RBA Tonga contract

[MacDath]

Any RBA crews considering volunteering for this contract, be advised that Flight Ops management is offering much lower expense money than our normal rates. It will work out to about two thirds of existing allowances.

This will be on a volunteer only basis and they cannot roster anyone to go without breaching the existing contract.

Perhaps this is a sign of times to come if anyone accepts these terms as they'll be bound to try the same thing elsewhere. Think carefully before signing on for this.

[747-400 F/O]

Call me stupid, but who is RBA Tonga?

[slingsby]

Royal Brunei Airlines is wet leasing one B757 to Tonga for 6 months. Hauling Cargo and fish around the pacific.

[line-us]

any one know what the routes will be?...where crews will be based...? will it be like RBAs burma deal where they never got paid for the use of their 757....sounds like a frieght only deal but i thought rbas 757s were pax only.....and not ETOPS last time i checked,,,,,,,

[reynoldsno1]

I would imagine you'll be based at Fua'amotu Intl on the main island of Tongatapu. The capital is Nuku'alofa. Not very sophisticated, but pleasant enough - and the fish is very good!!!

Don't know what your routes might be, but Japan is a big market for the Pacific fish industry, as is Australia and New Zealand

[Big Kahuna]

Funny, not one of the above post is very accurate.

Jerry or 2 holer, can you help. B wildman?

[Borneo Wild Man]

I'll believe it when Im sitting in the loaded hog(thats in AKL by the way)sucking back a cold one........till then ? ? ?
If it happens maybe I could use your boat Big K.Happy hunting that giant trout!

[Gerry Lopez]

Big K,

I agree with the esteemed last poster!
Believe it when I see it.

[Big Kahuna]

Gerry Lopez, long time no hear. Good to see you are still out there.

Auckland base would be nice though, wouldn't it.

Here's hoping.

[tottenkopf]

One things certain MacD, Fox would never have allowed this.

I've always been thankful he outlasted me at RBA, good luck.

[b777900]

maybe, for those who volunteer to work for less allowances, their contract should be amended to accept less allowances for the remainder of their time with rba, thus not ruining it for everyone. :) :( :mad:

[Blacksheep]

But surely the allowances paid in Brunei are to compensate for the disadvantages of being in Borneo? Why should those living in Auckland receive the same allowances as those living in Bandar Seri Begawan and facing a greater cost of living and tougher social and living conditions?

The whole point of being an expat is that you are financially compensated for living and working in an inconvenient environment.

If I were privileged to live and work in Auckland I wouldn't expect to receive any extra allowances at all - especially if I was a Kiwi or an Aussie!

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[Gerry Lopez]

Blacksheep,

A question.
Even though it is probably hypothetical, as it sounds more and more like Tonga is not going to happen.
Why would an Aussie who is based in Auckland, not qualify for allowances.The guy is still living out of a Hotel,even if the countries are similar.He still has to eat.
I really don't understand your logic at all.
Just because you get sent to work in a place similar to where you are form,you don't get allowances.
I think not!

[Blacksheep]

We're talking about a proposed five year wet lease. For a five year wet lease, why live in a hotel? That looks more like two back to back contracts to me. In a country with a western lifestyle, food, drink and all the normal comforts of home. For our guys roughing it up in Kathmandu with Maoist guerillas knocking at the door, handsome allowances seem reasonable, but not for a five year tour of duty in a paragon of civilisation.

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[Bus429]

Blacksheep,

RBA is still making money (hopefully) and would have factored accommo and exes into their quote. Well, they should factor these items into the quote...

I'm living in a fully serviced, two bed flat with a well stocked fridge. There is an excellent gym and pool within the complex. Far preferable to a hotel and cheaper by $10/night.

[tottenkopf]

frankly blacksheep, you're on mars. stick to engineering issues.

lots of love from all the pilots

[b777900]

blacksheep,

i do not understand your thinking, the slip patterns would be 1-2 months, by your argument that "kiwis and aussies" shouldnt get allowances, because its a western country, then i suppose nor should pilots from the uk, especially when they nitestop in the uk (or anywhere within 1500nm)
the allowance you refer to is the expat allowance, the flying allowance is to cover costs incurred while away from base at the companies bequest (eg food, drink (not alcohol), laundry, etc, etc.
and maybe can be considered compesation for sitting in hotels away from family etc, so the actual crew (pilots and flt attendants) actually doing the work get compesated.
[no offence to engineers, whose contract would have there own allowance structure, or salary compensation]

perhaps they should enginners on each flight too, you can spend 2 months living out of a suitcase with no allowances. glad to see youve volunteered yourself and all your fellow engineers.

the allowances shouldnt be lowered at all (even if the contract was underquoted), they didnt in the past (eg vietnam, burma, mauritius), maybe the management pilots instigating this do not intend to do a stint.

[Blacksheep]

Spent months in the firing line. Army machine gunners bowling over the rioters outside the Yak & Yeti while we lived on peas and potatos three times a day inside. More rioters tried to set fire to the company car with me and the driver still in it, we had to fight our way out and seek refuge in a police post resembling the Alamo. Typhoid, cholera and bilharzia a routine daily risk. 14 hour shifts flying through from Kathmandu to Bombay overnight and back with two flight crew changes; they stay in the Hyatt Regency of course, we had four hours free at Delhi on the return, but no hotel - stretch out on the cabin floor until the hosties turn up and kick you in the ribs. Allowances came to two grand a month or twenty quid a day. Rioters are no problem, the guys up there now are at risk from Maoist guerrillas who think nothing of knocking off the army forty or fifty at a time. They may not be in the valley yet, but its just a matter of time.

War stories or not, wake up and smell the roses fellows, Auckland will be easy money... :D

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[MacDath]

Blacksheep, once again you have been unlucky in the coincidence of your facts with the truth. Your story is clearly a wind up and doesn't even approximate the conditions prevailing in Nepal. Twenty pounds in Kathmandu would buy a banquet so your choice to live off peas and potatoes had nothing to do with allowances.

However, your half serious notion that pilots "wake up and smell the roses" suggests that you think we should accept a paycut without discussion. I have no wish to sound as if I'm a little frank, but how long do you think it would be before they started on your conditions?

B777, you are being wound up. It stems from resentment over contracts plus the knowledge Engineering negotiated this unworkable contract with the Tongans, leaving Flight Ops to fill in the holes. However, you did hit the nail on the head. The instigators of these conditions will not be anywhere near Blacksheep's idea of a 'paragon of civilisation'

[Blacksheep]

Yes MacDath, a wind up indeed, but with a purpose.

By the way, my story's true enough and kindly note that the peas and potatoes weren't by choice. With the city locked down under curfew, that's all that was left in the hotel pantry. Some former employees still suffer ill health to this day as a result of working up there. Its interesting that your viewpoint focuses on what food you can buy for twenty quid in Kathmandu. At the time my main concern was with staying alive. I still feel that twenty pounds a day wasn't fair compensation for putting my health and safety at risk. Certainly conditions have improved up there, but the Maoists are real enough and the threat is manifest. Where would you rather be - Auckland or Kathmandu?

The whole issue here isn't just about pilots' reduced allowances on a particular contract, its about allowances generally. Where people are detached away from base for extended periods it is fair to consider the local conditions in setting the amount to be paid. There doesn't seem to be any consistency in setting rates and some staff are treated differently to others. Don't you agree?

Lets get on to the bigger issue and discuss things like why allowances are reduced by 40% after 28 days in one location? How do you find somewhere cheaper to eat just because you've been in a city for a month? And we haven't even touched upon the removal of transport allowance without discussion.

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[tottenkopf]

if only we could all be heros against the maoists in kathmandu, eating peas and potatoes.

but what you fail to realise blacksheep is no one gives a toss about kathmandu and the maoists.

this thread is about a contract in auckland, nothing to do with kathmandu and the maoists.

give it a rest

[Wings]

This is the first time I've been n PPrune for ages and it saddens me to see how quickly people stry off the subject. If only some minds had LNav.

Latest I've heard is
* 5 year contract.
* First 3 years wet lease last two years 'drying out' with an option to buy at the end.
* The proposal has been given to Royal Tonga Airlines (RTA) and a response has yet to be received.
* Proposed destinations are Auckland, Sydney, Tonga, Nandi, Naui, and Honolulu.
* Requirement for 3 sets of crews comprising 2 pilots and 1 cabin crew member (CSO or Leading) to go down for 2 months at a time.
* Tonga - Honolulu cannot be flown in a straight (great circle) line unless you have 152 minute ETOPS. Since the B 757 has 138 min ETOPS either CAA approval to extend to 152 minutes is required or we fly a 'dog leg' to stay within ETOPS range of a suitable airport.
* RTA cabin crew are already in Brunei receiving training.
* Proposed start of operations in Tonga is 16 December.
* Proposed allowances are
BND $4.50 per flying hour plus US$50 or 60 per day
* A daily 'ncidentals allowance and uniform laundry allowance is also alledgedly claimable although I haven't checked the ERs to confirm this.

Naturally this is all rumour because RBA's sad record of informing their staff about things that may effect them is still unchanged.
BTW all this info was obtained by simply going to the office and asking. There are no secrets in the above info.

[Blacksheep]

Mmmm, careful boys - beware the 28 day rule. That three and a half grand Kiwi a month could be reduced to just two thousand one hundred in the second month. Barely enough to cover an Aucklander's mortgage payments let alone buy food and entertainment... ;)

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[Bus429]

Wings,

Hate to be a pedant, but...
There is no such thing as a straight line on the earth's surface, so great circle applies (great circle - an arc whose radius is that of the earth itself).

I think I've strayed off message a bit...

You flyboys get paid lots anyway, so a you won't notice lower allowance, at least not in the long run!;)

Blacksheep, how's life in your neck of the woods?

[Bullishit]

:p Blacksheep.You are a very very very anti aircrew.I dont blame you for this as most of them are very young and inexperienced.
Bus 429. How are you doiing.Brgds from little .big shortly airlines.

[Blacksheep]

No bulli****, I'm not anti-crew, far from it; I work very closely with them on many technical issues and enjoy very cordial relations with them. I do get upset by the insensitive attitude of certain individuals. This thread started as an exhortation to crews to not volunteer for a specific subsidiary contract based in the comfort of Auckland. This exhortation was based on an allegation that lower allowances paid on that contract may then be introduced at home base. Starting this thread at this particular time is grossly insensitive. For everyone in the company there is a wage freeze. No increments are being paid this year, there is an overtime ban and certain allowances were cut. None of these make significant inroads into technical crew salaries, nor for that matter into my own. For most of the airline staff though, annual increments and overtime pay constitute a major portion of their discretionary income. In the case of the lowest paid, their disposable income has been halved. My fellow supervisory staff have to deal with the results on a daily basis - though the work force are de-motivated and thoroughly de-moralised we still have to get the work done and meet the demanding quality standards of aviation.

tottenkopf suggests that I am on Mars; I suggest that it is the militant trade unionists among the technical crew that are on Mars. You are operating machinery that is worked on by staff, who in some cases are coping with car and furniture re-possessions. By all means talk about your allowances in the privacy of your cocktail parties, but please be careful how you treat such sensitive issues as pay and allowances in public.

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[Bus429]

Blacksheep - good points, well put. I also number some pilots among my friends but some can be a little insensitve (but, then, can't we all?). I'm sorry to learn that circumstances are affecting some at RBA. I suppose there are fewer new cars in the car park?

Bulli**** - email me on [email protected] to remind me who you are.

[COWPAT]

Some points well made by tech crew and engineers. Dont you think that you are all missing the point though. We are all in this together. Downward pressure on terms and conditions will affect everyone, even if this time they are only targetting tech crew allowances. Management must dream of a tech crew/engineering argument. Divide and rule?

Sometimes you really do get what you deserve and if you cant present a united front then you desrve nothing.

[Bullishit]

:p Blacksheep'!Still on mars
!

[Blacksheep]

Good 'ere, innit? :p

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[desmadronic]

It's all academic there is no way the Tongans will pay what RBA are asking in terms of deposit or hourly rate. I don't expect the brunes to realise that they are being taken for a ride but Foster should.
You have to all realise that in an effort to justify their existance the engineering dept. go out and try and get lucrative contracts and in the process promise the customer all sorts of support that we cannot supply. To commit the company to supplying crews for this lease when we don't have enough for the schedule is an example. None of this was discussed with flt ops.
Relax boys, it won't happen

[VH-WASA]

Has anybody heard or does anybody know what the lattest rumour, gossip, development is with the Royal Brunei contract to Tonga. Do you reckon it will happen or is it just another one of those pipe dreams.

[14U]

As of today they still await some money up front. Pity as it would get us home bit longer, but fingers are still crossed.

[B772]

Watch This Space

[VH-WASA]

Mate, I've been watching this space, so what's happening?

[Borneo Wild Man]

;) Mate,the boys have been far too busy waxing down their surf boards than to read the Prune.The North Shore breaks are pretty wild round xmas time.(Nth shore,Oahu.)

[Big Kahuna]

I foresee a RBA 757 turning up at Auckland airport sometime on Saturday 23rd Nov.

[Gerry Lopez]

Get in while the paid surf trip is on boys,
it may turn onshore in a matter of months.
pull in!

[Big Kahuna]

Rumour has it, the deal may be off.. Any update?

[Blacksheep]

Read about it here (http://www.brudirect.com/DailyInfo/News/Archive/Nov02/211102/nite01.htm)...

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[Bus429]

No change in the way RBA "management" communicate with their staff. Where would you be without the Borneo Bulletin or Brunei Direct, the method by which RBA informs those unfortunates about to lose their jobs?

They also seem to have an unfortunate knack of liaisons, or potential liaisons, with losers in the aviation world.

[THINALBERT]

so where does that leave the newly re recruited rishworth f/os who arrived 3 days ago then?

[Sharky Boy]

Just heard that RBA B757 has not taken off for the Tongan lease.

[slingsby]

off, on, off, on , surf's up, tide's out. Is ANYONE going to make a decision.

[Expert]

A/c left early this morning on it's way to AKL via SYD. May be on again!:)

[mcdude]

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/296373/M/

[Blacksheep]

Its happening right now, regardless of all rumours. Things only happen when someoneone makes them happen ;)

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[Big Kahuna]

Looks good, nice to see it in the NZ skies.

[View From The Ground]

Seems like it is not to be seen in American skies quite yet....any news on when the flights to HNL will be starting.

Happy XMAS to all my friends in BWN

[ironbutt57]

Don't think you'll see it

[THINALBERT]

Cock Up on the paperwork front, my spies in the abode tell me. Could be 2 months at least before paperwork is in order to operate to HNL, by which time anything could have happened.

[slingsby]

Apparently, in an aviation monthly magazine recently read, it has been quoted that Royal Tonga are looking to lease another aircraft instead of RBB due to US problems and current operating costs. I think with the US in it's state of turmoil, it may be somewhile before the FAA do this audit. Dot the 'I's and cross the 'T's next time.

[desmadronic]

I hear tha Tongans are returning the a/c due the paperwork cockup with regard to US ops. RBA applied to operate to USA about 6 years ago and was eventually given a class one. ( after the Brunei government entered into a contract with the UKCAA to provide oversight). This application was never followed up so all the other aspects of US operation were not completed. You cannot just start when you feel like it. The US bureacratic machine is worse than ours.
No doubt the Tongans will use this as an excuse to not pay!

[Anz]

Does anyone know where each of RBA's 757s are now? Are they being used on various routes, or are they parked somewhere? If they are just parked, what is their fate?

[Blacksheep]

One 757 is wet leased to Tonga, the other is flying services from Brunei as usual and none of RBA's aircraft are parked.

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