What do people do btwn Frzn ATPL and First Job?

[Cricketer]

What do people do between the initial issue of Frzn ATPL say at an Integrated or modular school and the offer of a first job?

I know people say you should get a flying job but in between? How long do you leave it before getting a 'normal' job earning some of the money back?

I know some get FI ratings and instruct but there must still be some people who while waiting for these to come around have a lot of time to kill?
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif


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Howzat!!!

......Not Out! :D

[luvly jubbly]

After IR, straight into MCC, then 2 week gap before starting FI(A). Just got paperwork back and start instructing on Monday.
So far 86 rejection/keep you on file letters.

Keep on trying with more hours each time!!

[Low_and_Slow]

They thaw :)

[v1rotate]

Try Paradropping. Fun flying and all hands on.

[Cruise Alt]

Not as easy as it sounds V1, contacted all the UK DZs and no work to be found.

[v1rotate]

I realise it's difficult to get a flying position doing paradropping Cruise Alt however, I just left a DZ being offered a job and there 'was' a position available but is now taken. Keep on trying, call every week if you can. It is very much a right place right time affair I'm afraid. I was lucky in that the very first place I called had a position available and I started virtually straight away. Very lucky I was.

Most of the DZ operators have only one aircraft (C206 or Islander) and have only one pilot as they operate only a few days a week. Go for the big ones that operate throughout the whole week. The DZ I was with had roughly 5 different pilots on call/roster throughout the week.

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"Jerry, just remember, it's NOT a LIE if YOU believe it." - George Costanza

[ethan]

As someone who has been there and done it,a quick word of advice. I went and done my FI rating. Although Islander/Multi (Paradropping) time is good if you are low on multi,if you were to go to an airline and they asked you how you accumulated your multi time, they may look at you "a bit different" when you reveal you did some paradropping. To them, paradropping is a more "up and down" experience rather than an "A - in the cruise - To B" experience. Get what I'm saying to you? I recommend getting an FI rating; the quickest way to get your hours up. If you can mix the two of them than even better(an increase of total plus multi time as well). From what my fellow ex-instructors told me who have been there, you dont get to fly that many paradropping sorties (weather, etc.)and you may not even get paid for it. Best case scenario(for me, anyways). After 1.5 years as an FI, I accumulated 1200 hours. Yes, I worked my nuts off but you get out of it what you put in. Get the FI rating, you know it makes sense. Good luck!

[dingducky]

practise saying "would you like fries with that"? :)
hahahahhaahaha
ok i'm sorry
i'll go back to jb
like a good girl.

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A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.

[Cricketer]

I see that people are doing things like trying to paradrop but in the short term just after finishing do you get a non-aviation job whilst waiting for something else?

[luvly jubbly]

Whilst you'll probably get more money in a non-aviation job, as each day passes you become of less interest to the airlines as you lose currency.

Better off accepting low pay and gaining experience to become more marketable.

[v1rotate]

Ethan,

Yes, I have to agree with you that you may not get as many hours doing paradropping as you would instructing. I was speaking to a flight ops director with an airline the other day and he mentioned instructing time as 'exposure' not 'experience'. I guess he was trying to say that instructors don't do much flying (physically). Questionable (his definition) for sure however your idea of doing both instructing and dropping is definately the way to go (if you can get it).

With respect to other jobs other than flying, well, mine was Web design and working in a scungy Amusement Centre with heroine addicts and losers. The things you do...the things you do...

[This message has been edited by v1rotate (edited 22 June 2001).]

[Scottie]

I joined Servisair as an aircraft dispatcher for 6 months.

Good experience and kept me in contact with the airlines.....

[Cruise Alt]

Ethan and V1, After trying just about everything else I could think of (para drop, glider tug etc) fairly unsuccessfully I have borrowed yet more cash and started an FI Course. I simply could not stand my temp data entry job any more. As you say time was passing and I was losing currency. It was a bit of a shock to realise how much I had forgotten when I got back in the air. I hope everyone is right and it helps to get an airline job in the end!

[Freddy Forks]

Why not "sign on"-
You can meet some really interesting folks every 2 weeks?And whilst hanging around the shopping malls you can make even more contacts?
You can sleep in until lunch-time?
You have plenty of time on your hands for writing and sending all those letters to the airlines?
You receive a whopping £52.50 every week?
Rent gets paid?
Council tax gets paid?
What a cushty life???

NOT

[BEagle]

Find out whether any of the emergent low-cost airlines (particularly one you would like to fly for) have any point-of-sale jobs where you get experience working with the general public, say as a dispatcher, on the check-in or perhaps as a short-contract cabin staff member (if there are such folk any more??). Keep your licence and ratings current by your own funding. After you've worked for them for a while, write to the Chief Pilot and explain that you have decided to gain experience working in the airline to learn customer relations and inter-personal skills rather than just attempting to bolster your case by bumbling up and down East Florida in a clapped-out rental C152 until you've achieved 1000 hours. Perhaps make a name for yourself as someone who is prepared to 'roll up his/her sleeves' for the good of the company and its brand image; you really want to fly for them when you get the opportunity, but you're prepared to learn the airline business from the 'shop floor'.

Only suggestions, but if I were a CEO I'd be far more impressed with an applicant who'd worked for my company and was thoroughly knowledgeable about the airline game behind the scenes rather than one who was just another ex-hours builder with absolutely no other work experience.

Best of luck with whatever you decide upon!

[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 23 June 2001).]

[Pilot Pete]

In my experience;

Forget anything thats not flying, commit 100% to what you have chosen, if you're not getting positive replies to your speculative CV's (which I know is depressing, but unfortunately inevitable unless you're one of the lucky ones) do more.

Keep sending in the CV's, with low hours it's nearly always down to timing. Do not, however just keep sending without following up by way of phone calls, emails etc etc TO THE PERSON WHO CAN MAKE THE DECISION ON INTERVIEWS. If the PA won't put you through, try phoning when he/she is at lunch (12-1 and if he/she answers then call back at 1-2!) It worked for me.

It is a sad fact when you have a frozen ATPL with only 200ish hours nobody seems to be interested. They want hours. Hours, hours and more hours. You need to keep the total number of hours moving upward. The hours are obviously graded depending on what you are flying and in what conditions, but do not let this put you off.

My advice is FI(R) as soon as possible after issue of your CPL, unless you are in the throws of winter when you may have a little more leeway as having the rating is not going to boost your hours considerably for a few months. I gave myself 2 months after CPL during which time I went through the 'realisation' process described above.

As far as securing a flying instructor/ paradropping/glider towing job is concerned you have to get yourself about. Sitting at the PC emailing or telephoning the school at the other end of the country is no good. Face to face contact is a must, and you must keep on showing how willing and keen you are. A school is a lot more likely to hire a local guy/gal because they know they are paying peanuts, so if the school is not near where you live you need to show them you have somewhere to stay close by (like a relative) and have no ties which will prevent you from moving at the drop of a hat.

Don't be concerned (overly) with the type of hours that you are getting, just as long as you are getting as many as you can as quickly (from your wallets point of view) as you can. There will always be the 'story' of a 'friend' who was told his flying wasn't 'suitable experience'. Well, suitable experience for an airline is someone with a rating and several hundred (ne thousand) hours on the type that they fly. Failing that they look at others setting a 'minimum' requirement for interview, which may be 2500hrs on heavy jet/turboprop. You do not reach these minimums so it is highly unlikely that you will get an interview (but not unheard of).

Many companies interview with a lot less experience than that, but for direct entry on a turbo prop fleet do not be suprised when you hear of guys/gals being offered places when they have as little as 500hrs TT, but more usually 750-1000TT. MOST OF THESE WERE FLYING INSTRUCTORS who flew round in circles no more than 35miles from their home field with the student at the controls! (Not belittling it, just pointing out what I have observed)

Remember, a company may be telling you that they are not currently recruiting but will keep your CV on file, yeah sure they will, but, the situation changes overnight so keep on at them, you're aiming to be the person who is the first to call just as the Chief Pilot has been given the go ahead to recruit a 'few more' pilots. Also remember that if your CV is on file it's not on the desk on the morning when the above happens, and if twenty others are when the CP starts looking, which ones do you think he is going to read first?

It is hard, damned hard, but count it as part of the selection process, they don't want to employ a pilot who gives up because the going has got a little tough, and tell yourself this; You did the bloody hard work passing the IR, so now do the easy bit of making a few phone calls and getting your a@se on a few days out at some airfields!

Keep you chins up, but above all, get your hours up! You will succeed if you want it enough. Go get it, it won't come and get you.

Good luck Wannabes
PP

[compression ratio]

My answer to the above question.....

Sleep with as many people in Management/HR as you can......thats the best way to get your name KNOWN to EVERYONE within the company.......and when you've finished slip a CV onto the desk.

Forget this crap about "customer service rolls" and trying the back door into the airline. It's pathetic but true that most companies have the mentality to think that YOU as the employee are lucky to work for them and as such should be willing to bend over when they want for nothing in return apart from a sore Ar#e.

Unfortunately the world seems to be hooked on this devotion to the company....what happens when the company has to "cut back expenses" the employees get told to p!ss off and are left unemployed and without a living..I suppose the company wants to pay them back for all their hard work and devotion by doing UNPAID overtime....then the market gets flooded with qualified people scrambling for jobs (pilots, F/A's, ground crew etc)......Fact is there are too many people fighting for all jobs (flying or not) and it is an EMPLOYERS market......

So what do you do between ATPL and first job......DON"T OFFER TO WORK FOR FREE.

But like myself...wouldn't give up flying for the world....and it's this passion for the job that makes us to put up with cutbacks on benefits, salary and other things.

Life aint fair so enjoy anything you get your hands on!

[tailscrape]

Pilot Pete,

How are you mate? Got the house in Congleton yet? I am not in Manch til into July, so drop me a mail will you? [email protected].

I so enjoy hearing the old "bypass the PA at lunchtime story" !!. Fills me with a deep sense of satisfaction.

How r the controlled crash approaches coming on in line training? Don't say they're perfect please!!

Be good.

Matt W.

p.s. I worked on a building site and in the pub. All big money jobs!!!

[Ex Oggie]

Add to Freddys post, free membership of the IPA. If you are "occupationally challenged with enhanced leisure potential" (unemployed) ask nicely at the Job Centre and they will pay the membership for you. They did me and it certainly helped. They were going to pay to renew my passport and help with travels expenses for interviews. Use the system, I hope this helps a few of you out there.
Cheers

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"Press to Test ....... Release to Fire"

Edited for 'typo'

[This message has been edited by Ex Oggie (edited 24 June 2001).]

[NORDIC]

The best advice I ever got was to try and stay in the industry. Not only will you benefit from the advice of people who know properly what is going on ( Trainers etc) however your work experience is all good background knowledge. Remember that being in the flightdeck is only a small part of a huge team dedicated to one aim at the end of the day, and a knowledge of others roles can never do any harm.

I finished my Frozen ATPL, and returned to my previous occupation as an Aircraft despatcher whilst doing the FI rating part time around my shifts. Then, following that, I began instructing two days or so per week on my rostered days off.

The opportunity arose for me to work with a company who I had wanted to work for for a long time, so I am now cabin crew for that outfit in question, (still instructing also) and could if things work out be on the final approach to my first flightdeck job.

The people I have met, and the knowledge I have gained have been invaluable to my progression, and I will always be glad that I have done the things that I have because I have loved every minute of it. If there is a will, there is a way.... just try and do something that will benefit you, and that you will enjoy at the same time.

Good luck,

CHEERS

NORDIC :)