I`m 33....Should I go for ATPL now

[apple]

Hello

I`ve been dwelling on this for a year now......

I`m 33 and would like to go intergrated for ATPL but am not sure whether I can get an airline position due to my age and market situation.

Please be honest and a touch brutal.... I can handle it!!

Many thanks in advance

Apple :) :)

[pilotchap]

i did, i was 29, finished when i was 30 , now 31. But i have no job well airline job. just about to start working for airbus, but still hopefull of a pilot job coming up somewhere.

[FlyingForFun]

At the moment, there are very few jobs for anyone, especially new ATPL(f)s, regardless of age. But the signs are that things are starting to pick up, and hopefully will be better in a couple of years.

I think the best thing you could do is not to go integrated, but to do a modular course. Keep your current job, and work part time towards the ATPL(f). It will probably take 2 or 3 years, by which time the market will hopefully be better. And, if you can't get a job as a pilot at the end of it, at least you'll still have your current job to pay the bills.

Good luck!

FFF
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[pilotchap]

nice idea FFF but i wouldnt recommend part time as the course is hard enough as it is. i would recommend full time especally at 33 because time is ticking, also what happens if the airlines start recruiting next year he will miss the boat. But there is a positive if he does it part time, he will not be competition for me as i already have my fATPL. good luck apple

[FlyingForFun]

Good point, pilotchap. I guess it's a matter of weighing up risk vs effort. My suggestion is high-effort, low-risk, compared to your (relatively) low-effort, high-risk. Only apple knows his personal circumstances, so only he can say which is right for him. But for me (I'm younger than apple, but not all that much younger), part time suited me better.

FFF
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[Backontrack]

Apple

I too am 33, I have just completed my PPL and am doing hour building in SA in October. I start a residential ATPL course in November.

I have resigned from my IT Sales job and how do I feel..........scared witless, excited, about 200lbs lighter. There are pros and cons, I feel back in control of my life but there are many things I have had to give up to pursue this new career. Yes, I am already lying awake thinking about spending the £40k and not being able to get a job but if I wait a few more years I would never have done it, so the risk is yours to assess and nobody can give you the perfect answer. It really depends how you view what you are currently doing with your life and whether you can do it for the next 25 years, that's how I made my decision.

Good luck.

[pilotchap]

backontrack i too went to SA (FTC) and also gave up work as an engineer, as you say risked everything, that was over 2 years ago now. I have finished taining i have a fATPL and now back in engineering, currently on a lower wage, but i am moving soon to airbus on a higher wage than before my training so hopefully things are starting to look up. also i am sure airbus on my cv will not be a disadvantage.

[silicon chip]

Hi Apple,

I'm 39 and posed a similar question back in August. I got lots of great advice. Search for my user name and you'll see the post "What're my chances".

I still haven't made a decision since I have a wife, two kids and a cat to support so I have to get a job at the end. I've opted to wait for a bit and see what happens - market, war etc etc.

Synopsis of the advice I got was: do lots of reasearch, go for a full time modular, don't underestimate how much it'll cost.

Good Luck

Dave

[RVR800]

Buy a C172 instead

[Send Clowns]

Hi Apple

The oldest student I ever taught ATPL groundschool to was 42 (I was only 28 at the time!). Market situation is forecast (by Flight International) to pick up in 2004, so there will actually be pilot shortage. Start soon and you'll hit it! Even old b#ggers generally get a break somewhere, according to the people I've talked to who've been in the industry a while.

I would agree that you at least consider modular, perhaps full-time straight through, in much the same way as an integrated course (I must admit I work for a modular provider, but I made the same choice three years ago, and went modular, saving about £12,000 and gaining extra 40 hours or so. I never regretted the choice). There are various advantages to modular courses in addition to the cost saving, and no-one has managed to tell me an advantage of an integrated course for the self-sponsored student, even after I posted a query here.

[avrodamo]

Do it, but do it modular. Dont give up your job. Im 32 and i started a year ago, and i take my last exams in March. All i would say is you have to be totally committed. It is very, very intense study. Big change to your social life, and you need to have the wife on your side. I spend so much time in the study shes forgotten what i look like, the dog growls at me and the kids cry cause they think im stranger !
Great feeling getting there though. If you don't do it you will be asking what if forever

[piperindian]

most guys who completed a JAA fATPL cant find any work in aviation so i guess this idea is not so good. If it was cheap (its not) or short (its not) i would say go for it but it costs 50k and takes 2-3 years. would you seriously invest 50k and two years in anything with a ZERO guarantee of any return ?
in the current job market, the JAA fATPL is a totally useless piece of crap.
you can discard "send clowns" advice, he is working for a flight school and needs your money. Dont fall for the marketing bull**** of flight schools.

[deTrix75]

If you want to do it, do it! If you are dedicated and if you have can stand waiting for a job you should not hesitate. Sell your house, drive an ugly car and eat rice six times a week. As avrodamo pointed out you should not play the what-if game for the rest of your life.

deTrix

[laurie]

Apple,

Lose from your sight and memory the posting by piperindian. If you have any doubt about what I say, then I suggest you click on his user profile, then click on his other postings - I think you should be able to make your mind up from there.....Shades of Ronchonner, but theres another story!!........lets get back to your topic:

The age thing is not critical from what I have read on other threads from folk of around that age - indeed in some cases it has worked in their favour, depending on the background of the individual.

Avrodamo's posting is spot on, DO IT, but do it modular. And do your research first. In fact it would do you good to look through Avrodamo's past postings.....but also:.....

I would suggest you look for a few posters that seem to be talking similar language then send a private message to those posters - even get in touch with them by telephone.....a lot more realtime and your learning curve will be better by talking to someone who has been through it...

And do not ever get the feeling that your age is the problem, although I understand why you might think so!

All the best,

Laurie.

[piperindian]

laurie, since you seem to be so well informed can we know if you possess a JAA fATPL in the first place ?
your advice is also bull****, smells of flight school advice.
I think advice should come from JAA fATPL holders.

[laurie]

Piperindian,

You are entirely correct in your opening sentence; I AM well informed.

As to fATPL - I am in the process of securing mine.

then you go on to say, you genius,
"your advice is also bull****"........You may or may not be correct with that. Let the reader decide.

"smells of flight school advice."........Not true - I have never endorsed any flight school.

"I think advice should come from JAA fATPL holders." - I beg to differ, tough guy - this forum is about information between all members - the dross will soon get sorted from the gen.


You have a good night, PI,


Laurie :)

[Send Clowns]

Hahahaha, piperindian, I had already pointed out I work for a school.

However since I don't own the school I get no more or less money if Apple comes along to our school, let alone one of the many other fine schools around the country that he may choose instead. I do not 'need' his business. In any case I was merely passing on the existence of students considerably older than Apple, and the advice of Flight International, that can be readily checked in your or his local library. It was an issue some 6 weeks or so ago. I am no expert in the aviation industry, so am unqualified to advise on my own authority, nor did I pass myself off as such.

I do know a fair amount about flight training having seen the JAA system from a variety of aspects (it is rather unattractive from all, but at least the CAA do their best to assist us) so any practical queries, Apple, feel free to contact me via my profile.

P.S. Apple if you want to talk to someone about the age issue, find Flying Farmer on this site. I'm sure he would be happy to reply to any questions. He was one of my best students ever, and is a little older than you are (not sure how much ;) )

[Ray Ban]

Apple,

On balance I would say probably go for it. If you are the type of person that will kick himself in 20 years time for not trying and you currently have the funds then do it. The modular route is probably best and if you can keep your current job on a part-time basis then that's even better. If you do it that way, it should take you about 2 years or so. Full-time modular courses should take the same time as their integrated equivalents, generally a year to 18 months.

Make sure you have a back-up plan if things go pear-shaped.

Best of luck!

[Send Clowns]

piperindian I note that although you suggest that a none-ATPL holder has no say here (a strange idea in open forum) you do not admit to any licence at all. Are you a pilot, or a troll?

[piperindian]

well send clowns when you speak of impending "pilot shortage" in your first post you are ridiculing yourself. its the ultimate marketing bull****. i wonder whos trolling.

as for a license, yes i possess a full-fledged multi/IR JAA fATPL, a totally useless piece of crap BTW.

[Send Clowns]

I suggest you take up with Flight International if you, in your great expertise of a holder of a frozen ATPL believe they are publishing "bull****", though I'm not sure why you think they would market my industry for free - we usually pay them. I can't see how you can from the perspective of 2002 and no research into the industry predict that there will be no pilot shortage in 2004, but I am sure that the airlines will find your insight vital to their future planning. Please don't let them waste money planning for a pilot shortage that you know is not coming.

Best of luck getting a job.

P.S. I am sure you would know when I ridicule myself. It is generally on Jet Blast, where most of us do so and where your foul language and belligerant attitude would not be so out of place, nor so tolerated as they have been here.

[FRIDAY]

I am curious piperindian
If its such a waste of time why did you bother obtaining it (job perphaps?),you could have saved alot of cash and time.
I know of a few mates who landed a job and quiet recently and last time I checked they needed that "useless piece of crap".
Your obviously relying on you positive happy-go-lucky attitude to land a job,Can you say "Tea or Coffee"?, cos thats all you be doing with that attitude. Are you going to bin that license and continue to point out the error of so many wannabes ways, and continue to make ridiculously immature statements, you are probably better off trying something different, as this is deffinately not the career for you if you can form such a bitter attitiude after some hurdles in your career.
Good luck to you, and change that nappy:p

Come on let me have it.:rolleyes:

[foghorn]

Piperindian,

Keep putting off the wannabes, mate.

More jobs for us when the revival comes...;)

cheers!
foggy.

[jetsetter]

i'm 23 and just signed up for an integrated ATPL course....guess what...i personally feel very old cos ...i know there r some 18 and 19 years old co pilot who's enjoying their job in one of the regionals in uk..!!!

[piperindian]

Send clowns

flight international was predicting a pilot shortage for year 2000. yes. it makes you an expert in virtual "pilot shortage"

[F3]

Hello Apple - I started an integrated course back in 1998 and there were people of all ages attending. The ages of people who secured airline emlployment rapidly was quite diverse, the youngest 20, the oldest in his mid 30's. I don't think your age is a problem.
One suggestion I have is to attend the PPRuNe Seminar on 13/12/02. I think it would be worth your while to get advice from people who know what is going on and can evaluate you face to face - you will feel more confident with whatever decision you make then.
All the best:D
PS For what it's worth, I've never regretted undertaking my flying course, loved every moment from the first flight to a pass after the dreaded IRT.

[Flying Farmer]

Piperindian

Brand new ATPL piece of c!£p, dont think so, not going to get far without one.
I'm 40 now and through sheer hard work and determination have secured some part time instructing at weekends, 20 hrs flying in 9 days and getting paid as well !! think I'm on my way how about you.
Any one else want any info mail me will be happy to oblige.

Send Clowns thanks. Will speak to you in the week, have need of that reference now.

Andrew H

[pjdj777]

Just to add my tuppence worth:

I started flying at 30, went modular, it took a little longer than I expected but you have to factor this sort of thing in.

Four and a half years after starting, and 18 months after I got my FATPL/IR (JAA), I joined my first airline, had six months of flying a 737 now and loving it!!

It can be done.

[batty]

I started at 33 with a wife child and mortgage. I did the integrated course because as people have already stated, the clock was ticking...

It took me 15 months to get through the course and I was lucky enough to get a jet job pretty much immediatly after finishing. I am now 36 and have close on 1500 hrs and the best job I had ever had.

At 33 you are not too old but dont hang about!! I would do the integrated route if you can afford it since it is quicker and you will be younger when you reach the job market. Another reason is that like it or not airlines prefer the integrated to modular student, right or wrong it is a fact.

If you do a search under my name you will find the story of my training etc

Good luck to you....

[Send Clowns]

Flying Farmer

Excellent news Andy! I'll mention that you need a reference right away, They'll be fighting to recommend you (scrub that - I'll write it and get Andy W to sign it. He'd write you a glowing reference but it would be at least two pages!). Well done.

Batty

The integrated route is not necessarily quicker. Had I not had a five-week illness I would have finished in 14 months. Had I not had my CPL over the winter, delayed by bad weather that would have been down to about 12 months, two weeks longer than the integrated minimum.

pi

Look to my first reply to your odious bile. I pointed out I am not an expert, and that I had only been passing on FI opinion. If you know better then surely you have a great future as an industry forecaster?

[Pilot Pete]

Disregard Piperindian. I have an unfrozen ATPL despite his rantings.

I would also be careful of thinking that airlines 'prefer' integrated courses(Batty), who does? It's supply and demand and as far as I'm aware they select you based on;

1. Who do you know?

2. How many hours do you have on type?

3. How many hours do you have on 'big' jets?

4. How many hours do you have on jets?

5. How many hours do you have on turbo-props?

6. How many hours do you have on twins?

7. How many hours do you have on singles?

How you got the licence is 'interview conversation' if you have low hours. What they really want to hear is about your Determination, Reliability and Flexibility.


If you still want to do it then do it. Be determined as it isn't easy, but don't think that any airline owes you jack sh!t. They are not interested in Piperindian sob stories..........................

Be lucky


PP

[MJR]

Get a class one medical first and do a modular course and keep your day job. Its hard work in your sparetime but there is less risk overall. You can lose your class one at any time and the risk increases with age.

Its true the forecast is that there will more jobs available by 2004 however I'm not convinced that there will actually be a shortage of fATPL's.

I started at your age and even if I dont get to fly the A380 I can carry on as a flying instructor long into retirement as long as I keep passing the medical. Which was always my minimum expectation.

;) TTFN


MJR

[airshowpilot]

Good luck Apple! Don’t let anyone put you off if this is truly what you want to do but, ironically, you must keep your feet on the ground. Of course, getting the licence may be the second most expensive purchase you ever make but I still maintain that I would rather have the licence than a porshe sitting outside my house.

I took the decision to leave a well paid job about 18 months ago to work through the JAA fATPL the Modular route. I simply felt that I had to give my ambition a chance before I got 'too old'.

I've just turned 31, its taken me a year or so to get through the ATPL writtens. I have had several disappointing and somewhat unlucky results along the way. DO NOT underestimate the exams, especially if you have been out of study for a while!

I would recommend doing it piecemeal (modular) simply because it keeps your options open. If you have a PPL and the written exams you are well set to make a decision either way on the flying tests necessary to complete the fATPL, in short, the expensive part or you could choose to stay put.

Incidentally, I have been reassured that many airlines may prefer a more worldly-wise pilot in the right hand seat. I, personally, am totally committed now to a future in commercial aviation – it can be tough, but I’m looking forward to getting my chance some day soon. It certainly takes a lot of determination. But if you are positive, enthusiastic and personable why wouldn’t the airlines want to employ you?
:)

[batty]

P Pete who prefers an integrated to modular FATPL?

Well at the moment Ryanair for a start, they are one of the few airlines hiring low airtime pilots at the moment and they are approaching schools such as Oxford and Shrienner (sorry about the spelling!!) looking for integrated students. That was howw I got my job. They are not approaching new FATPL pilots.

BA a while back were thinking of looking at integrated students from Oxford who had been recommended by the school.

I am not saying that you will have an easy time getting a job as an integrated student but I do believe it may be slightly easier than the modular route.

Dont take me wrong I dont think that I am any better than a modular student however airlines will continue to favour the integrated over the modular because they know the schools involved and have experience of the training standards set by the schools. Its a fact like it or not.

[piperindian]

more than 80% of the guys who graduated from major schoolds last year with a JAA fATPL couldn't get any job in aviation.
either the likes of P pete are stupid or uninformed.

[Pilot Pete]

I take your point about Ryanair and BA, but let's face it they have taken and still will take plenty of guys and girls who did not do integrated courses. They are two airlines out of 50ish carriers in the UK. I agree that one may get some post course assistance from the integrated schools, but I must admit that I would feel that that has to be looked at as a bonus when considering one's training route rather than a given. In the end, whichever route you take you end up with the same licence and making contacts within the industry during your training is the best way of hearing about jobs and getting your cv looked at.

Good luck to you all, whichever way you go.

PP

ps. To Piperindian,

At no point did I suggest that anyone gaining a licence in the recent past or present was finding it easy to get jobs. I personally don't think modular or integrated students stand much chance of securing a job with low hours for some time to come and war in the Gulf will only make things worse. Even when the market is good for hiring it is not easy to get a first break with low hours. The point is that guys who are starting training now will be gambling just the same as anyone else has in the past. Perhaps you were the one who went down the road of spending an awful lot of money without knowing all the facts. You have no-one to blame except yourself for giving up, life is full of 'downturns' just when you don't need them, but happily for those who come through it keeping positive and making it happen they will eventually succeed. It just takes longer than desired and proves that they are the best. So at least one less bitter and twisted frozen ATPL holder acting as competition for the winners!! Good luck to the rest of you, but don't give up the day job just yet.

[BIG MISTER]

Go for it mate ....... 1960's was a good time to be born.....just !

Send clowns - keep it up mate

Pilot Pete - Thanks to the top advice yet again !!!

Pipertwat......go away mate your very very very zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz



:D :D :D

[HolyMoley]

Don't listen to piperpillock - I gave up my job in 1990 to get my CPL: then there was the Gulf war, then Air Europe went bust, then Dan-Air, then there was a recession. They seemed like dark days but I got my first turboprop job in 1994 and have enjoyed flying the 737 and A320 since then. It was still the best move I ever made and I certainly wouldn't like to be sitting in an office now, looking out of the window thinking ''I wish I'd ...........''

[no sponsor]

I'm 31 and have decided to start an integrated course in about 12 months time (next Oct). I have lots of options open, but due to my age, the age when I will 'graduate' I feel the integrated option is more suitable for me. I already have a PPL, night and IMC, but feel the integrated course will be the added bonus for me. I've been out of Uni for a long time, and want the atmosphere of the integrated course to get me through.

I will tag on an instructors course at the end, and fully expect to be a instructor for more than 12 months, but should then have reached something in the region of 800 hrs in order to get my first flying job (which will be when I'm about 34/35). That's 20 years for the career.

[Pilot Pete]

No Sponsor

I would think that most of us will be working beyond 55 by the time we get there..................view that whichever way you will!!!

PP

[Send Clowns]

Batty

BA looking was nothing to do with modular/integrated - it was all contacts, which the integrated schools had through their sponsored students, but they were broadening into other schools. I know this because they were also considering students from SFT which only ran modular courses. I know one that would probably have been offered a place (then would have lost it in September) had she passed her IR first try.

no sponsor

Considering your current hours will not cut the integrated course, you will be paying a premium of around £20,000 for the integrated course over the modular. Many modular courses are based in the same classroom environment as integrated, often taught by exactly the same instructors. Since all are approved the instruction is in any case of equal quality.

If all else fails (as it can on either route) £20,000 will buy an awful lot of private tuition.

The time taken on a modular course need not be any longer than an integrated.