Stapleford Flight Centre anyone?

[jonjon]

Hi everyone,

I am 25 (nearly 26) years old and planning to start a course towards fATPL.
This question has probably been asked about a million times but I am just joining the forum so bare with me...
What do you think is the best option:

- integrated course?
or
- modular?


I only have few hours (a bit less than 30) and I hold a class 1 medical

During my research I came across this school called Stapleford flight centre located near London, they seem to offer a very descent price, almost to cheap for Europe actually (£25,000)...
Has anyone of you heard of them or even better been through their training?

Thanks everyone

[Pilot16]

Hi there,
You will find quite a few Stapleford students here including myself. Im currently doing my PPL there.

The most obvious advise you will get here is that you should not pay too much in advance even if there is large discounts.

I would most definately advise you to buy 'The Guide to getting a Commertcial Pilot License' by Clive Hughes before you embark.

Pilot16

[blue_side_up]

I did a conversion course at Stapleford not too long ago (from a foreign licence), so not exactly the same experience you're going to have, but... I found them to be an excellent small school. I was surprised at the relatively low hourly rates and immediately suspected clapped out 30yr old 152's, etc. Anyway, they had well maintaned a/c, some very good instructors (and a couple that I didn't like, but luckily very few). I would say that, the same for any school, before committing any money, go take a look. Colin Dobney is still the CFI I believe. Any further questions feel free to drop me a private email.
Cheers

[FatFlyer]

This is the price for the modular course, they do not do the integrated course there so you would start with the PPL build some hours, then go on to CPL, multi & IR, the ground school is done at Guildhall (or elseshere), not at Stapleford.

[jonjon]

Thanks for your posts!

FatFlyer (or anyone else), do you have any idea of the quality of the Guildhall notes? I haven't heard much about them...

[Number Cruncher]

I too have asked this question. Apparently, attending the full time classroom course is pretty decent, however, i was told that if you are considering the distance learning method, then think about looking elsewhere. I've been told the notes are a bit 'wordy' (per an SFC instructor), and even though i live a mile from the Guildhall, after reading so many positive things about BGS, i have decided that i will probably eventually use them. Even if it does mean splashing out on 4 weeks away accommodation.

As for SFC, i had a trial lesson there recently. They have a pretty big fleet, they own the airfield and they're local to me, hence i start my PPL this Saturday!! Can't wait.

All the best

[Antonfol]

From my experience of the Guildhall notes, I found in comparison to SFT's, that they were longwinded and maybe went on a bit too much then was needed. The style of SFT is concise and the information that is given is relevant to passing the Exams. Good luck.

[cabinkitten]

Did someone say Stapleford / AC in good condition in the same sentence??? You have to be joking!!! I have been around a bit and can say with confidance that I have never seen such a collection of old relics! Even flown a few of their C152's....not good! I especially like the way that you can be on the taxi way behind another C152, a seneca, BMW, Volkswagon, Yak 52, Ford Escort etc etc.

However I can't comment too much about the quality of instruction. Everything that I have heard in this department is very positive!

CFI claims some sort of connection with Ryan Air....I have yet to see any evidence of this although I am prepared to eat my words.

[Crosswind Limits]

Colin Dobney is head of training and the CFI is either Alan Turner or Annabel Winter. As far as I know Colin used to fly for Ryanair but not sure if he still does.

Stapleford a/c ok and instruction generally good.

Cabinkitten,

I won’t comment on the fact that you have “been around a bit”
:D

[iainpoll]

Colin Dobney is head of training, Alan Turner is CFI.

Been with Stapleford 4 months, generally happy, some A/C better than others, but definately not a problem. Standard of instruction is good. Colin used to fly Ryanair, Anabelle Winter was Monarch I think.

Club is friendly, you will meet some nice people and a few 'characters'.

Please feel free to PM me if you want any more info.

PS I elected not to do Guildhall in favour of Bristol, just a personal choice!

Iain

[Rhumb Line]

First things first go the modular route, why pay more for getting the same piece of paper at the end of the day. Did my modular CPL/IR and found it to be excellent. Eric Thurston who does your IR has been teaching Instrument Ratings for 50 years and is known to be one of the best in the business. Aircraft are well maintained and there are plenty of them.
Good luck with it all.

[CityLiving]

LGU notes are a bit wordy, but the main thing is to beg, borrow etc. all the feedback questions you can get your hands on. This is likely to be a key factor that will get you through the exams.

Stapleford I found to be very good for both my CPL and IR. The 152s are only used for PPL and hourbuilding. The CPL and IR work is done on Warriors, Arrow and Seneca. The bottleneck tends to come with the fact that they only have one decent Arrow that is used for both for CPL work and initial IR work. Overall, I would recommend Stapleford as a high quality outfit that is very focused on getting people through professional flying tests. Good luck!

[Flying Lion]

Just to clear up a few points here. Firstly the London Guildhall (now London Metropolitan University) notes. Whilst these were a source of concern in the past a new set of notes produced in conjunction with Lund university in Sweden and Nordic Aviation in Norway are infinately better . They are clear in colour and all info needed for passing ATPL is there. All the progress checks are feedback questions as are the practice exams at the end of the course. As with all things in life the more you put in the more you get out. People who are putting the effort in are passing all first time or dropping only 1 or 2. The overall pass rates are well above the national average.

Secondly Stapleford Flight Centre, there is a fleet of 18 C152s which range from basic for purely VFR & hours building up to an airways equiped model. Also they have 3 C172s , 4 Warriors 2 of which are used for commercial training. and 3 Arrows while only one of these Arrows is used for commercial tests another is having a fairly hefty avionics upgrade to fit HSI, RMI, & later GPS at the end of Oct. & will be approved end of December. Also on the fleet are 2 Senecas for twin/IR training. The Jewel in thier crown however is the FNPT2 simulator which they purchased this year and is proving remarably successful and popular with the students.
Finally the personalities. Head of training is Colin Dobney who joined from Ryanair and still flys for them occasionally. He was also with Sabre Airways before that so has good knowledge of both the Scheduled and Charter airline business operation. He is heavily involved with the IR training and 170A tests for CPL & IR.
Eric Thurston is the Head Synthetic Flight Instructor and as has already been mentioned in this thread he has been training for nearly 50 years. Commercial CFI is Annabel Winter who is ex monarch and BIA, she is also a CAA CPL examiner. PPL CFI is Alan Turner.
My final bit of advise is to check out their excellant pass rates, go & visit them and talk to the students there on courses, I've yet to hear a bad word about the place

[take_me_on_high]

Flying lion, sounds like you are affiliated with them in some way. I like how you put 'I haven't heard a bad word about them yet'. Well I will give one -

1) I studied at LGU and was so very disappointed with the course and there notes. Out of a very crammed class of 32 people(too many people to teach in one go) only 6 people have finished the course completly after 13 months of the course start. I am sure other courses there have faired better. Countless have no doubt given up on the course. So to correct the situation I purchased some rather quality notes and went distance learning. No dis-respect to LGU because there are some fine instructors there, but the standard of teaching and education is not what I would have expected. I have also seen the new notes and they are filled with errors because of translation problems. There was a continual supply of updates to the notes which was very frustrating. Although I am nearing the end of my exams, it is mostly due to my own perseverence and determination to get what I want. So where you say that those who want it bad enough will finish, well that's becuase they will do whatever it takes. I only wish I had chosen a better school, but wanted to go full time and so LGU was closest. I have recieved some exceptional help from other sources because there is a real lack of customer service at lgu.

2) Stapleford - downhill slope grass runway. What more can I say. I am sure that the instructors are good, but there are also plenty of other experienced instructors out there. I don't think I really want to gain my commercial from a grass strip. Heathrow is made of concrete. Also, no navaids at stapeleford although I hear there is a rwy nearby that has it all. landing fees must go through the roof.

At the end of the day, I think you get what you paid for and I have done most of my training on the cheap so far and have been disappointed at most elements from customer service to organisation structure. I want to be in a professional environment and most of what I have seen is disarray. Well, you only do your commercial licence once and so I will be forking out for the best training I can get that will help further my career. I want to come out on top as one of the best trained pilots with as much knowledge as I can gain. I don't want to be given just enough to pass. There is a difference between a trained pilot and a well trained pilot.

Well, got that of my chest finally.
Jd

[superstar]

take_me_on_high ?

I'm not sure what experience you have of Stapleford, but its obviously not a lot!

I've just finished my CPL/IR at Stapleford and I'm not sure that you are talking about the same place!

Firstly, you may not have noticed that for the past five years or so, there has been a tarmac runway which is long enough for commercial operations, used by King-Air's, Navajo's etc. (If you have a problem with grass runways, perhaps you should stay away from most General Aviation strips in England - but then again, you do want to be a "well" trained pilot.) It may come as a shock to you, but you may not be lucky enough to immediatly operate from a major airport (Heathrow), this may mean that you have to instruct from a grass strip!

As for navigational aids you may also have missed the VOR/DME at the end of the runway! This is used for various training approaches.

I can't speak for the training at London Guildhall, as I studied elsewhere, but I do hear that they are improving. I do agree with flying lion that you only get out what you put in !?!

I enjoyed my experience at Stapleford where I found the staff friendly and level of instruction very good.

For me, the price was right, training was excellent and any approaches elsewhere still worked out A LOT cheaper in the long run!!

[iainpoll]

TMOH

I dont want to get involved in a flame war here, because you are right Stapleford are not perfect.

However, to correct you on a few points.

Only RNWY04L is a down sloping grass runway, how about RNWY22L? 680 meters of asphalt, and certainly enough to land even a King Air easily!

Also, the LAM VOR is located at the airfield, enabling practice VOR approaches. sure, if you want to shoot ILS you have to fly the 10 minutes to Southend. This is however clearly stated in the company literature which, no doubt people read before deciding on a school.

In my experience so far, Stapleford are a well organised outfit, and whilst perhaps I would appreciate a little more guidance and structure during my hour building, the cost is so much more reasonable than say Oxford integrated (£54,000 - against £24,995). Hey, at those rates, once I get the CPL/IR I could afford a 737 type rating, and still have change from the Oxford rate!

I am not affiliated, I do have some critisisms, but I do not regret my choice of Stapleford one bit. My choice of BGS was a personal one, and no one is 'forced' to use LGU, after all it remains your money to spend as you see fit, did you look into alternatives?

Anyway, best of luck with you ongoing training.

Iain

[Number Cruncher]

Is anywhere perfect?!?

Surely as long as you get through the training and pass all the exams and tests as required, who gives a toss?!

I had my first lesson there today and feel as though i am going to experience a very ineteresting and enjoyable time over the next couple of years...........at Stapleford!!

Ps, when a flying school does starts up at EGLL, do let me know!

[rockaria]

Just a couple of comments about Stapleford and LGU.

I did the full time ATPL course at Guildhall through last year, i agree that there was room for improvement with regards to the notes but i believe that many of the student comments have been taken on board. It is true that there seems to be a low number of people who start the course there finishing all of their training within 12 months..but isnt that the case everywhere? In the middle of our course the unfortunate events of 9/11 occurred so many of the wannabees have put their training on hold until the airline industry picks up and recruitment once again starts happening.

As with any course you do, what you put in is what you get out.

I then commenced my CPL/multi IR training at Stapleford in January this year. The instruction was excellent the aircraft (especially the cpl/ir ones) are well maintained. It was true that a bottleneck occurred with the use of the one Arrow for CPL and early IR training but this has now been rectified with the new FNPT2 trainer, all the early IR training is now undertaken on this so freeing up the Arrow for the cpl training.

They managed to get me through all my exams in minimum hours with full first time passes, as they have done with many students before and after me.

Another good thing about SFC is that everyone gets along and there is a great sense of friendship there with everyone helping each other. Students are generally paired up so that when one is flying the other can sit in the back and watch, this basically doubles your experience and certainly helps you grasp all the ideas much quicker (believe me, any help is definitely a bonus!).

Anyway before this turns into a book i'll think i'll go now! :) If anyone has any other questions then dont hesitate to mail me.

Rockaria

[Bob Fleming]

anybody done the FIC at Stapleford?

any comments about that?...

[caramel]

TMOH

I agree with you! LGU's notes were definately too long winded for distance learning and poor pic too, I changed to BGS and would recommend them to everyone.

I hope to start at stapleford some time next year what seems to be good there is the amount of students and instructors who got jobs where as at my local school the same instructors have been there for the last few years with only two who have seem to moved on to work.

As for the writtens it is all about determination and perservence it is hard probably the hardest thing you'll ever have to do have good people around you and you'll have no problems.

MOST IMPORTANT KEEP FLYING!

[rockaria]

Ive also done the FIC at stapleford, many of the people there who do the commercial training continue and do the FIC. The course is run by Keith Pogmore, who is an excellent instructor, with lots of experience and a 100% pass rate. The course is run on the c152s, warriors and the c175 so definitely alot of variation with the types you get to fly.

The bulk of the training is on the warriors to enable students to get paired up, so basically in the same amount of time you get to run through the course twice, so once with yourself doing it and revision through the student your paired with. Definitely an advantage.

I cant answer for all the people who have been through the FIC course, but certainly the people who have finished in the past few months have found no problems with regard to finding employment.

I'd definitely advise you to at least go and have a look and talk to the people who are there, they are obviously the best ones to give you advice. If you are considering any kind of training you should really go see the schools on your short list and go with your instincts.

Rockaria

[take_me_on_high]

What can I say. Eat my words! There's nothing like throwing a bit of fire in the pan. Well, I did know that there was a asphalt rwy at stapleford and I haven't taken off from it yet(how I forget things on the heat of writting). But I didn't know that there was a VOR.
I flew a seneca out of stapleford the other week to keep current with my twin rating and found the plane to be in excellent quality. I did see a few cessnas in bad shape, but I hate those planes anyway. Give me a piper any day.
They do seem to be in a reasonable location just outside of london and the bar there is pretty reasonable and always has a few people inside.
As for training there, I like the idea of both being in the same plane to learn of each others mistakes. Perhaps I should give stapleford a second look before dismissing them. I only go on past experience of cheap price = cheap service. Now if I pay the expensive price at say OAT or Cabair, atleast I am fairly certain of what I am getting. I originally started my ppl with cabair and found them to be second to none compared to several schools I tried. So, I eat my words and will take all your advice and check it out again.
OK, as for LGU, the stuff about lots of people getting all first passes first time is utter BS. very few do at LGU and only recently have pass rates been increasing because of a few additions of good tutors and feedback questions that appear to come from....O.hh.....A.nother.....T.ime (put it together). Some people say you get what you put into it, well I have put plenty of effort into it and can say that I don't want to learn incorrect and confusing material. Put two people next to each other of equal standing who have both studied the same subject, can you say that they will have the same results? no. It depends to a large extent on the tutors and the study material. Is it a coincidence that the LGU is rated as one of the 5 worst universities in the country?(I wish I found that out before I started). Granted, people will pass from there and it is mostly because of there own determination. (Sorry to the LGU tutors as you are mostly good tutors, but the notes really do suck - atleast you are doing something about it.)
It does seem that the minute someone writes a bad word about somewhere, everyone else knocks it down. Maybe that is why no one hears bad words about a place.
Well, at the end of the day we all have to make a decision that is right for us as an individual and we weigh up the pros and cons of a place.
Good luck to all those waiting to pass and those starting on courses and those waiting for jobs and those training in the air.... Perhaps one day we'll all be in the left seat!
JD

[iainpoll]

Good post TMOH, lots of valid points.

Good luck to you mate!:)

[Laurie Benn]

Several of the points made about LGU courses and notes in some of the mailings in this thread are misleading and several out of date.

1. Based on CAA data our results are at least as good as the national average. Many subjects are better and in some our LOWEST mark is better than the national average.

2. Our course notes are "wordy" because they cover ALL of the learning objectives in enough detail to enable many of our distance learning students to have gained first time passes. The notes are currently undergoing a complete re-vamp and the complete set should be available in glorious colour by February 2003. The "wordy" content still covers the full syllabus but there are many more colour diagrams. Some are available now if any PPruner would like to come and look at them.

3. LGU did take 30 students on our courses in September and November 2001, specifically authorised and approved by the CAA, to help out ex PPSC, SFT and 4 Forces students who had been 'left in the lurch' when those schools closed. Otherwise we have always operated strictly within JAA limits.

4. Like most other FTOs we keep our feedback as up to date as possible and add vetted questions to our web-based student support system, which is open to all full-time and distance learning students.

5. All our instructors have extensive commercial or military aviation backgrounds. Between us we have over 60,000 flying hours.

[Ray Ban]

I started my ATPLs at LGU in January 2001. When I was there, problems existed with the notes and some of the feedback but overall I was quite happy with the training and support I was given. Towards the end of my course, the feedback did improve and the staff were friendly and always willing to help out. I managed to pass 12 exams first time and the remaining 2 on my next sitting. Admittedly, a fairly large number of my class either didn't finish on time or gave up BUT that was more the individual's fault than the school. Most of them wanted to be spoon fed information or expected their foreign licences to bail them out of trouble or simply struggled with the material. Some of them kept moaning about the ambiguous nature of the questions or the irrelevance of the subject material, often disrupting the class in the process. :mad: I and others on the course knew where they were coming from but instead of bucking the system we knuckled down and beat it.

Would I go to LGU again? Quite possibly yes!

[David Balchin]

(sorry this is off the subject abit but that’s just the way it goes)

Re: London Guildhall Univ.
I am on their Distance course, and can back up most of what Mr Benn said, (not that he knows I'm posting here, he is the head of aviation studies at LGU but I've yet to meet him so don't get the wrong idea)
May I explain a couple of points;
Firstly my reasons for joining LGU Distance course:
1/ I live close by,
2/ I did my degree there (different Dept.),
But most importantly I knew that as part of a large Est. THEY DON'T GO TO THE WALL like most of the others!
:(
Now I saw a mate who is at BGS the other day and was asked to help him to understand his notes, now compared to mine they were nicely printed on nicer paper (I have the older LGU notes)
But... what I saw didn’t impress me that much as the BGS notes were written by somebody who knew what they were talking about but had no idea how to explain it to anybody else!...very bad communication skills :mad: This may account for the reason why LGU notes are as several of you put it 'Wordy' too wordy in places for me but maybe not for others. I was able to help my friend using the BGS notes (it was a nav subject that I have yet to do myself) but only after reading thro. them several
Times :confused: :confused: and having a good laugh at the wording in the process! I think teaching is an art, a skill in it's own right.
Now don't just ask the lecturers because they always 'slag-off' each other's notes, ask to see the notes and see how long it takes to make sense out of them before you part with your money.

[Soggy]

If I were you I would shop around.
Exactly what does your 25K cover????
Find out and compare!!!
I have NEVER heard of this company, business/ etc...
Has anyone else???
Watch out for fly by nights!! there are loads!!!

[GonvilleBromhead]

David Balchin,

I do not wish to start a LGU/BGS/ (or any other school for that matter) bunfight, but to infer that the BGS notes are somehow inferior (the angry face symbol) I feel is harsh.

I can not comment on LGU's material but as reputation has it, a fine organisation. I can however compare BGS notes to other schools', and even by taking a completey stand-alone view of the BGS material, it is my personal view that the material is written in a "friendly" style, making some very dry material quite easily learnable.

Worked for me, first time passes in all 14.

As I said above, please do not (anyone) turn this into a nit-picking "my school is better than yours" argument, all establishments of good reputation will provide the relevant material in a decent format to get you through, however I do sometimes read posts on here about which school will be best to get you through the exams, almost as if that is a magic formula.

The thing that gets any of us through is, yes good material, but more importantly, sheer hard work on the students part regardless of school.

all the best,

Gb.