bmi

[Fuji-san]

Announced today : 66 more pilots to be laid-off from end of October '02 plus 40 demotions (Capt to F/O) :(

[acbus1]

Questions.Can anybody help.

1/ Are mainline and baby separate companies RIGHT NOW?Thought BALPA said that they were still LEGALLY the same company.

2/ ASSUMING theyre LEGALLY the same company RIGHT NOW then can they make 66 people redundant from mainline and then take them back on with baby?

3/ ASSUMING theyre LEGALLY the same company RIGHT NOW then can they say youre redundant unless you join baby on worse conditions(isnt that constructive dismissal or something according to BALPA?)

4/ If they cant do 2/ or 3/ then theyre 66 short at baby and cant do anything about it can they?So if we sit tight at mainline then they can either make us redundant and screw up baby or they can do the only other thing to get baby going and keep us on and have us do the baby job as loaned out pilots but still on mainline conditions.
So why jump ship from mainline?Arent they DEPENDING on us panicking and VOLUNTEERING to go to baby which gets them off the hook?

Im going to ask BALPA but would be grateful for any answers here as well.

Thanks.

[Max Angle]

As far as I understand it they are the same company at the moment. They cannot make people redundant from mainline and they cannot force you to take a major change in terms and conditions to go the baby. The latest letter from RH would appear to be little more than a cattle prod to get a few more people to transfer. If you don't want to go to Baby don't bid for it, I would sit tight and let events take thier course. Don't let the company bully you (surely not! into something you don't want.

[KingoftheRoad]

If we sit tight and do nothing this may force a short term re-think, but ultimately the two brands will split into two separate AOC companies. It has already been proposed that this will happen before next summer season.
For me I intend to make my choice right now while there is still one to make. If you believe that no-frills has a future, and I do, then 'baby' beckons. On the other hand giving up the FS Pension is a wrench, but what is its future ? has it got one ?
It seems to me that the 'mainline' will be continually trimmed & downsized until it becomes more attractive to a takeover. This may be seen by some to be the saving of the LHR operation, but I cant wait to find out.

[acbus1]

So thats clear then.....Mainline and Baby are still NOT separate companies.
So they cant make you redundant if you dont take the Baby job on worse conditions because that would be illegal!!!!!!!So theyre depending upon you panicking and volunteering for Baby come the "personal phonecall to discuss the situation".

If they just make you redundant then they also cant recruit from outside because they cant recruit and have redundancies in the same company.

Come the split into separate companies then they are free to do any of these things but Baby needs pilots NOW not next summer.
My conclusion is that they can only keep everyone on and have us do Baby work as if it was our normal job except for nightstopping.

I reckon that by next season Mainline will need everyone it has now including all of the 66. I dont see mainline shrinking at LHR.I see it expanding.How do you "trim back" at LHR? Why would you want to?

You can always go to Baby at EMA if youre "lucky" and mix it with the ELEVEN Easyjet 737 there. Assuming you dont end up in Wales or Scotland of course! If you reckon thats a safer career then go ahead.

Im staying put!

[411A]

Listen to all the 'legal eagles' make a determination on PPRuNe.
One wonders...do they not think that the company has a board room full of attornies who KNOW the law, not just guess at it?

Devide and conquer...working for CX, maybe BM as well.

Some never learn...:rolleyes:

[acbus1]

411A

Im sure that BMI know the law and Im NOT claiming that they are breaking any . Im no lawyer but Ive tried to learn enough about redundancy law since the current situation. Its not for BMI to protect its employees from their ignorance of their rights though . So we have to protect our interests ourselves.

Any objections?

[411A]

acbus1

None whatsoever.

My only comment would be... the future is very bright indeed for low(er) cost carriers, and for those pilots who don't think so, are hiding their collective heads in the sand, ostrich style.

[B767300ER]

But furloughs/layoffs suck, gents, any way you look at it. I don't fancy going from an A-321 or B-737 to an ERJ-145 at much lower pay rates, even if the furlough is just temporary.
https://image.jetnet.aa.com/imageserver45/aa/9_11_feature_ribbon.jpg

[Anthony Carn]

B767300ER

Even flying an ERJ-145 ( for a short period only , mind you ! ) is better than diverting your whole career down a very shaky path . In the case of my outfit , the worst scenario , apart from redundancies (which can't be practically enacted anyway ) , is a move from Airbus to Fokker 100 and that can't happen much or for long - there are'nt enough places on the Fokker and the type is being phased out ! The operation at LHR will expand sufficiently to cover this and your're then back on the Airbus .

Low cost will be OK(ish) when the " survival of the fittest " battle has been fought and the winners emerge . But will that ever happen , or will it be a career of frequent company failures and enforced moves ? The trend in working to CAP371 is an abuse of the intention of CAP371 , in my view . It is VERY hard work . Don't expect to retire -- you'll be thrown onto the Permanent Health Insurance scrap heap with ill health , or you'll be dead before you get there ! The operation at LHR is a unique gem in aviation careers in my opinion -- why throw it away ?

[Scottie]

Expand at LHR? Are you kidding? bmi are barely paying the bills! :eek:

Just where are the slots going to come from for this mythical expansion? Long haul is years away now that the EU is going to take over negotiations.....:(

LHR operation a unique gem? So that'll be Magnatex?, Queens Building, not being able to walk to your aircraft, no 14 for departure? A gem right indeed :rolleyes:

With the scheduling agreement being revised you'll be working to CAP371 at LHR, what a gem :rolleyes:

There are better employers out there than Sir Michael and his lackeys. Look how they've treated you over the last year? And you want to stay??? :confused:

[Alloy]

Have bmi/bmic/BM/BMCommuter pilots ever been treated well? From my side of the fence they never appear to be.

[Flying Clog]

I've personally never had a problem in the two years I've been with them. But I'd say the great majority of us believe bmi mainline take great joy in sh!tting all over us regional types. Lots of forced moves resulting in many of us being away from their preferred base/home/family.

Waiting for the exodus to start...

[Alloy]

May clear skies continue for you Flying Clog.

[acbus1]

So the BALPA newsletter confirms that theres summat up wi summat on the legal side as I thought.Wonder if theyre working together to look for loopholes!

Anyone had the"personal phonecall" and can give us all an idea on the tactics used?Just a general idea?

[Fuji-san]

It's now 2 weeks since the last missive from RH, suggesting a POTENTIAL 66 pilots surplus to requirements.
Since then............NOTHING, he hasn't rung , he hasn't written, course he may have posted on pprune, but how would we know ?
It's not you Anthony Carn is it ? :D

Seriously though the anguish this has caused in my household is beginning to take its toll, the waiting is becoming intolerable..........just when will that reply from eJ, Ryan or Buzz arrive?

Latest rumour from Holland, Buzz are looking to base their 737 fleet at EMA, 6 extra machines arriving soon. Yet another older child come to kick 'baby' toys away.

Someone must have heard something, whats this about a longhaul contract for SAA ?

Has anyone had a friendly call from Pete or Linda?, whats the format, any pressure brought to bear ?