Ten Days in Russia.

[Whirlybird]

I'm just back from flying helicopters in Russia. I haven't had Internet access while I was there, so had no chance to post while I was there. However, I thought I'd do it in diary form now. This will be a slightly edited version, since these are public forums. You see, it was an interesting week. While we were there, all aircraft were grounded several times for various reasons. Of course, in such circumstances one could fly below radar detection levels, though naturally we didn't do that. You can also fly low in bad weather - and we did indeed have horrendous weather. I'm sure you get the picture. Anyway, the slight changes will make little difference, but anyone who knows me personally who wants the full version...

Friday
I arrive at Sherimetyevo (can't spell it) Airport, and am met by German, our guide, interpreter, and general person-who-can-make-the-impossible-happen. He takes me to the Novotel Bar to wait for Nathalie, Dutch skydiver, f/w and helicopter PPL, who has been arranging these trips for about ten years. I doze, having been up since 2.45 am. An hour or so later he's back with her and Hans, German f/w and helo PPL, who goes on these trips almost every year. The last member of our little party is Gabriel, French Canadian CPL(H), who's arriving tomorrow. German drives us to a lovely hotel near the airfield, which is about 100 miles from Moscow. There, we have a suite each, overlooking countryside and river, wow!

Saturday
We drive to the airfield. Really busy, particularly with skydiving, as it's the weekend. Loads of people greet Nathalie like an old friend; not surprising as it's her 36th trip to Russia to fly or skydive! I can't wait to go flying, and I do an hour with the instructor, Victor, in the Mi2 (pronounced "me too"), twin engine turbine helo which would have about 9 seats - if it had seats in the back. These are not pretty helicopters - it's big and green and military looking and sits on wheels not skids. It's bigger than anything I've ever flown, and is costing me about £140/hour, including the instructor, the same as I pay her for an R22 solo.
Since they're skydiving at the airfield, we fly out into the countryside and I do circuits there, or I try to anyway. I find it really hard, and Victor doesn't speak much English, which doesn't help. But it's very different, and the most difficult thing is that the rotors turn clockwise, so you use your feet in the opposite direction. I'm just not used to using my right foot that much; in fact it feels rather like learning to walk again! We come back after an hour and Hans goes flying with Victor; then I have another go. This time it goes better; I manage to figure out the trim - essential on a largish helicopter - and persuade my feet to work the right way round. But after 40 minutes we have to go back. It turns out an AN2 has crashed in Siberia, and all aircraft are grounded. Still, I'm very tired, so it's just as well. Nathalie says such restrictions rarely last long. Anyway, Gabriel has now arrived, so we go back to the hotel to plan the week's flying. We're all basically helicopter pilots, so want similar things. German has managed to find a Kamov KA26, so we're delighted, and want to fly that. I ask about the Mi26, and German says it's unlikely to be possible, but he'll try. We all fancy a cross country to another airfield where we can fly L29s (jets). And a visit to Monino Air Museum sounds good. Other than that we'll do lots of Mi2 flying, and I want to fly the Mi8 (about the size of a Super Puma) and the AN2. It should all be possible, Nathalie says.

OK, more later.

[Up & Away]

well done

Will we have daily posts???



:p ;) :p

[S76Heavy]

Great stuff, keep posting it. Can you also give us a ballpark number for the total cost of an "average" trip (not just flying the big stuff, as it were) to Russia? See if I can convince the better half that it would be career enhancing..:D

[Decimal]

Hey Whirlybird,

Sounds top banana. I'd pay 140 an hour for a twin. Is it with Concord or some other outfit?

Keep us informed with the diary!

Decimal

Hit the ground running

[flapsforty]

Happy you're back safe Whirls! We've been thinking of you in chat, wondering how you were doing.
Please post the rest of your "diary", fascinating reading.
xxx

[advancing_blade]

Hi Whirly

Really pleased you managed to get the trip together despite the numbers issue making it look uncertain for a while. I look forward to the rest of the story

[Capn Notarious]

So that the earthbound can see your adventures?

[Whirlybird]

Jeez, didn't expect that much of a response in a few hours. OK, I'll answer questions first...

Up & Away,
I'll post as and when I get time; probably more often than daily though.

S76Heavy,
I was going to give prices at the end, but I can do it now. I got a return flight from Manchester to Moscow for approx £280. The visa cost me nearly £100, including Thames Consular Services' fee (horrendous trying to get it alone, I'm told), and extra for priority service - or it can take ages. Nathalie works out expected costs and pays for everything, including beer, snacks, visits etc; then you either get a refund or pay her the extra. I only changed $20 into roubles, and didn't even spend that. She asked for $1300 (approx £860) but expects to give us a refund as we didn't do a lot of things we'd planned. Flying is £140/hr for the Mi2, double that for the Mi8, less for most f/w aircraft, more for jets. How much or how little you fly is up to you. It's even cheaper than it sounds, as they charge airborne time, saving you about 10 minutes on each flight - and the helos are all on wheels so you don't even pay to hover taxi. I think I spent about £3000, but I'll do a complete breakdown at the end.

Decimal,
Is Concord the outfit that charges too much to tourists for Migs etc? Nathalie and German and the airfield manager arrange all this, and Nathalie makes no profit out of it. She calls her outfit "Fly Russia; their website is at http://home.worldonline.nl/~aeropriz

Capn Notarious,
I don't have a digital camera, and don't know how to scan in photos, sorry. I have a video of the trip, including the exploits I've promised not to talk about in public. :eek: Maybe I can work something out.

Anyway, to continue....

Sunday
It's pouring with rain, and the cloudbase is really low. The only flying we can do is on the airfield at about 10 metres (please don't ask exactly why ;) ) Nathalie says if I want to fly the Mi8 to do it today, as the pilots are only there at weekends to take up the sky divers. It's $450/hr, but I have to try it; never flown anything that big. Alexei, the instructor, gives me quite a thorough briefing, using German to interpret as Alexei speaks no English. He asks me if I've ever flown a heavy helicopter before, and tells me it's very different from the Mi2. I refrain from telling him I thought the Mi2 was big! You have to trim constantly, or the force on the cyclic is...was it 1500kg :eek: :eek: :eek: Some huge number anyway, and I get the point. We go flying, with German to interpret and video the trip for me. And I love it! The main feeling is just size and power; I can't believe I'm flying anything this big. It's quite hard work - no finesse with this helicopter; bootfuls of pedal, hard work on the collective in the hover. But it's fun! Alexei is a good instructor; in fact he looks like he was born in a Mi8. I do 0.7 hours, then another flight in the Mi2 with Victor. This time it's lots better than yesterday. We do circuits at 10 metres, then hovering and 360 degree turns. Victor stops looking scared that I might kill him, decides it's all too easy, and has me hovering round a circle and then round the tail. He bursts out laughing when I can't do it. I then have a break, then another short session in the Mi8 with another instructor. Sasha speaks English quite reasonably, enough to protest when German starts telling me about his exploits in Afghanistan; "No, why you want to talk about that!". It turns out Sasha is a bit of a war hero - was shot down in Afghanistan, then had engine failure and ditched over the Black Sea. He looks like something out of a movie - blond hair, bandana, big smile. He's fun to fly with, likes throwing the Mi8 around at 10 metres, and telling me how to: "right pedal, up collective, forward cyclic, no look at me, look outside". And later: "look ahead but see at side too" - a perfectly adequate way of telling me to use my peripheral vision. We only do half an hour, but I realise I'm exhausted. I've learned a lot already, and only been here two days. 3.4 hours flying so far.

[S76Heavy]

Thanks, Whirly, I'll start saving my pennies then:D

Great stuff. Once got inside a static Mi8, always wondered what they were like to fly.

[Barannfin]

WOW :eek: :D sounds like a great time, thanks for posting. Ill have to convince my girlfriend we should go there for our honeymoon. :rolleyes: like that will happen, me, get married. wait I hope shes not reading this board!
seriously though, keep the posts coming whirly. I sure envy you.

[Whirlybird]

Glad you're enjoying the posts, people. Keep the feedback coming, as I want to make sure I'm not boring you all.

Well, after this things went mildly pearshaped, and Hans kept reminding me that in Russia things never go as expected, but it all works out in the end...

Monday
It's not only raining; all aircraft are grounded again. This time it looks more serious. Firstly, a KA26 has crashed. Not just any old KA26, but OUR KA26, the one we were going to fly. :( Rumours are of a birdstrike or similar, but no-one seems to know any details, as seems to be typical in Russia when such things happen. German says he'll try and find us another one, but can't promise at this short notice. There are also rumours of someone threatening to fly an aircraft into a Moscow building. :eek: As a result ALL small aircraft are grounded, not just sport flying (GA), but military too. Nathalie says this has never happened before, in all the years she's been coming here. But she suggests we spend the day sightseeing and at Monino Air Museum, as any flying looks unlikely. So we go to Columna, the nearest town, for the morning. We look at old churches and other things that would interest me at times, but not now as I want to be flying. :( But Monino Air Museum cheers me up. Amazing place! There are a few hangars, and a huge field full of aircraft, f/w and rotary. The first thing I see is a M12, which is a massive thing like an aeroplane with rotors on both wings. Apparently only 3 were ever built. We go past WW2 stuff and biplanes and Migs and so on to the rotary section, and take photos of the Mi24 and the huge Mi6 and the Mi10 which stands on a high platform; my guidebook probably tells me why. In the middle of it all is a little KA26; it looks tiny, must be the smallest helo they have here. It has these huge counter-rotating rotors, and Hans asks me if I know how you turn it if you don't have a tail rotor; I don't know; do any of you? Anyway, we then go to Moscow for a bit of sightseeing and a meal out. Though Moscow is hardly good for sightseeing; they've had out-of-control forest fires all summer, and the haze and smoke is horrendous. Not a bad day in all, but I'm fed up as I want to fly.

But don't get bored, people. That was the only day we didn't manage to fly. :) :) :)

I have to work. More later (when I get bored).

[S76Heavy]

Yawing the Ka26, doesn't it use differential pitch per rotor, thereby increasing Tq effect to one side?
I wonder how it feels to fly like that. Any Kaman drivers care to jump in? I understand it works in a pretty similar manner.

[Labarynth Seal]

Whirlybird - It makes for excellent reading, but i tried the link you suggested to Decimal, had some probs with it. Could you check the link again. Sorry:)

[Whirlybird]

Labarynth Seal,

Sorry about that. Try the link again; it should work now; it just did for me when I tried it.

S76Heavy,
That was the only way we could think of too. Would really like to fly one to know what it feels like though; I guess I'll have to go to Russia again next year.

OK, to continue....

Tuesday
We can fly, but very low cloud and heavy rain. Airfield is virtually deserted, except for Victor the Mi2 instructor, who is there for us, so we all three fly with him alternately. It's all low level, circuits at about 20 metres, and hovering and so on. We only do half hour sessions, as it's quite intense. It occurs to me that I'm getting far more actual training than if we were doing cross country flying and touring - anyone can fly a Mi2 straight and level. In fact, by the end of the third session I feel really at home in this helicopter and I like it - it's powerful and responsive and lots of fun to throw around. I've done just about everything except autorotations; the cloudbase is too low :eek: And I haven't done the start-up either - there are no checklists, and everything's in Russian, and no-one speaks good enough English. Apart from that I could almost have called this a conversion. So it's good, but I'm freezing cold and I want to do something more interesting. We all feel like this, expecially the others who've been here before; for me it's actually a good introduction to flying the Mi2.

Wednesday
Weather slightly better, we can now fly at about 150 ft, but still can't do cross country flying. But now Nathalie is sick; she has a bad stomach and a fever. What else can go wrong, we wonder. Anyway, we do loads of running takeoffs and landings, which I've never done with a helo on wheels - since I'd never before flown a helo on wheels. Victor has stopped panicking, and doesn't hover over the controls as he used to with me. As he used to with everyone; we've all generally agreed that it isn't just the language problem - Victor will never make a good instructor; he's far too nervous. His constant excitability and panic is irritating too; we all wish Sasha would come back, but he's usually only here at weekends. Anyway, I must be improving, as Victor is starting to relax and make jokes, and tells me: "You fly very good today".

Thursday
The weather has improved, and Nathalie is better!! :) :) :) Life is wonderful!!! Maybe we can go to Kaluga and fly jets. But it turns out we can't. They aren't operating there due to the bad wx and airspace closures, and don't want to gear up their whole operation for three people who want to fly half an hour each. Still, maybe we can do a long cross country? No, in Russia you need to file a flight plan, or the equivalent, 24 hours in advance, to fly outside your own area. So we're limited to the local area, but at least we get off the airfield and do some Real Flying. We fly out to the river and do some approaches and landings to tiny little sandy islands in the middle of it. The enforced intensive training has stood me in good stead; I really feel I know this helicopter now. Victor never goes near the controls, and again tells me: "you fly very good today". In the afternoon session Victor shows me an autorotation at last; it seems like this helo really comes down fast. He doesn't ask me to try it, and without clear instruction in English I'd really rather not. In the next session we go to some confined areas - little clearings in the forest. It all goes really well. When we finish everyone piles in the back and I get to fly us back to the hotel, landing on the driveway, great fun. Victor disappears off, to get the helo back to the airfield before sunset. We watch a video in the evening, and I nearly fall asleep; I'm knackered from so much flying. But the forecast is quite good, and I'll really enjoying it all.

OK, need time for the next posts, as Friday and Saturday I did LOTS! Watch this space.

[sierra-papa]

keep it coming Whirlybird, you are definately not boring your audience. 5 Years ago I almost decided to do my CPL(H) over there. Prices then were even cheaper.
I have been told that you make hover turns in a KA26 by temporarily slowing down one of the rotors... not quite sure though, will be interesting to see if somebody knows.
sp

[pilotwolf]

Yep keep it coming!

Really regretting I couldn't raise the money to come with you. How early next year are you planning a return visit??!!

Anybody want to buy my 3 bed house with garage and large gardens in Sussex! Offers in region of £190k :D

In general how safe did you feel in country as it were and whilst in the air? I guess ATC comms was in Russian? If so was it not unnerving no having the situational awareness you would normally be used to?

[Whirlybird]

Friday
Sun is shining, everybody's healthy, airspace is open. But we still can't go to Kaluga. And although we were promised two Mi2s and two instructors today, Sasha has disappeared and no-one can get hold of him. Well, this is Russia. However, the LET 410 pilot is there, so I decide I might as well have a go in that. If I can't fly a jet, a 24-seater twin aeroplane with retractable gear, variable pitch prop etc, will have to do. Not sure what it compares to back here, but it looks BIG. And it's only about £230/hr. Since this is the wrong forum, I promise to only tell you about it briefly!! I get another briefing with an interpreter, and explain that although I have 200 f/w hours, I only have 4 hours in the last year, and I've never flown anything bigger than a C172. :eek: The instructor asks if I want training or just to fly/play, and I say training. So up we go and he throws a lot of stuff at me about flap limiting speeds and gear limiting speeds and so on. We do a few MASSIVE circuits, then he asks if I want to fly in the cloud. Well, might as well get really overloaded, I think, and say I do. It's all fun and good experience, and feels a bit like a mini-airliner. But after the helicopters, I feel like a manipulator of controls rather than a pilot. I nearly manage the last landing on my own, and get charged for the 52 minutes airborne time, although it was about an hour and a quarter from engine start. A bargain, if you like that sort of thing. Looks good in the log book though. After we've landed all airspace is closed for an hour or so as a Mi24 has crashed, so we have lunch, then it opens again. This apparently is normal - the earlier day-long closures weren't. Though this number of crashes aren't normal, they tell me; it's a bad week. Anyway, I go up with Victor, and do precision approaches to the circle on the runway. After I do three of them perfectly he directs me to a teeny weeny little raised pinnacle, and tells me to land there. So I do, trying desperately to remember exactly where the wheels are. :eek: Victor again tells me: "you fly very good today". This time I agree; I know my flying has improved this week - I never felt really comfortable with confined areas before. Later I decide to have a final flight in the Mi8, since I might never get to fly a monster like that again. With yet another instructor, whose name I've forgotten, we do a bit of cross country, and some confined area landings at little forest clearings, and towering takeoffs. The helo shakes like mad on approach, I wonder about vortex ring, but I'm not going all that slowly. I ask about it, and I'm told for that sort of helo it's normal. I ask why, but no-one's English is quite up to telling me; the instructor mentions aerodynamics and changing airflow, then gives up. Does anyone else know? Anyway, he tells me my flying is "super". I start to believe I know how to fly. (Read Saturday's post; I changed my mind!). I like the Mi8, but I prefer the Mi2, which I'm beginning to feel I know very well now.

Saturday
Sasha is here! Hans and I are ecstatic. No more nervous Victor, and everyone can fly as much as they want to. Gabriel is happy to fly with Victor; Hans and will take turns with Sasha. I start in the Mi2, and we head towards the river, with me trimming it perfectly and flying almost hands off. Sasha directs me to a smallish confined area; I land, do a towering takeoff, no problem. I wait to be told that I fly good, or something similar. But Sasha is not Victor. I do get a compliment, but not in the way I'd expected. Instead Sasha points to a teeny weeny clearing in the middle of a massive area of forest, and tells me to land there. It looks barely big enough for the helicopter. I try to descend, but have to stay high to see it. The only way is to come in at 200 metres over the trees, and descend vertically. But if I come in straight, into wind, I can't see it; I have to keep it on my left, looking underneath me as I go. Sasha explains all this in ideosyncratic but perfectly comprehensible English, and I try it. But I'm struggling, with hardly any leeway for error, and those trees look awfully close. However, Sasha doesn't seem at all concerned. He sits there chain smoking, opens the door to flick out the ash, and the door is whipped out of his hand. He grabs at it vaguely, misses, so he leaves it swinging. I blame this for the trouble I was having hovering steadily enough to try and land, on what now turns out to be sloping ground. I decide at least I have a way out ahead...and then I see the power lines. :eek: :eek: :eek: I finally nearly land it, but can't seem to manage quite enough right pedal in the strong wind. Sasha's way of showing me what he means by right pedal is to take control, put in full right pedal, take us up vertically in a spiralling turn to 200 metres, and hand over to me to try again. Is this guy insane, I wonder. Or just an extremely competent helo pilot. I decide probably both. And I suppose after Afghanistan and ditching on the Black Sea, he's hardly likely to be scared by a somewhat inexperienced British R22 pilot. Anyway, I finally manage to land, though I'm shattered, and Sasha laughs at my sweaty palms, telling me to relax. When we leave, Sasha is telling me to move forward when we've barely cleared the power lines. Has I seen them, I start to wonder. Of course he has, but he's happy to clear them by a few inches, while I prefer a couple of feet at least. Anyway, we go to a slightly easier spot, and he shows me exactly how to do it, and where to look. He laughs at my attempts, but with me, not at me. This guy is a lot of fun to fly with, and a fantastic instructor. I wish I could spend more time flying with him. When we leave I take off into wind, and he looks at me like into wind takeoffs are an alien concept. I think I just learned a whole new way to fly helos. Maybe I should join the Russian army!

Hans goes next, and does low flying along the river. I ask Sasha if I can do that. Well, I've heard stories of some people flying at 5 metres, and flying under the bridges, but of course that's illegal even in Russia, so of course we don't do it. ;) The legal minimum is 50 metres, so we do that, still having to avoid bridges and power lines and so on. German comes along and videos the trip.

When I get back the Yak 52 pilot is there, so I decide to have half an hour in that. I don't want to do aerobatics, it makes me airsick, so we just fly it, but after all the stuff I've been doing with Sasha it's a bit tame. Still, I like flying anything. And I have so many f/w types now that my log book looks as though I can actually fly them, which I barely can.

One interesting point; I ask Sasha, who flies both the Mi2 and the Mi8, which he prefers. He says the Mi2 is only for training, the Mi8 is...well, he implies it's a real helicopter. Interesting that the Russians view the Mi2 the same way that we look at the R22.

So that was it. We left in the late afternoon, to spend the night in a hotel in central Moscow, did a bit of shopping, had a final meal out together, and left the following morning on our separate flights. I'd flown about 13 helicopter hours, and I only need another 14 to reach the 300 needed to do the instructors course. This was hour building, not a holiday, honest!!! But it really was fun. And I want to do the whole thing again!

That's about it for the diary; I'll post costs, hours etc in more detail when I've time.

pilotwolf,

If I go next year, it will be late in the year. I'm hoping to do the instructors course about March, and then maybe even get some work, ie paid to fly!!! Nathalie doesn't expect to be taking another trip before June at the earliest. All of this depends on a family property, of which I own one-sixth, being sold at the end of this year, and how much it goes for. I need that money for both the course and anything else.

I felt quite safe there. I've been in Russia before; I took the Trans-Siberian Express right across the country a few years back. So it wasn't completely unfamiliar. I can just about read the Russian alphabet, and know a few words, which helps - though speaking more would be a good idea. But I just left the radio to the instructors, and concentrated on the flying. I found it harder having instructors who couldn't speak enough English for me to understand what to do, or what I was doing wrong, or whatever. It's not ideal from that point of view, and occasionally is quite frightening...but only occasionally. But I guess I don't scare easily.

If she has time, Nathalie can take trips with a minimum of four people, including herself. What I'd really like to do is get a group together, to tour by Mi2. We could take either one or two helos, depending on how much flying we all want and how much we want to spend. We could go to different airfields, and fly what they've got there, and do some sightseeing too. Of course, being Russia, plans might go awry, as you'll have realised. And accommodation could be very basic in some places; we had a good hotel, but they don't have those everywhere. It would have to be people who are adaptable and don't worry about stuff like that; who are prepared to take whatever comes. Is anyone interested, in principle anyway?

[Whirlybird]

Here are promised prices etc:

11.2 hours in Mi2 @ $220 = $2464
1.9 hours in Mi8 @ $440 = $ 836
0.9 hours in LET 410 @ $350 = $315
0.5 hours in Yak 52 @ $170 = $85
Total spend on flying = $3700 (£2470 approx).

Return flight from Manchester to Moscow = £280 approx.

Accommodation, travel, guides, meals etc etc - $1300, small refund expected, so around £800.

So you could assume £1000-£1200 for a holiday, plus the cost of the flying.

Or looked at another way:
If I consider the helicopter hours as hour building, then I could say it cost me £900 above the actual flying costs, since I have to eat etc at home. This equates to £60 /hr extra for the Mi2, and £120/hr for the Mi8. This would mean the Mi2 cost about £200/hr (roughly the same as dual in an R22 here), and the Mi8 about double (same as B206 here?). Of course, if you flew more, those numbers would come down. And with better weather, I could have done 20 hours without too much effort.

Either way, I reckon it's a good deal. And usually you should get better weather and less hassles than we did, though of course that's not guaranteed.

Other points:
You can't legally fly solo unless you speak Russian. But it's been done, for short periods. Not on this trip though.

The others all had Russian licences; not sure how you get them though. Seems to be a bit vague - do enough flying, and your instructor can give you one, I think!

You can also do sky diving. I had considered a tandem jump, but ran out of time for everything on the last weekend.

I don't know what the CAA will say about the hours, but I have signatures, stamps, receipts etc, and I can't see it being a problem. I'll know next year!

I can't think of much else; ask if you want to know.

Many thanks to the PPRuNer who first told me about this; I can't remember his handle now, only his real name. Wish you could have come too!

[S76Heavy]

great stuff. I will give it serious thought for next year..perhaps start playing the lottery:D

[Whirlybird]

I've just been asked if I'm going to tell everyone about my trip. :confused: So I thought I'd bring this to the top again in case anyone else missed it.

Incidentally, I just found out how you yaw helicopters with co-axial rotors. You can increase pitch on one rotor while decreasing it on the other. But if you do that, the pedals either don't work at all in auto-rotation, or work in the opposite direction. :eek: The book didn't say why. I expect someone here knows, but I'd probably have to start another thread to find out, as the techie types probably won't read this one. Or, you have rudders - only apparently they don't work very well; can't remember why, something to do with direction of airflow I think. Or you have movable vanes on the rotors;not sure how that works. I don't know which method the KA26 uses though. I'm getting more and more curious about what these sort of helos would be like to fly. Looks like I'll just HAVE to go back to Russia next year.

[Dave Jackson]

http://www.unicopter.com/Temporary/sexy_eyes.gif
Whirlybird

On all (or most) Kamovs yaw is by differential collective. The pedal control is automatically switched at the onset of autorotation. This way yaw control is the same from the pilot's perspective. I understand that the transition is a little interesting.

If you want to try a Kamov, come to Canada and do some heli-logging. :)

Dave J.

[Barannfin]

How do they know the helicopter is in an autorotation though??

[Dave Jackson]

Barannfin,

Interesting question.
Here are a couple of previous postings by H-43, on the intermeshing Huskie. Perhaps the situation is similar.

H-43 on PPRuNe ~ July 26, 2001

As for turning when the pilot makes a pedal input, the pitch is increased on one set of rotor blades and decreased on the other by a mechanical mixing system. The resulting higher torque from one rotor system rotates the helicopter. Also, at the same time through the same mixer one rotor disk is tilted forward and the other back helping to turn the aircraft. The only bad part of this system is that at some power settings it is ineffective. This in turn can cause some interesting moments for an inexperienced pilot. I remember the first time it happened to me. As I was approaching to land the nose started wandering off to the left so I added right pedal and added and added right pedal until I hit the pedal stop and we were still turning left! About this time, the other pilot flying with me told me just to add a little collective and the problem would correct itself. Sure enough it did but it was still one of the more interesting moments of my training!

H-43 on PPRuNe ~ September 7, 2001

As far a pedal unresponsiveness is concerned, I really don't know how the K-Max is set up or how it flies. But the Huskie is unresponsive because it uses differential pitch to cause yaw. In an autorotation the requirements change so there is a mechanical reverser assembly that changes the direction of the differential pitch change pushrod. At a certain low point in its travel the reverser output rod will not move at all no matter what the deflection of the pedal input. This complicates thing during low power settings such as during a descent.

Edited to add;

Apparently, there is a, yet unannounced, method of handling yaw for the next generation of intermeshing helicopters, which is said to overcome yaw control problems.

Dave J.

[GLSNightPilot]

Perhaps that new method will be something that does work very well for yaw control, at all airspeeds & rates of descent. A tail rotor.

[Thomas coupling]

DJ: the emoticon was a bit sexist, or have you got a lazy eye;)

[Whirlybird]

Heli logging in Canada in a Kamov....hmmm...it's tempting. But I'll probably just be ever so boring and try and save enough pennies to go to Russia again next year and get to fly one there - along with all the other aircraft I wanted to fly but couldn't.

I think getting rid of a tail rotor sounds like a nice idea, but I do kind of feel safer if my pedals work when and in the way that I expect them to; I'm odd that way. Just for general interest, in R. W Prouty's "Even More Helicopter Aerodynamics", which is where I'm finding out all this (for me) rather obscure stuff, he tells of someone whose first helicopter was a coaxial, presumably in the days before anyone did fancy things to reverse the pedals in autorotation:
"The first time he tried to autorotate, he found himself spinning around and around even though he was using full rudder pedal in what he thought was the correct direction. It was only with a few hundred feet of altitude remaining that he decided he didn't have anything to lose by pushing with the other foot, thereby saving himself."

Arrrrggggggghhhhh!!!! I don't even want to think about it.:eek: Maybe I'll stick to nice conventional helicopters with tail rotors.

[rotormad]

Whirley

Sounds like you had a fantastic time. Would love to do something like that next year. Im doing my commercial at the moment but sounds like the perfect way to build some time and experience..;)

No seriously, if your looking to put a group together for next year, im in!!!

Rotormad

[John Farley]

Whirly

Thank you for a riveting read

And congratulations on what you achieved

[advancing_blade]

Whirly

Check your PM's please

[Whirlybird]

advancing_blade,

Many many thanks for telling me about these trips. I would have said this earlier, but I'd forgotten your PPRuNe handle.

And you should have come!

[Dave Jackson]

Hi TC,
You have to admit, it ain't as sexist as this one. http://www.unicopter.com/SexyFace.gif

:)
Dave J.

[Kiwi Skiv]

Awesome Stuff Whirly:D :D :D :D ,Keep it coming!!!

I just returned from East Timor and managed to get abit of time in the Mi8.You are right that the Force trim really takes abit to get used to.Also it was nice of them to tell me to push the button in on the collective to make it go up and down after I had almost dislocated my shoulder trying to pull on power...

[Bronx]

Awesome indeed!
Fascinating reading.
Good for you for getting up and doing it.

[Thomas coupling]

Hi Whirly, did they discuss the Mi26 crash while you were out there or did it happen after you got back.

How many pax were in your helo when you were flying ccts:D :D

[Whirlybird]

TC,
I can't quite remember. While I was in Russia there were three crashes: an AN2 in Siberia, the KA26 we were due to fly, and one other - and I can't remember what it was. But nobody really "discusses" them much, because it's very difficult to find out anything - it all seems to be rumours by word of mouth, and questions as to why we're grounded yet again. :confused:

I didn't often take pax along for circuits - unless you count the interpreter, someone to use my camcorder, someone who just happened to be around, etc. :D

Before anyone suggests that it's a dangerous place to fly, this was NOT a typical week. Nathalie said in ten years and 36 trips to Russia she'd never known one like it - for accidents, airspace closures, weather, everything. Many many years ago, in my misspent youth hitch-hiking round the world (about half of it anyway), I developed a reputation among my friends for inviting (or causing) trouble; several times I'd just left a country when they had a civil war or coup or earthquake or something. I thought I'd left all that behind. But after this trip, I wonder....

Kiwi Skiv,
I found it hard enough to manage the collective in the Mi8 even knowing about the trim; it's heavy! But that was partly because we were doing low level circuits a lot, so I needed to use it a lot. And also a language mix-up when hovering - Sasha said: "Trim every time", which I thought meant trim every time you want to move it, which is a bit awkward when you're hovering. So I tried, and I was on and off that button every second. What he actually meant was "Trim all the time", ie keep your finger on the button all the time when hovering; a lot easier. I think there's something to be said for speaking the same language as your instructor. :eek:

[Karel]

First of all sorry for my English, guys, I'm from Russia (hopefully your Russian is just a little better than my English :-)) Someone here asked about autorotation on Ka-26 helicopters. I have some hours (around 3000) in this helicopter and have done quite a few autorotations. The pedals work the same way, no difference from the conventional helicopters. Everything works the same way.
The advantages of co-axial machines are: short tail boom, so no worries in confined areas; no worries where is the wind from - right or left; no extra power for the tail rotor, so all power is used in the main rotors; etc...

[Whirlybird]

Karel,
Zdrastvitye i spasiba! Sorry, I don't have a Russian keyboard, so that's as close as I can get. Your English is far far better than my Russian! And it's nice to have a Ka26 expert to answer all my questions. So if you can manage to explain, how exactly does yaw work on the KA26? And how do they stop it turning the wrong way in auto-rotation?

[Karel]

úÄÒÁ×ÓÔ×ÕÊÔÅ Whirlybird!

Yaw works on the KA26 theoreticly pretty simple way: when you push the right pedal the blade pitch angle on the upper rotor increases and on the lower rotor decreases. It gives the yaw moment to the right which in turn with conjnction with the right bank gives you a perfect right turn. In auto-rotation the rotor system works the same way as the conventional helicopters. Basically there is no difference in the rotor theory except the tork compensates with the other rotor not with the tail rotor.

[Whirlybird]

Thanks to The Nr Fairy , my photos of this trip can now be seen at http://www.fototime.com/inv/F593CDIB294163E

Dohhhhhhhhh!!!! I just tried that link, and it gets you to the site, but not the photos. Nr Fairy , what else do you have to do to see them?

[whatsarunway]

more please . . . . .
Ever think about writing a book? All very interesting, Can't wait for the next chapter!!

[The Nr Fairy]

Sorry about that, Whirly. It's because I restricted the piccies to you, rather than making them publicly available before you'd said it was OK.

URL for those interested, without logging in, is THIS (http://www.fototime.com/inv/E1638E72D5AC917).