'89 Popularity

[Tool Time Two]

Interesting to note, that the number of hits on Meloz and '89 scored 13714 hits, and the next highest was the Hamilton Island accident was not much more than half at 7800 odd.:cool:

[Wiley]

TTT, I think the interest could be explained to a large degree by a combination of "Lest we forget" and [i]"Wish they'd Forget".

[Wizofoz]

Also interesting to note that, whilst the opinions of those directly involved are obviously pretty polarised, posts from those not involved (or at least CLAIMING not to be involved!) were pretty evenly divided, and most had a "Get over it guys" kinda ring to them.

If the actions of the post '89 pilots were so totally reprehensible as the pre '89 would make out, wouldn't you expect more general condemnation from the "Unbiased" observers?

Of course the general response from TTT, Kap M, Amos etc. was basically "If you don't agree with me you don't know what you're talking about!!", and "If you weren’t there, you're opinion is irrelevant!!" (Of course, dissenting opinions from those who WERE there were dismissed as vehemently).Bit like discussing religion with a rabid fundamentalist.... "There is only one truth..MINE!!!"

I just LOVED Kap Ms line..."The scabs earned 260-285 thousand, and from that I'm not budging!!!"

In other words "This is my truth, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will shake it!!!"

So it all got hashed over again, the wounds stay open, no-one is persuaded either way.....

I think I'll go play Internet cards; it's probably a more productive pass time!!

[ironbutt57]

Just shows you what a bitter lot the '89-ers are doesn't it??!

[CitizenXX]

TTT,

Your deep analytical mind did not look sufficiently far.

Sure, Meloz had 13714 hits, and the HM accident 7814, but the Meloz thread has been running for 15+ days, and the HM accident for only 5+ days, so one would have to conclude that there has been more interest in the accident thread. Of course, that interest may not be sustained for 15 days, so Meloz may yet come out in front. But for interest over the past 5 days, the accident is well in front. In fact, statistically, it has had about 60% more interest!

Interest based on number of posts is very close, however, with a slightly greater number on the 89 thread. 166 for '89, and 51 for the accident in a third of the time.

There is one thing that can be guaranteed, however, and that is that the HM accident will not still be under serious analysis by expat pilots in another 13+ years.

Wizofoz,

One would have to say with the attitude of KM, he would be a dangerous man to have up front. Not willing to evaluate factual information that is in conflict with what he previously believed, and accept it when validated, is not a good quality for a pilot.

I know, I know, you can NEVER believe a scab. But, non scabs, those who stood firm in the face of great adversity and were led to the slaughter by the AFAP, and remain friends even though their paths in life have taken different directions, have posted here confirming AN pay rates post 89. These people, solid citizens, the salt of the earth, because they stood firm, are people of substance and are to be believed. They are among your number, but not abusive. They accept they were deceived by the AFAP, don't like it but accept it, and are getting on with life.

Not being receptive to information would be like a flt att coming in and saying, 'Captain, the right engine is on fire,' and him saying 'The instruments don't show it, and I don't hear a fire bell. Get me another coffee, dear, and don't involve yourself in mens' business.'

Now before you guys jump in and attempt crucifixion, I wouldn't suggest firing the bottle either, but I would suggest most urgent further investigation to establish the exact position.

The total number of views of the Meloz site would be easily explained. The likes of TTT, Amos with his mythical can of powder, and several others, would be there a hundred times a day looking for someone else who contradicted their 'factual' version of events so they could heap more abuse on the poor soul. I also suggest that the bulk of the posts would be from a small number of the so-called 89ers. I thought they were a baseball or basketball team in the US; or are they 49ers; or are the 49ers the CX guys who were sacked?

It's all getting to be too much. I may get stuck into the cards as well.

[Tool Time Two]

CitizenXXXXXX
The only deception by the AFAP exists in your defensive imagination.
And pleased to see you accept your position on the planet as that of a scab.:cool:

[Hugh Jarse]

Well TTT, the AFAP aren't doing too well with their major clients at the moment. That being the pilot groups of Virgin Blue and Eastern Australia Airlines.

They need to move into the modern era and listen to their customers (yes, customers) wants and needs. Otherwise they are doomed to the scrap heap. The ALAEA (Engineers) is now finding this out with many of it's long-term members choosing more effective representation.

CitizenXX: You have a refreshing and more realistic insight of the general perception of TODAY :)

[CitizenXX]

Hugh,

I do receive quite a bit of complimentary mail via the private message service, and thank you for yours here.

You're quite right about the AFAP and major customers. It seems to me that they dropped the ball in early 89, and have been on the back foot ever since. One would have to say that if they're representing VB and the best they can do is half what the opposition is paying, then they're not doing their job.

I know, they're a low cost airline - BUT, they are not low fares. Look at the websites daily, and it's touch and go who is the most expensive on any day - sometimes it's QF, and sometimes it's VB. So, they screw their employees on incomes on the pretense that they are doing it to offer lower fares, but in fact, their fares are no lower than the opposition who pay double the salaries. Who wins here? Nobody but Branson and Godfrey!

It's a con that the AFAP hasn't managed to see through yet, and I wonder if they ever will.

What I say about TTT obviously is true and hits a raw nerve with him. Note his contribution above. I posted, pointing out the statistics involved with his initial post on 89 vs accident. Nothing inflammatory, defamatory, or even suggesting he was a ********, but back he comes full of venom with the same old stuff. You are a scab; but this time he didn't say that Hawke and Abeles are/were criminals, and that's a huge change.

No mention is made of the guts of the post, and that was a comparison between numbers of posts for different threads. Interesting insight into the mind of TTT though.

[Kaptin M]

The weather on the Gold Coast is actually quite enjoyable! :cool:


Amazing the people one runs into in Surfers'....those that suddenly duck into the nearest opening...and the others who invite you back for a bbq at their ranchSee ya!

BTW, how's the SQ application going, CIX? :D
p.s. Don't bother replying because (a) I already know the answer :)
and (b) I don't plan on turning my computer on again any time soon! :)

[Tool Time Two]

CitizenXXXXXXX - the only raw nerve is my mirth, when I note that only 89er's are the abusive posters. So say you and other scabs.
One of the most fascinating things about you and your colleagues, is that you all went along with the AFAP leadership from at least February 1989, even resigned, and suddenly have been hit with the holy blinding light that, according to you, the AFAP was all bad.
Even the three year old down the road laughs about that one.
:cool:

[ironbutt57]

The avid union supporters in general on the Pprune are usually the first ones with the name calling when opposing viewpoints are posted by those whose opinions are different....scab...certainly be used improperly both here, and on Fragrant harbour in regards to the recruitment ban....since scab is an improper term in both situations....so keep on with the name calling, and bitterness, and find your mates on the beach, go to your barbies and whine together...I would duck into a corner or dunny if I saw the likes of your lot trapseing down the beach as well.....don't want to spoil a perfectly good day at the beach listening to whining and moaning about something that happened 13 years ago...'bout now right? :D :D :cool:

[CitizenXX]

I presume that CIX is addressing me since I am th eonly one who has mentioned SQ applications here.

Kap M is a man of many hats. It seems he has a direct line to SQ Flt Dept. He knows the answer on my start date and base. Curious, since I haven't yet been advised. I do know that I'm acceptable though, because I have been accepted.

Perhaps you could lose the Americanism next time round Kap M. 'Any time soon' is the same as 'in the near future.'

[Pole Vaulter]

CitizenX,

If you had not noticed KM is a legend in his own mind. He thinks his mates in SQ know all the good gos but unfortunately many are just goading him to see just how much trash he can spread and he still has not worked it out.. Look at the majority of his predictions. Nearly all make believe stuff. As I said "A Legend In His Own Mind"

[Thumbs up]

Carn't help it.

I'm sitting here visualising tool time two bailing up some three year old,

Now listen hear........dispute....bla bla bla.....scabs......bla bla bla......AFAP......SCABS.......BLA BLA BLA.

So tool time was his laugh one of sincerity,or do you think he was taking the p!ss out of you.

[waterops]

kid probably signed up the whole sandpit to the AFAP with a spiel like TTT's...... why wouldn't you join???

No such thing as too young for unionism.

[CitizenXX]

Yes, Pole Vaulter, KM makes an assumption on my identity, and he is wrong. He's guessing, and whether he has 'friends' in SQ or not is irrelevant. I'll reveal why he's wrong in a future post.

Thumbs Up & Water Ops, Good stuff!! Most amusing.

[ironbutt57]

Allright here it comes.....Kaptin M is a jackass;) ;) :D :)

[FiveTanks?]

Dear Citizen xx

If you invested your super wisely (from 89) you'd be sitting pretty wouldnt you?

[CitizenXX]

Yes.

Yet another naive attempt to establish my identity - if I had sufficient to invest wisely, then it would put a certain vintage on me, wouldn't it? Or would it??

Ironbutt,

You just realized that??

[Slasher]

I dont say much about 89 here anymore as Im convinced the Great Australian Unwashed have such short memorys theyll repeat history over and over and over again without ever learning a damn thing, wether its to do with aviation, industrial relations, politics, or socialism. In Oz aviation the proof is in the "activitys" of the last 13 years, most of which results wouldve been totaly avoidable if the lessons of 89 hadve been learnt.

[fugitive]

I do know one thing and that is ,aviation in Australia has been put back to pre 1966 days.
The AFAP has been effectively destroyed as a pilots union and that flying is no longer an attractive career in Aus.
The main players have made their profits and now departed.
There may have been many things that needed fixing,but that is same for most of our way of doing things down here.
The AFAP helped build a safe ,good career structure ,from GA through to the domestic and international scene.
Today,aviation is a shambles and to listen to those people who stole jobs during an industrial dispute,makes me want to thow up.
They try to justify what they did;well now having helped destroy what was once a great way of life,they should pull their heads in,because everyone lost at the end of the day,especially aviation.

[divingduck]

This fiasco just won't go away will it? Just as someone said until the last one has died....very very sad.

The pilots union were the first target in the crackdown on the unions in Oz...easy targets, and they played right into the hands of their protagonists by resigning...yes I have heard all about the fact that it was necessary yada yada yada..

The fact is that unionism had had it's day, collectively holding a gun to the head of the employer was a 60's tactic and was ripe for a change.

Others have said it far better than I can....move on, bearing a grudge and hatred for others is not the way ahead...have a look at the mess in the middle east, india/pakistan, and the recent horrors in Bali.
Puts this miserable little footnote in history into the category that it belongs.

Someone else said also that if the pilots had stood together that it would have all worked out nicely...what absolute rubbish. If you had all stuck together there would have been 1500 or so looking for work elsewhere not just 1300...you challenge the government of the day (regardless of it's reasons) you will lose, simple really.
Then I suppose, you would have all sat hunched over coffees all over the world and bitched about someone else occupying your God given birthright..ie a seat up the front of an aircraft.

enough already..........

[amos2]

....booorring!...

[CitizenXX]

diving duck,

How true.

Whilst I agree with fugitive that the AFAP did some good work; tech committee etc, they also continued with an old tactic that was a proven failure with Maggie Thatcher some years prior. Don't hold a gun to the head of the PM!! Thuggery doesn't work, nor can it be allowed to work.

Take on town hall, and you're a goner. I don't mean local govt town hall, I mean the Federal Government town hall.

If you want to fight with the big dogs, you have to be able to pi$$ in the tall grass. The AFAP couldn't. All they could do was pi$$ up $12M or thereabouts on a lost cause continuing to flog a dead horse so that they didn't look so stupid, or more stupid, trying to convince the members that the cause wasn't dead.

It was dead from the minute we resigned because the tactic was to serve the resignations on the company the next day, regardless of what the members were told the previous evening.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

diving duck you are incorrectSomeone else said also that if the pilots had stood together that it would have all worked out nicely...what absolute rubbish. If you had all stuck together there would have been 1500 or so looking for work there only would have been 1000 or so looking for work because 500 had already found work overseas.

[divingduck]

Amos, never a truer word was spoken....and boring just about sums up the 89 threads over the past few years.

TSI...concur, how stupid of me not to have been able to count;)

To think that Aussies have the gall to call Poms whingers....

[amos2]

...I was referring to you, actually!... ;)

[CitizenXX]

divingduck,

You may not be a duck after all. Perhaps you're a goose! Such a silly error. You see what happens when the 89ers don't agree with your impeccable logic - tip a bucket of $hit on you. Very poor form, but the only form they have, unfortunately.

But, TSI is right. 500 of the solid citizens had already deserted their 'mates' here fighting the good fight, and bolted overseas to get the plum jobs first. They showed great consideration and supported the cause - the lost cause.

Their bolting early in the fight showed what they thought of the AFAP's chances. Zero, zip, zilch, sweet fanny adams, or whatever you call 'zero'.

Maybe the AFAP were all gooses, or is that geese? Maybe we were geese/gooses for resigning.

[Spad]

Chheeeezas, CitX, you can’t have it both ways. One minute you’re prattling on about those dastardly 89ers who went overseas ‘stealing’ the jobs of local FOs and mouthing off to all and sundry about how they were going to take back their old jobs the moment the Union fixed the problem at home, and now they left Oz ‘early’ because they had no faith in the Union.

I think you’ve just got to face the fact that you are what even you know you are and no amount of re-writing of history or rationalisation is ever going to change the fact. The fact that ‘only’ around 50% of those who were not involved think you are what you are is mute testimony that most people don’t read beyond the headline and the first paragraph of a news article that doesn’t affect them personally. Accepting that last statement as a fact, you and your kind should be seriously concerned that the other ‘around 50%’ of people who weren’t involved know you all for what you are.

Now, to your elusive ID: any chance of first name shared with a famous Aussie sportsman surname Border and you share a surname with a much-married English-born American Hollywood actress who starred in everything from ‘National Velvet’ to ‘Cleopatra’?

[meeko]

Here we go again.
The great guessing game of 89

I 'll play Spad


Are you by any chance a certain F50 captain who made enquires to come back but when you couldn't get a 737 command you joined Qantas circa 19 Jan 90.
You must have really stood by your mates while you completed the QF appilcation form. So as a GA pilot who choose not to join but is now junior to you at QF I have a bit of a problem with your higher than mighty attitude.
By the way does your first name sound like fern and a surname as in Port Phillip XXX s big XXX ?
Please dont assume I am passing any judgement on what you did.You did what was right for you but move on .

Are we having fun yet.

[CitizenXX]

Spad,

You're too clever, but I'm not about to admit, or deny for that matter, the identity that you put on me. You may be warm, hot, or even stone cold.

The two claims that your 'brothers' rushed off overseas because they had no faith in the union, and that they told local FOs that they were only there thill 'their' jobs again were available are, in fact, consistent.

I NEVER suggested that the union was going to get their jobs back, because it had clearly advanced to a position well beyond that when the resignations were submitted, but they thought that the Australian system couldn't do without them, and the companies would come running after the 'best pilots in the world' to come back and save Oz aviation. How wrong they were. They may have thought that the union would get their jobs back, but not for a second did I think that.

Simultaneously, they were stepping over their 'mates' to pick the eyes out of the available jobs. How is that differen from what you perceive happened here after we RESIGNED?

We know a few who rushed back to Tattslotto agencies etc because they couldn't cut it in other's systems, or pass the ground school etc. One had stood up at an AFAP rally, and announced to all that he was a millionaire, and that he had an offer from SQ, and he was considering whether to take it or not. Well, he may as well not have, because he was back in a month.

As for justifying what I did, and what I am, I make no apologies to you or anybody else. We resigned; jobs were advertised and I took one. End of story.

Meeko, I thought similarly.

[Tool Time Two]

Your pride in being a scab, CitizenXXXXXXXXXXXX, fails to impress, when it is clearly a false pride.
Your attacks on all members of the AFAP who either led it, or were not prepared to associate themselves with scumbags like the now deceased Abeles, as you did, adequately demonstrates your shaky hold on that pride.
The question will always remain, if you were so insulted by the speech of the person whom you say claimed to be rather rich, AND you did not think the AFAP was doing the right thing, why did you not take action to amend the course, which was available to you?
Oh yes - you will claim you did - took your life into your own hands and scabbed. Right.
But you resigned or were fired by a writ like everyone else (except the golden scabs of course), so you had a bunch of colleagues in the same boat, why not take them with you?
Nope! Those scab contracts glittered didn't they, and the only way you could get your hands on that money was to turn your back on them.
That, by any definition, is the lowest act, and you, as I have said before, have to live with it - for the remainder of your low life. Oh dear, I've done it again - abuse. :cool:

[CitizenXX]

TTT,

You've really got me by the short and curlies. It is false pride, just as you say. You're right - again. You're always right.

The contracts did glitter, and I fell for it. I fell for that old as time human failing called greed. I'm a greedy person, and when I went back, I thought 'this will really screw those guys who are going to go through life bitter and twisted, and go on to call themselves such imaginitive names as Spad, TTT, Amos 2, Kaptin M, Slasher, etc.'

I was really so far ahead of the game to know that you would F... up your lives with hatred and bitterness towards me.

And do you think I give a $hit? Like hell I do. Just as I did, you had a choice, but yours was the wrong one, following the AFAP down the path to oblivion. What a shame. How do I know it was wrong? Well, you wouldn't still be carping and whining about it 13+ years later if you considered it the right one.

It's been pointed out previously by others that the term 'scab' doesn't apply because there was no industrial dispute after the resignations. But it doesn't matter, because even if you called me a F..... C.... it would still be water off a duck's back. Name calling belongs in pre primary school, and of course, with you guys. Very silly.

And TTT, you really have to do two things for me, your brother in aviation. You have to get the X's right. You've given me between one and ten, but I know you can do it if you put your mind to it. It's two Xs - XX. Very simple really children.

And secondly, you have to take an anger management course. A few sessions with a shrink may well do you the world of good, and get that abuse under control.

[Wizofoz]

TTT

A question I asked earlier....

You claim you were "Not prepared to associate with scumbabs like Ables".

Does that mean if the AFAP had won the dispute, you would have turned down the chance to work for PA again?

Or did he only become a scumbag when you lost...

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

wizofoz you won't get an answer from TTT on that question. it is far too difficult.... you have asked the question of the century and he can't answer it because if it is answered in the affirmative then the returnees were justified to get their own jobs back and stuff abeles. if answered in the negative then it's another example of AFAP hypocrisy and lies.
in short Wiz, you have TTT over the proverbial barrel!

[amos2]

...this snake oil that you cretins drink...where do you get it from? :cool:

[Wizofoz]

amos2,

Thank you for your intelligent and informative post. This has cleared the issue up no end. Anyone who does not agree with you has something wrong with them...

Got it...

[amos2]

...or is it jungle juice? :cool:

[Keg]

Amazing how all sides of this are so amazingly predictable. It's getting old from both sides now! I don't mind hearing the respective debates with whatever 'slant' people put on them- I can make up my own mind from their- but this back and forward crap is just that- CRAP!!

Someone may well reply with 'don't like it, don't read it' but I like to actually try and educate myself along the way which is difficult when BOTH SIDES continually go on with the name calling.

Professional, oh really!?!?! My three year old shows greater respect for others.

[CitizenXX]

Keg,

You've offended me. I never offer abuse to any person who posts here, nor do I involve myself in infantile name calling. I do agree that it is boring, but what else can I do? Let these guys have it all their own ways?

Your three old would enjoy talking with TTT. He said in a recent post that even the 3 yo down the street could see a certain point he was making. Perhaps it was she, and he may even signed her up for AFAP membership by now.

[amos2]

...yeah! and you've offended me too Keg!...calling a jerk a jerk ain't offensive...it's simply calling it as it is!!
;)

[Wizofoz]

amos2,

You're a jerk!!!

Hey...You're right!!!

[Tool Time Two]

Wozifoz
You would be disappointed, no doubt, if I did not respond to your post.
The fact is that the late Abeles was indeed a scumbag, (one of Keating’s favourite parliamentary terms), before he became involved with Ansett in 1979.
Your friend Abeles exuded that famous charm for which he was noted, before he struck at his victim.
Like many of my fellow pilots, I was there well before he came on the scene, and viewed his exhibition of that famous charm when he ordered the B767/B737/B727LR, and announced it at a press conference, which off duty pilots were invited to attend.
The old “feel good” dynamics trick.
There is a significant difference between the resolution of the dispute under the normal processes of industrial action, through negotiation and return to work, and the acquiescence of the likes of the scabs.
So in that process, all of us would have returned to work for the company irrespective of how we felt about Abeles.
But to scab, as you must have done, is an entirely different matter, and required you to actually desert your colleagues and become the low standard of matter most of us walk around. (Oh dear - abuse again).
There were a number of Ansett employees who didn’t particularly take to RM either, but they still worked for the company.
Old CitXXXXXXXX and TSISISISI help you row that ever so slowly sinking boat, and provide a never ending stream of entertainment for those of us who have watched you slide into the mire of self righteousness, claiming you “did it for yourself”.
You don’t need to explain that, for in scabbing, it is self evident.
:cool: