What are possible first paid flying jobs?

[chocksaway]

Hi all,

I'm currently plodding my way through a PPL and working my way towards a modular frozen ATPL. Although I'm getting well ahead of myself, I'm just curious to know what options there are for a first flying job. I appreciate that the most common route would be a flight instructor, but I was wondering what other jobs would be available? With completing the course in the uk I would presumably have a JAA Frozen ATPL, so I'm guessing I wouldn't be restricted to a first job in the UK? Travelling with the license would be my preferred choice.

Your thoughts or stories on your first flying jobs would be appreciated.

[piperindian]

Tesco, MacDonalds... are still hiring i believe. your JAA fATPL does not give you any privileges however

[laurie]

Piperindian and all,

Can we please rid this forum of the usual daft responses along the lines of Tesco / MacDonalds / Burger King....?

As a suggestion it is of no use or relevance to the question posted by chocks away...as humour, well its a bit of a cliche within pprune already, piperindian.

The question is of interest to many of us out there who are patiently working our way towards qualification. It is hard and expensive to balance work with spending the dosh on flying training - all the while sacrificing any spare time towards study.

What would be welcome is real life stories from people involved in the air-taxi / general aviation / turboprop world who are prepared to share their experiences of breaking into their first regularly paid flying jobs.

Everyone should read postings by 'Pilot Pete' and I wish there were more postings of that sort by the many people out there capable of such.

Please contribute

Regards,


Laurie.

[AMEX]

Paid flying job from the first one at the top.

- Glider Instructor (5 Months contract)
-Tug Pilot (5 Months contract)
-Bush Pilot
-Company Pilot- Turbo prop- (that is for an owner's private needs... No, not that kind of needs;).)
-Small Airline (turbo-prop) Co-Pilot
-Single Pilot Air Taxi

I enjoyed all the above jobs but the big difference comes from the employer and not the kit I fly. It's something that took me a little while to realise but that i now perfectly understand.

[FlyingForFun]

Single Pilot Air Taxi
Don't you need 700 hours or something stupid like that before you can do this?

FFF
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[AMEX]

I think under JAR, yes you do but to be honest the company I work for at the moment has never taken anyone with less than a 1000 hours P1 anyway.

[Crosswind Limits]

Amex,

Is that a 1000 hrs P1 or TT? I hope it's the latter! :eek:

[FlyingForFun]

Well, 700 or 1000, P1 or TT, doesn't really matter because it doesn't answer chocksaway's questions about first jobs, does it? Pity - it sounds like fun work.

Still interesting, though - maybe we need another thread, asking people to list all the flying jobs they've had, in order? :) Not sure what forum that would belong on though... doesn't really seem to fit in anywhere....

FFF
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[BroomstickPilot]

Amex

Didn't you have to have separate gliding qualifications to be a gliding instructor? I am sure you could not have done this with only powered flight qualifications and/or experience.

[sally at pprune]

FFF, I think you need to re-read Amex's reply. He's listed all his paid flying jobs; only one was his first. ;)

[FlyingForFun]

Sally, I did read his post, eventually :D - that's why I suggested that we need another thread where people can list all the jobs they've had ;)

However, I've just re-read my post, and realised it sounded a little condescending. Sorry - wasn't my intention at all. I really do think that people's career paths are interesting. Hope you didn't take any offence, Amex - certainly none was intended, I've just fallen foul of written exchanges not always conveying the feelings that the writer means them to convey.

FFF
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[AMEX]

From FlyingForFun
Don't you need 700 hours or something stupid like that before you can do this?


and

Well, 700 or 1000, P1 or TT, doesn't really matter because it doesn't answer chocksaway's questions about first jobs, does it?

Am I wrong or did YOU ask a question I took the time to answer ?

Also, taken from Laurie's post

from people involved in the air-taxi / general aviation / turboprop world who are prepared to share their experiences of breaking into their first regularly paid flying jobs

Well FlyingForFun must have been wrong in assuming that readers would guess how I broke into my first regularly paid flying job (i.e Instructing).

Guess what ? I began by leaning to glide
Wanna know how became a tug pilot or do you see a connection with the first paid job mentioned above ?

Sorry if I sound sarcastic but I thought that spelling my past experiences in order would give some sort of idea of how it can be done, which incidentally, I considered to be an answer to Laurie's post and chocksaway who asked.
to know what options there are for a first flying job

Not being the most talented writer, may I suggest you to attend one of the Gatbash, hand me a Guinness and if you are still interested, ask me to tell you how I did it.

Crosswind Limits
That's a 1000 hours P1 hence most people joining us will have about a 1200 TT. I should also add that about 150 hours twin is a requirement (but a more flexible one).
FYI, many of about 70% of our guys have had an instructor background but a few of us have managed to get that in a different manner (see above).

As for the 700 hours TT to meet the JAR requirements, I am not sure it has been implemented yet (a matter of months I am sure:(). Not all hope is all gone (yet) for aspiring Single Pilot Air Taxi Wannabes (SPATW;)) since I believe our company tend to have a much higher hour requirement for that kind of job.

Couple of mates worked for other outfit and joined with 250 TT.
In good times 250 can take you anywhere from a seneca to a 757 so guys, keep trying, make sure your face is familiar in the eyes of ALL potential employers.

I found that the most difficutl thing to do, apart from saving money to keep the I/R and MEP current, was to be available at very short notice. Most people who work have often great difficulties in being available for the next days job, we sometimes have on offer.
The key is to be available at all cost (do a sicky) because once a small outfit like ours has found a guy that can take a job (RHS to begin with) at short notice, everytime they have such a requirement, the guy will petty much walk straight into the next permanent job that will come up.
Often I have heard people sayign they were available, then when you ring you get: Sorry... you should have told me earlier or next time perhaps.
Wrong answer, I ask as soon as I know which because it is the nature of the job, is usually at the last minute.
Usually though I ll give the guy two chances (when I haven't met the person before) but if I get turned down twice in a row then I ll get in touch with someone else.
It is a little bit unfair and harsh perhaps but most of time when I take someone along it is more a favor than a requirement.
On the other hand, once I have met and flown with that person then I can pretty much say that any opportunities I have to take that pilot with me, I ll do it. Much more fun that way :D

[Crosswind Limits]

AMEX,

Thanks, you are a star!:)

FFF,

The hours requirement that I alluded to may not matter much to you but it matters to me because it's extra money and time that I have to invest once again in my pursuit to fly for a living. In some cases another 2-300 hours P1 can take a year or more to achieve. Perhaps if you have spent as much money and time as most of us here have, then any concessions regarding hours is most welcome! Off topic yes, but important IMHO!!

[FlyingForFun]

Amex,

I'm a bit disappointed with the sarcastic tone of your post, especially since I've already apologised for the tone of my own post. But what the hell - as you said, it's much easier to talk to someone in person. I'm hoping to be at the Christmas GatBash, so I'll take you up on the offer of the Guinness, and quite happily listen to any flying stories you've got. :)

Anyway, let's not get upset about something as silly as this - let's get back to answering the original question, including all information which might be relevant ;)

I'd love to answer to myself, but I haven't got my first flying job yet. So I'll just sit back and read all the replies, and I promise to read the replies closely enough that I don't ask stupid questions in future. On second thoughts, I'll try to read the replies closely enough that I don't ask stupid questions, but no guarantees :D

And CL, you are quite right, the question is obviously very important to loads of people, you included.

FFF
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[redsnail]

Just about to start flying a Shorts 330/360 in the UK.
How'd I get here?
It begins many years ago in Oz.
Worked many jobs to pay for the licence and mortgage.
Eventually got a CPL, M/E CIR, Night VFR, and a grade 3 instructor rating. Had about 400 hours by then. (I was ripped off-not happy about that + did a bit of private flying in my then boyfriend's cherokee. ie paid for fuel only)
Managed to get a part time instructor's position while working full time and studying part time (ie every night at tech) for the ATPL's.
WHile I didn't get a lot of flying in, ie only 30 hours! I did learn an awful lot about customer service and working in an aviation environment. I worked hard and got a good reference.
Realised that this was a great way of going no where fast. (it was not long after the pilots dispute and there were very few jobs around)
Quit my job, left the bloke behind, grabbed a travel buddy and headed to the North West of Oz from Sydney. (About 5000km drive). (Age 28)
Waited in a small town called Kununurra for a job. Got a fill in job washing twotters and bandits for a charter company up there. Did that for over 4 months. Kept my flying skills current. Very important. Did that job to the best of my ability and made many useful contacts. Very important too
After some time, managed to score an interview, pass the check ride and I was offered a job flying C206's and C207's doing scenics and govt charter.
Lots of hours later and after reaching 1000 hours I got a go on the twins (Partenavia). That led to another job in Broome flying Coastwatch Islanders.
I did this for a couple of years and slowly went mad. Unfortunately my IFR skills deteriorate and I pay a huge cost.
Crashed and burned my first attempt to get a Dash 8 endorsement. Now out of work. 3300 hours, mainly bush flying.... what next?
Grit my teeth and ring my contacts.
Ended up with a job in Cairns flying bandits and twotters as an FO. Perfect, starts getting my 2 crew, IFR skills back up.
(Cairns btw is 2900km from Sydney, that's where my family is).
Do this for about 18 months and then get a job in Sydney flying Dash 8's for a Qantas regional.
Things didn't work out how I would have liked so it was time to reassess my options.
Have UK passport will travel. Sold the house and every thing else (bar the Ducati) and headed on over.
Battled my way through those lovely JAR exams and tried to forget about home in Oz.
Passed the mongrel things and then did a type rating on the Shed this year. (instead of an IR)
Took a job in Ops with the night freight mob because I could see that it would help me significantly with learning the UK system.
It worked. (Age 37)

Upshot of all of this.
Be prepared to work hard at ANY job.
Be prepared to shift 1000's of miles. If you won't, someone else will to get those first 1000 hours.
Look at the big picture, a sideways step is better than no step in many cases.
Make and keep your contacts.
Keep as current as possible.

[AMEX]

Awright FFF, the offer is accepted (at the bash or anywhere we might meet).
Good stuff Feral animal and perhaps instead of knocking on FFF's head i could post something more constructive ;)along those lines.
Actually I will....

Post later

[laurie]

Thanks Amex & Redsnail...

Great reading,


Cheers,
Laurie.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Single pilot IFR air taxi flying really is some of the most demanding flying I can think of from a pure "you need experience to make decisions under pressure" point of view.

Few operators will look at you without 1000hrs TT, some (i.e. 200) multi hours and some IF hours.

Rightly so. I wouldn't like to be by myself on a dark and gusty night in a performace limited twin battling icing making an approach to minimums on an NDB to a smallish runway with limited fire cover. An everday occurance to many UK air taki pilots.

The flying instruction path is the more sensibly trodden.

WWW

[Grivation]

It's an interesting point you make WWW about single-pilot multi-engine IFR flying.

Recognised by most in the industry as "the hardest flying you will ever do" -

Yet we send our youngest and most inexperienced out to do it!! It's something that has always concerned me.

For anyone who is interested I was flicking through an operations manual of a company I used to work for and came across their minimum requirements for single-pilot multi IFR -

1000 hours PIC
300 hours multi PIC under the IFR's
50 hours PIC night
10 hours on type

[5150]

700 hrs isn't that inexperienced tho, is it Griv? (Regardless of age)

After all, there's people with less than half those hrs going straight into RHS jet jobs.................

I think it's the aerial-work bods who have it worse, as they don't even need the 700hr JAR min!

[AMEX]

Personally I am more concerned about the type of A/C we tend to find in the Air Taxi business.
I mean as WWW puts it, performance limited twins pistons are the norm. I m probably lucky to fly one in pretty good condtions but it remains an underpowered A/C with a limited de-icing capability and a pair of engines that doesn't like shock cooling much.
Although a serviceable A/P is a requirement for single pilot IFR, this is not always the case amonsgt some operators but sure as hell, it is not a luxury.

I have been lucky enough to operate a Grand Caravan (Pretty much brand new) around Europe in similar weather and conditions I encounter in my present job and I can tell you in which A/C I feel safer (or felt). Yep gimme a single PT6 with an up to date avionic, a proper A/P and sh*t loads of power when I need it and I would be much happier to see the winter coming.
Never had to do that job in a seneca but there are guys out there I don't envy.

Aeroplane aside, Air Taxi is great fun because very often you really get involved in the operation which can be quite rewarding specially when you do transplant flights (my favorites).
IMHO, those flights really make you feel as if you had done something useful that day. Sad to think how what you carry in ended up in the cool box you have to deliver but great feeling to think someone is going to live because of it (I never think they won't).

Also with Air Taxi, you don't really know when and where you will be going next. A bit difficult at times but quite thrilling when it all begins to happen- usually as you are getting the BBQ going-.60 minutes from the call to airborne, including all the things you have to do before a flight such as:
- occasionally determine the most suitable airport to go (the client doesn't necessarily know best)
- Plan the flight (usually 3 sectors)
- Get ready and uniformed
-Drive to the Airport
- File the FP
-Get the Wx
- Pre flight the A/C (get it fuelled if required, sign the paperwork, do the weight&B,...)
- Taxi and phew at last get airborne


So much hurrying usually to find out that once you have landed and readied yourself to collect the box during flash turn around, the box hasn't arrived yet.
Then the waiting begins with new problems like delaying the FP, keeping an eye on your Max allowable Duty, Airport closing times, etc...

Really I enjoy it but I can't wait to sit in a 75 too ;) (That's now that potential chief pilots are supposed to send me an email with a job offer by the way :D:D:D)

[laurie]

.......As well they might.

....Leaving your still-warm threadbare seat vacant for one of "us lot"


Laurie:)

[MAX]

Following in the steps of Reddo here is my story of the pursuit of that elusive first job. I hope it provides some inspiration for all you guys/gals who are looking to pursue this career, are pursuing it or are stuck in that all too familiar job rut.

Please bear in my mind that I am not an exceptional pilot, Einstein nor the offspring of a 'chief pilot'. Just a regular Joe who perhaps drinks too much.;) My original plans included instructing or working in a parachute club but sometimes the dice rolls your way.

5 yrs ago after a working a summer in the UK I returned with enough pounds to finance my PPL in my home country, Oz. By now I was hooked.

I returned to the UK and proceeded to work 2 jobs in a 6month work/1 month fly cycle. Hour building stateside and studying the ATPL correspondence. I am modular trained at schools you probably have never heard of. I worked and studied my butt off and my missus was supporting but none too happy!

It took the best part of 4 years to complete 'everything' barring MCC. Completely self financed and less than 300hrs to my name. Sound familar? Date MAY 2001. Well imagine my surprise when within 5 weeks after passing sim rides and interviews I find myself signing a contract to fly 757's, start date Oct. 2001. Too good to be true? EXACTLY. Moving onto Sept. 11 and the course is cancelled and offer of employment retracted.

So I start the cv bombardment again but this time I add the words 'prepared the work in operations to gain experience within your company'. 2 days later the phone rings, small interview and Im employed within the aviation environment for a small corporate jet company. Date: Nov. 2001.

Well the pay is rubbish but the experience is invaluable. Completing flight plans, plogs, pilot briefs, organising ambulance flights and 'good ol' night call. Time passes on, my IR lapses etc etc. I am not earning enough to stay current. Roll on July 2002. The company takes on, out of the blue, a new a/c and need four new pilots. Who gets the call up? Me. Right place, right time.

So now I find myself F/O flying business jets with a great company, plenty of time off and the missus is happy. :D At the same time I have met many great guys/gals within the GA environment who deserve a break a lot more than me. They all hang in there and thats what impresses future employers. RESILIENCE!

MAX:cool: