Changing Instructors [Archive]

Steven JC

7th Aug 2001, 03:08

Fellow P-Pruners.... If anybody is like me and doing a PPL at the moment then some of you might be able to relate to this (?). I am currently training with a single instructor 25hrs who basically is somewhat lazy and is quite moody. More annoyingly when I ask a question he looks at me like I'm an idiot and sometimes doesn't even try to answer it....."You'll have to read The Book (Trevor Thom)" is a frequent reply.

There are only three instructors at the club, one of which is an examiner so I can't fly with him in the preceding 10 hrs upto my General Skills Test (shame because he is an excellent trainer and pilot). The other guy is very approchable and offers information easily without needing to be prompted, he does not have as much experience as my current instructor however I feel I may gain more from his teaching.

Is it common for Instructors to simply be interested in hour building ? He always seems pre-occupied with something in his mind - god knows what though !

If I ask to change instructors this may cause waves at the club (?)

Any suggestions from anyone that has been in a similar predicament or is in fact an instructor themselves?

Cheers Gents

:confused:

Crackle

7th Aug 2001, 03:32

Tom
Unfortunately there are many instructors who are simply in it for the hours. I feel these guys simply lack pride in what they do and they have no appreciation of other peoples aspirations. Having instructed for many hours, I felt morally obliged to spend time with students and give them some value for their hard-earned money.
Just remember, this guy has few concerns about you, and it is your money!
Have a word with the CFI. Tell him your concerns and let him try to put things right. It's his job to kick ass and to allocate work to instructors. If the guy's not interested I wouldn't give him any work.
What you learn now should be the building blocks for your aviation career - you deserve to get decent instruction. Don't worry about making waves, your comments might actually help in the long run.

Red_Devil

7th Aug 2001, 11:54

I agree! You are the customer and this training is the foundation of your flying career. Any poor training, which will result in bad habits, will cost time and money to correct. This is too important an opportunity and you deserve to fly with the best instructor you can find.

My PPL instructor was very good and he went out of his way to share extra knowledge and always made lessons fun. My present IMC instuctor is just fantastic. I can't speak highly enough of him as he goes out of his way each and every lesson to make sure that I understand both what we are doing and why.

Bottom line, speak to the CFI. If you don't get any joy, look for a different school. There are plenty of good instructors who will be more than happy to help you.

Vortex what...ouch!

7th Aug 2001, 12:53

I remember an instructor I had who quite frankly was Crap. I wish I knew then what I knew now. I would have dropped him like a stone. That is my advice to you. Don’t waste time with him. If you are unhappy then tell him you no longer want to fly with him and ask the other guy to teach you. If he doesn’t like it tough.

This is a business and you are the customer and if they can’t be bothered treating you as such then take you money elsewhere. There is a terrible attitude in the aviation teaching establishment that this is just the way it is. I don’t accept that and suggest you don’t either.

At the end of the day you are paying for a service which quite frankly your life may depend on. If it is not first class then find some that is.

Good luck.

Kermit 180

7th Aug 2001, 13:13

I agree with Vortex, this is good advice. Thats all I have to say about that.

Kermie

Wee Weasley Welshman

7th Aug 2001, 15:59

Ask to see the CFI in his office. Outline your concerns frankly and have a few speciifc instances of gripes to hand.

Its his job to sort this.

Do it today.

WWW

Cruise Alt

7th Aug 2001, 16:55

I have just done my instructors exam and as part of the test the examiner talks to you about practical aspects of instructing. One of the points he brought up was changing instructors. His point was that the relationship with your instructor is very important to progression on the course. If there is any personality conflict with an instructor changing is very appropriate. Additionally if a student is struggling and the CFI thinks there is a problem if he is good he should even suggest it.

I am hoping to start instructing next week. And yes I am doing it to build hours. However I used to be a student and it really p****d me off when an instructor blatently hasn't got time for you so I know how you feel. Just because one is hour building doesn't mean that you can't be helpfull too. I intend to help as much as I can!

My advice - Don't waste your money on someone who isn't earning it! Change.

NigelS

7th Aug 2001, 17:04

If there's so few instructors there and you're uncomfortable about changing because of hurting someones feelings, why not change clubs? There's plenty about.. What part of England are you in?? Lets see what we can find.

Cheers

Nigel

DeeTee

7th Aug 2001, 17:35

Familiar story....
When I was doing my initial PPL training in sunny Florida we had an instructor who was lazy, ill prepared and we felt we weren't getting our money's worth. Anyway as has been suggested above, we went and saw the CFI, he looked concerned and asked if he had a word with him would we be happy to keep him. We said no we wanted changed and he changed us to another instructor. It was the best decision we made and we were just sorry we didn't make it earlier.

Go with the advice above. Ask for a change of instructor...it's your money, get your money's worth!! It will be hard, you will feel like a t**t, and you may even get hard looks off the guy, but don't worry about it.

we felt bad about it...but we got better :)

RV6

7th Aug 2001, 18:42

Tom Ahawk - yes, unfortunately it is quite common for people to take up instructing purely for hour building. However, as Cruise Alt says - while doing so they can still be good instructors. The one you have clearly isn't working out for you - so as all the previous posters have advised - change!

You may feel a little awkward at first, especially in such a small organisation - but believe me, when you fly with someone who is really interested in teaching you, you will be so glad you made the change. I often asked my ab-initio instructor questions and he referred me to Trevor Thom's books - a good resource, but my instructor either couldn't be bothered, or on occasions simply didn't know. I got fed up with contributing to the running costs of his MG, and changed instructors :D

Good luck for the rest of your training.

Wee Weasley Welshman

7th Aug 2001, 23:07

Another good reason for seeking a change is the oft neglected aspect that the instructor might be quite unenthusiastic about a student in particular.

I've certainly been praying to god that a student would ask for another instructor on ocassion.

It is often viewed quite dimly by the CFI and other instructors if you are seen to be offloading weak students or students with distinctive personality traits (trying to be tactful here).

If the student makes the request then the FI is off the hook...

A student is a prticular instructors whole worklife for anything from a week or two through to a year. Its Soooo important to get one you - as an instructor - like and want to help. If not you will generally only go through the motions.

The wise wannabe should realise that the best way for him or her to start their professional trainig is to drop the 'customer' mentality and instead adopt the 'seller' mentality. Let me elaborate.

You want and need to get the most for your money out of your instructor. The mosr efficient way to achieve this is to make them like, respect and want to halp you. trust me - going that 'extra mile' for your student is worth a fortune to him in terms of progress and training fees.

Now this is hard. You are paying this guys wages and have a right goddammit to get a professional service in return. Well welcome to CRM boys and girls. Its not about being all pals in the cockpit and being jolly nice to the cabin crew. Its about getting the best or at least what you want from another person even when they are not making an effort to provide it or haven't the ability to do so at the moment.

Make your instructors life easy, be prepared, laugh at his jokes and now and again thank him for his efforts today or wish him a good weekend. These things make a big big difference.

I don't want to be an apologist for all the half arsed instructor/hour builders out there doing a shoddy job - you'll find them I detest them more than you with my background. Its just I've seen it time and again - you'll bust a gut for the student you like despite his failings and damn well pull them over ever hurdle in their way. For the student you thought was a prat you'll do the brief, fly the sortie, right a single line of notes and then refer him to TrevorT.

Cheers,

WWW

BEagle

7th Aug 2001, 23:54

BTW - the 'Examiner cannot examine anyone to whom he/she has given instruction in the last 10 hours' thing is incorrect. A UK/FE(PPL)A may not examine anyone to whom he/she has given any flight instruction for the same class/type.

The only instruction an Examiner may have given an applicant for the PPL who he/she is examining is a progress check or safety check during the PPL course.

Any Flight Instructor is required to provide a full flight instruction service to the client. Not just in the air but also, much to the chagrin of low-quality hours-building Wannabees, in theoretical sujects as well.

Steven JC

8th Aug 2001, 00:11

Sound advice from all. Unfortunately I have paid up front for my training (maybe with hindsight a bad idea). I'm not loaded but decided to use a house deposit on something more worthwhile!

Obviously the best thing for me to do is change to the other instructor immediately. I may do this on the basis that I would like to 'draw from his experience'- which maybe more tactful (small club etc.).

Although I subscribe to what you are saying WWW about CRM (quite an interesting way to look at it), if it were on a level playing field ie both employees, this would be OK. Most people have to deal with awkward people in their jobs and it is a skill to manage this relationship. However at £82 per hour I think this falls more into the customer / client scenario. Interesting angle though.

Short of getting a refund and going elsewhere (thanks NigelS) I think the above is the best way forward.

Cheers for all your input Gents - maybe we should archive this for anybody else with similar concerns. :)

Wee Weasley Welshman

8th Aug 2001, 03:20

Yep - at £82 per hr for most its the most expensive service purchase they ever make. But its £62 for the aircraft and fuel, £10 for the owner and £10 for the FI. Take out the tax, the fact he/she gets little or nothing if not in the air and you are actually paying your bartender more per hourly service than your FI...

BEagle you are quite correct. I subscribed wholly to that. Many did not, do not and will not.

Which just goes to underline to Wannabes that you often as not get what you pay for. A fact that should often be borne in mind when looking for the cheap PPL. I speak as a man who during 1999 worked for a £2,600 PPL course provider.

Some of these issues are the ones that have driven me over the years to commend picking a local UK school with which you can develop a more significant customer relationship.

You are often far better in my humble opinion to train somewhere for PPL, Hours, IMC, Night, CPL and IR from the outset so that you can:

a) get the best (often CFI) instructor from day one.

b) At least suss out the poor instructors early

c) Develop a mutually beneficial student/instructor relationship

d) Be familiar with local SOP's and the local training area/ATC

e) Help facilitate getting a first Instructor job IF Mr Branson is not immediately forthcoming in his job offers.

I might add that I am not an adherent of my own advice and suffered as a result.

Good luck,

WWW

Whirlybird

8th Aug 2001, 12:09

As you've probably gathered, you should change instructors. But if you've paid up front and you're worried about making waves, then do it tactfully. Have a word with the CFI, and say straight out that you're not blaming anyone. Say that you feel it's a personality clash, and you're sure it's no-one's fault, but you're just not happy and you'd like to change. No-one can get too upset about that.

If that doesn't work, have a word with the school owner/manager about getting a refund and changing schools. This is usually possible; in fact I've never heard of it being refused.

I had problems with instructors for both my PPL(A) and PPL(H). I sorted them out and changed instructors, but I'm still discovering some of the repercussions, in terms of things I didn't learn, problems that weren't picked up on, and so on. They're little things, and will get sorted out. But in both cases, I wish I'd changed instructors when I first had an inkling that it would be a good idea, not when it became obvious that I absolutely HAD to. Maybe at least others can learn from my mistakes.

BEagle

8th Aug 2001, 21:08

Without wishing to denigrate the enthusiasm of most young FI(R)s and FIs, it is perhaps only because flight instruction seems to be widely viewed as merely a convenient method of pre-airline hours building rather than as a profession in its own right which allows such low-quality people as you have experienced to cause these problems.

In the RAF, only the most able are 'creamed off' for QFI duties before completing an operational tour; the vast majority of QFIs are experienced pilots who are selected for instructional duties only after demonstrating that they have the necessary qualities to fit them for the responsibilities of the QFI role.

Whirlybird

8th Aug 2001, 21:36

It's occurred to that perhaps someone can learn from my experiences doing my PPL(A). I've never told many people about them; for a long time it was far too painful, and in any case I didn't have enough distance to understand what was going on. Anyway, here goes.

I started learning to fly at my local airfield more or less on impulse; the CFI was my first instructor, and was in many ways very good. But he yelled a lot, which rattled me more than I wanted to let on, and I think this affected me later on. Anyway, he left after I'd done about 10 hours, telling me that if I stayed with the instructor he'd recommended I'd be fine. I'm gonna call this guy X because after all this time I bear him no illwill - though I hated him for ages. Well, X and I got on OK at first. I know he was an hours builder; several times he complained about being there and the low pay etc. I wasn't a natural pilot; everything took me a long time, but it all went OK till I came to try to land. I just couldn't do it, for ages. I know now it was a problem I have with depth perception; had anyone tried to find this out I'd probably have sorted things out earlier. But they didn't; X merely looked fed up, confused, and told me I'd get there in the end - fair enough really in a way.

Anyway, eventually I landed the aircraft by myself for the first time. I threw a hand in the air and whooped with joy. After all, it felt like a hell of an achievment; it had taken me ages. Did X congratulate me? Did he hell; he glared at me with what I now remember as hate, and I choose my words with care. He said darkly: "I'm gonna come down on you much harder from now on". I didn't care; I had done it once so I could do it again, and that was all that mattered to me. When we finished, X proceeded to rubbish my flying, saying my circuits and keeping my altitude etc were crap. They were; I'd been concentrating on landings, feeling I could do the rest. But I was too happy to care about what he said.

I couldn't wait for the next lesson; I was sure it would now be OK. Then I was coming in to land; the approach was good. At about 50 ft from the threshold X turned to me and started a long conversation along the lines of wanting me to keep the power on and fly it along the runway and... Well, I never heard the last bit; confused, I lost concentration and bounced. X yelled at me to go around and I froze. He grabbed the controls in obvious fury for a go around, handing back control to me before I'd had a chance to calm down. I gripped the control column, close to tears. I wanted to stop the lesson, to tell him I didn't want to fly with him. But I couldn't. This was to be the day I could do it. Shaking with tension and disappointment, I nearly asked him why he'd done that, why he'd sabotaged my efforts when I had it right. But I couldn't get out the words. I decided to grit my teeth and carry on, being too new to flyng to know that you can't learn in that state. My state of mind must have been obvious to anyone with any sensitivity whatsoever, but X appeared not to notice. I couldn't manage another landing after that, unsurprisingly. With hindsight, I'm amazed I managed to fly at all.

That day coloured virtually the whole of my training. It had somehow caused a kind of block, and I couldn't land after that. I'd also lost confidence so thoroughly I could barely drive to the airfield, let alone fly. I didn't ask to change instructors, because I thought it was all my fault, and also because the ex-CFI had told me to stick with X, and said,"If you do, you'll make it". And there was no new CFI, and no-one I felt I could talk to. And I thought if I threw enough effort at the problem, I'd get there.

Eventually, someone else realised that things were going really badly, and found me another instructor. The new guy talked to me a lot, found out what had happened, and was furious with X, muttering angrily about some people being unsuitable to be instructors. He eventually got me to solo standard. Even then my problems weren't at an end - I had a tendency to panic, and very little confidence; most unlike me usually I might add. Many times I thought of giving up, but I loved flying in spite of everything, and I never ever give up.

Eventually I got my PPL. I think I had been more or less an average student at the beginning, though it's hard for me to say. But with all that had gone on, it took me almost 90 hours.

X upset several other people; one at least gave up flying because of him. Yet, to be fair, some people found him very good. I know it would have saved me a lot of time and money if I'd followed my first instincts during that disastrous lesson, and told him I wanted to stop there and then. But then, hindsight is always an exact science.

There's not much more to say. But I know WWW and some others think I sometimes come down too hard on hours building instructors, and refuse to accept that they may have a point of view. Now at least maybe you understand why.

Delta Wun-Wun

8th Aug 2001, 21:59

I think Instructing is an art form.Maybe some of X`s method suited some people,but quite obviously didn`t suit most.That is where a good Instructor will adapt his training methods to each pupil to try and bring the best out in them.

scroggs

8th Aug 2001, 22:34

Some people are just not suited to instruction, and others may get on like a house on fire with some students, and not at all with others. It is the CFI's job to weed out the misfits and incompetents - he should be flying with all the instructors regularly - and to juggle the personality conflicts to as many people's satisfaction as possible, without pandering to the professional whingers.
Of course, it's very difficult for the CFI to know what's going on in those little cockpits up above the airfield, but an open office door, and a trained ear and eye in the bar at the end of the flying day, can help immensely. Some places even run their own local Confidential Report system, for just this kind of situation.
The bottom line is that, as the customer, you should point out your concerns to the CFI. It is then his responsibility to do something about it, if he feels your complaint is justified, and if he is actually able to do anything. If he can't, or won't, you can take your money elsewhere. But he should let your FI give his side of the story as well; there should be no judgements on just one side's account of the situation.

Charlie Foxtrot India

9th Aug 2001, 17:12

I had some horrible instructors when I started, but the CFI was the worst, I had one lesson with him, he stank of booze, yelled a lot (probably because he was pi$$ed), and smoked during the lesson. Yuk! It's a bit hard to say you don't want to fly with the CFI, but luckily he got sacked soon after!

You want it when?

9th Aug 2001, 18:14

Fortunately I've got no problems with either of the chaps who instruct me. However I'm at a satalite operation so the chances of me ever seeing the CFI are ZERO.

However I'm big enough to talk things out if they arn't going well (currently cr*p at landing but with only 7 hours what can you exepct). If I'm not happy I'll vote with my feet and wallet - they know this todays market is pretty competative. :) NOT that I'm likley to of course.

Steven JC

9th Aug 2001, 22:18

Thanks for taking the time to share that one with us Whirlybird.

I'm glad it all worked out in the end for you (I hope). :)

Wee Weasley Welshman

9th Aug 2001, 22:42

Just one point of context. As a 17yr old you were paying more per hour to your driving instructor than you were to your flying instructor. Yet you demand the highest level of professionalism from your FI. IF you paid more for your FI then perhaps you would be guaranteed to get a more professional service. Rather than trust to chance.

Nothing annoys me more than people who train somewhere very cheap and then go somewhere else more expensive and get better treatment AND THEN slag off the cheap place. Why, oh why, do you think it was cheaper in the first place?

Its much much easier to be a good FI if you are on a salary and have decent working conditions and a contract than if you are paid by the hour, treated like crap and might be sacked tomorrow. But this costs money. Yours.

Just saying,

WWW

Oleo

9th Aug 2001, 23:40

Interesting point of view WWW. My pay as a flight instructor ranged from zero, to flying in exchange for twin time, to a bottle of tequila for a BFR, to US$20 an hour for ground and flight time.

I hope I never let the amount of money (or lack of) or crummy management, enter into the effort I put in for my student. I took it as a matter of personal & professional pride to give 100% always. I always tried to remember what it was like for me when I was a student pilot.

Whirly - what an awful experience! Those sort of people are generally cowards and only try it on as long as they think they can get away with it. Well done you for battling through it! Learning to fly should be fun. None of us do ourselves or anyone else any favours by putting up with bully instructors.

[ 09 August 2001: Message edited by: Oleo ]

low n' slow

10th Aug 2001, 00:14

It's sad that some people don't take the job as a flight instructor seriously!
I remember a FI that came to our school. The first time I was to fly with her, she looked rather grumpy and told me I didn't have to do the preflight. This made me nervous as our CFI had told us that this was paramount. Then, when I started reading the checklist, she just gazed out of her window and didn't pay atention whatsoever to what I was doing. When I came to the Taxi checklist and said, Brakes, check left, your brakes... your brakes, YOUR BRAKES! it took some time before she responded.
The rest of the session continued in this manner and by the end of it, I was furious.
I wasn't worried over the fact that she'd been horrible towards me, but more over the fact that she didn't seem to care about what I was doing. A teacher needs to be into the flying loop as much as the student does to prevent small mistakes from going to far.
Later I (and many of my classmates) expressed our thoughts and she got better. By the end of the term we were good friends and I thought of her as a good FI.

In your case though, the solution seems to be to change instructor. I this isn't possible, you'd better chat with him or change club.
regards/lns

Chocks Wahay

10th Aug 2001, 16:15

WWW I couldn't agree more, however the problem isn't limited to cheap schools. I learned at one of the more expensive schools in the UK, and found much variation in the quality of instructors.

An extra 5 or 10 pounds per hour on the cost of the lesson wouldn't put most people off (you're already paying around 110/hour in the uk) but it would make the difference between poverty and a living wage for instructors. If that were the case, I know there are a number of talented and motivated intructors who would make a career out of it, and that has to be good for the industry and us as pilots.

It's down to the schools - I wold happily pay enough to give the instuctor a decent wage. Finding out that the guy (Hi Pete) who'd just spent an hour with me saving my life every time I tried to flare too late/early earned something less per hour than the woman who cleans my house was a bit of a shock.

Whirlybird

10th Aug 2001, 23:48

WWW,

I've heard this argument from you before, so let me spell it out for you. I'm not talking about being a good FI, I'm talking about NOT being an obnoxious bullying total bastard who does more harm than good. OK? You get the point?

I would have learned to fly more quickly if someone had said: "This is an aeroplane, this is roughly how it flies, now I'll sit here and make sure you don't kill us while you work it all out for yourself".

Incidentally, I don't think this chap ever did get an airline job. I wonder why.

Whirlybird

11th Aug 2001, 01:06

WWW,

You wrote:

"Its much much easier to be a good FI if you are on a salary and have decent working conditions and a contract than if you are paid by the hour, treated like crap and might be sacked tomorrow."

Hmm, this suggests to me that the flying school where I learnt and you taught has crap working conditions, and instructors are "treated like crap and might be sacked tomorrow". And yet whenever anyone asks about learning to fly at Welshpool, you're the first person to recommend it. Please explain.

I've done many jobs where I earned less even than Welshpool's flying instructors. I still always tried to do my best. Does the amount of effort you put into something always depend on whether you feel you're getting paid enough? Like Oleo, I find that more than a little worrying.

Instructors are not forced to work at any flying school; they can leave. If they choose to stay, then they are responsible for what they do, including the harm they do. You can't disclaim responsibility because of bad pay!

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Whirlybird ]

clear prop!!!

11th Aug 2001, 01:11

Well said whirly!!!

Great idea folks, all for, it pay instructors more!!!

Problem is, where does the money come from. The small FTO’s /Clubs are on a crippling margin anyway. Students,.. will they cough up another £10 an hour…I DON’T THINK SO!

It’s crass to suggest that good instructors deliver less, and could even be bad instructors because of the pay (they knew about before they started). In fact it’s more than crass, it’s a bloody insult!

Good instructors are good instructors.

There are some pretty crap driving instructors out there buy the way WWW

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: clear prop!!! ]

ScottishBurd

11th Aug 2001, 03:33

I was going to post this on 'agony aunt',but maybe you guys will be able to offer some much needed wisdom..
I've just spent a painful night with a very upset friend,one of the very few girls I know who also likes flying.She has wanted to be a pilot since she was a young kid & spent years working very hard to pay for it,like most of us.
She started her PPL about 3 years ago now.She still doesn't have it & has done about 100 hours with 2 instructors,both of whom I'd quite like to punch at this particular moment in time.The first guy she flew with for about 70 hours.Four hours into her PPL training she was told
a) she would take at least 80 hours to do her PPL
b)He felt it was a shame the club didn't have a policy of 'chopping unsuitable students'
c)She would better not 'get into trouble with her credit cards' on account of her 'slow progress'
I was told pretty much the same,but ignored it & used the f-word.This kid was too polite.
Rumour has it that none of this guy's female students have got their PPL's in less than 100 hours,but because he was an ATPL & an airline captain she seemed to think the sun shone out his arse & remained doggedly loyal & carried on flying with him.Christ knows what went on here,but nobody said a word about it.
She got 100% for most of her ground exams,gave up the idea of new cars & nights out & carried on flying.About a year ago she was told she was ready (after 70 hours,I think) to sit the GFT.At this point the original instructor left & she was assigned to a new instructor,purely to 'finish off'.The new instructor decided she had been taught 'a load of crap' by the first guy & should basically start from scratch & learn totally different methods.One year later,apparently she's still in the circuit,ground exams gone out of date & her confidence is in so many pieces she cries when anyone even asks how her flying is going..She feels she has failed & failed dreadfully at the only thing that ever mattered to her & her happiness & confidence have been totally destroyed.
I wondered exactly what dreadful problem existed with her - maybe she was just crap & tactfully needed to be told to stop.. Two weeks ago, I arranged to go flying with her to find out.She was able to fly & land a totally unfamiliar a/c type with no difficulty at all.Not a single problem. I am utterly baffled about what has happened here & more than a bit pissed off that a fellow flying friend,who was once the most enthusiastic & determined person I knew has got this. .Tonight,in floods of tears she told me she couldn't face the embarrasment of being a student any more & was giving it up.
I don't know what to say anymore & feel totally useless as a friend... Help. :(

[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: ScottishBurd ]

kabz

11th Aug 2001, 08:40

Awww ScottishBurd. Your poor friend. Sounds like, if she can fly, then you should try and cheer her up and help her find a decent instructor, who can help boost her confidence a bit.

There's a whole stack of people out there including me, whirly, etc., who had a miserable time around the start, but who managed to get it all back on track through sheer force of will and bloody-mindedness, eventually.

I quit the engine stuff to fly gliders and to try and fall back in love with flying again. I was helped in this by a wonderful bunch of instructors, Dave Larsons, Ingo, Steve Nichols and Pat Brown who collectively had me solo in a couple of hours flight time, but more importantly, taught me the behaviours and confidence required of a student, that had **never** been taught to me before.

Confidence and good decision making are important to you when you are PIC, but are also crucial for any kind of flight test be it a skills test, a BFR, a checkout, or even dual with a new instructor.

I think there is a set of people in the world who would rather sit back and listen, and who are attentive to every word, nuance, gesture and intonation of the person teaching them to fly. This can be a killer, if the person teaching regards this as a weakness.

My flying improved when to a certain extent I stopped listening quite so much, and started regarding the aircraft and the decisions as mine, until definitely informed otherwise. It was a great step forward when an instructor informed me that, while he might have flown slightly differently, I had done a perfectly good job and he was happy to sign me off.

As far as being embarrassed at being a student goes, maybe she just needs to think of the end result, the freedom, the achievement, and it **will** be worth it. Brazen it out !! 50 hours or 100 hours, she'll still be a pilot, and that betters 90 % of people, like it or not.

Keep her at it. Good Luck !!!!

Whirlybird

11th Aug 2001, 13:26

ScottishBurd,

This sounds so like my experiences it's uncanny, though considerably worse. You've only got the bare bones above. I was told after about 3 hours: "You'll make it, but you won't do it in 40 hours". Luckily I took that positively and always hung on to the "you'll make it". Even after I got my PPL I never believed I was any good for ages. I remember one friend, a PPL who'd been flying for over 20 years, saying to me in bewilderment: "What's the matter with you? Your flying's fine, you land that horrible little tomahawk better than I can, you're OK on the radio - why do you think you can't fly?". I know why; I'd been told it too often in too many ways.

This sort of thing happens far too often. I've now gathered that what happened to me is common, and that the only fairly unusual thing is that I stuck it out and actually got my PPL. Tell your friend to find another school, and that she CAN do it; these so-called instructors are idiots and arseholes. And please please please persuade her to e-mail me, cos maybe someone who's been there can help!

Just had a thought; my first instructor (not the "X" mentioned above); moved to Scotland and got an airline job. Could it be the same guy?

ariel

11th Aug 2001, 15:38

I couldn't agree more with Whirlybird regarding 'X' I too have had the 'pleasure' of meeting this guy, plus some of his students, (thankfully, I declined his offer of becoming one!).

At 'X's establishment, (with the 'tuition' of 2 instructors), I just could not progress beyond the circuit, and simply could NOT land the aeroplane; WHY? - I simply did not know HOW, having never been taught the basics. The instructor would always take over to do the landing, telling me to "follow through on the controls".

After parting with an obscene amount of cash, (for a school that boasts low rates), plus due to some personal reasons, I gave up for nearly a year.

On deciding to restart training, there was no way I was going back to this place, and started looking elsewhere.

To cut a long story short, I restarted my training with an extremely experienced professional instructor, (not an hours builder), who has been teaching for years. Even though he is not the cheapest, and the location of his school meant me undertaking a four hour drive, and paying for digs, pound for pound it has worked out a lot cheaper.

The reason is simple:- this guy knows how to teach PROPERLY. After only two hours instruction, my landing problems were obliterated. After 3 days, I went solo for the first time. I'm now on the verge of completing, and, time and work permitting, will be going down shortly to do just this.

Also, (and this is just my personal opinion), he's not frightened of possibly getting a 'blip' on his shiny ATPL should a student of his scratch the aeroplane.

The moral of my story is the same as that given by most participants to this thread: If you are unhappy, and/or are being demoralised by an instructor, for Gods sake, CHANGE him/her. At the end of the day, it's your money that is being wasted, and perhaps, more importantly, your self esteem that is being destroyed by these people

There ARE good instructors around, who genuinely want you to succeed, and who take a pride in your achievements, don't give up until you find one!

ariel

Charlie Foxtrot India

11th Aug 2001, 16:25

I too was told in the early stages to give up, and not very gently either. Fact is I didn't have a clue what was expected of me or how I was progressing if at all; and was scared to make a twit of myself. I never had a single pre-flight briefing, and during my CPL the only debrief I got was "that was a load of cr@p". It wasn't until I did the instructor rating that I realised how lacking my early training had been. eg I spent 10 hours in the circuit before my favourite instructor realised I couldn't land, because my seat was too low and all I could see in the flare was instruments. One cusion later and bingo. I wasn't so stupid after all!
Being a stubborn old bag I kept at it, and when I was studying for my CPL writtens, the aero club had a book running on how many times I would fail them before I gave up. Nobody won anything.
Is it a girl thing? Do the males assume we're rubbish at flying before we start and of course that rubs off onto us?
There's no doubt that us girls learn very differently from the guys, and stereotyping can get in the way of our progress. Low self esteem is a big problem.
Scottishburd, please give your friend a hug from me, I know how she feels, she's not alone. Us girls tend to be thinking of so many things at once it's difficult to focus on just one thing. But that's the trick, to leave everything else on the ground and concentrate only on the flying.
I have a teenage girl learning to fly with me, she gets a bit wobbly sometimes and then takes a deep breath and says "I can do this!" and she has her confidence back again.
Simple, but very effective.

[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: Charlie Foxtrot India ]

Wee Weasley Welshman

11th Aug 2001, 18:51

Whirly - I said it is EASIER to be a good instructor if you are not paid rubbish and treated like it.

At Welshpool I earned a very decent wage flying an avergae of 85hrs a month and whilst the Boss was harsh I was always paid on time and was glad of the job.

You lot can bang on about 'professionalism' all you like but in the real world YES it does make a difference if you are earning sod all whilst risking your life day in and day out.

The term 'hours building instructor' is being taken as a term of denogration. Well fine. If you want a professional full time instructor then my hourly rate last year was circa £70. Fancy paying that? No? Well stop moaning then.

I hate rubbish Flying Instructors with a passion. I've seen up close what damage they can do. I can take nothing away from the personal testimont of those here you have had bad experiences (Whirly - I can't for the life of me remember you you flew with - do email me as I am intrigued now altough I do believe you).

On the topic of being told you are not very good.

If thats done by a poor instructor because of hi own lackof ability then its an utter disgrace.

However, lets look at the other side of the coin.

I've seen young Bloggs pitch up with the course price and a packet of smarties in his pocket and nothing else besides. He turns out to be 'average'. The 'average' PPL is issued with some 70hrs in the logbook. Is his intructor remiss to tell him to expect an extra 20hrs from the early days or is he remiss in allowing the student to continue down a path which will lead to a running out of cash and therefore the end of training? Tough call.

Taking it a stage further - is an instructor ever right to discourage someone from continuing wither with a PPL or a Professional Career ambition?

I think yes and and have had to do so.

On the PPL front the only consideration is safety and enjoyment. Some peope start and frankly they will never be safe. They may throw money at the problem and get themselves on a good day through their test. Two years later they become a statistic. Shame their instructor never advised them to take up another hobby eh? I've seen shaky students get through PPL's and then seen them have accidents shortly afterwards.

Its all very well being sweetness and light and adopting an attitude of everyone can do this it just takes effort and training. Yeah it does but it also requires some degree of aptitude - not a lot - but some. Some people don't have it accept it.

Then there is the Career flying training scenario.

All of the above applies its just that nearly everyone that starts down this path has the ability to pass the PPL stage. Its just that fromday one if you as an instructor can see that they are going to really struggle to pass the single pilot instrument rating flight test then they may as well not spend that first penny.

I had a student, a nice young chap with a very good attitude whom I bent over backwards to carry through his CPL course. But he wasn't going to make it - I knew. I told him. He shrugged it off and promised to re-double his efforts. I told him again and put it in writing that he was 'extremely unlikley to pass the full course'. Again he shrugs this off. By now he is having a miserable time, failing groundschool as well and is starting to dread flying. I'm not shouting, I'm not miserable - but you can't be upbeat when Bloggs has just made a complete hash of an exercise you are repeating for the fourth time.

Bloggs eventually fails a significant flight test once again and push comes to shove and he jacks it in.

The bill? £34,000. The outcome, not even a PPL.

He returns home to bewildered parents who are distraugt to find out he has failed - he told them everything was mostly fine. At a very young age he has a financial millstone around his neck, his family and friends are hurt, shocked and out of pocket and he is quite quite miserable.

All of this could have been avoided 10's of thousands of pounds earlier and with a lot lot less heartache.

It is a lasting regret of mine that I could not have spared this young man and his familt this terrible woe. Short of dragging him out of the college and throwing him out the gate there is little else I could have done.

Thats perhaps just a glimpse of the other side of the coin.

Good luck with any training - it never stops...

WWW

ariel

11th Aug 2001, 20:04

WWW

You were obviously at Welshpool before my time, so I've never met you. I happen to agree with your philosophy of being straight with people if they are obviously not going to make the grade - personally, I'd definitely want to know, (and did in fact once ask, to make sure, but was told you're OK - carry on). If at any time now or in the future I think I'm not going to be safe, I'd like to think I've got the sense to call it a day, and not put other lives at risk, or become a needless statistic.

My gripe with what I call 'hours builders' (this only applies to the ones I've met), is this: In my <humble> opinion, MOST, (not all), of them are not really in it to ensure 'Bloggs' is OK. They are there mainly to get the required amount of hours to enable them to be accepted into an airline, and as such, are 'flying on the students back'.

During my time at the above establishment, I had 2 instructors, (as stated on my previous post). Instructor one was 'persuaded' to take me up, even though the weather was bad. (At this early stage, I needed to have a reasonable horizon, not cloud coverage). Sometimes, instructor one himself didn't want to get airborne - HE told me that. This happened a couple of times, and on one occasion, instructor one actually nearly panicked when coming down to land in bad visibility. Obviously, what I actually learnt from these sessions was zilch - zero - nothing. The school had their money, instructor one had his hours, (and shattered nerves), and me? - bereft of a couple of hundred pounds, and nothing else to show for it.

Instructor two was somewhat better. A nice chap, but forever moaning about the school, (what they paid him, how they treated him, (and others), how he couldn't wait to get to an airline etc...). In fact, every lesson, I got an up-to-date progress report on his aspiring career. Very nice, except for the fact that I wasn't actually learning anything at all!

WWW, faced with instructors like this, how is one supposed to progress? I don't know, please tell me. With retrospect I should have put a stop to it and either gotten yet another instructor from this school, (third time lucky?), or gone elsewhere. BUT because of my inexperience, I did nothing, 'secure in the knowledge' that they knew best.

It wasn't just here that I felt let down: My very first lesson was at a different school, with a maniac for an instructor - he thought it funny to drop the plane out of the sky, and dive at the ground with absolutely NO explanation of what he was doing, (presumably effect of controls?). This one very nearly put me off for life, but I persevered.

You can all say what you like, but there is absolutely no comparison with my present instructor, who CAN teach, and will not waste your cash by:

a) bleating on about himself,
b) sending you up in cr@p weather unless contributory to the lesson
c) giving false promises.

My post is not in any way, shape or form meant to tar all 'hours building' instructors with the same brush. I'm sure there are a lot of chap/esses who want to gain hours to get that airline job, but who do a damm good job of instructing. Similarly, there are probably 'professional' instructors who are no good. All I'm doing is making a comparison based on my own experiences, and trying to stop other people who are trying to learn to fly from making my mistakes.

Pity you weren't there when I was, WWW, maybe you'd have restored my faith!

ariel

Tinstaafl

11th Aug 2001, 20:15

Some of my best students were women, and some of my worst were men.

On the other some of my best were men, and some of worst were women.

As far as I can see, gender is irrelevent.

It's unfortunate that people end up with abysmal instructors. A bad instructor can make a brilliant student seem poor, whilst a good instructor can help a not-so-brilliant student achieve to the best of their ability.

As for "you will need x amount of hours...", I always told any enquirer that the miminum hours required are xxx but most people take yyy to get their licence.

I always told people I can't predict how long any particular individual will take as some people start well but run into difficulty later, others have difficulty early in their training but breeze through later stages. However, there are some general guidelines: younger is better than older, a life history of operating vehicles is better than one steering water buffalo, etc etc

Also that fewer the hours that people tend to have when they would achieve any particular stage of training then the greater the variability of hours realised eg. compare the minimum/median/maximum hours taken to achieve a PPL (40 min), compared to a CPL (150 min). A long winded way of saying that early stages vary more than later stages when a larger experience base has been acquired & skills have consolidated, I suppose.

Whirlybird

11th Aug 2001, 22:54

ariel,

The reason I didn't name "X" was because I'd several times dropped into Welshpool recently and met him, and I thought he'd changed - sorry to hear that's maybe not the case. I believe he's now left there in any event. Your comments about flying in weather when even the instructors didn't want to fly is more worrying. Welshpool used to have a reputation for that happening in times gone by; it didn't when I was there, and I thought that had changed. If they've gone back to trying to get people airborne no matter what (I got the previous info from an ex-instructor who still lives near there), then perhaps anyone thinking of going there should be a bit concerned, to say the least. The place is surrounded by hills, for anyone who doesn't know it; not easy to land at the best of times, and certainly not in marginal weather.

Charlie Foxtrot India,

I've discussed this problem women tend to have, with quite a few people. At Welshpool, it seemed to be older guys (anyone over about 35) too. Welshpool has mainly young lads on intensive courses going for ATPLs, and anyone who doesn't fit the mold seems to find it much harder as the mainly young male instructors often don't seem to know what to do with them. Or that was our conclusion at the time anyway. Due to its low pay etc that WWW mentions frequently, Welshpool is wellknown for its high turnover of low hours instructors; at other flying schools in the area people know if they're desperate they can always get a job at Welshpool - but many of them feel they'd need to be desperate to do so. Result - a lot of rather immature young men, inexperienced with people and life even more than in flying, who are often overworked and desperate to leave. But I didn't know that at the time I ws there. It was my local airfield, and seemed a reasonable place to go. Of course I'd rather have paid more for better instruction if I'd known; 90 hours cost me double the advertised rate for the course didn't it? And I did my PPL(H) in less than the average, so I probably wouldn't have taken all that long if I hadn't had my confidence completely destroyed. And low self esteem wasn't a problem I'd had before. I was the opposite really, and I think the guys, especially X, found that threatening. I know X seemed put out that I loved stalling at first - I had no fear at that point, and the idea of falling out of the sky seemed like great fun. He hated it, so couldn't stand this over-confident older woman - and by the time he'd finished with me I was scared of it too and have been ever since. Yes, I suspect many males do think women are rubbish at flying before we even start - look at some of the comments on the regular "women pilots" threads on PPRuNe. I've never in my life been in an environment where so much prejudice exists as in aviation. Tinstaafl, thanks for the reasonable rational comments on that - but you have more brains and common sense than most of the instructors who've ever been at Welshpool and similar places all put together.

WWW,

I learned to fly a bit before your time at Welshpool. The first time I ever spoke to you there was to ask about landing at Derby's 500 ft grass runway in nil wind when the grass was wet - I'd just done it and wondered what I should have known in advance! You gave me a good answer I seem to remember. I'll e-mail you and tell you who taught me - or tried to or pretended to - anyway. And yes, a reasonable discussion with students who might not make it is fine, but there are ways and ways of doing things. It comes down to common sense and maturity really, unfortunately those aren't tested before an instructor rating is issued. When I learned to fly helos, prospective students were told that the average was 70 hours. I've also had it pointed out to me that the on-going problems I have with fatigue when flying could be a problem if I'm going commercial, due to the pressures involved. I've said I'll bear it in mind, think it will improve as helo flying becomes less stressful for me, only want to work part time anyway, and will give up the idea if it doesn't improve. A reasonable discussion, no criticism or threat involved, very helpful, and I know where I stand. No problem with any of that.

None of this whole discussion would be necessary if everyone could act like reasonable adults. Unfortunately this isn't the case. There's a lot more to flying, and teaching it, than just manipulating the controls.

You want it when?

12th Aug 2001, 11:58

There seem to be a couple of threads mixed in here.

Should you be able to change instructors? Of course in the end it's your money bit of choker if you've pre-paid and the school you are with has few instructors.

Should instructors be paid more? I'd subscribe to that, however flying is already very expensive. I'd go another £5 or £10 per hour (ouch) - I think prehaps hours builders should be given a different oppertunity rather than FI to gain hours. Make instructing a profession or as had been said FI rating only arrives at 500 hours. Prehaps the NPPL will polarise this further.

On my landings (forgive me I'm only at 7 hours or so and with todays WX unlikley to get more) they are getting better. I've been advised that I should be able to complete the course in 45 hours - but I want to graduate and fly safe (my life and my familiy) so if it takes 70 or 80 I shan't bleat.

dingducky

13th Aug 2001, 03:54

My last flight instructor was horrible. I will refer to him as the bastard. I hated him. I was allocated the bastard. I didn’t have a choice in the matter. I could have gone and requested a new instructor. But the bastard told me that he would make me a professional pilot. This is what i wanted more than anything. So I really wanted to believe him. He also told me something about if a student had too many different instructors. It was seen to be really bad. He was my sixth instructor.
I first met the bastard when I went out to the airport to meet him. We went into the classroom there and he made me sit down on the opposite side of the room from him. He then told me that there was a lot of paperwork about how bad I was. He told me, not right out but it was pretty clear what he meant, that everyone hated me. He told me that in the aircraft I wasn’t allowed to say anything that wasn’t related to flying. He also told me not to try the girly tears thing! He asked me if I had any hobbies and told me I should do rock climbing. I am not sure what his thing with rock climbing is but he mentioned it more than once in the time that I knew him (I recently did some rockclimbing and broke a nail :p). He also asked me if I could change the tire on a car. I told him that I could (I can’t drive a car but I can do that!) he then said that most academics couldn’t and suggested that I try changing a cars oil sometime! The bastard also told me off because I wasn’t wearing my uniform that day. My T-shirt did have a picture of a plane on it! :D
The bastard told me that he had another job flying freight in a light twin at night. I think he thought of that as his real job. Whenever I didn’t like something he would point out that he was the one with the CPL!
The Bastard said that he would ask me questions (such as the airfoil shape of the flaps on the warrior). If I couldn’t answer it the first time it was ok but if I couldn’t answer it a second time I had to buy him a beer.
I flew with the bastard three times. I really didn’t like some of the things he did. Like when I was going to descend and he asked me if I wanted to go down fast or slow and then gave me an engine failure. I did not find that amusing.
I remember him not being happy one time because I wanted to refuel the plane. I did refuel it and if I hadn’t of well would have had to use the reserve fuel for the length of the flight we did. I heard stories about how he came back from flying with another student one time and they refueled the plane and actually managed to put in more fuel than the tanks were supposed to hold because they were that empty! :eek:
One time when we refueled the aircraft. The bastard was filling the tank. He overfilled it until the fuel overflowed the tank and ran over the wing. He did this on purpose! I still have no idea why. Seemed bloody stupid to me!
The other students didn’t like him either. They would claim to be sick if they were scheduled to fly with him. Or convince their usual instructor that they required a solo flight instead.
I admit that I was crap at flying. I did bad things when flying with the bastard. My last landing was truly terrible. I should have gone around. But I didn’t. I think the reason and this is really bad was that I just didn’t want to be anywhere near the bastard any longer!
The result was that I was kicked out of flight school. With the bastard saying that I would never be a professional pilot. I also heard stories about how he went around telling people how I was an unsafe pilot.
I now don’t fly. The only thing that I really wanted to do in my life. I am just an unemployed loser now :(

scroggs

13th Aug 2001, 22:11

Ding,
that's a pretty disheartening tale. But, if you really want to do this, you'll pick yourself up and go on. There are thankfully few instructors like the one you describe.
I entirely understand the bad feelings engendered if someone is honestly told that they aren't up to a professional career in flying; there are more that can't do it than can, inevitably. However, there's never any excuse for victimisation, bad-mouthing or other intinidatory tactics.
A last point; sometimes instructors make mistakes. One of my students had a real problem when flying with me, to the extent that I suggested that she would never make it through professional training (her history with other instructors was similar). To make a real fool of me, she persevered and is now a Captain in a four-engined long-range transport. She's also a good mate, and is sometime found in the more disreputable parts of Pprune!

Whirlybird

13th Aug 2001, 22:22

DingDucky, go get out there and prove the bastard wrong!!!

Or at the very least, know that you gave it your very best shot and left no stone unturned in your attempts to be a pilot.

A mate of mine, ex-army, learned to fly many years ago, told me about some World War 2 air ace who had problems learning to fly. Apparently he totalled at least one aircraft, the engineers dreaded him, and people thought he'd never make it. He did and ended up better than almost anyone else. People learn at different rates and in different ways, and everybody - including flying instructors - can sometimes be wrong.

[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: Whirlybird ]

RV6

14th Aug 2001, 16:00

Whirly - thanks for your contributions - I had very similar problems in the ab-initio stage and it's good to know I'm not alone.

Scottishburd - if your friend would like to email me I would be happy to talk to her too. As CFI has pointed out - if no-one bothers to check why we are having trouble landing, then the problem goes on and on. (It was a fellow female student who asked me if I could see over the nose when landing, when I was bewailing that I was having problems.)

With due respect to the more experienced contributors to this thread, I think there may be something in the gender issue. I had a hard time getting my PPL and after some people I knew had a terrible aircraft accident I felt that if I was to continue flying I needed to know more about it, so embarked on the CPL course. My self esteem was so low that when instructed to do a glide approach on my CPL test I apologised to the examiner, on landing, that I had not touched down on the piano keys. Luckily for me he burst out laughing and patted me on the shoulder saying "You greased it on - what are you worried about?"

So much depends on how the FI/testing officer responds to the student. The good teacher senses the right way to respond. sad that so many don't!

Still, this thread is positive in that so many of us overcame the setbacks a nd are still flying, for pleasure and/or profit :)