Buying your own rating

[AfricanSkies]

What's the most expensive rating a pilot should reasonably be expected to pay for in his career? A Caravan? A B200? a B1900? Or even just a Baron? Now we have some guys paying for 737 ratings for Nationwide, and guys paying for ATR ratings for DHL.
When will this trend stop? Some operators are getting their cake and eating it, it seems.

At what point should the pilots pa(y)in be over?

[JoeCo]

Guys in Canada were being asking, actually WERE paying for their rating in the MD 8? series for a new carrier. Something like $30,000+ USD!! That's a lot of scratch to be forking out for a brand new start-up company. And to boot, they are the only operator of that type in the country, so if it fails..... well, you all can figure the rest out on your own.

[AMEX]

What's the most expensive rating a pilot should reasonably be expected to pay for in his career? A Caravan? A B200? a B1900?

None is my answer.

Actually the only one I will probably consider, is a Corsair F4 but then again the day I'll have enough money to buy one, I will expect it to be part of the purchase price ;)

[JoeCo]

HAHAHAHAHA !!!

Ahhhh, AMEX, there you go wearing your rose colored glasses again!! Silly bugg@r ;)

(They wouldn't let me write bugg@r witha n "E" and all those *** made it look like I was calling you somehting else.)

However, I'd be interested in a Spit :D

[AMEX]

;) I hear they suit me well those glasses:cool:

Funny but I have flown 2 of the three types mentioned and never had to pay for anything. The Caravan was done at Flight Safety Wichita and the 1900 provided by the company so not necessarily cheap ratings from the employer's view point.

Waiting for a new type to go on my licence.... perhaps a few months (War dependant) and that should be done without a penny coming from my pocket.

PS: Ok Spit rating granted ! money on its way JoeCo
I think I love the Corsair because of that series they used to show. I think it was called the Misfits and Picturing the Blacksheep's exploit in the Pacific.
http://www.airliners.net/photos/small/1/2/0/250021.jpg

[V1 Rotate]

The age old debate about who pays for what will probably go on for ever.

Where do you start ? PPL ? Comm ?

I feel that there are two main types of pilot. Freelance and employed.

I personally have always been freelance and have paid for all of my training and type ratings myself. The higher remuneration far outweighs the sometimes considerable cost of training. And I believe that it is because I am freelance I have been lucky enough to always have more than enough work. In the US at the moment a freelance Hawker Captain enjoys $900 per day on average and G4 Captains about $1100 per day. They pay for all there own training.


One has to remember that Aviation as we know it is a very tough, competative business and many operators work on very thin margins in order to survive. The bottom line is what are passengers prepared to pay for? Witness the dramatic competition between the budget airlines and the old established fossils in Europe. It is far more economically viable for operators to hire already qualified expierienced crews rather than commit huge amounts of capital to training inexpierienced ab-initio pilots.

The debate will continue for ever. The important issue is that we all strive to preserve the highest possible standards whether we are independent or employed.

V1 Rotate:cool:

[JoeCo]

Well said V1Rotate. It's a tough game to play, especially these days so it's important that you play the game the best you can.

As for yourself being freelance, how did you ever get into that? Do you actually have steady work with one particular company or do you have a network of companies that call you when they need you? Just wondering because I have always loved the idea of being freelance/contract however it just hasn't come my way yet.

AMEX, sorry fella, never heard of the show/series you mentioned, but don't get me wrong, your Corsair certainly does have sex appeal!!!

P.S. How'd you put a picture in your post???

[Petes Dragon]

One most also see it from the company's side. Previously most companies were more than willing to fork out the cost of the various conversions and bond the pilots for anything from 1 - 5 years depending on the cost.

However, some pilots have no loyalty (yeah I know, if you want loyalty, get a dog), and left at the first opportunity. Although I am the last one to keep anybody back when theu have the opportunity to advance onto something bigger and better, it is the company that is left with the unpleasant matter of resolving the bonding issue. Most companies do have the capital to go to court, so they just let is go, and thereby setting a precedent which leaves the gap for other pilots to step through.

Now, they are getting clever. Why pay for training if the pilot is going to leave. Let him pay for his own training, but at least give him some form of guarantee of employment on the typel. If he wants to leave, its his prerogative to do so. The co does not have any biff with the pilots, as there is no bonding agreement to fight about.

So, now the pilots can go when and where they want to, the choice is theirs, and the co can train a new pilot. Keep in mind that it still takes anything up to 3 months to get a suitably trained pilot on line.

Why always see the darker side....

[Stratocaster]

This is a rumor site, right ? How about this one...
I hear that on the other side of the Med' there is a not-so-small charter airline that hires young folks at the end of the winter. The guys are so happy they pay for everything, and they fly for free during the summer ("line training"). Once the peak season is over, they're all fired and back to square 1 (or maybe 1.5 if you like, because they have roughly 100 hrs on jet). The next winter, the company starts the same game again. And again, and again, and again...


Regarding the guys in Canada, considering the real cost of a type rating, I'd say that some of their money is used to actually build the company, and in that case they deserve some sort of payback when (and if) it makes money. Some companies (maybe this one ?) will even include the line training in the bond, but that's a bit too far because it means they pay to fly as long as the company wishes.
"Screw the seniority, experience and all that crap, hire jobless pilots every 6 months ! We're here to make money as fast as we can to buy an island in the Pacific and retire before we're 40 !"... Yeah, right.
:rolleyes:


There are abuses on both sides, I totally agree, but nobody wins. The only decent way out of this mess is called "loyalty", but unfortunately there is no flight school or business school that teaches that.

[AMEX]

V1 Rotate

HI. Funny I had never seen it from a Freelance point of view and I think you make a perfectly valid point. You have a "shop" and you need to get some supplies to keep your customers coming back which make great sense.

The only freelance I have done so far was on little planes so this idea didn't occur to me but couple months back I was contacted to fly the CJ1 on a freelance basis.
The offer went like that. £250 per day (LHS), Flight Safety Type Rating (N-Reg) and no bond.
On the negative side, no guarantee as far as the number of flights to be conducted every month.
I had a full time position so the job security was there and the company circumstances changed too so it didn't go any further but self sponsored type rating aren't the only way to go in the industry (I know none of you has said that).

Now during my talks with this company I had to deal with the CP of the managing company. A very nice guy who has been around for quite a while too. Anyway during one of our chats he said the following:
- I don't believe in Bonds since the jobs I offer are at the top end of the market, there is no need for it.
(to clarify, the CJ was not a top end one-obvioulsy- so he was referring to their own fleet instead-).

Since then I have kept in touch with this guy who not only is one of the most approachable and genuinely helpful guy I have come across in the business but who also share the same view about it.
Perhaps I am too eager to settle and have a long term career in a company, hence why I want to make sure that on date of joining everything I hope for is there.
I guess it is a bit like love, does everyone gets to find it ? Don't know but I am here to give it a good try anyway.

As for loyalty, I might be wrong but I feel this is something found in the corporate world rather than in the airlines industry. It is very common to find guys who have been with the same owner for donkeys years and not just due to the Pension Scheme as it is often the case when working for a "major".

What dya reckon ?

Petes Dragon
I hear what you say but from what i have seen, it is not rare to find some of the worst operators (whether it is from a safety point of view or pilots Terms and Conditions) asking for selfsponsored type rated pilots.
Here in the UK there was a company called Gill Air who use to ask money for their new entrants. Those guys were also the lowest paid in the country (by far with at one stage a salary if £13000 pa). Did it prevent the company to go bust ? Nope, ity didn't.
Don't get me wrong, I will still drink beer with those poor souls who chose to do it but it isn't how I do it, that's all.
I have no intention to drop anyone in so all I need to find is my match. One I ll have done that, when talking to me, you will be talking to the guy with the best job in the world:D :D :D

Hey JoeCo, I have only discovered how to do it a couple of day back but here it goes.
In the post, type then the address of the picture found on a website (right click on the pic, go to properties, cut and paste the address here) then type
Et Voila !
It should look like that http://www.airliners.net/photos/small/0/0/0/271000.jpg
but without any space after ] and before [ which should then give you
http://www.airliners.net/photos/small/0/0/0/271000.jpg

Good day all ;)

[Petes Dragon]

AMEX,

I understand your "somewhat cynical" view on this issue, but down her in South Africa (also called the pear shaped side of the world), things are somewhat different.

Although we also have an up and down industry, it is a lot smaller than that found in Europe or elsewhere in the NH. As such, when the big players lose pilots to other airlines, they tend to produce a vacuum effect, taking pilots from the next airline down, and that airline taking pilots from the next airline down, etc. etc.

Yes, I also believe that bonds are not they way to go, because a pilot will leave if he wants to leave, bond or no bond. But now the co that sponsored that bond has to retrain and "bond" new pilots. That is the reason why the co that I am involved with has decided to go the self sponsored route. There is no drain on resources wrt paying for conversions. The co does employ the pilots it trains on a permanent basis, but as they have paid for the rating, they are free to leave at any time they wish.

The main issue here, is the fact that there are no legal issues when a pilot wants to leave for greener pastures. Maybe I am in the fortunate position to be involved with a company that has major contracts in Africa, and as such I do agree that this way of getting suitably qualified pilots, can be misused by unscrupoulous operators.

The choice however lies with the pilot. Do I or don't I. Any bit of asking around before taking the plunge, should make the choice a little bit easier.

[AMEX]

I am quite happy to agree with you about "Different places, different practices".
I have never worked in SA (love the place though) and the informations about the SA's market must be dating as all my friends who left Bostwana to return home, did so between 97 and 99. All have found jobs back home (RSA) with some flying the 1900s, the 748 or the 73 and the 72 without having paid for a Type Rating and this is what I base my opinion from as far as this part of the world is concerned (Europe and other places in Africa, it is down to my own experience).

Perhaps this due to the fact they, like me had decided against it and did everything they could to avoid this further financial commitment. At the end of the day, if one is reasonably happy in the airline he works for then, leaving without paying a bond or shortly after having joined, would never be an option.

From a company point of view, is it really better having guys who join with their Rating and going at the first opportunity they have found ( for always greener pasture;)) ? Or wouldn't it be better to make sure these guys stay because they are aware of how good they have it ?
In the short term, I agree that pilots who paid for their ratings are a better option. Often though, airlines have a short term view and knee-jerk reactions are not uncommon (such as laying off too many people or hiring too many in a short period of time). Perhaps long term views should be adopted when talking about recruitment, investments, re-branding so even if the initial outlay appears to be somewhat higher, down the line all would benefit.

Anyway like you said, it is really down to the individual to decide for or against it. Always interesting to share views in a reasonable manneers, makes a change from some thread on the site:D.
How's the Black Label these days ?

Stratocaster

A couple of weeks back there was an advert in Flight International saying the following. Prestwick based AOC charter operator. Multi engine hours building. PA34-200 Seneca. 25 Hours at £75/hour. Mini requirement CPL/IR, Multi Engine Rating, Dangerous Goods, CRM, Fire and Safety certificates.

Whoa ! all that just to build time !! Or is it more like the company is looking to employ, err sorry to use paying pilots ?:rolleyes:

[Stratocaster]

How is this possible ?
:eek: :( :mad:

25 hours @ £75/h, it's probably cheaper to get that done in the States, and you can avoid the operator's name on your CV... And I guess they change pilots every 25 hours. Minimum experience required for full time job is probably 50 hrs (how cynical).

Considering they also require the CRM, hazmat & safety drills, which are supposed to be operator-oriented (CRM for sure, couldn't swear for the rest) and are therefore useless once you change companies (this is pure JAR-FCL stuff I believe), who do they expect to get ???

The only poor souls who barely meet the requirements are the folks who lost their flying jobs recently. Are they going to play that silly game ? I hope not. So who's left ? Youngs guys with not much experience. The company will set up a CRM course and all the rest for them, and send them the bill afterwards.

Best of all, they're probably approved for single-pilot ops.
:mad: