Fly be sponsorship scheme

[AlphaCharlie]

This may well be old news, but having done a brief search I couldn't find any recent topics about it. The following is an announcement on Cabair's website (www.ccat.org.uk):

"CCAT is delighted to announce that after successful negotiations with flybe., the Airline will part sponsor trainee pilots for the eighth successive year. The selection procedure will start at Cranfield in early November and successful candidates will commence training on the JAA ATP Integrated Course in March 2003. The scheme will be announced on Tuesday 24 September with advertisements in Flight International and on this website. You will only be able to apply for an information pack from this date and no requests should be made direct to the Airline. flybe. is the new brand for British European and to learn more about their new deal for customers along with the services that they offer, go to the website at www.flybe.com"

Hopefully this trickle of sponsored places will keep on coming!

[jonathang]

Does anyone know if this will be a high hour requirement sponsorship?

[fonawah]

Does anyone know the upper age limit for this sponsorship?

[monkeyboy]

johnathong, from past experience it's usually the KLM/Cabair scheme that requires high hours and then you go on to instruct.

fonawah, the trend for sponsorship schemes has the age group between 18 - 26. If I remember rightly, BE - or JEA as they were when I was a whippersnapper - held the 18-26 limit.

As usual, this is all pure speculation because I don't have any inside info and I haven't seen the advert yet!

Good luck!

MB:)

[timzsta]

If this is an Instructor sponsorship then the usual requirements are 180tt, IMC and Night. If its the non instructor one then I know people who have been successful with less than 60hrs tt at time of interview and are now flying the Dash 8. I think the money you need to contribute is just over £30k, the rest comes out of your wages during your bonded time I think.

Good luck to those who apply.

[fonawah]

cheers monkeyboy. I guess at 32 yrs old, that puts me well outside the age bracket...d'oh!!:mad:

[Bleep]

I applied to their last scheme (Advertised under BEA - didn't make it !) and I believe the upper age limit was 26 with no requirements on flying hours... although you had to demonstrate a "keen interest" in aviation. The total amount of cash that you needed to contribute to the scheme was £32,000 :eek: Literature stated that the first couple of years would have been spent on the Dash 8 with the possibility of shifting to the BAe-146 further throughout you career. Nice if you can get hold of the cash :confused:

[Sagey]

Did them last year, didn't really like the aptitude tests you have to take. I use the word aptitude loosely as they seemed to be based on who knows the more physics than who has the better aptitude to make it as a pilot. You have to pay for them as well, £50 I think.

As said before £32k needs to be paid, although main boost is job at the end :)

Not decided if I will apply this year yet, if you apply good luck to you

PS Do Physics revision ;)

Sagey

[foghorn]

The last time that JE/BE/flyBE ran this it was an integrated course therefore zero/low hour applicants were fine.

I have it on fairly good authority that the Cabair/KLMuk instructor sponsorship scheme has gone forever, along with all DEP hiring to KLMuk (with the exception of a few more experienced DEPs in the next few months).

The airline itself will ceases to exist as a seperate entity from KLM's Dutch operations in five years time and UK-based pilots will be discouraged.

RIP a good first airline job for many pilots.

Cheers!
foggy.

[Rhumb Line]

Bleep did you attend the interviews at Cranfield durin April this year. If so how did you do.......... I think I remember talking to you

[Bleep]

Hi RL,

Afraid it wasn't me, I didn't make interviews. I seemed to have a Pythagoras Theorem problem on the aptitude day, and didn't get past the first step ! Dunno why, but Cabair tests always throw me, although nothing is too difficult really, but Oxford's are always fine :confused: Oh well. Good luck to all those attending if BEA (Flybe.. whatever they're called nowdays) are sponsoring. I can't get hold of the cash required anyhow so will be leaving it this time....

Cheers,

Bleep.

[AlphaCharlie]

Advert in this week's Flight (24-30 September 2002) says:

"The airline is pleased to announce that it will once again offer a part sponsorship scheme for cadet pilots..... with flybe making a substantial contribution towards the initial cost of a JAA ATP integrated course at Cranfield."

Age range 20 - 28 on 1st March 2003
5 GCSEs
2 A-levels, preferably in maths and sciences.


No mention of hours and no mention of exact money to be put up by cadets!!

Guess we'll have to wait and see what the info pack says when it lands through our letter boxes!

[Funkie]

From Cabair website;

flybe. (formerly British European) Europe's largest independant regional airline has this year been voted 'Best Short-Haul Airline' and 'Best Short-Haul Business Carrier'. flybe. combines the best qualities of traditional airlines with the innovative approach of low cost carriers, to offer a new deal to customers.


The airline is pleased to announce that it will once again offer a part sponsorship scheme for cadet pilots. Successful applicants will benefit from a proven formula with flybe. making a substantial contribution towards the initial cost of a JAA ATP Integrated Course with CCAT at Cranfield.

Applicants must be between the age of 20-28 on 1st March 2003, have the unrestricted right to live an work in the UK, and have an absolute minimum of 5 GCSE and 2 A level passes, preferably in Mathematics and Science based subjects. You will already hold, or be capable of holding, a JAR Class 1 Medical Certificate.

If you meet these requirements and have the enthusiasm and drive to join this winning team email [email protected] now for a prospectus and application form. Please quote BE8 and include your full address and postcode.

Closing date for applications is 30th October 2002.


Now what is interesting are the entry requirements, and the upper age limit, this is the highest I've ever seen.

Good luck all.

Fra:D

[monkeyboy]

Indeed, that age limit is most pleasing. I fit in with just seven days to spare! Phew....

Here we go again.......good luck to one and all!

[VTOL]

AlphaCharlie, if it's the same as previous years (which I'm sure it is) then it is an Integrated, Ab-Initio course, ie no hours requirement and the cadet has to pay approx £33k (about half) of the course fees.

So here we go again...

Good luck...

VTOL :D

[Bleep]

Quick question... how the hell do people in their 20's (without a house like moi) manage to get their hands on that sort of cash !? Unsecured loans for those amounts are surely out of the question !? Probably a boring question asked many times, but I am intrigued.

[GolfFoxtrot]

Graduate with a degree in geophysics, work like a complete nutter offshore with no life for 3-4 years and save enough money. This also works for the zero sponsorship option most of us end up doing.

Or marry a rich girl and win the lottery. :D It depends on your motivation.

[Autofly]

I'm back ........ after a long time in the wilderness .....

Hi Sagey, VTOL, how's it going???

32k is a hell of a lot of cash I agree but it has to be said that this advertisement is good news for all us wannabes - I know i'll be applying;)

Good luck to all.

[Sagey]

Very well thanks Autofly, new job, doesn't pay well but a newish company and keep getting told we onto something big. Pig do keep flying pass the windows at work and still find it amusing they say it with a straight face ;)

Well I will probably have a go too, although I do hate Cabair tests. Said it before but for the people that don't know, I don't consider them to be aptitude tests they are who can remember the most maths, physics and the people that score in the top are invited back.

BA, Militiary do it a different way ie whoever reaches the set target goes through to the next stage or "final board" then there are interviews, group tasks etc before they reach their decision. IMO that is a better system.

Anyway good luck to everyone, although without sounding too negative I am keeping a close eye on political events :rolleyes: , sponsorships can be taken away quicker than they are announced!


Sagey

[AlphaCharlie]

I got the prospectus and application form through the post this morning!

I won't be applying! I personally don't have £32,500 to spare!

The prospectus is very thorough and lays out all the interview and testing dates and costs, so from that point of view it is very good.

However, having to front up £32K, £50 for initial test, £100 for interview and computer aptitudes, it is no wonder that the application form is relatively 'simple' and doesn't include any essay questions - there can't be that many people who can afford this!!

[Slim Fast Boy]

I received the pack yesterday, I'm puzzled as to the true value of applying, the cadet cost is the same (give or take a grand) as what I'm paying over the duration of my course. The possibility of a job at the end is a plus, but you graduate with less hours than a standard ab-initio course and if you don't get offered employment you are hanging on for up to three years with less hours than the other graduates. Tough decision really, but if you're not in it you won't get it, that is if you want it.

[Propellerhead]

Not a bad sponsorship if you can afford it! Still better than self sponsoring yourself as you've got an almost guaranteed job at the end of it.

The Cabair aptitude tests are a bit 'different', but you can learn to pass them - I failed them 2 times, and passed them the third after a lot of hard work, revision, and research. The tests don't change that much over the years. Its just another hoop you have to jump through - there are plenty more to come before you can fly an airliner and you just have to live with it! I guess it sorts out those who really want it and are willing to put the effort in.

Believe me, its worth it in the end! I didn't go through Cabair in the end, but wherever you go through its always going to be tough. Good luck everyone.

[sally at pprune]

Anyone know what flybe's starting salary is on graduating from this scheme?

Thanks

[STANDTO]

It's amazing how nothing has changed in nearly 20 years.

I remember asking someone at BA after I got hold of their prospectus, how the **** I was meant to get my hands on, as it was then, about 35k? It was clear then, as it is now, that you either have to have loaded parents who don't feel they have to make you learn the value of money, or have to be willing to prostitute yourself to make enough cash. Hurrah for the age of equal opportunities.

It almost becomes an inbreeding issue. There is little in the way of diversity in aircrew and I don't see things getting any better.

And before you ask, no, I don't know the answer!

[Propellerhead]

It is possible to get graduate studies loans for up to 15-20k which is often enough for some sponsorships - bmi, airtours etc.
However, this still leaves you 15-20k short of the required for BE. Some people remortgage their homes (or their parents homes).
I guess if your parents are fairly well off they may be able to lend 15 grnad or so as an investment in you, which you pay back when you've finished. That's less of a leap of faith than the 50k you need to go through Oxford with no guarantee of a job at the end - and there are plenty who do.

The biggest problem with BE is that the starting salary was never enough to really be able to pay back 35k in a reasonable amount of time, unless you got promoted onto the jet within a year or so (which I believe used to / still does? happen). Maybe its slightly different now, but the sums didn't make comfortable reading when I looked into it.

[Chuffer Chadley]

Well, pay £32k to get my fATPL (plus a bit) is a bit steep, but with a job at the end of it would be worthwhile.

However, with no guarantee of a job, £150 for the interview process, no flex in flying training, and 3 YEARS effectivevly tied to the company if they decide not to offer a job at the end...... sorry, but that isn't realistic, fair or reasonable. Sorry, but I won't be applying.

HOWEVER, it's good news in general that sponsorships are appearing. Let's just have some more sensible ones.

Ciao!

[Propellerhead]

Whilst I agree there's no guarantee of a job, you've got a much better chance of getting one than if you self sponsor yourself, plus you get a fATPL from a major school which will carry weight with an employer if the unfortunate did happen. 32k for a frozen ATPL is pretty good for this country for a full tiem course. You could do it cheaper by doing the self improver route, but think of all the potential lost revenue whilst you're still training. BE offers a VERY good chance of a job at the end.

Where does it say you'd be tied to company for up to 3 years
if they can't offer you a job? You should be free to go elsewhere if they can't.

I agree its not the best sponsorship ever to be offered, but its not the worst (that honour goes to Virgin - 45k up front with a 18k starting salary!), but at the moment there isn't much else out there and you might as well go for it. If you're not willing to spend 150 quid on the interviews, well there are plenty who will, and maybe you don't have the necessary commitment to get a sponsorship. Harsh, but there it is.

[pythagoras]

got my prospectus though today. Won't be applying though. A couple of points do seem abit unfair IMO.

£150 for the tests! whats the betting that most people get invited to attend.

"once employed by flybe, the pilot candidate will be paid the appropriate sponsored pilots salary, which may be LESS than the market rate for a non sponsored pilot" so you may not even get paid as much.

"In the event that employment is not offered immediately following the completion of the course, but that the airline intends to make an offer, pilot graduates will be required to accept the offer for a period of up to 3 years following graduation" So if they don't give you a job straight away you can't even go out and find one off your own back! Could you be 3 years unemployed? no salary at all.

plus only 4 positions and they "particularly want to hear from those in Jersey Guernsey or Belfast area" Not that this is unfair but would decrease my chances

[Chuffer Chadley]

Propellorhead- see Pythagoras' post in answer to your query about the whole '3-year' issue.

The problem is that few employers with any sense will take on someone who may well be forced to go and work for flybe instead.....

And I don't feel I need whatever 'weight' studying with CCAT will give me......... I've got plenty of my own.:)

Ciao!

[PFO]

I wonder what "ECHR" would have to say about the age limits?

PFO

[Propellerhead]

Wow, I don't think that was in the contract when I applied! Is that legal? They should at least pay you a retainer for every month you're not employed. I don't think they could keep you hanging on for 3 years, and if they did, well I guess you could always break the contract and let them pursue the costs of the course. I wonder how far they'd get in court with that - not very I think.

As for the 'weight' that CCAT carries - it's not just that, but the fact that airlines will quite often approach one of the big schools (Oxford, CCAT, BAe) if looking for a small number of pilots, as it saves a lot of recruitment costs, and they can 'cream' the best students from the best schools.

[Bleep]

Not sure if it has already been mentioned, but I believe starting salaries for the cadets on the last scheme were £19K. Worth bearing in mind if you are taking out a huge loan.

[TCM]

I also recently received the application pack in the post, and have to agree with much of what has been said. £32k+ is one thing if you are guaranteed a job with a decent salary at the end of it, but nobody knows what will happen to the requirements of Flybe. in the next 18 months. Being tied to any possible offer for up to three years is ridiculous - what do you do in the meantime? If the starting salary is about £19K (anyone know different?) then it is in effect a glorified loan with several catches. While I could concievably scrape together the money, I can't help thinking that it would be better invested in continuing by the self-sponsored route - even with reduced job opportunities at the end of it. I might even find one that pays half decent money. I am undecided whether to apply for this or Malgus.

I agree it will be interesting to find out how many people willing to hand over £150 for the privilege of being interviewed will find themselves invited...

TCM

By the way, anyone else going to check out Malgus at the weekend? :confused:

[pa28biggles]

Im still deciding whether i want to apply for this scheme. Ive applied for the Britannia scheme and i am waiting for the result of the aptitude test. I feel that the Britannia scheme seems much much more reasonable.

All in all, the FLYBE scheme does not sould like a good opportunity for the reasons other people have mentioned. One of the criteria seems to be ARE YOU LOADED? If you have money, then you have a chance, if you don't, well, you probably aren't upper class enough to work for us. This may sound harsh, but i wont let my working class backgound stop me from being a pilot. If i can fly the plane, does it matter weather my dad was a scientist or a roadsweeper?

Ive seen a few airline application forms, they always ask are you bonded to a training scheme...... If you graduate from Cabair and BE don't have any jobs then other airlines wont touch you. Then what happens if your IR expires. You can take the re-test but could you afford to keep to IR standard? Could you afford to pay the £32K loan off on the wage they are offering (if you had to borrow it)? Could you afford to start paying this loan (if you had to) whilst you waited for BE to give you the job?

The money you are saving by doing the sponsorship instead of the modular route seems to involve you in more risk - the fact that you have to be available for 3 years after graduation.

The case for going for the sponsorship is reasonable, but the case for not doing it seems very very strong......

[topunicyclist]

Part of my concern is the level of the costs, for example the half board accommodation is £7000 for 56 weeks + VAT. A few simple calculations show this to be £146.87 per week.

I lived at Cranfield for one year, studying at the College of Aeronautics, and I paid £50 per week for a room in halls. Now some people say I have a healthy appetite, but there's *no* way I'd spend anything even approaching £96.87 per week on breakfast and dinner. It seems someone somewhere is making a bit of money on this............

[monkeyboy]

Oh come on guys, they're only after four people! From reading previous posts in this thread most people are painting an image of NOT getting a flying job with BE at the end of the scheme.

That's probably why they're only after four people, because four people are easy to integrate into a small airline than, say, twelve or sixteen, as in previous airline schemes.

If they were looking for twelve in the current climate then yes, I'd be concerned but it's only four.

I personally think they put that spiel in to somewhat cover themselves in case they do go belly-up.

MB

[Waypoint10]

I am considering applying for the sponsorship.

Can anyone confirm the starting salary at flybe for sponsored cadets?

Out of the cadets who have been selected for the sponsorship in the past few years how many have been from Jersey, Guernsey or Ireland?

The reason I ask is because there are only 4 places up for grabs. If they have four decent candidates apply for the sponsorship from the ‘desired’ geographical locations (which they probably will) then the chances of success are significantly reduced and in my opinion it isn’t worth applying.

I am not having a go at flybe or cabair, they are offering more than any other airline (with the exception of Britannia), I am just evaluating whether it is worth applying if you are not from the ‘desired’ geographical location.

Thanks in advance for any information on this matter.

[TCM]

I have a couple of questions that someone who is more familiar with this type of sponsorship may be able to help me with.

Regarding the bonding to the value of £40 000, if my parents agree to secure it against their house, what happens if I become medically unfit and unable to complete the 5 year contract? Is there some insurance that would be available to cover this?

Also, in the event of having to pay the £40 000 (for leaving for whatever reason - unlikely I know!) would there be a resonable terms of payment, or would it be a case of 'sorry Dad you've lost the house?'

These may seem like trivial or academic points in the general scheme of things, but I'm sure I'm not the only wannabe (or wannabe's parent) who has thought about this.

Does anyone know what flybe. are like to work for?

Thanks for any advice.

TCM

[andyg]

For those of you who have applied.......

On attending a CABAIR open day/seminar last weekend I found out that so far only 6 people had applied for the scheme which closes in a couple of weeks.

I haven't applied because of the obvious money factor. But good luck to those of you who have

[pa28biggles]

Thanks zerouali. I didn't know that you could get such insurance. Life insurance maybe, but not 'unable to complete training due to loss of medical' insurance.
:)

[sally at pprune]

PA28

I looked into the insurance as well. Essentially both are 'loss of medical certificate' insurances so the fact that you don't yet have a licenece makes little difference. i.e. you don't seem to be covered for reasons for loss of licence other than medical under so called 'loss of licence' insurance.

[jonjon]

Hi,

I have too received the application form but I don't think I am going to apply: ok, they offer a part sponsorship, but you still need to fork out 33k. After that, maybe you get a job, fare enough, it is not worse than joining an integrated school, but you are tied for 3 years!?!?!?!

As most of you said it: what do they expect you to do? Sit and wait for three years?

Fair enough the situation is pretty bad now, but coming out with such a sponsorship I think is insulting, if they need 6 people than 6 get on the course, why sending more than you need and then ask them to wait? And let's not mention the £150 for the tests: "it is to cover the cost of the tests", well, I have a job right now and had a few before this one but never before going to an interview was I asked to pay to cover the costs!!!!!

Some companies know there are some desperate people (and I am one of them) who are ready to do almost anything to reach their goals and they take advantage of this.

:mad: :mad:

[Bleep]

Have to agree JJ - paying for tests/interviews is, in my opinion, insulting and 'taking the michael' somewhat. I've never heard of this happening in any other industry - although I do stand to be corrected, but I have personally never had to pay to be interviewed/tested. In fact, quite often the opposite has occured, whereby I was able to claim for my travel expenses :). Oh well, such is life....... I was very pleased that Britannia didn't charge to sit their aptitude tests. Still... don't want to start a tired old argument (although I probably just have).

[sally at pprune]

I've just done the Brit tests and was glad I wan't charged, and I have not applied for flybe. However, I have to be honest and say that the cost of the tests would have made no difference; I would have still applied to Brit and I would not have applied to flybe if it were free.

I suppose there is another way of looking at it; either flybe will recoup the costs of the tests from each applicant or the costs of the unsucessful from the sucessful. The course costs £33,000 as it is. If those who get through have to pay for those who don't, it will cost another £2,000 or so.

Which is worse?

[Bemused]

I agree, Sal.

The test costs shouldn't make a difference. I feel £150 is reasonable as long as you receive a decent amount of feedback from your tests.

People are throwing £32.5K around - you are borrowing £55.75K, and if things go wrong (touch wood you won't have to worry about this!), that's what you (or your parents?) will be liable for.

Whilst I see monkeyboys point that it's only four pilots to fit into an airline - the sponsorship agreement is purely that. An employment offer is subject to flybe's requirements (read the "Repayment of Training Costs" section carefully). It makes sense that they are predicting that demand, but it isn't contractually a part of the sponsorship agreement.

It is a lot of £££. It's not only they who are choosing you, you should be choosing the airline you feel offer the best opportunities for you - as you are paying for it. Good luck all who go for it.