Another Question for CASA: Are two CFI's better than one?

[engine out]

It has been rumoured that a certain school is operating with two CFI's one for the single engine stuff and one for twin engine training. We floated a similar idea to CASA several years ago when I was doing my CFI interview and we were told that you cannot have two CFI's as you must have one point of contact between CASA and the company. If you had two seperate AOC's I could understand the twin CFI's but I beleive this is not the case. The next question I wonder about is if an instructor does twin and single training and doesn't like what being told by one CFI will he try and trade it off against the other CFI.

The same company employs one of the CFI's as CP as well and refuse to pay him a wage until he generates enough work to warrant one, something fishy their? If i was that pilot I might be wanting to grow two or three pairs of eyes and aheck the regulations about that position being a full time paid job.

[THREEGREENS]

Engine out,

Not sure about the legalities of having 2 CFI's but I doubt there is a problem with these arrangements. What should be a serious concern to all aviators is the 40 something Grade One, twin and IFR training CFI/CP expected to work for an 'hours flown' rate on the pretext that if he can generate enough income, he MIGHT be put on full time. At what stage can a pilot be expected to earn a decent living and not be subjected to this type of manipulation by the industry shonks? I wonder too if this chap has realised that this business needs HIM probably more than he needs THEM?
:mad: Enough is enough I say.....pilots and students should actively boycot operators who do not pay their staff appropriately for their qualifications!:(

[ulm]

I absolutely agree with 3-Greens.

If you think the pay at the big GAAPs is bad, go fly a 206 or a C-6 around the Territory.

The industry needs a pay standard and that standard is a safety issue. (how safe is a charter guy who has been filling shelves at Woolies in Darwin town until 3:00 am when he turns up for his 6:30 charter ... who me ;) )

So who is gonna get it for you??? (I don't do that anymore, I gave it up amd went to uni !!!!!).

I know I harp on a bit, but the only one is AOPA. They can act like a union if enough of you join and push them that way, and they do have the muscle (and unlike a certain gent - haven't p!ssed absolutely everyone off yet :D ).

So, get together on here, form a click and join en-masse.

Otherwise don't confuse the huggies shelf with the kimbies in your sleep deprived stupor.

Chuck :p

[engine out]

If I refer to my trusty CAO's under 82.0 which relates to conditions of the AOC, Appendix 1 table A for an operator with any thing but one single engine aeroplane the CP must be employed on a full time basis, therefor one would assume as per the award should be paid on a full-time basis.


The wage situation is an industry standard as I well know and things will never change. To charge the correct amount one is priced out of the market and newer pilots are always willing even if it is unwittingly so to cross lines for work. i have seen many pilots who say that things are stuffed and complain at others working for free who given the chance would do so themselves, the line is thin.

However I do have complaints with the opportunists who prey on this. The standard of instructing is slipping and it is mainly with the owners I lay the blame, and I don't mean the schools where the owners are CFI's/ CP as they usually up hold both good standards of work and customer service. I have an example of one school who will not let you hire a plane after 5pm as the instructors go home and even when the staff are doing nothing will not fill aeroplanes for students. It is the little things that make the school/ company a good business not just the flying. Would junior pilots do this if they got more pay or respect from the owners who can tell? I will now get of my high horse and have a beer.

[oldrotorhead]

Amend your CAO's!! CAO 80.1 has been in the bin for years..

[THREEGREENS]

The aerodrome in question is Wollongong and the CFI/CP is the newest (additional) one on the field. To the pilot in question; Pal, do yourself a B I G favour and walk real soon; with your quals, you could do a lot better than hanging around waiting for the scraps to fall off the table, on a promise from a guy who has broken many in the past and no doubt will break many in the future!:mad:

[THREEGREENS]

Engine out,

was talking to the pilot in question over the weekend and he is taking the abvice offered in here and will be out within the week. Says he was tricked into the job through false promises and was actually supposed to be on full-time weeks ago but none of this has eventuated. Bet you he is full-time by weeks end?:)

[Mace Windu]

Ahhhh we think we know it all do we???

Firstly, engine out , did you ever stop to think that it was CASA that approved this 2 CFI/CP whatever business?? Take it up with them rather than point the finger at the organisation concerned! Talk about sour grapes!:rolleyes: If they followed the guidelines that CASA set out then good for them.

Secondly, I read with interest;

" I have an example of one school who will not let you hire a plane after 5pm as the instructors go home and even when the staff are doing nothing will not fill aeroplanes for students."

Well I find this rather hard to believe personally. Engine out, no doubt you will agree that there are ALWAYS 2 sides to a story and I will speak up on this point because it is a sore one. I am sick to death of people thinking us pilots are slaves who will do anything for a dollar.

I am sure that any reasonable organisation would have no problem whatsoever arranging for staff to remain back so long as prior notice is given and F & D times are within order.In my particular company we frequently do this with no troubles at all....yes we even fly at night!

What has been a pet hate of mine in the past is when the recreational pilot decides that he/she thinks that us poor old GA pilots will do ANYTHING for them and show up at 4:50pm on a FRIDAY afternoon and end of office hours is 5pm as in your scenario. I have no problem whatsoever if it was a request made the day before so staff can be organised and at least we are prepared.

Thankfully I am way past those years of chasing every hour in the logbook and if I had made plans to go to the pub on a Friday afternoon at 5pm with my mates then it would take something extraordinarily convincing to change my mind!! We are not slaves at all and there comes a time to draw the line. I will do whatever I can for my company and clients to make things work but all within reason.

At the end of the day only YOU know the truth....right???:rolleyes:

From my Instructing days it was company policy where I used to work that students were responsible for the fuelling of their aircraft. This had many benefits. It made the student work out how much fuel they needed ,taking into account flight planning and weight considerations and it generally made them a better pilot! They knew how to handle a bowser,use a Carnet, call up a fuel truck! All good stuff!

What type of pilot would they be if they always had the right amount of fuel onboard because the instructors were spoon feeding them the entire time! They get their PPL/CPL and don't have a clue how to use a bowser or call up a fuel truck!! They may go to an aerodrome that has a Cardswipe and not have a clue what to do! Don't laugh!! I have seen it happen!!:D

I reckon these staff are doing the right thing.They may appear to be doing nothing in your eyes but really what would you know?? In the fair dinkum department you don't have a friggin clue.Maybe it is YOUR attitude that stinks and instead of worrying about getting your hands dirty get off your ass and fill your aircraft up!!:mad: Welcome to the real world pal.

[THREEGREENS]

Engine Out certainly touched a raw nerve up the business end of your freckle eh? You read a lot more in his post than the rest of us could gleen?
:o Better take another serapax and have a lie down before you blow a fuse old timer!:rolleyes:

[engine out]

I think I must reply and defender my honour (or should it be pistols at dawn?). I have no huge problem with dual CFI's though I believe that it could lead to more problems than it solves. As to poor GA pilot and customer service, remember that it is the customers ultimately paying your wage. I am not, and very rarely am a recreational pilot, I spent seven years in GA paid like **** but had a ball. I have filled and cleaned more aeroplanes than I can care to remember, lived in tents, worked long hours and gone out of my way to help passengers, student, private and commercial pilots in the interest of aviation not in the interest of me (thats why I now fly something bigger than a C152). Sorry if touched a nerve but all people must have a back up plan if things don't go as planned and after all the pub is open until quite late.

[Mace Windu]

THREEGREENS

Yes it is a sore point as I ALREADY stated in my previous post so what's it to you? It's a subject that I feel strongly about. As for you saying that I read more into his post than you could gleen then I wonder about your comprehension skills!! Seems to be black and white to me. He made a statement which I replied to. Nothing mysterious about that.:rolleyes:

Just you leave my freckle out of this and any other perverse ideas you have about it!:mad:

engine out

I agree that 2 CFI's would lead to more problems than it could possibly ever hope to solve. Defend your honour?? All you did was give a sob story of your GA history which many others have and will continue to do in this country. I am curious to see if you agree or disgaree with my argument made clearly above? You seem to have side stepped it altogether:rolleyes: If you make an accusation or statement then be prepared to back it up.

[engine out]

To cover the point about fuel yes as an instructor I agree that it is very important for a student to fuel an aeroplane and work out how much fuel is required etc. However if a private hirer (note: already has some experience in filling aircraft and face it the facilities at WOL are not that hard to work) and is running late and asks if there is a specific pre-calculated amount in the aircraft or if not could it be filled to that level, I don't think that is too hard to organize (especially when a company may employ somebody to tend the bowser, not saying this is necessarily the case here before I get jumped on). It is the small things that keep people coming back. I think we must all remember once a pilot gets a PPL a flying school becomes semi-redundant if that said person can private hire an aircraft from someone else. if that person flys ten hours a year you lose out on around $1000 or which only a low proportion is profit I will admit, but when that person becomes 3,4, 10 or 20 you start losing a lot of money for the little work you had to put in to it. It is interesting to note that I know of at least 20 PPL's or higher rated pilots that have not moved to the closest opposition once SCA shut down, makes you wonder?

Your other point regards people conceiving instructors will do anything for money is complete bull, many will but many of the students do not understand how low the pay is unless the instructor is unproffesional and whinges to them (I have seen it). However if a private pilot wants to hire an aircraft out of hours it is not to difficult to arrange a key and maintenance release to be left for them and a sign out sheet. If payment is a worry them why hire an aircraft to the same person during working hours.

I do not have a sob story, I love GA i was merely pointing out that I had frequently got my hands dirty in flying for no reward and would do so again. I like GA so much I am in the process of setting up my own business because I am feed up with the attitude that gets pasted on to new would be pilots and fed up of seeing those who have worked so hard to get a licence then just give it away for various reasons.

Anything else need clarification?

[BOWSERBOY]

HEY HOW IS IT ALL GOING OUT THERE. BY THE WAY IM THE THE WEEKEND REFUELLER OUT AT WOLLONGONG (TONY COX) WHO EVERYONE SEEMED TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH WHEN IT COMES TO LATE EVENING REFUELLING,WHY DONT YOU COME OVER TO THE OFFICE AND GRAB A COFFEE AND HAVE CHAT ABOUT ANY SERVICE THAT I PROVIDE IF IT ISNT UP TO STANDARD IM WILLING TO FIND OUT HOW I CAN HELP ANYONE IF I CAN.I THINK GETTING THE PUMP REPAIRED AS QUICK AS I DO WHEN I ONLY WORK WEEKENDS IS A JOB IN ITS OWN. AS YOU CAN SEE IM NOT THE BEST WITH COMPUTERS BUT I TRY MY BEST KEEPING EVERY PILOT FLYING WITHOUT DELAY WHEN IT COMES TO FUEL.

[Mace Windu]

engine out

However if a private pilot wants to hire an aircraft out of hours it is not to difficult to arrange a key and maintenance release to be left for them and a sign out sheet. If payment is a worry them why hire an aircraft to the same person during working hours.

In theory this would not be such a bad idea, HOWEVER in this day of public liabilty and litigation any operator has to be cautious about this scenario. Lets say there are no staff to stay back (for whatever reason) and a staff member signs a signout sheet for the above mentioned PPL holder and leaves the key and MR out for him/her. Sounds ok so far? Then staff have no way of VISUALLY identifying their Licence and medical and no way of determining if that private piot is fit to fly their aircraft! They could be boozed up and there is the golden signature of the school signing them out when they prang it. This is a worse case scenario I admit, however you have to watch yourself so you don't get stung which has happened in the past.

[THREEGREENS]

Couple of quick probs with your scenario.
Firstly, if the school/organisation in question is running their records correctly, they will know whether a pilot has a valid licence, medical, AFR etc etc and secondly, private flights can be authorised verbally.
Surely there has to be a stage where a private pilot can be trusted to do the right thing and not turn up blotto etc?
In over 30 years of aviation, I have NEVER seen a private pilot turn up for a flight drunk!:mad: :D
You really must have the dirst with GA?;)
For Bowser Boy;
Engine out is quite obviously not who you think he is!:cool:

[Icarus2001]

Trying to follow this thread?#@ :confused:

First of all, working backwards...

Mace Windu There is no requirement for a PPL holder to have their flight authorised by anyone. The only possible exception would be hour building for CPL on a 150hour course in which case it must be written in the pilot training record.
Granted, most organisations have an interest in knowing who has their aircraft. However I heard from the lips of one owner that he wasn't worried as the hirer signed a hire agreement with a HUGE excess and he had a good policy. Go figure.

engine out can you translate this into English?

I am not, and very rarely am a recreational pilot, I

[Mace Windu]

THREEGREENS

You show me a school which has all their recreational pilots details on hand ready to go? It's been the norm to check their licence and medical upon handing over the book and keys in all and every organisation I have ever been with.The only exception would be the smaller type schools who know pretty much everyone on a personal level who walks through their doors.

NEVER say NEVER my friend. Here's a tip.....don't go through life with rose coloured glasses boy because one day it will be your downfall. I may come across as being sour but I have experienced enough to know that the world is not a perfect place!!Turning up drunk was an example. It could be a simple "fit to fly" judgement. I haven't seen anybody turn up drunk either but I have refused aircraft hire to a pilot that didn't seem "all there" to put it kindly.;)

Icarus2001

Quite correct for a PPL holder not needing authorisation however as you stated there are company requirements which need to be met. Do not forget also that there are many different insurance policies floating around with different terms and agreements.

To be quite honest I have never come across an organisation which hires out their aircraft to a PPL holder without the authorisation of a staff member's signature. Are there any out there just out of curiosity??:confused:

[skychaser]

Oh dear, I think one important thing has been left out of this discussion. If you run an organisation that provides aircraft for hire for CUSTOMERS why haven't you got someone available to be around after hours for your CUSTOMER (you know the one who pays the money and keeps your organisation/business alive). It's called CUSTOMER SERVICE and many an organisation has failed because of the lack of it. A good organisation that values its CUSTOMERS will have someone available via a mobile phone 24/7.
It's called doing good business and if you treat your CUSTOMERS with contempt you don't deserve to be in business and you most probably won't be.
Engine Out - My advice - Go somewhere where they understand this principle.
Mace Windu - Thank God I'm not one of your CUSTOMERS (you know the ones who pay the money and keep your business alive.

[Mace Windu]

skychaser

Someone available via mobilephone 24/7 for customers at a flying school?????? What kind of world are you living in!?!?!:eek: Wake up and get back to the real world sonny jim. Aint no way I leaving my phone on at night because someone wants to go for a fly because they cant sleep and they expect me to go down to work and open up! That idea of yours is flushed exactly where it belongs.

My advice to you is to stick your head up a dead bears bum. Plain and simple.

Oh and by the way, believe it or not but the customer is important to me but not to get me out of bed in the dead of night to sign them out and fuel their aircraft for a jolly. If you want to be a slave then go right ahead.

[Icarus2001]

Mace Windu yes I know of two, both at the same airfield. One is a flying school. Hirers only need to sign a hire sheet, which has the hire conditions at the top. The other is a "business man" who owns about 5 aircraft, has no building to operate out of and just hires them out. I am not sure what has to be signed in his case but as he has no staff there is no one to do the "authorisation".

On a seperate note, do people have to resort to telling other posters to insert parts of their body in dead animals?

I happen to agree with Skychaser. Many businesses do offer 24/7, but try to actually use it. The belief that it is available can make customers feel loved, even if it is not really true, eg at 3.00am you would get message bank!

Mace Mate, they pay your wages not the boss. Think about it. If you don't want to be a slave, win the lottery.:)

[skychaser]

Mace Windu - Are we talking Panda or Polar here? I fancy the Pandas because they are so cute and only eat Bamboo so the stuff encountered might not be so bad. But the Polars, no, not into seals, mate.
For your information, I worked at such an organisation which had 24/7 availability. It was mainly used for charter, the phone was never off and CUSTOMERS respected the fact that if they needed to they could get an aircraft when it was required. The SERVICE was very rarely abused by anyone.

[THREEGREENS]

Mace, I think you might have lost the plot big-time. I can name several schools right off the top of my head who maintain accurate and up-to-date records of all their students, recreational pilots and staff. The odd exception will be the 'walk-in-off-the-street-type' and that will only be on the first occasion anyhow.
Icarus2001 and Skychaser are both quite right - it's all about customer service and most of the operators that fail in this area usually don't stay in business for too long or they're the ones who rely on 'walk-ins' because they cannot maintain a steady, regular clientelle for obvious reasons.
BowserBoy; I know who you are now and I don't think the comments earlier were directed at you at all; I have not heard a bad comment about your particular service ever but some who work around you could get off their bums occasionally.;)

[engine out]

Just thought I'd let bowser boy know I was no talking about him and he is doing a good job considering the poor equipment he has to work with. The fuelling and late hour hiring are two seperate events though both the same company.

And MACE lets keep the abuse to the minimum, we are all grown ups, hope you don't run a business with that attitude.

[I Fly]

Skychaser, I like your thinking. I'm looking for an employee who thinks like you. Care to e mail me and discuss what you would do for my customers? I hope it's at a price my customers can afford.

[skychaser]

I Fly, thanks for your kind words, Mate. It's not often you get one in this business. I'm having trouble with accessing outside emails at the moment but if you like you can email me on [email protected] - I'll warn you, however, that I'm working in W.A at the moment so the job would have to be a good one.
As for you Mace Windu - Teddy Bear got your tongue!!

[THREEGREENS]

Mace (and someone should squirt you with same),

You certainly appear to have taken a flogging on this thread so perhaps you were a bit misguided in your smug comments?
:mad: You lack of response now would seem to indicate you were probably wrong and you're away off somewhere licking your wounds.;) Take care old chap and don't get too close to any bare bears bottoms eh?:D
Skychaser, you certainly got across to WA in record time?;)

[Mace Windu]

Well it is certainly nice to know that you have all missed me sooo much!:) It's a shame that I haven't missed you in the same way;)

Well just for your information skychaser and THREEGREENS I didn't feel the need to continue on with this thread! Obviously I am dealing with imbeciles such as yourselves who have a fascination about bears and bums (Note that I mentioned it once yet it seems to have struch a chord with you):rolleyes:

What I wanted to say has been said and there is no need to harp on about it. So you can put away your little fishing rods and go fishing elsewhere little boys.:D Obviously you need to " get over it " and get a life:D

I will post when I feel the need to chaps. I won't unlike yourselves banter on like old women about useless things and gossip. My lack of response therefore means I have better things to do than you do!

Thanks for caring though;) :p

[Raingauge]

Wow...what a B!tch fight, I'm all waxed up, shaven down, got the speedos on, so all I need to do now is find out which mud pool you guys are wresteling in and I'm there.

Gee Mace Windu-p arse, glad I didn't come across you through my training, cause I regularly rang up my flying school between the hours of 1800 and 0700 to organise flights and fuel.;)

I've taken note that you are saying you have only mentioned the Bear Bum once. Yeah....thats one way of looking at it, the other is that you are the one who bought it up. The only logical reason for doing this would be if a Bundaberg Rum add came on whilst you were posting and you had a quick flash of (usually I'd say "brilliance" here but now I'd have to say...) grade 4, as I think that would have to be the last time I'd heard someone ( a fellow class mate) tell someone else what they can do with a bears bum. Sorry windu-o arse, just calling it as I see it.

[skychaser]

Sorry, I've been away and only just caught up. "I Fly" I've been here for quite a while so I don't think I am who you think I am and I would say that you're definitely not who you think you are.
No email as yet. All talk no action.

[P.O.M]

I can see both sides to this little verbal war thats erupted here and to a degree can agree to things on both sides.

Where I work we, like most schools, open 7 days a week but keep normal (well almost normal;) ) office type hours for normal Ops. However, all students/customers know that flights can be arranged outside normal hours and we will do our utmost to ensure that everything is ready for them so that going on the flight is as easy as it would be during office hours.
If this means an instructor is required, such as night training, then they are rostered off during the day for the time required by duty requirements :)

Night training flights are usually pre-planned, so unless you are running charter I cannot see why you would want a school to be accessable 24/7:cool:
I have never had or known of anyone that has wanted to spontainiously go flying late at night.

We don't have many instructors, certainly not enough that one can always be rostered to be available at night in case some wally has a brain fart and decides he wants to go flying :rolleyes:

Oh...and before some wise ass says why don't you get casuals and pay them for flight time, we unlike some other schools I have heard about, try to have permenant staff rather than casuals. We will only use casuals we have trained and its usualy not long before they are put on staff. I have seen many threads on here about how miss used casual pilots are and I couldn't agree more.

If a company is going to offer (let alone provide) a 24/7 service surely they would need a few staff to make sure duty times aren't blown. :confused:

Ok.....time to grab the tin helmet, hit the fox hole and duck for cover.....;)

Cheers,
P.O.M :D