the sense to realise that we dont like when it goes wrong either. I would much rather put 140 passengers on a 737 with no problem then have them screaming at me at the gate because we are late, trust me I have been there.

Please remember too we are all just trying to make a living at the end of the day, to pay our bills and support our families. We dont deserve abuse, verbal or physical in our work place, for things that are out of our hands. It takes one thing to really ruin our day. Recently I did an 11 hour shift in departures - everything went fine. Ten minutes before I was due to finish I met an inbound aircraft and got a torrent of abuse because I was unable to deal with something that was totally out of my control. I went home very annoyed and couldn't sleep and had another 11 hour shift to do the next day.

And please remember, we all make mistakes at work from time to time. We have lots of double checks and trip wires in the airline industry to spot them when we do. Remember when you put a spelling mistake in a letter for the boss you can just correct and reprint and no one knows. We make a mistake at work and it usually inconveniences people.