Easy Airbus or Boeing?

[Buster the Bear]

Airbus ups ante in battle for easyJet order

Airbus has offered easyJet a range of price concessions in a bid to beat Boeing to the airline’s £4bn aircraft order, reports the Times.
easyJet has asked both Airbus and Boeing to tender for 120 firm aircraft orders plus a further 120 options. To date easyJet, in common with many budget carriers, has chosen to use a single aircraft type, the Boeing 737, to keep costs down.
However, in an attempt to persuade easyJet to operate a mixed fleet, Airbus has told the airline it will cover the cost of some spares, training and other charges associated with duplicating operations.
easyJet CE, Ray Webster, said the concessions made the Airbus A319 package cheaper than Boeing’s 737-700. ‘The equation is, Boeing at a higher price versus Airbus for a better price and a higher risk,’ the Times quotes him.
The list price of 120 Boeing 737s is around $6.6bn, but given current market conditions airlines have recently been able to negotiate discounts with the US manufacturer.
According to the Times, many industry observers believe Boeing will be the likely winner because easyJet does not at the moment need the added complications of operating a mixed fleet.
In the summer, the airline was forced to cancel a number of flights following the introduction of an unsatisfactory new roster system, which resulted in crews being in the wrong place.
easyJet is also currently in negotiations with British Airways to buy its German low-cost arm, Deutsche BA, itself an all-Boeing 737 operator. ‘easyJet has enough on its plate at the moment,’ one analyst told the Times.

[Tibesti 3415]

When are the first of these new aircrafts to enter,and when is
the final words said, this year or...???

[JB007]

I agree with the "analyst".....

I'm amazed they are even thinking about a different aircraft type on their AOC at the moment....

While trying to absorb Go into the equasion by December, move property and still going ahead with easyJet Germany...

It'll be years before things settle down....

[What_does_this_button_do?]

Was this a public attempt to get Boeing to make a better offer?

[outofsynch]

I reckon w.d.t.b.d. has it in one!

But Airbus cant afford to let this one pass, and I'll put money on it that there is an Airbus order soon. Deliveries wont be for a month or 12, so the Go aquisition will be history by then.

And rumour has it that type change will commence with GVA base which isnt involved in aquisition anyway.

[fiftyfour]

Easyjet only asked Airbus to quote,in order to get a better deal from Boeing.
Airbus knows that Boeing is struggling for orders at any price, due to stagnation in US airlines in particular. If Airbus keep lowering the price( because they know easyjet will eventually choose boeing for all the obvious commonality/transition reasons), then boeing will lose serious money over the next 10 years on this order. This will put Airbus at a long term financial(and therefore ultimately a competetive) advantage against its rival.
Easy.
The breakneck speed of easyjet expansion might well end in tears (remember Air Europe and others). Boeing will be left with the residual order on its books. Another win for Airbus.
Easy again.

[The Sweeney]

What would be quite amusing is for Airbus to make a low quote and promise what they do and then Boeing tell Easy that they're walking away from the table and thus leaving Airbus holding the baby that won't yeald any profit whatsoever and leave them up the creek without the paddle.

[Hand Solo]

But then Airbus would simply cover the loss by hiking up prices on the A330/340/380, just like Boeing used to do on the 744. Problem now is there aren't many people ordering 744s anymore, especially as it's been eclipsed by the A380.

[Rwy in Sight]

Some companies like to have one major and one minor supplier. They used the second one to obtain better deals from the first but also they like to have some alternates available.

Easy might earn some advantage from developing a second base, Airbus only, at AI expenses. In that way EZ have a second type in its fleet and is not overdependent on a grounding of the 737. Remember the rudder problems..(Please no A vs B war)

Additionnaly it accumulates Airbus experience and would be more able to take additonal Airbus at a later time if the 737NG fails to perform in the future.

AI wins because it buys a foothold on the low cost segments.


Rwy in Sight

[King Kee]

The debate and negotiations are genuine.....not simply driving the Boeing price down.

With the size of the fleet, both aircraft types (if eJ go for Airbus) would easily be big enough to offer many of the economies of scale. Once a crew / aircraft base is 'mature' then the loss of flexibility is not huge, especially when compared with the extremely competitive quotes from both suppliers for any future orders as well.

And has anyone ever considered that eJ have done a very comprehensive study.....what if they have identified the Airbus as the better of the two? Now's the time to start dealing with Airbus.

It's an open contest.

[Lavdumperer]

Airbus already has a toe-hold in the low-cost sector - Jetblue in the States. Jetblue has 150+ orders for the A320 and has done exceedingly well. I am sure Stelios and Webster have taken notice of Jetblue and their positive customer experience. Given the choice, most customers would prefer flying on an A320 vs. a cramped 737NG.

As for the pilots, the Airbus has a more ergonomic flight deck - it is more advanced and more comfortable. Plus, the side-stick reminds one of flying the F-18 Hornet - it's more advanced than the rebuilt 737.


I hope you Easy/Go pilots get the chance to fly the Airbus - you'll never want to go back to the traditional yoke...


Cheers

[Bigpants]

It has been said before and denied by Easy but if they do have aspirations to some form of longer haul then the A320 makes sense in that the crews could operate an A330 on routes like Gatwick or Stansted to Orlando etc.

I fly the A320 and consider it a good tool for the job but can't see the logic of splitting fleets just to remain in shorthaul around Europe. Either Easy has a strategy for something or it is a ploy to get a better deal from Boeing.

[Hugh Jorgen]

Why worry? Anybody out there seriously think Easy will be there in 2 years?

[GustyOrange]

HJ,

£100 says Easy won't go bust in the next 2 years !!!

:D :D :D

[Racing Snake]

I think there will be ONLY easy jet and equivalent in the next 3 years!!

[Hugh Jorgen]

Hugely over-rated sell off on the stock market, hugely ambitious take over of main rival, CEO clears off and crewing department in meltdown........Mmmmmmmm
I sincerely hope it dosen't happen, history would tell a different story.

[Flap 5]

Can't see easyJet going down the Airbus route. I know the chief pilot is very pro Boeing. They seem to think that the 737 is better for quick turnrounds with little ground support. They point to the lower cargo hold for easier access if loading equipment is not available and the airstairs if pax steps are not available, amongst others.

Having several thousand hours on 737's and A320's I don't agree. The A320 is great for quick turnrounds.

As far as Stelios leaving that has something to do with his shipping company having legal problems with Italy. With Go flying to Italy (easyJet do not) they may get future legal problems if Stelios stays too close to the company.

[no sig]

Hugh

'hugely ambitious take over of main rival' ? clearly you aren't very close to these matters with a statement like that . As mergers go its as straight forward as it gets.

[ojay]

no sig

How does a £374(?) k buy-out get re-invented as a 'merger?'
I am happy to integrate fully with go colleagues but I feel we are in the presence of new-labour style spin!

Airbus or Boeing?(the original question) Does anyone know when or where ?

b/rgds

[mjenkinsblackdog]

no sig,
If its straight forward.Please explain why the managers got 10 million for this process ,and also why BALPA and management have taken months of discussions.
Finally why Go sops are being incorporated when EASYJET has bought Go.
Hardly straight forward.
:cool:

[acbus1]

BALPA have taken many months discussing many things with many managements over many years.

That does'nt mean that it's been always necessary ( or achieved anything ) !

[NorthernSky]

(i) The vibes I get from 'orange' chums is that it should have been a buy-out, it's been spun as a merger, and it is playing out to be a reverse take-over.

(ii) Flap 5 may be correct about the CP - but will (should) he have any say? He's a deliverer, not a policy-maker.

(iii) Flap 5 is wrong about the cargo holds. The NG hold is too high for manual loading without a belt-loader, just like the 'bus.

(iv) Take a look at the share prices over the last few months. (The LSE Share Monitoring Service is a good source). easyJet is sliding downwards a lot closer to BA than to Ryanair, whose price is as stable as one would expect.

(v) The 'Italian difficulty' is over and done with, and made fascinating reading in the Italian press as it unfolded. There's no problem there, and this has nothing to do with Stelios' departure.

(vi) The commercial and political advantages of operating the 'bus are significant. But will 'the management' see the wood for the trees?

[f/spninx]

Northernsky
I was in GLA recently on a 700 and there was no belt loader. Truck pulls up , stand on truck throw bags in.
Not trying to be awkward just adding to the debate.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

northern sky,
Now with over 60 boeings and the possibility of more with DBA.
Its highly unlikely to swap to Airbus at this stage.
Plus when I was based in the Middle east they were falling appart continuously {build Quality was poor}.
Stick with boeing seems to have worked for Southwest .
Easyjet should do the same.:cool:

[brabazon]

It's not such a no-brainer as people think.

easyJet will have done a very detailed economic comparison and as Ray Webster mentioned the Airbus has a risk element, but if the price is right they will go for it. They effectively operate 2 types already the 737-300 and -700 - the commonality in spares isn't as great as people think. Also with the development of new bases, easyJet could have ones dedicated to the 737-700 and others to the A319. So while the Chief Pilot may be a Boeing man, the decision will be based on financial numbers.

Also, the A320 family is already used by other low-cost airlines, eg. JetBlue (A320s); GermanWings (Eurowings's A319s); GoodJet (A320s) and don't forget the charter airlines (Monarch etc with the A321). The charter airlines were and still are low-cost airlines.

[Torquelink]

As Lavdumperer said, from a pax perspective, the A319/320 is a much more comfortable aircraft than the 737 with wider seats/aisle etc and, these days, pax are more type-aware. Flying A319s would give Easy a significant marketing product differentiator with which to beat RyanAir etc over the head. Also while fleet transtion is a pain it doesn't last for ever and, in the overall scheme of things, won't be a major consideration - especially if Airbus a picking up the tab.

[Flap 5]

As I said I think the A319/A320 would be better, but I don't think easyJet will think so.

The CP does have a significant input, although he may be out voted.

The cargo hold is lower on the 737 and can be loaded from the back of a truck (thanks f/spninx). I have jumped in to the forward hold many times to retrieve my and other crew bags - couldn't do that on the A320.

The 737 has airstairs, although easy don't like to use them if pax steps are available.

Whether the 'Italian difficulty' is over or not is a risk they may not be willing to take. The Italians do things their own way.

[Lord Fulmer]

"Finally why Go sops are being incorporated when EASYJET has bought Go."


New GO SOP's and procedures ???? We at GO are still trying to work out where all this new stuff has come from .

It sure as hell, wasn't Stansted.

[Commando]

MK in the States at the moment - any significance?

[NorthernSky]

f/spninx,

Yes, it can be done like this, but not efficiently.

Flap 5,

The 'bus is available with stairs. And if you think that the Italians do things their own way, you should see the French ...and the Germans ...and the British ...and anyone else involved in building the European aircraft!

Nothing to do with me, but it would be nice to see a 'low cost' airline committing to 'high quality' equipment, which the Boeing (for all its Friday afternoon rough-and-ruggedness) most definitely is not.

[In trim]

Turnround time for a bulk-loaded A319 would be no more than the 737-700. Possibly marginally less with passenger boarding aided by wider aisles and larger overhead lockers.

The study has been extremely comprehensive and scientific, taking into account all elements such as rostering complexity within a scoring system. Thus any one person such as the CP, whilst extremely involved in the study, will not really be involved in the final board decision.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Apparently there was a baggage handlers ballot yesterday.
Anyone know the outcome yet.:cool:

[King Kee]

Outcome was inconclusive.

38'ish voted to reject offer.
30'ish voted to accept.
40'ish didn't bother voting.

Union discussions ongoing.

[jumpseater]

Are the baggage handlers deciding which aircraft we have then? :p

[Buster the Bear]

So back to the orginal post!

Airbus or Boeing?

Decision should have been made ages ago, what is the hold up? Must be money eh? Who can give a gut busting deal? I see Ryanair are being offered 'extra white tailed' 800's for a song from the manufacturer. Loads of built and ordered, but not wanted airframes on offer allegedy?

I see GermanWings will not be using one of thier A319's for the launch of "Low cost", but using one of thier partners A320's from Cologne. (Lufty).

Is this to compete with Air Berlin 737-800's? They seem to be in and out of Stansted rather regularly. Or Ryanair 800's into Hahn?

[Fil]

Further on the loading issue a dispatcher at LHR told me that with not more than about 85 passengers worth of bags it is possible to load them entirely in one of the holds on a 319 meaning you can use one hold for outbound and the other for inbound which in turn means that the inbound and outbound baggage can be loaded/unloaded simultaneously, effectively halving the time required.

Systems falls down when the baggage weight beomes too great though.

[outofsynch]

never seen the boeing loaded/unloaded like that anyway.
Irrelevant to the decision.....

As for belt loaders, the majority of handlers use them for the 737 anyway for OSH requirements

[Denti]

Germanwings has already painted three of their A319 in Germanwings colos, so they use the A319 for the lowcost-thingy. They use additionaly one A320 as well, afaik leased from lufthansa.

[thegypsy]

Its official A320 As I am both 737 and A320 Rated I wonder if I will ever get an invitation to an interview rather than the Easyjet circulars from Joyce???

[FlapsOne]

Not a chance.;)