New Virgin Blue EBA Poll

[Interceptor]

VB management and the AFAP have withdrawn the proposed EBA document before the official vote was completed and counted.

They intend to reword the document to tidy up some of the areas which were causing dissatisfaction amongst the pilots.

Remuneration and lifestyle issues are unlikely to significantly change, if at all, from the initial document.

Will you vote Yes or No for the rehashed EBA document under these circumstances.

[Keg]

Can I suggest a re-word of the question. The answer for someone in VB will be 'yes' they will vote 'yes or no' in the EBA.

A better way of asking would have been How will you vote in the upcoming EBA. 'Yes' or 'No' or 'For' or 'Against' or something like that.

Sorry if it appears I'm being picky. Been proof reading a couple of other documents tonight!

[Woomera]

Interceptor

Hope I got it right, if not please let me know. Cheers.

Thanks Keg.

[Interceptor]

Thanks Woomera and Keg,
The wording is fine.
Cheers.

[eisle s]

If the money don't change, the results stay the same.
VIRGIN BLUE E.B.A NEGOTIATORS, WHAT A BUNCH OF BANKERS. :mad:

[Break Right]

Everyone in Virgin would like the pay rise along with a better life style but the ones at the top are not seeing the big picture. A good majority of us don’t want the CAO 48 Exemption. Full Stop. :mad: :mad:

[3 Holer]

With Virgin Blue and National Jet Systems EBA negotiations breaking down over pay, who would like to hazard a guess at the acceptable "industry standard" salary these days for RPT, jet transport pilots ?

[jakethemuss]

Slightly less than what QF 73 Drivers receive.

[1013]

Excuse me if I'm wrong guys but when you sign up for a no-frills airline doesn't that include no-frills pay as far as Rick Branson is concerned??

I remember at the start-up of VB guys were talking of foregoing pay for the lifestyle that Brisbane had to offer and the chance to get back to Oz for some others.

I believe that you guys are woefully underpaid and deserve more for the numerous days you work and VB's inability to roster you all more effectively, but then again I dont pay the wages or organise such things.

I remember years ago when a very senior member of VB management in the Flt Dept was very vocal in the late eighties about a proposed pay-rise.
I wonder whether this person is still a card-carrying member of the AFAP and how has his reaction been to this EBA?

Which gets me wondering.
Imagine its 1989 and the incumbent TAA and Ansett have been told that deregulation is just around the corner.
The AFAP hears that a British Millionare is going to start an airline, pay pilots some 30-40% less than the acceptable AFAP approved current award rate.
How would the current VB Flight Dept and others who were around then have reacted to that thought in 1989?????????????????????

Sort of makes you seriously wonder.

Lets face it, times will be tougher in the future.
Richard Branson doesnt want to give an effective pay rise and if you guys want to fight Chris Corrigan then remember how he effectively played a major part in the waterfront reform and his blatant use of non-union $cab labour.

They know they dont have to give a worthy pay-rise and these guys will fight tooth and nail to prevent doing so.
So much for treating loyal staff and paying them what they're worth and/or listening to them when it comes to an EBA hearing and vote.

[I'm with stupid]

Dicky is renowned the world over for being a " frugle " employer ,( you could stick a piece of coal up his backside and a diamond would pop out ).
What made the Oz VB guys and gals think they would be treated any different to the rest of the Virgin group ??

[50 30 10]

Hate to say it but you blokes are getting $crewed. All I can say is good luck for the sake of pay/conditions in whats left of the Australian airline industry.

Its nice to fly aeroplanes, but if the pay dosn't make up for the conditions, is it really worth it?

[TIMMEEEE]

Yeah right.

Paying the VB guys a pittance isn't really any concession for having very nubile wenches, large-breasted blonde girlies and Sir Dick turn up every year at the Christmas party trying to be cool (with his pink open necked shirt without a tie and the sleeves rolled up).

These people have families to support and I am sure they'll take the pay rise and forego the eye-candy or the silly pommy twit at the Xmas festivities.

[liquid_gold]

TIMMEEEE, Do they sell mens sunnies where you bought yours ???

[747-400 F/O]

Give this a rest. If guys join with bad conditions its their own fault. Basically they lower the whole aviation system.

It is a joke! If you pay for monkey????

[Interceptor]

747-400 F/O

You are missing the big picture.

VB started over 2 years ago against the odds of succeeding as a 4th player in the Australian market. Most of those who joined were prepared to forgo higher salaries in an effort to help the airline get started and to succeed.

It was always understood and stated by management/AFAP (even though management denies it now) that it was a startup package to be reviewed and adjusted upwards towards industry standard at the next EBA if the airline was performing well.

That time has come now and the Virgin Blue of today is a very different (and profitable) airline compared to the fledgling startup that it was.

There is nothing wrong in the fact that the VB pilots accepted lower salaries to start. And equally there is nothing wrong that they are now striving to have conditions improved. It is their right to do so.

An Enterprise Bargaining Agreement is the vehicle to allow this right.

I assume that you have the right to vote on EBA's in your company, then if that is the case, the Virgin pilots also have a right to vote on their EBA, and preferably without your non constructive comments.

[Z Force]

And VB don't have to pay payroll tax, they get taxpayer subsidies, ship $250 million Aussie dollars off shore and it's partialy owned by a BILLIONAIRE and yet the management pr1cks still whinge they are hard done by! What happened to a level playing field. Qantas get none of these breaks but pay wages relative to the job. Not only that, Qantas HAVE to hire equipment out to Virgin if they need it. I htink it's about time a stopwork was calledby you Virgin blokes.

[747-400 F/O]

Interceptor, are you kidding!! You really must be a stupid guy to think that when you join a low cost airline with poor pay, that anyone would ever increase this.

I stated a simple fact, that accepting this lower pay in the first spot has put the DJ people were they are today. Lets call a spade a spade, yes a lot of experienced guys came back to australia for lifestyle, but we all know that the LARGE majority of other drivers at DJ are guys who could never get into a real airline with proper pay for whatever reason, and basically grabbed any rope from Virgin to fly a 737.

It may be politically incorrect what I am saying, but I believe what I say has merit.

[TIMMEEEE]

LIQUID_GOLD - yes they do indeed sell men's sunnies at the point of purchase mate, but they aint nearly as cool as my chicky-babe pair.

By the way Liquid old pal, is it true you are combining your blessed virtues of laying cable and green keeping in your limited spare time??????

But as we discussed in the extremely remote chance that Virgin Blue were to submit a workable EBA then you may wish to use the new-found funds to purchase a pair like my devil-may-care cool as choice-bro biodegradable, bullet-proof chick-magnet sunnies with the inbuilt volume control that p!ss off the elder gentry of the uncool variety!

Gotta love em - but the grumpy old farts at work still give me evil stares!!

[Interceptor]

Woomera,

As I refuse to have a discussion with Mr 747- 400 F/O, could you please do something about him and his posts which are insulting and degrading to the many fine aviators that Virgin Blue has employed as well as other professional pilots around the world.

His remarks such as

"the LARGE majority of other drivers at DJ are guys who could never get into a real airline with proper pay for whatever reason"

shows the immaturity and venom of this individual.

He implies that Virgin Blue is not a real airline as it is based on a low cost model. Therefore Easyjet, Ryanair, West Jet, Southwest Airlines and many other successful low cost airlines and their pilots must also be rope grabbers without the appropriate skills to join a real airline.

He also implies that anyone such as turboprop pilots in smaller airlines must also be second rate as they have not joined the big kangaroo.

This person is an embarassment to all aviators on this international forum and belongs in the sin bin along with his posts which are designed to grab a reaction for his own perverted pleasure.

One really has to wonder what he does in the bunk on those long haul flights !!

[Woomera]

Interceptor

Our friend B747-400 F/O can spend some time in the bin until he learns some respect for other PPRuNers who are actually professional aviators and that VB whether he likes it or not IS a REAL airline holding exactly the same standard of issue of HCAOC as do QF and others.

The last I looked there was only one level, unless QFs is secretly marked as a 1st Class one and VB as 2nd Class. :rolleyes:


B747-400 F/O

You must be a joy to work with and certainly do nothing to enhance the professional reputation of your colleagues.

And no I don't work for or have anything to do with VB.

[Interceptor]

Thanks Woomera,

His poisoning and hijacking of posts will not be missed by professional aviators around the world.

[jakethemuss]

Big assumption to make that this bloke is actually with QF. This site is not the hardest to register a name on and create a persona of illusion. Steady on on the QF bit, all pilots at QF wish you well in your endeavours to improve your lot as it takes the heat off QF pilots who are suddenly very expensive in managements' :rolleyes: eyes. The profession is worth more.

[Keg]

Just to echo Jakes t houghts. The majority of QF drivers are cheering mightily hard for you blokes on this one. Admittedly it is out of patent self interest but most endeavours in this world are done out of that.

I'm sick of being told about VBs 'lower cost base' and anything that brings the two closer together is a good thing by me- and presumably by you blokes too.

What person after flogging around GA for years doing THY and now flying a 737 DOESN'T deserve to be paid more than $100K per annum as a F/O?

A mate of mine once told me that executive salaries and bonuses are all about 'at risk' pay. Well, considering that most CPL holders have outlaid in excess of $50K and then for the most part spent a couple of years earning less than a glamourous wage, why shouldn't they be paid well. Management certainly is and you could argue that they 'risk' a lot less on a daily basis than we do. They stuff up and the menus don't arrive on the aircraft or the rosters are crap. We stuff up....

Go get 'em fellas and ladies, you'll get support from every thinking QF driver! ;) :D

[longjohn]

If I can clarify:

Lets call a spade a spade, prior to Ansett's collapse, were not the vast majority of Virgin's low / nil jet time pilots AN and QF rejects?

Only a question as irrespective of whether or not it is true most of them are way ahead of where I was after 2 years at AN, let alone 9.

Just goes to show, aviation has little to do with experience or ability and a lot to do with luck.:D

[Woomera]

I'd just like to clarify a point.

B747-400 F/O was binned as a result of his suggestion that

the LARGE majority of other drivers at DJ are guys who could never get into a real airline with proper pay for whatever reason, and basically grabbed any rope from Virgin to fly a 737.

which I think is offensive and demeaning to those people.

then longjohn reflects that

Lets call a spade a spade, prior to Ansett's collapse, were not the vast majority of Virgin's low / nil jet time pilots AN and QF rejects?

with the implication that if your were not selected by AN or QF that you are somehow a reject.

Might I suggest that that "failing" to get a guernsey with either does not in itself mean anything, but that you did not fit their respective "cardboard cutouts " of what they believe represents "their sort of person" and/or you did, but that you missed the "numbers" cut off.

One must also remember that at the time of VBs conception there were many applauding the opportunities it provided and I wont even go near the Impulse issue.

Either way it's called "life" there have since been some "interesting" changes and some went forward and some went backward.
longjohn again
Just goes to show, aviation has little to do with experience or ability and a lot to do with luck.
Ain't that a fact.

Either way, your professional colleagues deserve respect for the "fact" that they operate the same equipment to the same standards to which you are required.
You may have subjective opininons as to whether they or you do it "better" whatever that means, but they are only that, "subjective opinions".

QF and VB are both on learning curves and will, as they must in this business, forever be.
I suspect most in QF would admit that they have had to relearn some lessons and I'm sure VB would admit likewise.

In so far as income is concerned, I'm not getting into that other than to say that you should be supporting each other proactively as fellow proffesionals.

The "I'm more professional than you because...." routine is as futile an argument as to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.", that is "interesting" but hardly the point.

This is THE Professional Pilots Forum, to be used for professional and rational discussion of your common issues, please continue to use it in that manner.

Oh and BTW if you sadly and desperately need an enemy, it should not be your fellow professional pilots.

If you think I am out of line I would appreciate an incisive post as to why this is so.

[Dehavillanddriver]

Longjohn,

Just for your info..

Looking at the people that joined Virgin prior to the collapse of Ansett.

We had people from the following airlines with Jet time..

Ansett all types
Australian airlines all types
Qantas mainline B747 and B737
Emirates B777 and A330
Airtours A320/A330
Air Hong Kong B747
Singapore B747
NJS B737 and BAe146
Air Nauru B737
Solomons B737
Polynesian B737
Easyjet B737
Cathay B747 and AIrbus
Saudi MD11
Some pommie outfit flying L1011's
Silkair B737
Condor B767/B757
Lauda B767
Air Vietnam B767
Transavia B737
KLM B737
Flight West F28
Freedom B737
Malaysian B737, A300, B747
AB airlines BAC111
British Midland A320 F70

There is more but I can't think of them at the moment.

I am pleased to see that you believe these people to be the rejects of aviation.

These people form the backbone of the training and checking department and have a huge amount of experience to pass on to the less experienced people that have been given a golden opportunity to fly in their own country.

It is funny you know - these people fly the aeroplane to the same standard as the old AN people used to, with less bull***** and most importantly no tie!

I know quite a few people that applied to both AN, TN and QF - only to be rejected by one or two of those and accepted by the other. Does this make them AN, or TN or QF rejects?

[longjohn]

Perhaps I should have kept my opinions to myself.

Woomera, I did not say that if you were rejected from AN or QF you were a total reject, simply that you were a reject from the AN & QF employment processes. As you so eloquently explained this should not be seen as anything else but that others were more suited to their criteria.

Devil, please re-read my post as you may have misunderstood. I asked whether the Virgin nil / low JET time pilots were more likely to be AN or QF rejects, NOT the pilots who joined with vast jet experience (which you generously listed).

I have not suggested that this is any kind of a safety issue, merely asked if it is truly the case.

In aviation, unlike the vast majority of other industries, pay is not necessarily an indicator of ability or capability, ARDU test pilots are paid less than Virgin Captains or even some Qantas S/O's.


However, the employer providing the most favourable working conditions in AUS is Qantas. That is a fact. Previously it was matched or bettered by Ansett. I think it is also fairly safe to assume that in addition to career opportunities, renumeration and terms and conditions form an important part of the decision of which employer one would choose in the vast majority of cases, all things being equal.

Therefore, my assumption is that if you work for Qantas (or Ansett in the past) you are working for the employer in the most demand. I say this personally as others may place higher emphasis on other criteria. You can therefore say that you were employed by the most desired employer and are paid accordingly.

After all, wouldn't we all like to be paid more to do the same job?

Nowhere did I suggest you were better because you worked for employer A.

At the end of the day the kid who did his QF cadet course 18 months ago may very well hold the left hand seat of a QF 767 in 18 months time, yet he has 10% of the experience held by most out of work AN pilots.

Luck, not ability or capability is responsible for this, the same kid could very well have been an Ansett cadet. The same kind of luck put the QF and AN 'reject' out of the doldrums and into the left hand seat of a 737.

Lets all be grateful for lady luck whilst we bask in her warm glow, after all, not many people are blessed with permanent good fortune

On another note, I find it curious that at times the notion of free speech is tested on this forum in regards to Virgin. Some may have strong feelings on this subject as others do with respect to the 89' dispute, yet the same degree of tolerance is not applied.

I am constantly suprised by the loud calls to silence some for what simply may be a misguided opinion. Just as in 89' there is a large group out there with strong feelings about the events of the last 18 months in Australian aviation, to silence their opinions is to deny reality.

As I have said before, live and let live, but lets not distort or worse deny the facts or hide the truth.
:cool:

[bitter balance]

747 FO's opinions probably offended alot of people, regardless of their merits or otherwise. I do not consider 747FOs opinion to be reasoned but that's just my opinion. What I do find a bit suprising is that every day there are a lot worse things said about companies and individuals on these boards that result in no action. The lines written about VB are pretty tame by comparison.

I commend Woomera on his new standard. I just hope it isn't a variable standard like the NRL Judiciary at the moment (finals fever :) )

[Gnadenburg]

Agree with Bitter.

Bit of an oxymoron- some Virgins give better than they take.

[CAPT146]

No one will deney your right to give your opinion on any subject. However the title of this post is Virgin EBA poll. One would assume from this that people reading this particular item could care less what you think of VB. If you must vent your spleen about how terrible you think VB is please feel free to start another topic and leave this one to people who are trying to find out information about the EBA. If you don't work for VB an have some constructive comments ( as opposed to non helpful banter and opinion making) about how these pilots can improve there conditons then please join in and pass on your comments. Every pilot group in every airline should be striving to improve there conditions, no matter what thier circumstances there is always ways that a contract/agreement can be improved.

As to why people chose to work for VB that is there business, the reasons are many and varied. Some by choise and I suppose some out of desperation ( a bit like ex AN capts joining QF as a S/O!). I joined VB because I wanted to. I have never applied to QF, never manage to get an interview with AN, almost had one with TN before they were taken over. I chose to work for NJS many years ago because of where I would be based and a 146 command and doubling my RAAF salary. I chose to go to VB because a got a quick command slightly better money and a lot better aeroplane. I work about as hard as I did NJS but with more overnights, but probably no more than any other 737 pilot in the world.

So please could we stop being so critical of each others operations, any lets use this forum for what it was invented for. Communicating, helping, informing, learning.

[Airspeed Ambassador]

The following extract is from the Ryanair website. Seems that a low cost airline doesn't have to mean low cost pilot wages!


Why join Ryanair ?

1. Outstanding earning potential – Current agreement has Captains’ grossed up earnings running from STG£88,700 to in excess of STG£100,000 and First Officer grossed up earnings running from STG£66,000 to in excess of STG£70,620 *2.

2. Fixed roster pattern - 5 on, 3 off, 5 on, 3 off, fixed days off, no scheduled overnights permitting Pilots to plan their lives with certainty

3. Unrivalled Career Progression – potential for command within 3 years

4. Loss of Licence Insurance Cover of €190,000

5. 5 Year Agreement on pay, benefits and share options

6. Share Option Scheme – which has seen returns of €230,000 in 4 years for existing pilots

7. Excellent Flight Benefits from day one

What can I expect to earn ?
The table below gives you an indication of the potential earnings for pilots in the UK.

UK based Pilots Earnings
- Extract from Ryanair Pilots UK 5 Year Agreement

Position 2002 Year 5 of Agreement
Senior Captain STG94,700 STG102,140
Captain STG88,700 STG96,140
Senior First Officer STG66,600 STG70,620

* 1 - Ryanair Pilots UK 5 Year Agreement * 2 -Currently pilots joining Ryanair are on phased sector pay for the first 6 months i.e. 50%. After six months on the line 100% sector allowances apply.

Rosters
Ryanair pilots enjoy a stable roster pattern which essentially allows them to plan their lives with a large degree of certainty. In the UK pilots work a basic pattern of 5 Earlies followed by 3 days off followed by 5 Lates followed by 3 days off, with the Roster issued 4 weeks in advance, in addition to this if you work a rostered day off you receive a Nett payment of STG£200 in addition to sector pay.

Share Options
As a Ryanair Pilot you may qualify for participation in our Employee Share Option Scheme which could give you €12,697 worth of options per year over a 5 year period subject to the company increasing post tax profits by 20% per annum. As part of the 5 Year Pilot Agreement negotiated in November 2000 our pilots were awarded an additional allocation of €127,000 worth of Share Options at €10.00. Our pilots like all of our people work hard and we reward them with a stake in the Airline. The table below demonstrates how valuable shares / options have become since Ryanair floated in 1997.

Growth in Value of Options granted to Ryanair Pilots
Year Granted Gain *
1997 - Floatation €118,974
1998 - Options € 38,743
1999- Options € 27,807
2000 - Options € 9,142
2000 - 5 year Agreement € 35,045
2001 - Options € 1,143
Total Gain to date €230,584

* * Based on closing price of €6.38 on 22nd January 2002. Reflects a 2:1 share split on February 2000 and a further 2:1 share split on December 7th 2001.

Our people share directly in the success that we have all created. A Pilot with Ryanair since 1996, and who has held all shares / options has made a gain of €230,584 in just 6 years !

[1013]

Maybe so in terms of British pounds but as a mate of mine in BA who lives in London constantly reminds me that earning 100,000 British Pounds is the equivalent in terms of buying power of earning A$100,000!

We can convert currencies till the cows come home but try to live in London on BP 70,000 a year and your lifestyle will be the equivalent of earning about $60,000 in Oz.

Its an expensive place.

My opinion?
The VB pilots although having accepted these wages in Oz do deserve alot more but realistically speaking I dont believe they'll have much luck twisting the arms of Corrigan or that tite-arse Branson.

[Sopwith Pup]

1013

You may be correct about the cost of living in London but I think you will find that most Ryanair pilots live in the "home counties" or Ireland, both of which are cheaper to live in.

[Theo Racle]

HOT OFF THE PRESS....

DJ to open MEL base in February. Limited numbers initially so get that transfer request in. Wonder if that will alter things, EBA wise...

[Helibloke]

So does this mean the new recruits will be MEL based or do you think there will be enough interest within the existing rank and file?

[Theo Racle]

All positions expected to be internal transfers at this stage especially amongst cabin crew.

Cheers Theo

[farcup77]

There was a strong rumour a way back that Adelaide was a potential crew base,and I know that a few up here were hopefull,not to be now?

[CitizenXX]

I've just been looking through the threads, and came across this one.

Isn't 747-400 FO a particularly offensive individual?? Well done Woomera - leave him out for a year or so.

I would imagine he's Qantas with an attitude like that. Is it any wonder that when he gets to be a Captain he probably won't utter a word to the poor old SO on the way to London, or Rio, orin the crew room? He'll be above all that.

Difficult to believe your attitude 747 (400) FO.

It's probably been said elsewhere, and I think I may even have said it, that if you're rejected by AN, QF, or indeed any airline, it is not that you are not good enough, but just that you're not good enough on the day. If you were never good enough, you wouldn't even get an look in. Of course, there will always be those who do not hold even the minimum qualifications who do apply, and are rejected because of that. But they are always welcome to come back and have a go when they do.

[liquid_gold]

Glad I learnt English as a first language - CitizenXX must have some real troubles with interpretation. CitizenXX, your post is as clear as mud. Care to enlighten us on what you are saying?

[jetblues]

So with Melbourne the next base what are the chances of a Sydney base in the next 12 mths or so ?

[ftrplt]

So CitizenXX, you must know most of the 2200 pilots in Qantas then?

[Keg]

Geez Citizen, everyone agrees that 744 F/O had a bad attitude and was mostly being a goose winding people up all the time and he/she has been widely condemned for it over the last month or so.

You do the same but then go and be every bit as offensive as 744 F/O by casting dispersions on the remainding 2299 QF crew who mostly DON'T exhibit the same attitude as 744 F/O- and besides that, we don't even know if 744 F/O is a QF driver or not!!

I've got no problem with people saying that his posts are offensive but your last post has got to be one of the biggest examples of double standards I've seen on PPRUNE in a long time. In short, I've taken offense. Perhaps I should be sending messages to Woomera to get him to bin you for a year too since you feel that is the punishment for such behaviour! I won't though, the difference being is that 744 F/O was deliberately stirring people up, and got nailed accordingly. You on the other hand are just demonstrating your ignorance and you shouldn't be binned for just being ignorant. Shame really the following point you made was pretty spot on. Interesting though that you don't necessarily believe it- if you did you wouldn't have made the original comment about QF drivers now would you.

Have a nice day.

[CitizenXX]

Keg,

You are quite right. I did not articulate my thoughts nearly as well as I should have, or normally do, and I apologize to the great number of QF guys who are decent blokes/girls. It was aimed as a minority group, not intended to offend (expecially you Keg) and I should have mentioned that.

There will always be an arrogant minority in any group, QF, AN, CX, etc., even GA, and they should be roundly condemned for such behaviour. I certainly didn't intend that I should be in that group.

And I'm having a nice day:)

[Interceptor]

What's a Pilot Worth?

Commentary, Air Line Pilot, August 1999, page 6

By F/O John Ley (Delta)

When contract time rolls around, you will begin hearing comments from our fellow employees, from management, and the news media about pilots’ excessive salaries and over-sized egos, etc. I cringe when I hear a pilot react defensively about our wages and lifestyle. Do you?

Does your doctor, your lawyer, your CPA, or your dentist apologize for his or her salary? Why should you?
The doctor to whom I entrust my health and my family’s health earns six figures a year. The specialist I entrusted an eye problem to several years ago earns several times my six-figure salary. Had she botched the job, my multimillion-dollar career would have come to a screeching halt. She didn’t, and because of her extensive training and experience as an eye specialist, I’m back in the cockpit pursuing my career as an airline pilot. She was worth every penny she was paid. Her 8–10 years of college, medical school, residency, and specialty training delayed her entry into the high-dollar workforce. She had no guarantees she’d earn the big bucks of an eye specialist. She felt the risk was worth taking, and it has paid off handsomely for her and her family. Not all of her colleagues were as successful. Sound familiar?

The CPA who prepares my tax returns earns six figures a year. She’s very good and knows her business. She doesn’t apologize for what she charges. I pay her for her knowledge and experience. She’s worth every penny. The lawyer I took my parents to for some estate planning was not cheap. Customers like my parents paid for his high-priced office and expensive car. They willingly paid for his knowledge and experience. He certainly made no excuses for his earnings. In both cases, the CPA and the lawyer spent years acquiring both the education and experience before they earned "the big bucks." Sound familiar?

I have a friend who is a dentist. Following college and dental school, she spent 4 years in the military to gain experience and to help pay off her dental school loans. Leaving the military, she took a pay cut in her first civilian job working for another dentist. It took her 3–4 years before she was earning more on the outside than she was paid in the military. She then took another risk--she started her own practice. Some savvy moves on her part have resulted in her having a successful practice 6–7 years later. She’s now earning more than a quarter of a million dollars per year at age 44. She offers no apologies for her income. Many of her classmates from dental school are earning half a million or more a year. None of them react defensively about their earnings. Why should we?

The professionals mentioned above share some very common traits. While not all people in their profession earn six-figure salaries, those at the top of their profession do earn six figures, sometimes seven.

Most of them delayed their entry into the normal workforce by several years to acquire the education, training, skills, and experience necessary to become eligible to enter their chosen career field. Most of those career fields have some form of licensing requirement in addition to continuing-education training on an annual or periodic basis.

As professional airline pilots, we are justifiably proud of our achievements. Those of us who have landed jobs at major airlines have overcome many hurdles. Many of us have worked for five or six airlines before getting to a major airline. Others spent 6-10 years in the military getting the requisite experience. Our annual checkrides, training, and FAA medical examinations are a constant intrusion into our lives. A large number of our fellow pilots will have their careers cut short because of a medical problem, resulting in a loss (temporarily or permanently) of their medical certificate.

Educating the flying public and our fellow employees is up to us.

The next time you’re in a social situation, think about what and how you communicate. Perhaps instead of bragging about your three-times-a-week golf game, talk about your last simulator check or your last upgrade school. Educate those around you about the amount of advance preparation (with no pay) you did to successfully complete that school or simulator check. Inform them about the last poor weather day during which you made a CAT II or CAT III landing, or handled an aircraft malfunction, bringing the airplane to a safe landing. You don’t need to boast. Just be factual and emphasize your training and experience in safely handling these situations.

Perhaps slowly, over time, we will add to the positive image pilots already enjoy with the traveling public. Then, when the next contract negotiations come around, people will be more inclined to say, "Those pilots are well worth what they’re paid." After all, the public doesn’t generally complain about what their doctor, their dentist, their CPA, or their lawyer earns. Why should they complain about what their pilot earns? Their lives are in our hands. l

This article is reprinted with permission from Delta Council 124’s newsletter, "The Orient Express," April.

[bitter balance]

Interceptor, thanks for the article. The only problem I see with it is that it is written for a US audience. In Australia people do whinge about how much their doctor, CPA etc earns.

[OhBehave]

The common misconception in the pilot group is that higher tech crew pay results in a safer airline. This is completely false. Delta airlines, one of the highest paying (if not the highest) airlines in the US should know this - they were almost shut down by the FAA for a string of safety related accidents and incidents back in the late eighties.

Pay and conditions in the oz airline scene have been eroded for years - the collapse of AN will do nothing but accelerate this. The only spike on the pay graph now is QF.

[CitizenXX]

OB,

Sad but true. A few mates in Qantas are convinced that it can't last much longer. I don't know how Dixon will do it, but they're convinced he will achieve pay cuts in some way. One wonders if he'll attack the rest of the QF workforce with the same gusto as he attacks the pilots. Never happened in AN - TWU was untouchable.

It will be interesting to see what SQ offer if/when they get up, and if it's less than QF, as it will surely be, then Dixon will be off and running. Hopefully, for everybody's sake, it will be more than VB is paying.

BB,

I agree. Aussies do whinge about how much others make, and pilots are despised by the public for what they earn. The public don't know for sure, although some would through remarkably accurate figures published in Australian Aviation a while back, but if it's a hundred grand, then it's too much is the general attitude.

The article sounds to me like nothing more than a union attempting to bolster its image prior to contract negotiations.

[OhBehave]

SQ will pay pilots the going market rate - on par with VB, NJS, etc. Nothing more, they dont have to.

Dixon has already made productivity gains with the domestic pilot group - NG's crewed at the same rates as classic 737's.

[eisle s]

Oh Behave, please explain why you think the NG pilots should be paid more $$ than the pilots flying the classics:confused: :confused:

[gaunty]

eisle s

Yeah I kinda thought that if there was a difference it should be around the other way, what with the glass and less switches 'n knobs 'n things:D

[whipping boy]

Less switches and knobs my arse!

The NG is a 1960's mutant and when Boeing come out of the last century they may stand a chance of competing against modern aircraft manufacturers.

I agree more money to make my life easier,put me in coach I'm ready to play.

[OhBehave]

I dont recall saying they should get paid more.

[Interceptor]

An interesting article below regarding pilots pay in the US.

Tuesday, February 27, 2001

Pilots pay smeared in U.S. air woes outcry
By Simon Hirschfeld


NEW YORK (Reuters) - Are pilots highly trained professionals with immense
responsibility, or overpaid aerial cabbies with the airlines in their
unionized grip?

As labor battles further complicate the delay-plagued U.S. air traffic
system, some politicians have pointed to the high pay levels pilots earn as
they scrutinize the use of tactics such as refusing overtime to pressure
management.

Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott this month urged the Department of
Transportation to examine pilot wages and worker-related delays. "What do
they make? Look at those salaries," Lott told the DOT Inspector General.

Airline pilots take home pay is comparable to doctors, lawyers or corporate
executives -- most earn more than $100,000 -- with very senior pilots making
a quarter million or so. They require specialized training, and a pilot one
day may make a life-saving -- or fatal -- decision.

"One of the reasons why they are rather highly paid is that the flying
public and the airlines don't want a pretty good pilot flying a commercial
airliner -- they want a great pilot," said human resources specialist Carl
Weinberg, a principal at the Unifi Network division of
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP.

Another prominent Republican senator, John McCain, blasted pilots at United
Airlines for engaging in a no-overtime campaign to "satisfy their personal
greed" that was blamed for increased delays and cancellations during
contract talks last summer.

Pilots are the most costly of airline workers, and labor is the biggest cost
for airlines. Contract negotiations between their unions and management are
often bitter.

"The fact that they've bargained for these pay levels suggests that they're
getting paid what they ought to be paid based on supply and demand,"
Weinberg said.

Last year, the contract between UAL Corp.'s United, the world's largest
airline, and its pilots ignited a new round of cost increases throughout the
industry. Several major airlines are now in negotiations with various labor
groups.

Delta Air Lines Inc., the world's No. 3 carrier, is in talks with its
pilots, some of whom have, like United pilots last summer, refused overtime
as a pressure tactic.

How much the delays and cancellations resulted from the job actions is
difficult to sort out, because of a myriad of problems ranging from limits
on airport capacity to outdated air-traffic control technology to weather.

SENIORITY LADDER

In September, McCain compared the 1998 per capital U.S. income of $20,120
with the $342,000 a year that the most senior United pilots will make by
2004. But pilots must climb a fairly rigid ladder of seniority and training
to reach those levels. Once they do so, they cannot switch over to another
airline without losing that seniority.

Pilot pay is based on the years at the airline and the type of aircraft
flown. Starting out, pilots can make less than $20,000. But by the time they
reach captain at a major airline, usually in their mid-30s, they make well
over $100,000.

A pilot usually starts at a major carrier with eight to 12 years of prior
experience, said Kit Darby, president of Air Inc., an Atlanta-based career
resource firm for pilots and other airline workers.

They typically work only 15 days a month, amounting to about 80 flight
hours, the only hours pilots are paid for. They usually spend another 80
unpaid hours on duty at airports. Add time in hotels at destination cities,
and you get 240 to 320 hours pilots spend away from home a month, Darby
said.

Pilots have always been well paid, Darby said. Pay is usually a measure of
productivity and responsibility. An airliner captain is paid based on the
size of the aircraft, an indirect reflection of the number of passengers and
cargo tonnage and the distance they are moved.

"He's got a lot going in one direction and he's responsible for that. It's a
measure of his productivity, like a ship's captain," Darby said.

A co-pilot flying a Boeing 757 or 767 aircraft with five years of experience
at the airline makes $115,392 a year at Delta now, while at United, the same
worker makes $128,712.

A 10-year captain of Boeing 737-200s makes $157,152 at Delta, and $178,152
at United. The most senior captain, with 30 years of experience, flying a
Boeing 777 wide-body, makes $248,040 at Delta, and $254,748 at United.

Delta pilots are expected to top United pilots, who now stand with the
highest pay among passenger carriers.

Delta's recent wage offer included pay increases from 7 to 17.5 percent on
May 1, depending in aircraft type, with average raises for mainline pilots
rising to 30 percent by the end of the proposed four-year contract.

*****************************************

[Interceptor]

Hot off the press.

The company is about to present the pilots with the rehashed version of the EBA without any further discussions having taken place with the AFAP/Pilots.

Doesn't sound like an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement to me.

It's more of an Enterprise Dictating Agreement !

Anyway let the games begin as the NO Votes roll in.

[Keg]

Be interesting to see what the VB crews could do legally if VB gets up in the court case against Sydney Airport. The legitmacy of that particular 'handshake' deal could play across to another!

Interesting time!

[Interceptor]

From Capt OverUnder in another post

posted 24th October 2002 14:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rehashed EBA withdrawn last night , Afap/negotiating team encouraged to reply to management next week after meetings with pilots this week!

[Geddy]

Enterprise Bargining.

"I'm the Enterprise and you're the bargin"

Nice one, Johnny.