View Full Version : Lufthansa Cockpit doors open for flight!

1st Oct 2002, 14:08
Having just looked through some pics on www.airliners.net i'm still amazed that loads of pictures of the flight decks taken by pax are still appearing.... what even more surprising is this.... :

Lufthansa (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/278673/L/)

I find it pathetic.... what are these pilots trying to prove?? I would hate to fly along and be looked at picking my teeth and scratching away!

Surely after 9/11 lessons must learnt.

1st Oct 2002, 14:49
Mooney, for Gods sake GROW UP.

You don't know WHY the door was open, do you? Maybe coffee for the crew, or maybe a "physiological break" (both of which are permitted by our own CAA).

Oh, and guess what... all the Sept 11 aircraft had locked doors as a matter of SOP. Didn't stop the subsequent events, did it?

Back when you were in nappies, the rest of us were only too happy to keep our cockpit doors open (especially on small turboprops). The passengers liked it, you see. Nothing ever happened.

Now, one of the greatest pleasures in flying (inviting non-pilots to sit in the jumpseat) is lost to us forever. It made their year, and it made us very happy to make them happy.

So please, a little less of the self-righteous indignation, OK? it is misplaced and offensive.

1st Oct 2002, 15:41

Why do you flame him? Read his profile - he is a professional pilot like the rest of us!

What's more he he speaks good sense. Why let everyone know when the door is going to be opened? If it is open long enough for someone to take a photo it is open too long or perhaps that doesn't allow time for all the passengers to see the Captain <;)

To use the excuse that 9/11 aircraft had a locked door is crass - the accepted hijack procedure then was passive compliance as you well know and that is why the doors were opened. Those days are gone for ever.



crusin level
1st Oct 2002, 16:04
If you don't like any companies sucurity/ flight deck door policy then vote with your feet.

Don't fly with them!

Easy really, and the airline soon gets the message.

1st Oct 2002, 16:27
Of course there is always the possibility that the picture has been altered. What is the partial blue circle doing on the right side of the doorway??? :)

1st Oct 2002, 16:36
Altered picture?

You mean like the Star or the Sun or the National Enquirer would do?

1st Oct 2002, 17:11
I was on a BA flight recently and the Captain took a walk down the whole aeroplane during the flight.

A and C
1st Oct 2002, 17:39
You have my full support on this one this unlocked flight deck door thing has all the makings of a tabloid newspaper story , no one leaves the door unlocked these days and entry to the flight deck is strictly controled and if you think that just because you cant see the security mesures they are not in place then it is time that you took a re think ! .

And why the hell should the captain not be free to inspect any part of the aircraft as he sees fit .

MOR is correct when he says that a few people here need to "grow up".

1st Oct 2002, 17:39

Why the 'attack' on Mooney? You are doing enough of it lately. Mooney is a great bloke - know him well. He is entitled to a view as you are.

Personally I agree with some of what you say, but it would be nice if you avoided trying to make a fellow pro look an idiot. Which he isn't.

Devils Advocate
1st Oct 2002, 18:11
..... and just to think Mooney that GoFly pilots used to auction the flighdeck jumpseats for charity !! i.e. just go ask big Frank about how he'd leave the cockpit to conduct the auction from the forward cabin PA:

"Lets start with £10 ? I now hear £20, thank you sir. And now £50, thank you madam. Now remember folks it's all for charity. Wow, £100 - thank you sir !!! - any more ? No ? SOLD !! ... to the foreign looking gentleman in row 1"

...... ah nostalgia !

Ps. (hence the edit) Now what if some terrorist type blokes hire a group of Gulfstream V's or Challenger 604's ( these are aircraft with a potential fuel capacity of 19 tonnes of Jet A1 and a takeoff weight nearly that of many small airliners - albeit that most of which have nothing except a curtain between the cabin and the flightdeck ) and / or what if somebody gets hold of a 'light aircraft' and fills it full of Semtex ( one could easily get 1/2 a tonne of the stuff in most single engine types ). Accordingly why bother to hijack an airliner when any of these methods is infinitely easier to pull off, and just as lethal as a delivery platform.

Also, locking the flightdeck door ( especially when one keeps opening it for all the reasons that we do ) is simply NOT effective at stopping highly motivated, well trained, and determined terrorists, e.g. they'll just rush it when the hostie opens it to bring in your tea !

1st Oct 2002, 18:18
Just to get the facts straight:

According to tha caption this pic was taken on
"Team Lufthansa operated by Cirrus Airlines",
which fits with type.
Careful please with the yellow press headlines.

Interestingly enough, the bozo who took the pic is a FRA spotter, employee of LH and was even featured in th LH-Pravda some weeks ago...

1st Oct 2002, 18:19
Err...without wishing to advertise whatever it might be to all and sundry I am interested to know what is the new policy if the ''passive compliance has gone for ever''? Perhaps a reference to some authoritative document with restricted circulation would assist? Thank you. Please note this is a question for Europe : I am aware of the American debate.

Celtic Emerald
1st Oct 2002, 18:21
Perhaps the planes in these pic's aren't airbourne. The cockpit door was opened after the flight had landed on an Air Malta plane I was on recently before all the pax has disembarked (probably the closest I'll ever get to the instruments on a jet again) :(

Obviously the pilots saw no danger & perhaps you've misinterpreted the pic's.

Incidentally I notice now pax tend to now break out in applause once the plane has landed & it certainly wasn't cause of the smooth landings :eek: Obviously there is still alot of nervousness & relief to be on the ground among pax.

Mooney, don't mind them pet! Hope you're flying career is going well for you :)


1st Oct 2002, 18:33
just for info:

CIRRUS AIRLINES is a tiny little company with friendly and very professional people based in Saarbrücken near the french border. CIRRUS is painted on their AC on top and below Team LUFTHANSA. Never the less, they fly on some routes as "Member of Team Lufthansa."
Interested? www.cirrus-airlines.de

Please dont forget: Small AC with FT passengers mostly well known to crews, kind of family business.

1st Oct 2002, 19:23
I do not think flying with your door open is such a big deal atleast it should not be made into one. Follow your company procedures on that.
When it comes to cockpit visits for the flying public, well, I think that those will return once this paranoia settles a bit. With all this hysteria around this is not likely to happen any time soon. Is flying with the door open pathetic and a simply an ego-trip for pilots trying to prove something. I think not. Can´t be that simple, otherwise world would be black and white.

1st Oct 2002, 19:24

have flown to Canada ex LHR twice recently, both times sporadic claps broke out on touch down in Canada, but a sullen silence prevailed at LHR :)

For me the clapping just reminds me of the stories of the flights leaving Soviet airspace which regularly broke into applause when flightdeck announced leaving the "Red Zone" :D

1st Oct 2002, 19:28
What is the partial blue circle doing on the right side of the doorway???

I am HORRIFIED to report that I have located and identified similar blue, somewhat elliptical, moderately opaque, apparently plastic objects in a number of other Dornier images (Dornier 1 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=225978&WxsIERv=RG9ybmllciAzMjgtMTAw&WdsYXMg=VW5pdGVkIEV4cHJlc3MgKGFpciB3aXNjb25zaW4p&QtODMg=Rm9ydCBXYXluZSAtIEludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgKEJhZXIgRmllbGQpI ChGV0EgLyBLRldBKQ%3D%3D&ERDLTkt=VVNBIC0gSW5kaWFuYQ%3D%3D&ktODMp=TWFyY2ggNSwgMjAwMg%3D%3D&WNEb25u=Q2hyaXMgV2VsZHk%3D&xsIERvdWdsY=TjM0MFBI&MgTUQtODMgKE=TGl0dGxlIHBsYW5lcyBhcmUgY29vbC4uLiB0b28gYmFkIHd lIHdpbGwgbmV2ZXIgc2VlIHRoZSAiZG9ybmllcyIgYWdhaW4gaW4gRldB&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=MTA5OA%3D%3D&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwMi0wMy0yMw%3D%3D&static=yes&size=L) , Dornier 2 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=222025&WxsIERv=RG9ybmllciAzMjgtLi4u&WdsYXMg=R3JlYXQgUGxhaW5z&QtODMg=VHVsc2EgLSBJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsIChUVUwgLyBLVFVMKQ%3D%3D&ERDLTkt=VVNBIC0gT2tsYWhvbWE%3D&ktODMp=RmVicnVhcnkgMjYsIDIwMDI%3D&WNEb25u=SmVmZiBDbGF5YnJvb2s%3D&xsIERvdWdsY=TjQxMFo%3D&MgTUQtODMgKE=VGhhbmtzIHRvIHRoZSBuaWNlIHBlb3BsZSBhdCBHcmVhdCB QbGFpbnMgZm9yIGdpdmluZyB1cyBhIG5pY2UgdG91ciBvZiB0aGVpciBUdWx zYSBmYWNpbGl0eS4%3D&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=NDc1&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwMi0wMy0wNw%3D%3D&static=yes&size=L) , Dornier 3 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=106929&WxsIERv=RG9ybmllciBEby0zMjg%3D&WdsYXMg=S0xNIGFscHM%3D&QtODMg=U2FsemJ1cmcgLSBXLkEuIE1vemFydCAoTWF4Z2xhbikgKFNaRyAvI ExPV1Mp&ERDLTkt=QXVzdHJpYQ%3D%3D&ktODMp=QXVndXN0IDI2LCAyMDAw&WNEb25u=RWR3aW4gT2xpbm93ZXR6&xsIERvdWdsY=T0UtTEtB&MgTUQtODMgKE=Tm90aWNlIHRoZSBwYWludGluZyBvbiB0aGUgZnJvbnQgcG9 ydGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgYWlycGxhbmUu&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=NDQ5&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwMC0wOS0wMQ%3D%3D&static=yes&size=L) , Dornier 4 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=119347&WxsIERv=RG9ybmllciBEby0zMjg%3D&WdsYXMg=U2NvdEFpcndheXM%3D&QtODMg=RWRpbmJ1cmdoIC0gVHVybmhvdXNlIChFREkgLyBFR1BIKQ%3D%3D&ERDLTkt=VUsgLSBTY290bGFuZA%3D%3D&ktODMp=Tm92ZW1iZXIgNCwgMjAwMA%3D%3D&WNEb25u=RXVyb3BpeA%3D%3D&xsIERvdWdsY=Ry1CWUhH&MgTUQtODMgKE=Q2xvc2UgVXAgU2NvdEFpcndheXMgIkNpdHkgb2YgRWRpbmJ 1cmdoIg%3D%3D&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=Nzc%3D&NEb25uZWxs=MjAwMC0xMS0wOA%3D%3D&static=yes&size=M) )

What fresh hell is this? OBVIOUSLY the photos have been doctored. If they have not, then it must be admitted that someone has installed a device upon these airframes which appears capable of filtering much of the visible spectrum created by a thermonuclear (fusion) reaction viewed at a distance approaching 100 million miles. I, for one, do not see the utility in the device and believe there is no real market. Mark my words. If this device (if it IS a device rather than evidence of tampering with the images) had real value, then why would aircrews go to such lengths to hide the things against the bulkhead or next to a window? Perhaps these "wonder filters" are not so wonderful after all...


1st Oct 2002, 19:33
Over the last 20 years I have enjoyed the fascinating education of a great many flight deck visits. Now I find it pathetic that we are forced to deny the same opportunity to all of today's enthusiasts and budding aviators in a mass security farse. At the same time we are refusing ourselves the freedom to chat to a visitor or go for a coffee or a **** without taking part in an ineffective pantomime.

We all agree that the nail clipper confiscation culture dreampt up by the empire building security companies is a pervertion right? In the same veign, I say that anyone supporting the implementation of bull**** rules, that force us to live like frightened rabbits cowering in a headlamp beam, is contributing to the effectiveness of terrorism.

I am all for security and vigilance applied with common sense but am reminded of the story of "The Emporor's new Clothes" by the ridiculous situations that arise almost daily. Aviation industry security I ask you!

1st Oct 2002, 19:44
mmm, flew on a certain Spanish airline recently (on 9/11 this year!) and the door was swinging open for half the flight, and it definitely wasn't locked as the cc were constantly wandering in and out.

Makes a mockery of all this ridiculous security that we in the UK have to put up with now, if the rest of Europe don't bother. Unfortunately we've just bent over and done whatever the FAA has asked us to do. Don't get me wrong, of course we have to be seen to be doing something about security, but the efforts should be on the ground, and those on the a/c should at least achieve something and not just be 'for show' as most of it seems to be.

1st Oct 2002, 21:02
MOR- if you think I should grow up- perhaps you should adopt a more professional attitude in your replies.

I realise that under US FAA rules- the doors on the hijacked a/c where locked.

However- mr bloggs in the street see's aviation safety and confidence with Pilots behind locked doors. End of Story. My main point was- pictures like this and others on the web site I came across surprised me.

I am very sad that we dont allow flight deck visits any more- it's where i had most of my inspiration. I enjoyed welcoming any one into the flight deck who wished to see it. Its a pity we can no longer take our family and friends along.

But i'm sorry- times have changed (BA Kenya and Sept 11th). The public want us tucked away- for them its security. For us- it's a smoke screen not terrorist proof. Since they the public pay me to fly i'll lock the door.

Even if this picture is false- the case continues.

A reminder of a post a few weeks back from the Telegraph :

Cockpit doors 'left open' despite post-September 11 regulations
By Rosemary Behan

There is growing concern that British and foreign airlines are not sufficiently enforcing an international requirement to lock cockpit doors during flights.

The regulation was brought in after the terrorists gained access to cockpits and took control of four aircraft over the United States.

The Daily Telegraph has received dozens of letters from readers concerned that cockpit doors are being left open.

Captain I T Whale, from Frinton-On-Sea, Essex, claimed that, on a Ryanair flight from Stansted to Glasgow Prestwick in early July, the cockpit door "stood open for long periods of time". Capt Whale added: "Even when it was shut, the cabin staff seemed to be able to pass in and out at will with no locks, combination pads, or prior telephone admission required."

Later in July, Capt Whale flew from Stansted to Rome Ciampino airport with Go, where he witnessed similar procedures. "We also commented on passengers being able to use the forward toilet with the flight deck open. There was no apparent reinforcement of the forward bulkhead or flight deck doors on either aircraft, so far as one could tell."

A spokesman for Go insisted the airline "adheres to the strictest on-board security procedures [including locking cockpit doors]. Along with other airlines we are working with the Civil Aviation Authority, the Department of Transport and manufacturers to complete a programme of fitting reinforced cockpit doors. The safety and security of passengers is Go's highest priority."

Nigel Gates, from Rickmansworth, Herts, a trained pilot and an expert on air traffic management, air traffic control and aviation engineering, who has flown regularly since last year's terrorist attacks, said he had been impressed with the increased security measures shown on American Airlines and British Airways.

He was less impressed on a Ryanair flight in June, from Stansted to Graz, in Austria. Mr Gates claimed: "Without giving any form of signal the cabin crew were entering and leaving the flight deck, which seemed not to be locked during the flight. I wrote to Michael O'Leary, the chief executive of [the Dublin-based] Ryanair, who assured me that the flight doors on Ryanair aircraft were kept locked and were only opened in response to a signal from the flight crew. However, it is interesting to note in last week's Daily Telegraph that another Ryanair passenger has also observed what I noticed three months ago."

A spokesman for Ryanair said: "Ryanair policy is to lock the cockpit door at all times and it is only opened on pre-agreed signals between cockpit and cabin crew. Ryanair operates the most stringent security measures with regard to passenger photographic identification, which is a prerequisite for check-in on all Ryanair international and domestic flights.

"We welcome such feedback from passengers and will be addressing their experience with the relevant crews in our continuing policy of maximising the safety and security on all Ryanair flights."

Don Moffat, who returned to Britain from Toronto with MyTravel in July, said the flight deck door was left open throughout the flight. A spokesman for MyTravel said: "The procedures used by MyTravel Airways for securing the flight deck door comply fully with present Civil Aviation Authority and US Federal Aviation Authority Administration guidelines. The door is locked at all times during the operation apart from when access is required by the cabin crew for a particular reason, or the flight deck crew need to leave the flight deck for a short time. In these cases specific security measures are taken. At no time is the flight deck door left opened or unlocked."

Readers have also expressed concerns about a number of foreign airlines.

The CAA said it would take the matter up with the British airlines and "would remind them of the policy to keep cockpit doors locked at all times during flights".

A spokesman for the Department of Transport said the Government had no powers to force foreign-registered aircraft to lock their cockpit doors during flights to and from Britain. "However, if we became aware of foreign airlines not complying with this requirement we would pursue the matter with the state concerned," he added.

Jet A1
1st Oct 2002, 21:32
I really think some of you guys should wind your necks in and stop blasting Mooney !

I was very anti our company ploicy of locking the flight deck door, but this is not for customer confidence but also my personal and flight safety !!!

Being blase and moaing about how these pictures could be doctored is missing the point of the topic...a year on crews are definitely becoming lax and how long will it be before we are back to the good old days ??

These procedures are designed keep us SAFE and SECURE !

1st Oct 2002, 22:16
Thanks, Captain104, for the commonsense posting.

"Sort of family" must touch a nerve in anyone, flightcrew or passenger, who flies or has flown regional and recognises the same old farts and nutcases, flightcrew or passenger, at the other end of the aircraft.

Someday soon, someone will come up with statistics comparing the chances of being involved in an incident/accident with those of being involved in a .... what to call it? .... "passenger aggression incident".

I don't really think Sept 11 changed the relative probabilities much at all. Just our perception of them. And frankly, I don't see much terrorist profit in targeting a Lufthansa - or any other - regional to make a mark on the world.

So I am NOT going to stop flying ABC "partner" airline's regionals just because the cockpit door was left open. I might, however, as an almos subconscious consequence of Sept 11, keep a more attentive eye open for my fellow passengers. Then again, having given them the once-over in the waiting lounge and as we boarded, I might not.

I disagree with your initial reaction, Mooney, but I also disagree with the quick-draw reactions of those who torched you.

Has value judgement succumbed entirely to SOPs? Put yourself back in the position of a regional crew who can say Hi to most of the faces they see coming on board.

Hand Solo
1st Oct 2002, 22:17
These procedures are not designed to keep us safe and secure, they are designed to make the public think they are. If you want safe and secure then put in a second door blocking access to the flight deck door and operate them both on an airlock principle, just like El Al do. Theres little real benefit in installing a single reinforced door if it still has to open to the cabin and its just a farce to make it bullet proof when the rest of the bulkhead isn't. Money is still the prime driver here. We have to appear to make things safe to keep the pax happy, but we won't actually make things hijack proof because that costs seats, wardrobes and lavs.

1st Oct 2002, 23:28
Hand Solo has it absolutely correct.

Under the current rules, access to the flight deck is permitted, as is the egress of pilots for physiological reasons. On many types, there is a key outside the flight deck, under the control of the No. 1 cabin crew, by which they gain access.

So now we have a key in the cabin. How secure is the flight deck? IT ISN'T SECURE AT ALL! It is all just window dressing. None of the rules currently in place will have any effect whatsoever on a determined terrorist, who will have quickly observed how the door locking procedure works.

Having the door locked might make some pax happy, but to the majority it is a non-issue as even the most boorish business traveller knows that any determined terrorist will have his way, one way or the other. As Hand Solo says, the El Al solution is the only effective one.

And for those of you who think I was a little hard on Mooney- I wasn't- his post was hardly the sort of post you expect from a "fellow pro". If you want to be treated as a "pro", act like one.

And for you Mooney- locking the door isn't your decision, that responsibility rests with your captain.

Devils Advocate
1st Oct 2002, 23:29
Hand Solo - might I say, "Well said !" .......... in as much that locking our 'single' flightdeck door will NOT stop determined hijackers from gaining access to the flighdeck ( coz we keep opening the door ) - and so as to whether one should bother to lock it is very debatable - i.e. these apparently oh so carefully designed safety and security procedures, w.r.t. the flightdeck door, will not, and do not work.

Of course what's really needed ( i.e. something that really will keep us 'safe and secure' ) is a 'double' flightdeck door system - like wot ElAl have on their aircraft - but as has been noted fitting something like this will prove expensive and so is very unlikely to happen ( and in the meantime we'll all partake in the 'Emperors New Clothes' ) - so what price safety huh ?!

2nd Oct 2002, 01:32
Your fair assessement:
These procedures are not designed to keep us safe and secure, they are designed to make the public think they are. If you want safe and secure then put in a second door blocking access to the flight deck door and operate them both on an airlock principle, just like El Al do.

Maybe ORAC can figure out cost efficiencies here. :)
How many crafts and at what cost (all) airlines can install double doors vs having paid this security "trained staff" (stuff at times), air marshals included to have them eliminate tweezers and nailclippers.

May not be such a bad idea Hand Solo.

In the US one of those hot shots security dudes get anywhere from $23K to 35K per year and the marshals about $55K a year. I wonder what the installation of the second door between the cabin (in the galley) and the flight deck would be?

2nd Oct 2002, 07:02

I'm the guy who took that photo.

Since I find this discussion to be rather immature at points and I have been personally flamed, let me clarify a few issues:

- The photo is real. I have more than 2,700 photos at airliners.net and not a single one is a fake. The blue circle is a sunscreen.

- I didn't think myself that this was such a big deal to have the door open. MHG airport had very thorough checks (more than in FRA), and this is a small plane with 20 pax on this flight.

- My intention was neither to flame LH, Cirrus Airlines, or the pilots on this flight. If you read my trip report http://airliners.net/discussions/trip_reports/read.main/25602 you will notice how impressed I was by this flight.

Oh, and maybe someone could point what exactly the "door policy" is for regional domestic flights in Germany. I just don't think the pilots deliberately broke a rule, they wouldn't be that stupid. And that's why I displayed the photo, to show that the "good old times" can still be found.

2nd Oct 2002, 07:28
Never mind Mooney, always remember CRM. In spite of what MOR says you do have a say. But knowing you, you will be your usual charming self to your Captain.

Sadly, MOR appears to demonstrate arrogance, which is hardly the sign of a professional.

But then no-one is perfect.

2nd Oct 2002, 08:02
Go here for a differentiated view:


2nd Oct 2002, 08:30
I don't know why there is all the flame directed towards Mooney. Sure this photo was a split moment in time and it can be misread. Mooney is certainly premature in his statements since we have no knowledge about what happened (to the door) in the 100th of a second prior or post the picture (although in that time frame I suggest little...).

However such bombastic replies are really not in the spirit of the problem - surely?

I agree with most above that the cockpit door policies extant are just Disneyland for the punters. That we shall ever get a proper answer is another issue again.

However, passengers will take pictures like this when they get a chance and I do believe we should at least get a curtain/screen to allow a certain amount of restriction on viewing the cockpit door openings. This would at least allow a reasonable amount of security to be maintained should any "watcher" want to resolve the sequences.

However this is part of a much larger problem - and I for one do not have a reasonable answer to that - short of going back to the horse / cart / canoe ....


2nd Oct 2002, 10:02
wonderbusdriver said:
Interestingly enough, the bozo who took the pic is a FRA spotter

Why bozo? Looking through his other contributions to airliners.net he seems a talented photographer, and his remark on this photo simply struck me a gentle jibe about the FAA and the whole cockpit door situation.

He certainly does not deserve the insult you've just aimed at him.

2nd Oct 2002, 12:25

Nicely stated

2nd Oct 2002, 13:18
.. and playing devil's advocate, but isn't it a lot easier for the bad guys to barricade themselves in the cockpit if they have the help of a nice solid lockable door? Notwithstanding that one of the CC may have a key, but I would have thought that "people power" would work much better to the benefit of all if access to the pointy bit was easier.

If someone slips in whilst the door is open for a second, all we can do from outside is bang on the locked door and ask them to come out. If it was a curtain or suchlike, we could have a bit of fun beating the crap out of, errm sorry ... assisting in a citizens arrest of the ne'erdowell.


2nd Oct 2002, 14:56
Moon, be fair......
Long before sept 11th last year you already had a bee in your bonnet about open cockpit doors.

Remember all the discussions you & I had on chat about this very subject? We were one of the few operators in Europe who always flew with the door wide open; it was SOP with us and you for some reason greatly disliked that fact.

So fair enough that you have strong feelings about this matter. We all have our hobby horses, but I don't think it is entirely fair for you to use sept 11th as an excuse for the strength of your feelings about open cockpit doors now.

2nd Oct 2002, 15:22
I was on a flight operated by a large European airline a only couple of days ago, bound for Heathrow, and not only was the door open all the way, but they let a little boy in there to have a look around. He came back with a nice airline teddy bear and a huge smile on his face, quite cute really.

2nd Oct 2002, 17:50
The only bozo on that particular airliners.net thread is Neil Robertson. You should check out what he posted there. His username is SAS23.

Ben Evans
2nd Oct 2002, 18:29
I would advocate removing the flightdeck door.

2 reasons:

1) The First Officer terrorist

2) Passenger/Cabin Crew intervention


1 - Bin Laden spent hundreds of thousands of pounds training a dozen odd men to learn to fly. That took a couple of years to do.

It is perfectly feasible to select half a dozen young men dedicated to the cause and put them through a full ATPL and type course in that time and for similar money.

A frozen ATPL would cost around £60,000. A Boeing 737 type rating around £15,000. It could all be done inside 18 months. There are several airlines in Europe currently looking for type rated 737 First Officers. Many of those positions are for London bases.

It would be perfectly possible for an organisation with Bin Ladens resources to forge/create an impressive CV for their agent. He could be provided with plausible documents backing up a CV listing a decent degree in AeroEng plus other 'tasty' qualifications. If need be I am sure they could supply the funds for him/her to acquire some turbine hours or similar.

In essence they could create a terrorist with a B737 type rating and a good CV for around £100,000 and 2 years of effort.

He or she would then stand a good chance of being recruited into a - say - British airline looking for 737 rated FO's. Lets give a budget of a £1,000,000 and create 10 agents. Lets say half of them are successful and gain jobs flying out of Stansted, Luton and Gatwick.

They wait for a day when they are all rostered to be flying at about the same time. Hey presto, Sept 11th II.

These agents under a locked door policy will be immune from interference from the Cabin Crew after they have decapitated the Skipper with the fire hatchet. They can reasure the Cabin Crew on the interphone that all is well. Similarly ATC would not get a squawk and would hear the same familiar practiced voice...

If the door were re-inforced the terrorist agent is even safer from Cabin Crew or Pax intervention.

Were there to be NO flightdeck door then both Pax and Cabin Crew would have a chance of detecting the Skippers decapitation. Similarly they would have a chance to intervene.

2) Lets say the First Officer is not a terrorist and that instead the scenario is a stormed flightdeck.

We all know that a well briefed terrorist can effect entry to the flightdeck on most B737's by waiting for a cabin crew entry/exit or a pilot needing a pee. With an armoured door this would still work. At the moment of course he/she could simply kick down the door. Five well built fit young men would easily be able to kill
the Cabin Crew and effect entry to the flightdeck.

So an armed door just means they have to pick their timing. After entry is effected they can hide behind the armoured door.

With the current doors they can simply kick them down at any time.

Lets take the door away and put an able bodied pax on the jumpseat instead on our mythical B737. Here the terrorists would have to get through the jumpseat pax causing a rumpus that would alert the crew and pax to a hi-jack situation.

This alertness might lead to crew/pax intervention ulitmately saving the flightdeck before it is stormed. If the flightdeck IS stormed by terrorists then at least everybody can see it AND there is no armoured door stopping them for attempting to re-take the aircraft. Albeit succeeding in crashing the aircraft into the sea/open land rather than Canary Wharf.


The pax asked to sit on the jumpseat could act very much like the established principle of the Able Bodied Passenger currently tasked with sitting near emergency exits.

The crew could select someone to ask to sit on the jumpseat prior to departure. For long haul flights you might need a couple of pax but as the pax are more numerous this should be just as easy.

They could select someone who is an airport official, an airline employee, a man travelling with a young family, an off duty police officer or member of the military. Basically anyone who is able bodied, willing and quite frankly (using common sense) highly unlikely to be a terrorist themselves.

Most such pax would jump at the chance of spending the flight, or some portion, in the cockpit. As an established aviation routine I am sure most flights would have several volunteers at check in each sector.

Their only obligation would be that if a bunch of terrorists try to storm over their seat would they kindly make a lot of noise and try to repel them with this fire hatchet. You needn't cover the bit about squealing if one pilot decapitates another!

The jumpseat pax acts as a first line defence, a trip wire alerting the crew and an insurance against the flightcrew as terrorist scenario.

There are numerous other benefits including defence of the flightdeck when one pilot leaves for a pee plus

much improved crew communication during non-terrorist ops (99.999% of the time).

Its an out of the box idea. Feel free to shoot it down.


Just had another thought. Most Boeing types I have operated have had remarkably similar flight deck door keys...

Is it the case that each key is unique to each aircraft or are they standard issue items... If so the virtue of a locked flightdeck door is further degraded to pure nonsense.

I find it quite distracting at work to receive and deal with Cabin Secure messages from down the back when on the Approach. I have recently filed an ASR as this distraction occurred at a critical time when an error was occuring with a freq change from App to Twr... :( I urge us all to do the same.


2nd Oct 2002, 18:38
One more reason to make 3 person cockpits a requirement! In any case, I would look to El Al as a model. I believe they have reinforced doors; I also believe they have sky marshals on every flight, and I bet the flight attendants are also trained in security.

2nd Oct 2002, 18:48
Sorry KvW and DamienB if the name "bozo" as in "the clown" seems to have offended you and others.
I hope the guys from the pic aren´t offended if questioned by their superior.
Flaming someone looks different in my personal view.

Nevertheless, I take it back!

The pics look very professional, no doubt, but that was never the question.

The fact, that someone who works for an internatonal airline with many flights into FAA-territory,
a company thet has installed (and is in the process of) state of the art flt-deck doors into its aircraft,
a company that has implemented clear procedures for their own crews,
a company that has had to grapple with the problems/questions concerning their use (the problems are being discussed here and in other forums),
with crews that are doing their best to live and work with the rules imposed by the FAA/TSA,

puts a pic on the net with a very questionable title (the initiator of this thread didn´t get it correctly - what did he expect from "the public"??) and caption,
that does a disservice to just that company

does seem, at least somewhat, odd to me.

Sorry again, for offending anyone. I´ll try to stick to the facts in the future.

2nd Oct 2002, 19:16
OK, let's forget about the bozo, but:
I have posted hundreds of LH photos at airliners.net, and I get many emails with compliments on them, so this is free advertising for my company. I even received an email saying that he chose LH First Class (SFO-FRA-JNB no less!) because of my cabin photos.
There is no doubt about my loyalty to my company. I don't think that this photo is negative in any way, and only discussions like these might lead to such an effect.

For my part, I would like to bring this discussion to an end. It’s so fruitless, accusations keep flying, but noone has the facts. I didn’t post the photo with bad intentions, because I didn’t think the pilots were doing anything wrong. So please keep me out of this.

2nd Oct 2002, 20:24
Fly -K : it is perhaps worth putting this into perspective. You will no doubt observe that ( according to the information given) that the majority of posts on this thread emanate from either the US or UK. Without inviting a discussion as to why the Blair government in Britain feels obliged to slavishly follow the US there can surely be little doubt that the UK government has, in relation to aviation security issues at least, acted almost entirely in line with the diktats of the US. Most other European countries have chosen a more pragmatic view, as indeed they appear to be doing with regard to other - and potentially more dramatic - issues arising from terrorist activities. If you look through both present and recent past posts you will see that the aviation security situation - in the UK at least - is bordering on the hysterical. As to the effectiveness of the 'measures' which are implemented without any obvious reason other than to keep the public ( media) happy I pass no comment.Suffice it to say that - as a UK national, resident in mainland Europe and a current professional pilot operating scheduled passenger services through the UK - I no longer even enter the terminal buildings there on longer turnrounds to buy the odd magazine. It is simply too much hassle.
There is now such paranoia extant that if attention is drawn to any operation which is not considered to be doing ' the right thing' according to the US/UK thinking you have the sort of reaction which has appeared here. I would not alarm yourself unduly : happily the Frankfurter Zeitung has a substantially more responsible attitude to journalism than appears elsewhere in Europe. You will observe that a question I asked earlier in the thread has remained unanswered. Hopefully your desire to see this discussion draw peacefully to a close will be met!

3rd Oct 2002, 15:45
Look very carefully at an elarged picture... it is a fake.
It has obviously been carefully altered by someone wishing to raise concern... as stated before probably newspapers !

3rd Oct 2002, 16:10

Fly-K has already stated that he took the photo and that it isnt a fake. I happen to know him and have dealt with him in the past, I trust his word.


3rd Oct 2002, 17:02
Some comments on this topic are really disgusting!
But the most important thing was not mentioned.
The Aircraft was not a Lufthansa Aircraft. It was a Do328 operated by Cirrus Airlines a team Lufthansa member with own company policy.

3rd Oct 2002, 19:40
ER hmmmmm......Cityliner
It helps reading all posts in this thread. ;)

3rd Oct 2002, 20:42
Ladies and Gentlemen,

What we have here is a failure to communicate! several years ago i happened to be a pax from KHI to FRA. During my conversation with one of the flight attendants I was asked if I would like to visit the flight deck.
Upon answering in the affirmative and checking my ID, we strolled to the front when to my surprise I see the cockpit door open. I couldnt believe it!! I met the crew, and added my opinion about the open door. they were not in the least concerned.
Considering the fact that the captain did not check my Id beforehand, and traveling from a hot spot area of the world really amazed me.
We all must adcvocate for keeping these doors closed and locked. During movement of the aircraft under its own power.
unless you have been affected, you will not understand the paranoid climate that we here in the U.S. have been thrust into.

3rd Oct 2002, 23:20
Well, Mooney, guess you take this week's brushfire prize for provoking the fastest off-the-hip reaction times. As well as the densest.

Cheers, see you in chat - keep that helmet well fastened!

4th Oct 2002, 16:40
Yes those happy days of cockpit visits are gone. :(
what a shame that our jobs have changed so much, and the interaction between flight-deck and cabin has degraded as well.
now we are just 2 guys locked in a tiny space alone

Celtic Emerald
4th Oct 2002, 17:21
Gee broadreach

Didn't realise we were in such exalted company, sorry we haven't quite come up to your intellectual level :rolleyes:

I took a trip into the site to see the pic, definitely took midflight, even I was surprised. :eek: The guy who took the photo seems very upset & alarmed by peoples response to him on this site. Why there's no harm in taking the photos & revealing what risks are still being taken there is harm in giving too much information & potentially identifying & risking pilots livelihoods even though they could do with their wrists slapped. :mad:

Prudence is what is called for in these situations, there's too many loonies out there willing to use an aircraft large or small, on regional or international routes that once loaded with fuel has the potential to be uaed as a flying bomb.


4th Oct 2002, 23:04
Broadreach am I in the wrong here? What part do not understand? Look forward to your reply, thanks.

6th Oct 2002, 13:07
Hi Celtic. I'm not sure if you were offended by my last post - in no way intended and perhaps it was I being dense. It was supposed to be humorous so let me explain.

Mooney started this thread on Tuesday afternoon and was immediately flamed. By Wednesday, I think it was, the thread had gone to four pages, mostly violently pro- or con- . Even Fly-K who took the photo and made a tongue-in-cheek comment about Lufthansa security was torched as a bozo!

Thus my remark about brush fire speed and off-the-hip responses. "Dense" was intended as "difficult to understand the reasoning", not "stupid".

I thought the most commonsense posting was Captain 104's, pointing out that Cirrus is a tiny regional where everyone, at both ends of the airplane, knows each other.

On a regional flight in those circumstances, an open door wouldn't bother me at all. So I'd have to disagree with Mooney's blanket condemnation of open doors on any aircraft. On a larger aircraft with hundreds of people on board I would be alarmed - so I agree with him partially. As I do with Scareboos where large aircraft are concerned.

What it boils down to is that you're not likely to solve the security problem by across-the-board SOPs.

Although I don't go along with the manner of MOR's addressing Mooney at the outset, I do most wholeheartedly agree with his later assessment or the danger posed by a light aircraft full of Semtex.


7th Oct 2002, 05:26
Bravo! Well said. I apologize for the quick questioning on my part.

Richard Spandit
7th Oct 2002, 10:22
I for one prefer to keep the door closed. I don't wish to have passengers snooping at myself or my esteemed colleague in one of the (very) rare moments we are not reading the Ops manuals or talking about in depth technical issues.

At least it stops those who mistake the door for a forward toilet.

8th Oct 2002, 11:17
Mooney ........ You causing trouble again.!!?? You have all the makings of a first class stirrer.!!

Celtic Emerald
9th Oct 2002, 14:15
I think what Mooney :) is trying to put across is that once people start diluting the rules that suit themselves, very soon there will be no rules at all leaving a situation ripe for persons of evil intent to find loopholes.

Also I do not believe closed & locked cockpit doors are window dressing, but vital in this dangerous world. If they prevent strangers gaining access or just buy time they are certainly safer than having an open door policy where every Tom, Dick & Harry can stroll in.

Mind you the forward loo has bothered me. Could this cause security problems being so close to the cockpit?


14th Oct 2002, 13:43
The plane is on the ground with the service door 1L open Mr Mooney still another number...

14th Oct 2002, 21:05
Isn't it great to see someone with the wit to see through all this cr*p with locked doors. Locking the piece of plastic is totally useless.

The CAA have just about managed to persuade all the other authorities and their Transport Departments that locking the door will prevent future hijackings. At least the professionals know the truth. It will do no such thing and is designed SOLELY to give the public the idea that flying is safe again. That way their political masters, the various Transport Ministers, can claim that THEIR government is doing everything they can to protect the public.

Sorry but we know better. The only safe one is El AL but of course that level of security is not "acceptable" to the faceless idiots who regulate our lives. What a shame not to be able to see a little kid's eyes light up when (s)he gets to see the sharp end.