Virgin Atlantic

[Goodness Gracious Me]

Hello all,

I'm after some info on the general state of affairs in VS at the moment. I've been offered an interview but, if successful, would be giving up a lot of seniority in another outfit. With the current status quo in the aviation industry and the looming threat of Gulf War II, I'm fairly reticent about any immediate move without some more info.

I know there has been a lot of bad press about the way the 9/11 situation was handled, but have things been sorted out & calmed down?

What are the expansion plans, if any, for VS?

Pension? Am I right in thinking it's a money purchase scheme, not a final salary scheme?

Any idea what a first-year F/O's salary is, or what they might take home at the end of the month?

Do VS apply training bonds?

Any info or advice would be great.

Thanks.

[Goodness Gracious Me]

Sorry - forgot to ask one other point: what's a "typical" roster like e.g. how many trips can you expect per month, and how many days off between them, etc.

Thanks again.

[rupetime]

Hope they dont do a test at the interview on the difference between Reporting Points (News) and Terms and Endearment.

rt

[Jacksman]

Tin Tin I hear what you say, not what I expected, however it would be nice to check out VS first hand.

Is anybody willing to appraise me of what to expect at interview and the following selection process? - anything will be better than working for the charter/low-cost/regional airline that I work for now!

[chukky]

I went to the interview not long ago. I was told that "some of your days off will be down route". That is not acceptable in this day and age.

[scroggs]

Virgin did overdo the reaction post-9/11, but so did some others. However, Virgin does appear to be recovering somewhat more strongly than other airlines in the same or similar marketplaces. Whether that is a reflection of Virgin's management, or a statement about Virgin's strong brand image, you'll have to judge for yourself. As for the airline's potential longevity, who knows? I doubt that any airline has a cast-iron future, but I'd be prepared to bet that we'll still be around in another 18 years. Expansion is back on the agenda, but it's unlikely to be quick!

Virgin's T&C's aren't the best, and there is considerable and vocal discussion going on right now about that subject between the company and the CC. I'd say that trading conditions right now are unlikely to support a large increase now, but that a substantial improbement in the future is on the cards. However, this is only my opinion! If you want a comparison on current pay and benefits, try this site: Airline Pay Comparisons (http://www.pilotpay.100megsfree5.com/j.html) . It's not totally up-to-date, but it's not far off. The pension is a defined contribution one, with the company contributing 15% of gross pay. Starting pay for an FO is about 40K, rising to 55K after 18 years (time to command is an unknown right now, but bank on 5 years minimum). Maximum hours is 750 pa. Days off can be down route, but aren't often. I get about 12-14 days at home a month and three or four trips (I'm Airbus - the 744 guys do more, shorter, trips).

The grass is always greener, isn't it?! But I'm pretty happy here at Virgin. There are moans and groans, and there are items of perpetual disagreement between 'them' and us, but I doubt they're anything you haven't heard before elsewhere.

If you want to know more, e-mail me - but be prepared to wait, as the pprune mail server is down right now!

[Dunhovrin]

Be prepared to wait... because Scroggs is probably either in mid-Siberia/-Atlantic or using one of his 9 days off this month to sleep...

[scroggs]

Aktshirley, Dun me old, I'm on a 10-day break between Jo'burg trips, doing the bloody decorating. Still. And trying to persuade some, no, any, bloody builder to erect (ooer) an extension for me (ooer again!).

And my commute is a good deal shorter than yours, mate!

[Dunhovrin]

Now I know Í'm on the wrong fleet. It must be me that's got 9 day's off this month.

[Dan Winterland]

Nine days - luxury!

[dickyflys]

Don't even go there! The grass is greener and all that! I thought it was and it's NOT!

[gregory gomez]

just curious...

can you bid for trips at virgin?

[scroggs]

Yes, on a rotating bid group system. It generally works OK, if yours is the favoured group for a particular month. I personally prefer to bid for particular days off, but you can use the system either way.

[dickyflys]

You can bid for trips or days off, LUCK if you get either. If you do, it will have standby somewhere before it that will ensure you don't do it anyway!

[skid]

DICKFLYS:
interested to know what sort of operator you moved from to go to VS. You are v.negative (as we often are) about T&C's at VS. Looking at the bare bones of the deal they seem a bit better than my current employer (big charter) in terms of fringe benefits like hols, allowances etc.

[dickyflys]

I came from a low cost small charter company, and thougt the same as you. New Labour learnt all of it's spin from Virgin Atlantic, just remember that. Branson can sell **** to anybody. The free flights and all the rest sound fantastic, try and use them and the novelty soon wears off. However, there is only one way to find it out, as I did. Good luck!

As to Leave, when they get around to allocating it, you need it! You will probably have been rostered to death just before it. There is no seasonal work load as with charter, it's full on 365 days of the year. This now includes Christmas away without your family as the anti morale unit have decided it's standby companion tickets only, and NOBODY got to L.A. last year.

[scroggs]

Just thought I'd point out that we may not all be comparing like with like here. dickyflys is, according to his (her?) profile, cabin crew. While some Ts&Cs are common between flight deck and cabin crew, many are not. I'm not decrying dickyflys' point of view, but it wouldn't be right to assume that all he says applies equally to flight deck - equally, flight deck have some gripes that don't apply to CC!

[H-D]

You mentioned earlier a start pay for FO of 40K does this include allowances, and if not how much are allowances worth on a typical month?

Also I'm considering basing myself near a Scottish hub and commuting, do many people do this?

[AutoAbort]

GGM!

There is no crystal ball. I left a top seniority in a small carrier to join a "major Scandinavian carrier" almost 4 years ago.
Next week I will receive my pink slip.

My only advice is to follow your gut feeling.

Good Luck!

[Astronut]

Sroggs
Maybe you could post some basic T & C's for people to make a comparison with their own companies. At the end of the day what is good, bad or indifferent is different for every individual depending on circumstances, aspirations etc etc.

There has been some discussion re: easy F/O's leaving for Virgin,
may be that should include those Virgin F/O's being interviewed and simmed by easyjet over the last few weeks!

[skid]

thanks dickflys and scroggs. I think the problem we all have is the slow but inexorable deterioration to our t&C's whoever we fly for. Certainly in the past 3 years my tt at work has increased, along with other irritations and the days of a quiet winter for the charter pilots are very definately numbered. Observe Airtours and Brittania transforming themselves into low cost operators. The point is, having realised that the golden age of being an airline pilot is well and truly over and wherever you work, you're going to be worked hard are we better off doing 12 sectors a month at VS or 32 sectors a month at MyTravel or Easy? Tough question to answer, the short haul guys mostly get home at nights, but at least VS guys and gals get a pint at the end of their working day!!:)

[luke77]

....and VS have by-far the best looking dollies!

[Smokie]

12-32 sectors a month magic, where do I apply to ?
I'm currently flying 80-90 sectors a month, every month and working my bollox off !:(

[dickyflys]

I'm not cabin crew, sorry about that.

You need a beer at the end of a 14 hour flight with an eight hour time change and your body completely upside down. Oh yeah, it's great fun! Party till you retire then drop dead, although there aren't any parties anymore!

[Chokdee]

Where do Virgin fly to that takes a flight time of 14 hrs. Assuming they do then I would think that four crew on the flightdeck would be a doddle.

[Norma Spartz]

My last FDP on a HKG/LHR was 15:30, and, even with in flight rest, this was no "doddle". I had peviously been called out for a LAX and had just 2 nights at home before the HKG. I assume you understand the significance of the time change Chokdee, so if you are suggesting that we have a high quality of life which we earn by accepting low pay compared to you, you are mistaken. Virgin is just like any other Airline, it treats it's people just like any other Airline, it just pays them less because the staff (so far) let them get away with it.

If anyone fancies a change of scenery, then by all means jump across the fence to Virgin, only, don't expect anything different from your current job.:(

[Buzzzz]

Scroggs, I have to disagree with you.

You stated time to command is 5 years minimum.
F/O's currently employed by Virgin who are at, or near the bottom of the seniority list, will have to wait for the company to expand by 35 aircraft before they even get a sniff of a command.
Do the maths; to get a command in 5 years:
35 aircraft divided by 5 = 7
7 new B747’s or A340’s per year; Feasible? I think not.

F/O’s Basic salary.
The real F/O’s Basic salary is 38k, not the 40k you were estimating. Some £86 per month (net) less than your indication.

Easy lifestyle.
Beware all you short haulers - Virgin’s rosters are neither easy or stable. On the B744 you will fly around 85 hours per month. This might look a walk in the park, but do not underestimate the effects of jetlag, combined with losing a nights sleep on each trip.

Scroggs, looking at your profile, I see that your previous career was with the RAF (22 years)… So I guess that your pension, from Her Majesty, is around £10,000 per year - this probably helps you to afford the smug air of comfort you exude. There is also more than a faint whiff of management about you, so, perhaps a management salary as well?

Whilst flying my exhausting roster, I have the pleasure of flying with many colleagues. Not once in the last three years have I flown with anybody that shares your opinion of Virgin.

Finally, we all have a responsibility to our colleagues across the industry to tell the truth. Seniority is a precious thing, so think very carefully before you throw it away.

[Chokdee]

Hi Norma Spartz
I did not suggest that Virgin has "a high quality of life which we earn by accepting low pay". My point was one of flight time, not FDP. I am sorry for the confusion. I would however, like to know who you are comparing salaries with, when you say that "it just pays them less.

[Norma Spartz]

Hi Chokdee, some excellent research has been done by our CC as part of our current pay claim. Comparisons were made with all of the major European and Far Eastern carriers who operate similar routes and equipment, and included levels of pay, benefits, seat cost/mile, produtivity of the workforce etc. The conclusion was that we're getting shafted.

To get back to the original point of this thread - the grass is not green here at the moment. There is considerable anger and frustration at the relentless erosion of our terms and conditions and I would not be surprised to see some form of industrial action taking place before Christmas. Don't come here for the lifestyle either. As I write, I've no idea what I am doing next month - no roster, no explanation.

One positive though, time to command for those at the bottom of the list is improving all the time as the number of leavers accelerates!

[flite idol]

Amazing how two people can get totally differing conclusions from the same post! Buzzz, interesting but wrong!

[scroggs]

Buzzzz

You seem to take exception to one of my posts. Perhaps I can remind you (and others) of the paragraph which seems to have raised your bile:
Virgin's T&C's aren't the best, and there is considerable and vocal discussion going on right now about that subject between the company and the CC. I'd say that trading conditions right now are unlikely to support a large increase now, but that a substantial improvement in the future is on the cards. However, this is only my opinion! If you want a comparison on current pay and benefits, try this site: Airline Pay Comparisons . It's not totally up-to-date, but it's not far off. The pension is a defined contribution one, with the company contributing 15% of gross pay. Starting pay for an FO is about 40K, rising to 55K after 18 years (time to command is an unknown right now, but bank on 5 years minimum). Maximum hours is 750 pa. Days off can be down route, but aren't often. I get about 12-14 days at home a month and three or four trips (I'm Airbus - the 744 guys do more, shorter, trips).
You'll note that I do not set myself up as the font of all knowledge on the subject, but I doubt that there's much in this paragraph that is far from the truth. Your time-to-captaincy calculations are very impressive, and may yet turn out to be correct; who knows? All I said was that time to command was currently an unknown and would be a minimum of five years. Is that so wrong? You dispute my suggestion that starting pay is 'about £40k'. I'm sorry if it wasn't correct to 2 decimal places, but it's in the right ballpark. Anyone seriously interested in discovering greater detail can do so quite easily. As for your attempts to disparage my character and position, I won't dignify them with an argument. There are plenty both here and in the airline who know who I am; do a little research and you will too, if you're really interested.

As for your final comment to others about not throwing away seniority lightly, I totally agree.

[Chokdee]

Thanks for the reply Norma. I think that your CC need to be very careful in comparing the salaries of Airlines, particularly in the Far East, Korean as an example. This is due to contract pilots earning far more than local pilots, as is most often the case. If you start comparing the likes of Thai Airways, who don't employ ex pats now, then the picture painted would differ from its current guise. I guess that you will get in the region of 8%, and I am sure you would agree that strike action would be detrimental to the company in the long run. Good luck!.