Low-flying incident at sheepdog trial

[Matt Braddock]

Tin hats on folks.

Someone has caused an international incident by flying low over the world sheepdog trials near Bala Lake in Wales.

Seems the MoD gave assurances that a temporary avoidance area would be in force around the site, but a fast jet flew by, circled twice and roared off.

A shepherdess from the French team is claiming the noise distracted her dog and lost it a place in the semi finals.

[canberra]

you say it flew by. how far away was it? standard avoids are 2nm and 2000' agl. it may well be that he was outside the avoid, dont forget jet noise doesnt half travel. of course someone may have not plotted the notam(if one was issued) or the notam may not have been distibuted on the station, although as all fast jet sqns have alfens so they should get them. then again the fast jet may have been an ex military aircraft now flown by a civilian.

[fobotcso]

Merde!

No doubt a cunning plot to extract revenge for the French delay in accepting British beef. ;)

[BEagle]

How many of the sheepdogs were found guilty?

[Flatus Veteranus]

MOD-Plod is snooping around. Someone is going to have to buy a whole lot of dinners for the sheep-shaggers (and their dogs) to smooth this one over. Fingers crossed for whoever it was!;)

[WhichWay?]

There was a NOTAM issued for the trials, UKLB was 2000ft and 1nm AVOID. There was also a BIDNWS issued with a 'request' for pilots to avoid overflight of the area 2nm and 2000ft agl.

Looks like someone will be in the dwang; don't envy them.

WW

[FJJP]

If what's reported is true, then I have no sympathy whatsoever for the man. He's a pillock and deserves everything that's thrown at him. It just gives the rest of us a bad name.

[WorkingHard]

FJJP - If only your attitude was much more prevalent then this would be less likely to happen. When will it be learnt that this highly populated country of ours has to be very carefully looked after.

[The Claw]

Pity that sheepdogs don't receive NOTAMs, there are mega exercises in that area, surely something like this is bound to happen? Lucky it wasn't a Chinook. :rolleyes:

[Autorev]

This (rather sad) thread reminds me of a chinook crew who not only waxed a sheepdog trial, but noticed a lot of bright lights and associated TV cameras filming the whole affair. Said crew waited for the complaints to come flooding in, but were suprised not to get any. They then watched One Man and his Dog diligently every Sunday and eventully they were rewarded with the footage of their wokka scattering the sheep that the poor shepherd was about to finish coralling into the pen. The commentator took it all very well, simply exclaiming "Aaaawww, now that IS a stroke of bad luck!":D :D :D

[AllTrimDoubt]

..That last incident was an RN Lynx - unless of course we are managing to make an annual appearance in some form or another at these events!!

The first dog was in fact acquitted since it's upbringing in a large litter in one of the poorer kennels was looked on sympathetically. Its story will now appear in a Sunday national rag.

Ho hum..

[Scud-U-Like]

I think the issue here is one of flight safety, rather than the disruption of a sheepdog trial. If, and it's a big if, the capt in question did breach the avoidance without good cause, then it's lucky for him that, on this occasion, his straying only disturbed events on the ground.

Avoidances are there for a reason and, aside from the safety issue, the public are more likely to support our cause if we abide by the rules.

Flatus

I think you've been given duff gen. MOD-Plod don't investigate low flying complaints.

[Pete O'Heater]

The RAF worry sheep a lot less frequently than the Welsh, so what's the big deal? :rolleyes:

[motionlotion]

POH,

Ah well, you've put a bit of bark on the bite mentioning the Welsh see boyo.

The Welsh sheep are in fact right-handed, so their right legs are shorter than their left. This enables them to transit the Welsh hills clockwise as opposed to the mutton counter parts across the border who are left handed / anti-clockwise. A condition which at first glance, appears woolly, could very well hold the key to solving this whole dreadful affair.

In spite of being left-handed or the anti-clockwise variety, these mint sauce Bahahs, were in fact on relatively flat ground. Couple this with the fact that their natural tendency is to roll to the shorter leg, they would have been tracking south over the field. Now I could go on at length, explaining the ins and outs of anti-clockwise roll against the Centre of Buoyancy change with the down slope varible but I just don't have the time.

In brief:

FJ approaching from the south (at whatever speed), seeing large-ish earth-bound crowd, initiates right-hand orbit to get a better look.

Factor 1. Clockwise aerial presence with associated noise.

Highly trained anti-Vichy Virgin look-a-likes, preparing sneak pack attack on unsuspecting sheep dog.

Factor 2. Uneven ground roll with anti-clockwise thrust i.e. The Penguin Factor.

We have now reached what was to be the undoing of this thread.

Factor 3. They looked up

From this point all was lost in a haze of wool, dog hair, grass, wooden splinters (from whose sitting on the fence), double barrelled names and a touch of garlic.



Conclusion: If only he had approached from the north none of this would have happened and the whole affair could have been avoided

- pun what pun?

[Chinook]

Price of freedom Rover .....

get over it

[Prick 112]

Fact 1: this shouldn't have happened.

Fact 2: it did, but will serve as an (obvious) reminder to all aircrew of the (obvious) repercussions of infringing NOTAMs. Especially twice.

Opinion: there are a number of reasons why this could have happened, but at the end of the day this lad will probably be putting his life on the line in hotter places than Blighty in the not-too-distant-future, the Sun will be calling him a hero, public opinion may well turn against him if the war becomes drawn out, etc.

BOTTOM LINE: pilots like this are earning our freedom, and some French **** is miffed because her pooch stuffed a bloody SHEEP-DOG competition. Well, I'm sorry Mme Zob, but a sense of reality and scale wouldn't go amiss here.

Rant out. :mad:

[motionlotion]

Prick


That must make it alright then?

[Jackonicko]

As a mere PPL I wouldn't presume to question NOTAMs and 'avoids'.

But isn't there a difference between a technical infringement of a NOTAM imposed for PR/noise reasons and something which genuinely poses a real flight safety hazard?

Is there any suggestion that what this poor clot did was actually dangerous?

I do think it's to your great credit, as military aviators, that you are not gathering around and 'protecting' or condoning such breaches by 'one of your own' since it's a stark demonstration in your belief in doing the right thing and playing by the rules. I'm not being sarcastic - it's far from the kind of covering-up that happens in other professions.

[Background Noise]

Pee-Rick,

Are you sure of your FACTS? I hear rumour that it was actually above 2000 ft and therefore outside the NOTAM.

Perhaps more time could be spent coming up with more effective avoid dimensions, 2000 ft vertically is hardly going to prevent noise.

[Prick 112]

motionlotion: no, not alright, but hardly worthy of the comments "He's a pillock and deserves everything that's thrown at him" and "this highly populated country of ours has to be very carefully looked after" (this last one's particularly ironic, donchathink?). It's just a shame that to err is criminal, when our boys and girls are trying to do as professional a job as possible. Sure, if it's negligence, throw the book at him/her.

Background Bleat: no, only he/she and whoever's watched the HUD tape can be sure of the FACTS. 1999ft = career diminishing, 2001ft = bollocking, not that it would make the slightest difference to Mme Questcequecestlefcuk's pooch. I assume by "more effective avoid dimensions" you mean "larger". Less airspace = more infringements.

[flexy won]

Might I be so bold as to suggest that sheepdog owners adopt a more professional approach, in line with the military aviators.

All HM Forces work to a 'train hard, fight easy' philosphopy and in doing so push themselves during training; this is assessed during exercises and war. This will, of course, involve accounting for the unlikely and the unexpected.

So, if these are sheepdog 'trials' and this is the pinnacle of showing their prowess ,they might just expect to have some environmental noise or distraction. This only further demonstrates how well the owner and their dog is prepared.

If a level playing field for all participants is what they're after, they could always apply for more frequent flypasts.

[Jackonicko]

The dog was used to the noise of le Mirage IV, so the hushed whisper of a Tornado naturally put him off......?

[Kittty125]

Scud,

Actually HQ P&SS do investigate low flying complaints but I understand that the perp has already admitted his liability to his boss.

[Legalapproach]

Interesting perspective on a/c noise. Have just spent a week staying at Loch Choire in the Highlands. Occasional Tornado trundles down the Loch at between 250 and 500' 420Kts. Resident deer largely undisturbed. On the Monday a Puma went overhead at about 4000' and the deer took off. Mind you we could hear it for a good five minutes before it went overhead.

Incidentaly the ghillies are very unimpressed with todays RAF. They were telling me stories about how afew years ago, when the Navy flew them, Buccs would fly across the Loch so low that if they were out in the boats they would get soaked by the spray that was whipped up.

[Scud-U-Like]

Kitty

HQ RAF P&SS (i.e. the RAF Police) do investigate low flying complaints, but the MOD-plod (i.e. the Ministry of Defence Police) don't.

Good link:

http://www.mod.uk/issues/lowflying/contents.htm

[TURD]

I love reading these posts from the infallible people who throughout their flying careers have never made mistakes and always known exactly where they are. Could you all please let me know where you are (I'll need pretty explicit directions coz I'm not that clever) in order that I might come around and build a Temple to your greatness perhaps start some sort of cult. But then I assume since you're all so good you'll be flying GR7s I'll pitch mt tent at Wittering and light the candles.:D

[PICKS135]

As someone who doesnt mind low flying over his house - it would make a change from 'not below 2000 feet'. I am a bit puzzled as to why these trials were NOTAMED in the first place.
Do these people not have aircraft flying over, when they are doing a roundup in the real world ?
Someone out there please tell me why the area was NOTAMED in the place. After all its only a sheep dog trial, not SAROP's

[DuckDogers]

Well i can clarify three things, firstly it was not a Tornado of any variety. Secondly, it was well above 2000ft, so no infringement there and finally he was playing Green forces on a recent Ex.

[Prick 112]

Go Orange! Go Orange! :p

[anytimebaby]

Now I've never met Prick 112, but I wish the rest of you w*****s had his philosophy to flying. How does ONE infringement of a NOTAM result in such a fevered response? I can only assume that 95% of you have never flown a fast jet, being bounced, with no kit and 2 minutes late due to some effing idiot at London Mil not giving you 'direct' when you ask for it!

The day we care more about sheep dog trials than every day war heroes is the day I leave the country....oh I already have...time to jump ship Prick 112!!

[BEagle]

What a calm, measured response from anytimebaby........

Back in the days of real TWUs, low-level avoids were taken v.seriously indeed and any cavalier "I'm a war hero, you're some mere sheep-sh@gger" attitude would have meant a very swift path to Boss's office, large bo££ocking and possible review. The low-level avoids such as Trawsfynedd, the Llanybyther horse market, the various Druidic mink farms of those days and, of course, the Eistedfodd were treated as 'Viet Taff' AAA sites - you went into them, you were 'shot down' and DNCOd.....

Yes - folk make mistakes, but such a well-promulgated NOTAM is not something you can expect to shrug off without explanation. Of course a swift apology and explanation (sorry- had T6NL caption and was dealing with the snag - turned out to be spurious but sorry, with the only engine possibly icky-poo the woofer trials had to take second place) often nips formal complaints in the bud before HM's low flying plods are brought to readiness......

Why should any 'effing idiot' from Lon Mil give you a 'direct' in any case - just because you're a self-professed 'every day war hero'?

Have to say that, after talking to a very senior mate at Y-Fali International, it is obvious that FJ training is very much more demanding nowadays than it was way back in my Gnat/Hunter era when, for example, just keeping the damn Gnat airborne was a triumph. These days the studes are loaded up far more and generally, it seems, do astonishingly well. Low level infringements do seem to be very few and far between, but statistically are probably inevitable. Mistakes are understandable, but the attitude of 'bug.ger them - that's what they get for living on the ground' is about 50 years out of date and can't be condoned in any way.

PS - Your slighting reference to Travellers could be considered as racial abuse - I know that it's a quote from 'Snatch' but in huggy-fluffy EO/PC terms, it's almost the same as saying that you hate the n-word......

[Mmmmnice]

Nice bit of guesswork/aimless speculation going on!

If he/she did it - plod will find out/gibbet will be erected etc etc
time to take it on the chin in time honoured military fashion. What Soldier A has done in the past, or might do in the future, is neither here nor there.

If not guilty, hopefully whole thing will go away - nice to get a timely reminder of how important PR is - bottom line: no-one got hurt. Fair?

Good point about getting a much larger disturbance pattern from a high a/c than a low one - but only an enthusiastically flown Bucc could almost take me off my bike on the way to Lossie one day!

[Prick 112]

I f*****g hate Pikeys too.

[Pie Man]

anytimebaby

The 'effing idiot at London Mil not giving you 'direct' ' is probably for noise abatement reasons - hell of a bang when you hit the airliner in controlled airspace. :) :) :)

[threepointonefour]

Duck,

I hate to contradict you but the aircraft involved was a Tornado and it was not involved in any Exercise.

All,

The perp (as someone else referred to him) straightened things out the minute this complaint came to light.

The facts, as I know them, were that he did overfly the area but was significantly above 2000'. To all those who think it was a bad idea to overfly the NOTAM at all, I have a question which should be answered with their mind on the continuation of military low flying;

1. If the NOTAM is 2nm and 2000', what margin of error should it be given? I'd suggest 2.1nm and 2001' is sufficient and legal. Anything other would limit freedom of operation more than was intended by the original NOTAM.

[saudipc-9]

threepointonefour,

I'm with you on your last point. You could over fly the NOTAM a hundred times and still be legal.
If it's 2nm and 2000' then those are the limits. Nothing more and nothing less!!

[Background Noise]

Dead right, which is what I was trying to say earlier before being sneered at. Despite the assertion that it was fact that it had happened, actually nothing had happened - the avoid had been avoided.

But perhaps instead of avoiding it by 2 miles laterally and only 1/3 mile vertically, if noise was the issue the avoid could have been 1 mile laterally and 1 mile vertically which would actually be a smaller volume of airspace? That is of course if you think it should have been avoided at all.

[Talk Reaction]

So first the French cripple us with devastating strikes against beef and lorry drivers and now they unleash some barking (excuse the pun, please) garlic muncher and secret weapon - a dog, to reduce the RAF to nothing as we all spend so much time disscussing the "incident" ;)

On a more serious note I am concerned that someone is flying a fast jet that finds sheep dog trials so interesting as to circle it TWICE?? Most ammusing...

By the way Legal Approach, How is the Bothy (if that's where you were?)

[Legalapproach]

TR

I was staying in the Lodge at Loch Choire in Sutherland. Not sure if its the same place as I know there is a well known bothy at somewhere called something like Loch Choire Mhoir(?).

Incidentaly on the estate is a hill called Ben Kilbreck(Spelling?). A military aircraft struck the hill circa 1955 and there is a memorial on the ridge. The hillside is still littered with aircraft wreckage and I wondered if any one has any info on the a/c type.