Eagle Air Interviewing

[Sqwark2000]

I am surprised this hasn't shown yet. Several people have been rung for interviews. Ground course for B1900D in Oct apparantly.



" It has begun " ;)


S2K

[Blue Line]

Thats good, because originally they it was no more till end of year, guess christmas is coming early :D

[kavu]

that's what i hear:)

[CT7]

Hmmm,

Contracted on 32K...

[DeltaT]

They interviewed about 2 weeks ago, 10 people.

[centurian]

Ive heard three missed out on a ground course and told not to apply again.

[apacau]

Are they doing charter or RPT or cargo?

[Eurocap]

NM are also about to hire more F/Os for their 10th ATR due Feb next year so that puts pressure on other regionals.

:D :D :D :D :D

[Dee Toxx]

So all you South Island born, ex Cant Aero club CPL's will be rubbing your hands together no doubt!

[kavu]

Well more to hand

13 people got rung up for interviews and only 4 are on the ground course. Hmm. Okay so you interview 13 and say one or two usually don't make the grade then that leaves 11-12 people who could still get in. I think the interview process was different but it all hinged on the sim ride. If you nailed the sim ride then you got in.

Ground course starts Monday 15 October for 6 days. The next ground course is set for November. For the Whakatane boys/girls and hopefully another lot from interviews.

Do well in the sim and you'll go far.

Another rumour is that they marked another 20 people for interviews. All very interesting.:)

Hope this helps :)

[max rate]

What sim?:confused:

[clutchcargo]

You get checked out in either Ardmore Flying School's or Massey's AST300 sim. Last time it was AFS.

Generally it is a 'shortish' IFR flight covering all the ususal stuff, holds VOR/NDB and ILS approach. The main thing with it is to know how to fly an approach.

Good for the instructors who use/have access to the equipment eh?

[Albatross]

Any special reason why they bought the sim evaluation into it? Is Air Nelson going to do the same?

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Probably just trying to make sure they don't get any more 'duds', so to speak....

OR: they are trying to imitate a real airline and reiterate to the prospective employees that they have finally made the big time! :rolleyes:

I heard that they are working to rule..... wonder if the new guys are prepared for the bumfight they are entering.....

[Sqwark2000]

The good word is that the Sim ride was introduced because there was a dissapointing NDB/RMI standard when new entrants were hired.

The sim ride is basically a SID using the NDB, enter a NDB hold, lap of the hold, NDB approach. No emergencies but they apparantly add some situation awareness into it by changing the wind. About 20-25 minutes all up.

S2K

[Borneo Wild Man]

Centurion,howzit bro?

[centurian]

BWM - good bro, not so busy though. Sounds like a few jobs around, OP is hiring soon as well i believe. Hopefully next time your down we can catch up for a pint.

[Anti Skid On]

What hours are they asking as the minimum??

[Barbers Pole]

Eagle will probably need a few more drivers as CX, Airnz & Mt Cook are all interveiwing pilots from eagle over the the next month. looks like xmas will come early for some of the troops.

Sim ride is probably a good idea as when I used to train at eagle it was amazing the number of pilots who we had to teach how to fly IFR, some were missing at lot of basic skills. eg, distances around arc's, how to correct for drift on app's & in holds, planning profiles, how to scan.

I guess it's because in a lot of cases they are being taught by inexperinced IFR instrutors who haven't had any practical operational experience. If you are going to do an Instrument rating go somewhere where they know there stuff.
Eagle fly into a lot of places where it's NDB app's only so you need to be sharp on the basics.

[CT7]

Albatross , now why would Air Nelson change their tried and tested way for getting the best out of GA?
There's nothing wrong with a wee chat for 20 odd min and getting a job on a way cool SAAB!
and...
Maybe Nsn hires people with a few more clues-oops-hours than Beagle Motors do..... & I hear their ind-action will slowly wind the crew-controllers hair out...
And ClutchCargo, I understand that the staff that were interviewed from AFS got a totally different sim ride... but still on the same machine....
We could also be hiring soon, most of our temps have gone to OP and one or two have interviews with NM so watch this space.
And remember that the SAAB has an AUTOPILOT! unlike the B1900........
Ciao

[Sharfted Groundhog]

CT7; don't kid yourself too much - Air Nelson has hired a few people with minimal clues and needed to be chopped before finishing their training..... I can think of a few that came as a big surprise when they were hired in the first place.

I think it's a bit of an ego problem if anyone thinks that one airline is better than the other when in reality, they both only fly turbo-props and without the parent company, both would cease to exist. From what I understand from those in the know, the only one that could survive on their own is the one based in CH!

Other point that could be made is that the track record of Air NS and industrial action isn't exactly in tip-top shape. Although Eagle may be working to rule, how many times in the past few years have Air NS pilots threatened industrial action or the likes?!

The Saab may have an autopilot and a hostie, but it's still only a turbo-prop and in the spirit of the big picture; once you have a couple of thousand hours on either, what difference is there, really?

In the long run; both jobs do the same thing; work you hard and give you a bit of drinking money! Either job can get you to where you want to go and both jobs could be gone tomorrow!

[clutchcargo]

Hey CT7, old boy still peddling the SAAB I see...

[max rate]

:cool:
And what a tired old piece of crap it is too!

[Albatross]

Really Max Rate? I hope not. I can fondly remember sitting at the hold point in NPE in a C152 cooking my nuts off waiting for the Saab to land. All other movements at the airport took a backseat when the mighty 340 arrived. Man if you guys weren't the coolest in the coolest aeroplane, and I'd get told as much, and often. And a hostie too, to bring in a hot coffee. And Efis too (didn't know what it was but it sounded cool). I couldn't imagine life being any better. :) :) :)

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Albatross: Obviously you don't have alot of ambition if your quite happy with a Saab coming in and out of small town NZ! I wonder if the alias you are writing under is indicative of your personality (fat, dumb and happy!).......

Don't put yourself on some sort of psydo-pedistal; sitting in your saab is no better or no worse than sitting in a metro, beech or jetstream - with the pay almost equal with someone who has just finished university and starting a career in technology or almost any other field, I wouldn't be too proud of the fact that you have to work 24-7 to earn your crust!

Possibly you should take up knitting to fill in those mealbreaks.... sounds like you don't have alot else to do (apart from sit in the crewroom looking at that piece of tin you call perfection:rolleyes: ).

Possibly you should have both hands above the desk when you think or write about your career! From the other reply's on this topic, it sounds like your've been on this track before..... surprise, surprise......

[Albatross]

Shafted Groundhog, that's all a bit harsh. Nothing wrong with small town NZ, I was merely aluding to the fact that the 340 looksd really good while you're in GA - it's the flashed thing to turn up in my neighbourhood. I am sure when CT7 first did his conversion he had only good things to say. And I still haven't managed to get a job flying it yet.

Knit 1, pearl 1, knit 1......................

[cyco]

I am always amazed at how quickly a post digresses.

Back to the topic, I have heard that they might be interviewing again before the end of the year as Air NZ is in the process of getting their own list for 40 slots together as we speak. (Thats 40 positions so the number interviewed will be more)

Can any light be shed before the topic of conversation end up with the favorite methods to hem a skirt.

Rgds

[SepsOff]

cyco, it continues to amaze me as well.

The sim ride is simply so Eagle doesn't spend $20K sending a new hire to Toronto and finding out that they can't fly S and L. Previously it's only cost them a couple of hrs tooling around in a Bandit or a Metro doing a type rating.

I assume those of you that bag the Saab overtake them in the cruise, or are just jelous?

P.S. Cyco,
Mum says the best way is to borrow her overlocker.

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Someone told me that Eagle are interviewing within the next few weeks but I'm sure that it's all over by now..... I know Air NZ will be interviewing in Nov and then again in Jan so I presume that'll leave a few slots free in both Eagle and Air NS (for those who want to leave their precious turboprops).

As for passing a saab in the cruise; trust me, it's not hard to overtake them soon after take off - especially for those who follow company procedures! It looks like they really are knitting up the front there; or maybe it's the hostie and that all-comforting rub they give when passing over a cup of coffee! A perk of the job, ah boys?

Albotross; it may be a bit harsh, but nothing like a bit of reality to bring one down to earth when one is spouting doo-doo's! If you haven't managed to get a job on one yet; dont panic, your not missing much (after the first 500 hours, it just becomes as boring as a C172 anyway! :D )

Cyco; get your FO to do it in the cruise; gives them something to do!:p

[Piz Buin]

Well put Shaft...

Stick with a "A" model guys, double overhead clitoris (CTOT) on the pedestal, the "B" only has a single. Captains of course! :D

[Albatross]

Thanks Shafted G. After dropping out of school in the fourth form I thought maybe I was too stupid to apply for Air Nelson. But I s'pose there is no harm in trying and my highest was a D+ in Home Ec. so maybe they will let me throw an omlette together during the interview. Got a fly of the CSU 172 coming up soon so I'm already moving on to flasher planes.

[cyco]

I have heard about the SIM ride which seems to be mainly checking your ability to use a RMI/ADF, but as for the rest of the interview process, how is that made up?

Any info as to the length of time, at which do you jump in the AST, what proportion of technical/personal questions and how long after you normally would hear back.

Thanks in advance

[kavu]

Interview usually just under an hour and a bit. Personal questions? Tell us a little about yourself, how do you handle stress, why do you want to fly for Eagle? the usual.

Techie questions, Rate of Descent on the G/S at 210 kts, dist around an arc, pressure altitude, working out TAS from IAS, bla bla bla

They then give you a plate of an airport and ask questions about it.

Read a NOTAM and decypher it for them.

The sim ride. Well two trains of thought here. Go and practice or don't. Even if you have very current and can fly IFR it wouldn't hurt to have a go and get used to the feel of the sim.

[CT7]

Well, It's not often I throw a stick at a hornets nest and stand back, but that was fun:p

Yep the SAAB is a turboprop, and is slow in the climb but it does have its comforts. Overtaken in the cruise, well the J41s do so easily, the rest not so well. Descent, all the same. (& I'm talking T/P here not jets)
Bored, sometimes, especially now uncle Koru is going to stop the Herald. ;)
Home almost every night. Mostly good duties. What more would you want for a lifestyle option.
Sounds maybe like someone might, sort-of be a bit jealous? Maybe not? Who knows, or maybe, even cares.
Pay, yup, certainly not the best, but hey, we're in NZ!!!

The B1900, nice bit of kit and the only option really, just a shame the Mgnt couldn't see to help the workers and get an A/P!

Air NZ interviews, DEC and two so far for JAN03, 35-40 drivers.
Mt Cook interviews done recently with 2 or 3 fom us and not all temps either...
Hopefully the next ones we take on will be perm, not this temp c#@p that we have at the moment.

Ciao!

[Sharfted Groundhog]

CT7: You done good, my friend! Certainly made for an interesting thread, that's for sure.

As I've said above, if you want the lifestyle and are satisfied with only flying regional and in turbo-props, then either Air NS or Eagle will do the trick for most..... a step up to the ATR's in CHCH but apart from that, a turboprops a turboprop, no matter which way you look at it! I do agree about the A/P in the 1900 though; what a major stuffup on their mngmt's behalf.... mind you, not the first stuffup the Air NZ Groups mgnmt has made, ah? Those temp contracts at Air NS were a shocker - and a complete explotation of a group of people still reelling from the T/Pacific experience!

As for being jealous about turbo-props or even Air NS; please....:rolleyes: some of us enjoyed the experience of moving on! Everyone's different and allowed to take their career in whichever avenue they see as best..... To think that one part of the ANZ group is better than any of the others is (in my opinion) just a little bit naive. We're all in this boat together, and if the collapse of T/Pacific has taught us anything, it should be a bit of humility and a sence of limited job satisfaction. I dont think any of us should be too relaxed about our long term job prospects....

[Albatross]

Shafted G. you could also have mentioned the enjoyment of plenty of sectors beating around the traps in regional flying as opposed to 26 million years as an s/o with Air NZ making coffee and watching your general aviation skills go down the toilet. :D

[Eurocap]

Hog,

It sounds like you need to put your ego to bed.
;) ;) ;)

[kavu]

Heard another rumour yesterday that Eagle is again hiring? How much of this rumour is true?

How many? Tell me more? Or are they just ringing people?

:)

[cyco]

I was told that they are NOT recruiting, but they are getting a pool together for when they next require.

Only contract positions as Air NZ has placed a cap on the full-time positions, however 6months to a year has found most guys on the collective agreement.

I know a few guys who were in the "pool" for the last 18 months and have only just been called up. The last 18 months however we will all agree have been non-standard as far as the industry goes ( I hope ).

And yes I have also heard that they are calling again as of the last few days

[centurian]

Not sure how many have been called up but interviews are early Nov.
I have been told that of the four that were accepted for a ground course recently, two have been given start dates before the end of the year. Can anyone confirm?

If this is the case, then start dates should be rather forthcoming for those accepted in this round.

[clutchcargo]

There is still a freeze on hiring fulltime pilots in the ANZ group, so Eagle have been getting around that by hiring contract staff up to the max number (1 per base - although I find it amusing that one pilot is supposedly based out of Whagerai and spends all of his time in BM).

This freeze is due to be lifted when AANZ take on new pilots, so I guess there is an element of preparedness going on.

Standby for the floodgates to open :D :D :D

[kavu]

Well contrary to popular belief they're interviewing again!!!;)

Is it another lot of 10 people or more this time?

Hopefully more people get in this time than last time!!!:D

And can I ask one question? Why are they looking at relatively low (multi) time people? Sure they have high total time but with only less than 200 hours multi what gives?

There are a multitude of people out there with close on 1000 hours multi - P in C? Why not these people???:confused:

Not trying to hype people up but what gives?

[Albatross]

And because of a cronic shortage of suitable applicants (minimum 1000hrs TT 100 Multi and half those if you're a girl), they are looking at cadets instead. Can't confirm the source though . :p :p

[Sqwark2000]

Kavu, Kavu, Kavu

I hope that you are not forgetting where once you came from now that you have a long awaited regional job ;) !!!

Some people are far more pro-active when it comes to getting the big jobs. Whilst some with gizzilion hours TT and 1000+ multi think that the regionals should break down their doors begging for them to come work for them, other lesser experienced souls are making the right moves with the schmoozing. Y'all can all fly a plane with your CPL and MEIR, but are you the right plod for the job. Maybe that's how you got yours Kavu :cool: .

Good luck everyone!

See you in the crew room :D :D :D

S2K

[slice]

Must be one really proffessional outfit then! I wonder if Jace the Ace will be getting a seat?

[kavu]

sQWARK2000

I'm not forgetting about people, I'm just wondering why some are selected above others even when they are "schmoozing" with everyone.

I'm not asking this for myself. I'm trying to look at it from an management perspective. I know they see alot of CV's but how do they go about choosing the chosen few for each interview.

I'm asking this in a positive way not a negative so please don't get me wrong.

Happy happy joy joy:D :D

[flybynighter]

Hey all, just tuning in...:D
Does anyone know how many are being interviewed??
Is there any substance behind this ANZ freeze rumour??
And finally, what would a new FO start on in the beech. I heard there has just been a pay incr....just curious aye!
any takers??
ciao , Fbn ;)

[DeltaT]

I've done 20hrs sim time on a Beech200, didn't even count as anything to Eagle. I looked at the 1900 cockpit poster on the wall, it just looked like the B200 with some polish.
You may say, so what, but the Eagle 1900 rating is 24 hrs sim time with no actual. (hair pull, hair pull, hair pull)

Anyone else substantiate the less than 200 multi rumour?

Yes, ANZ, WILL be recruiting

[Sqwark2000]

DeltaT,

I hope your not pinning your hopes on employment with Eagle based on 20 sim hours for a King Air!!!

With that theory in mind I'm surprised that Qant-arse has not hired me with my 15hrs sim time on the B747.

And yes, I have heard the <200hrs Twin time as well. Some blokey with 80 multi but high TT.

S2K

[DeltaT]

when you've had experience on something as close a -type- as that, you'd think it would kinda be of interest wouldn't you?!

I know what you are saying and sympathise but how does 15hrs sim time on the 747 compare to the time required to be type rated on the 747?
did it involve crew emergencies, line training and the like?

but, no, I am not naive enough to base it all on that, I have many other good points too!! :D

[NoseGear]

Albatross you knob, when did you get the idea that Eagle can't find suitable applicants? They will have no trouble finding people with far more than their minimums. There has been a lack of movement over the last 2 years so there are alot of people around with far more than Eagle minimums. As for your statement about half that if you're a girl, please, name one female who has gotten into Eagle with any less than any of the guys? Don't bother straining your tiny brain, because the answer is none. Your other statement, cadets, is hardly worth commenting on, but since you bought it up, Eagle never has and never will have a cadetship. One reason is insurance, the other is NZ has a robust GA scene, so why would they? Get your facts straight before you post again, and if you can't make a worthwhile contribution then p!$$ off.

Nosey

[SepsOff]

Have all you wanna-be's ever thought that it may not be how many hrs you've got, but how you come across at the interview and an excess of Testosterone possibly ain't what they're looking for.
Maybe that's why the girls get in?

[Albatross]

Nosegear, it was just an amusing wind up so don't get too upset. But your starter for 10 is - when did Eagle reduce their experience requirements for Captains and why? Answers on the back of a fag packet please.

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Eurocap; I don't have an ego problem - or at least, nothing more than any other pilot!

Albatross; don't disagree with your thoughts on being a S/O making coffee for umpteen dozen years - and I can name a few people who think they have this job and think they are god and enjoy telling everyone "I'm an International Airline Pilot" :rolleyes:

Some of us have been lucky enough to miss out that step in our career (and I'm not saying either way if I'm included in that lucky few), but what I am saying is that none of us should think that we are immune from redundanies and have 100% job security, no matter where we work.

I actually agree with Sepsoff; maybe it's not the total hours that you have, but more the attitude you portray in the actual interview. Maybe they are hiring more females because they don't come across so stuck up and egotistical - and you can't argue that there are many pilots around like this.....

Back on the topic; the pilots who have been sitting on Air NZ 'yes' letters from last year have been brought in for another wee chat to see if they still like the look of their eyebrows for hiring in the early new year..... Cathay are also taking quite a few for interviews out of the regionals which will leave some huge gaps as well.......Looks like there will be movement throughout multiple levels in the country; about damn time!:)

[Albatross]

It is ridiculous though isn't it. You interview a person a year or so previous and they jump through all the hoops to your satisfaction. Then you turn around and say wait a year for a start date and we will interview you again to see if we still like you. What about having a system like any normal airline and giving you a job after you are successfully interviewed for a job. And the thing is plenty would crawl over broken glass for an Air NZ job so why does the company play such pathetic games. If it had competition would the boot be on the other foot. To an outsider that process looks a bit f**ked up. And don't get me started about Mt Cook, you pass the interview and they say they'll call about a job, slots come up so they interview again and give subsequent applicants jobs instead. :confused: :confused:

[Eurocap]

Hog,

Please tell me what makes an "International Airline Pilot" better than any other pilot!!!!

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Eurocap; Don't ask me! I haven't figured it out yet either!!! That's why I included the 'rolleye smilie' after it and was agreeing with Albotross about the actual functions of being a S/O for a dozen or so years. I personally find it all a bit pathetic. A pilots a pilot; don't you agree? What I was emphasising is that everyone takes a different path in their career and thats all well and good. What we all shouldn't be doing is thinking that one airline is either better or more secure than the other....

I suppose you could liken it to bus drivers.... those who drive the big flash coaches probably think they are better than those who drive the inner city commuters around in those old dungers......

I agree again with Albotross; how many damn hoops do we as pilots have to jump through and how could we possibly have changed in twelve months so dramatically that all of a sudden they don't like us any more? Me thinkith management playing games....

I understand from the last few people who got into Mt Cook that it's all about who bottom you kiss, not how many hours you have anyway! Lovely!

[Eurocap]

Congratulations on a well presented answer to a loaded question.

I agree 100% with you in relation to my previous question.

I would have to disagree with your last comments in regards to being acceptable to Mount Cook. I do believe that anybody who shows a keen interest in any company prior to being interviewed stands a better chance than those who apply when they hear that jobs are forthcoming.

Its called "Showing a keen interest" and it is also allowing those that have a say in who is being employed, a more informed look at the prospective candidate. The number of hours that a person has does not matter, as long as they have more than the minimum, but attitude does.

I hope you do well in whatever you attempt.

Rgds

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Yes, I agree with your comments about attitude and meeting minimum hour requirements. What I have a problem with are pilots who use their fathers or close family friends to get into an airline, rather than their own personality merits or those who quite blatently 'suck up'. I know for a fact that one of the last pilots to be taken on by Mt Cook was one of these and although a average to below average pilot, got the job in front of many others who have been showing an interest in Mt Cook for many years now in hope of a job and are perfect candidates for the airline just because this person took the hiring-firing guy out for drinks and sent him xmas cards?!

Do you think that's fairplay?:confused:

On the otherhand, I do believe in karma - what goes around, comes around.....

[Eurocap]

Hog,

An interesting comment.

Did you apply for a job with Mount Cook?

Bear in mind that if what you say is true, that individual will show those dubious qualities during his/her training and if they don't meet the standards after approaching the end of their course they will find that the job is no longer there.

Mount Cook Airline has been known to chop course members in the past because of a lack of ability.

Also bear in mind that applicants try to sell themselves as the best when they are being interviewed and I suppose anything goes if you are after a job.

[max rate]

Euro, I remember you telling me a while ago you were not a chooky............just about every post you have is in some way related to Mt Cook.......gonna still deny it?:)

[Kiwilad]

went to see ops mmgr at Mt Cook and they prefer you going in and seeing them in person, rather than posting or phoning, I guess this show keen interest in wanting to work for Mt Cook. On the day most applicants will be trying there best to be the best option for their employer. I hear from friends alot in the airlines that the big thing is finding the people who have the right attitude, and this is done alot by friends, family and the likes putting your name fwd. This can be a double edged sword, someone trying to get you a job when you might not be up to it, probably won't be asked there opinion again. Getting the chop in the initial stages would also put the damper on career aspirations.
Hog, you said don't get you started about Mt Cook have you had an interview??? Eagle interviewing also can leave alot to be desired.
Cheers

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Hog, you said don't get you started about Mt Cook have you had an interview??? Eagle interviewing also can leave alot to be desired.

A couple of minor points, kiwilad..... I never said the first point about Mt Cook. What I actually said was that I didnt agree with using family and/or friends instead of actual personality and/or experience to get into the airline.

As for whether or not I've had an interview, I don't think that's really applicable given the context of the statements I actually made.

Thirdly; the actual thread started out talking about Eagles interviewing techniques and the need for a sim ride at Ardmore.....

Eurocap; I understand that some people will do anything to get a job, but really; how far is going too far??? ;)

[Kiwilad]

Hog
Not accusing you of the first point but am saying that employers use family and friends to back up what they see at the interview because at the interview people want to portray what they think is the best candidate for the job. Sometimes that ain't who/what they actually are.

Hear Eagle are interviewing again today WED and doing SIM rides tomorrow.
Good luck to all.
Cheers

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Using referees of any kind is common practice in any industry and I don't have a problem with that...... Using people to get you in interview in the first place makes the playing field a bit uneven, I think...... As I have previously said, how far is going too far to try and get a job.....

Is taking the boss out for drinks OK? What about 'favours' of any kind? We all know the rumour of how some people got their jobs! :D :eek:

How far is going too far???? Is it right and/or fairplay???

[Eurocap]

MR

I am not in the business to confirm or deny.

In the past I have commented on other issues, ie, ATC, other airlines etc. etc. Does that make me an Air Traffic Controller or an emplyee of an airline?

Once again this is a forum where one has the oppertunity to comment without disclosure. Lets keep it that way.

Chin, Chin.

[Ajax]

Soooo ... anybody heard the results of last week's round of interviews? How many, and what sort of hours did they all have?

[Anti Skid On]

I posted about 4 pages ago asking what hours they were asking for, and still no to$$er has came up with a figure!

Someone must know what the turboprop boys get in on (need to know before potentially wasting NZ$ 000's

[centurian]

All those interviewed have been told to expect an answer by the end of this week. 10 people interviewed again

[oncewasakiwi]

CT7 you impied that starting pay was 32k surley they must have sector/duty pay to top that up.
I dont surpose anyone out there is willing to tell me what the starting pay for AirNZ F/O would be ?

[Sharfted Groundhog]

You don't start in Air NZ as an F/O; you start as a S/O in the majority of the cases...... the pay is not great, I think I've heard figures of the early 40's and don't forget there are pilots in Air NZ that have been S/O's for coming up 10 years now, so don't expect to move too quickly off a pretty crappy salary.

Anti Skid On: I'm sorry, I thought someone had answered your question many pages ago.... ie; 100 hours multi and 1000 hours total. I think their initial rate of pay is in the low to mid 30's, which in NZ is incredibly hard to live on, especially if your still paying off your flying and don't have rich relatives to scroung off!

Yes, there will be allowances on top of that but they arn't anything to write home about from what I understand. The other bad thing about allowances is that you can't count on them. Banks in NZ don't count them in trying to get homeloans and they can dry up pretty quickly when alot of standby's come your way.

I've just heard that another couple of Eagle pilots have been called up for round 2 at Air NZ, so I'd say that 'pool' of pilots needed for Eagle will definately be needed!

[cyco]

Just had a call from a good friend today who was in the last round of interviews. He has been offered a ground course in mid Dec no other info as to a start date. But I welcomed him into the fold none the less.:cool:

As for the Air NZ SO pay scale that was beeing refered to. You start on $40k once you start on the line, but after 12 months from when you started your initial training (not line training) that goes up to around $80 plus allowances. The guys who have been in the back seat for up to 10 years are sitting on around $100k plus allowances. Not a bad wicket for being able to stay in NZ and pass the tea/coffee forward. But I do prefer Cathays approach to the SO position (one of the few other airlines that have them QF included.) where you are a SO for a max of 5 years.

Back to Eagle, the total time has been around 1500 - 2000 with multi 400 - 1000 from guys I know, there may be some who are outside of these though:D

[Albatross]

Cyco, what happens when you go right seat domestic on a vintage 737 after your 10 year stint with the 90 year olds in the 400? I thought Freedom were tagged on at the bottom of the Air NZ seniority so you started with them on about $34K. No-one has explained how Freedom fits in with the seniority yet. :confused:

[SepsOff]

Hog,
Those with rich rellies don't bother with Eagle, they buy a job with Freedom! If that fails, they could always get daddy to buy them a 727.

[cyco]

In answer to your question Alby, they dont fit in.

Freedom at present are not part of the seniority structure at Air NZ, there has been talk about merging the two groups, but at present the senior SO's are either going onto the B733 as FO or waiting for a B767 slot. The longest serving SO that I know has 7 years service.

They may give up a bit of allowances as they no longer have the monopoly on the lucritive Japan sectors, but their base salary goes up. No chance of a drop to the $34 you talked about.

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Cyco: Nope, I definately know of someone coming up to ten years as an SO with Air NZ..... and I wouldn't put my money on the Freedom boys remaining separate as far as seniority goes. I understand from union memos that the seniority for both airlines might be changing in the very near future with 'swapping' going on in both directions..... I suppose we'll all have to wait and see.

If QF buys into ANZ and SJ gets off-loaded, things may change anyway, so I suppose there is no point in trying to guess a crystal ball when the damn ball keeps changing shape!

Albotross; the contract at Freedom changed a year or so ago from what I understand and the pay and conditions are a hell of a lot better than what they used to be. The figures your quoting were from the old pay structure and you can add a fairly substantial amount to that for their starting pay (ie 10-12K).

SepsOff; even those with rich rellies who buy type ratings have to get the minimum hours somewhere...... and those with rich rellies usually also have connections in ANZ who will get them a job in the mother-ship anyway, and then they don't have to part with any money at all! Not a bad scheme overall, ah? :D

Are you guys sure about those figures of an SO earning $100K? Thats a damn lot of money for doing st*ff all! I didn't the FO's on the 737 get that much and I can't see the pilots taking a paycut at any stage in a so-called promotion!

[cyco]

Firstly I must say that yet again we have taken a fork in a road and I think before this thred has done its dash we will have commented on each and every airline in Godzone.

Hog as far as the merger SJ & NZ pilot groups you are right in saying there has been a lot of talk, however it is important to realise that "seniority" will still prevail and when you look at SJ most guys/gals have only been in the company for a few years compared to NZ where most started before I stopped ****ting in my nappies. Therefore if anything it would open up more opportunities for the NZ crew as they would have first dibs on the SJ commands based on seniority.

As far as comparing B737 FO and the SO's you cant as they move both ways (no inuendos intended) some 73 fo's go onto long haul for the experience as so's as well as the so's going onto the 73 to do some actual flying for a change.

Clear as mud aye.

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Time will tell, I suppose....

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Cyco; been thinking about what you said about ANZ pilots moving to SJ.... here's a thought; why doesn't the pilot group (or at least those still young enough to remember pooping in their nappies) put pressure on some of those crusty old b@ggers to retire!

Why should you take commands at Freedom if you decided that ANZ was the path that you wanted to take instead of paying for the type rating option?

How do you feel about say, a pilot coming across from SJ and taking a command or FO's position on a bigger a/c (ie 767) for experience ?

I'm sorry and I may have the wrong end of the stick here, but why should ANZ guys have their cake and eat it too? If they go across to SJ, do they take the pay cut and drop the super scheme, extra allowances and travel perks as well for the time that they are at SJ?

Food for thought.

[kavu]

hey all

how many have got the phone call from eagle from the interviews. i have heard of two people but nothing else. they were talking of putting 6 on the ground course which is supposed to start around 9 dec.

and i also heard from a source that anz will be taking the freedom boys ahead of everyone else when they recruit. so a job at freedom is probably the first step.

more rumours also of another lot of interviews probably at the end of the year or early next year.

and again i ask the question because it baffles me is why so many non GA pilots getting the nod? lots of instructors with little or no ATO times? Don't get me wrong these boys have high time but hardly any in ATO's.

Sure along with the min's times required it stuns me to see many of the GA operators out there with guys with a stack lot of time getting passed by instructors who can flight a sim for their interview and have never experience the real thing. How come???:confused: :confused:

[GAMAN]

Yeah Kavu it baffles the hell out of me as well. Why would eagle be turning down good pilots with lots of multi IF time some of them with over 100hrs turbine PIC? They are all good guys as well.
It seems that eagle are taking a big punt on the inexperienced( by way of multi I.F.). They must be trying to mold them into how they like it done like the military do.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :(

[SepsOff]

Kavu and GAMAN,
The difference between a low time instructor and a high time (relatively) GA single pilot is sometimes the instructor hasn't had the chance to learn any bad habits.
From what i've heard the new instructors aren't doing to bad a job with their training.

[Sharfted Groundhog]

It's probably a case of being able to more easily teach a relatively low time instructor in the 'eagle' way of flying rather than a GA pilot with habits already formed. A bit unfair but it's been that way for a while now. Alot of GA pilots with good time usually by-pass Eagle and end up at Air Nelson or Mt Cook (depending on where they did their flying). I've never been able to work out the psych behind it all either, but then thats management logic for you!

I don't know of how many pilots have interviews at Eagle, but I know of at least 4 guys from Eagle that have interviews at Air NZ, if that helps.

I've heard the same rumour about Freedom and Air NZ, but there are alot of rumours going around at the moment, and who knows what to believe. I'd be surprised if Freedom interviewed so soon, especially since I know that there are still a few pilots around who went away and did a type rating around the time of 9/11 and didn't end up with a job with SJ at the end of it as promised.... There is also the rumour that the union has had a bit to play in what is going on there and that they want Air NZ pilots to be able to move across if they want (for commands)..... again, who knows what to believe!

If any of you are waiting for Eagle interviews or the upcoming Air NZ; GOOD LUCK! ;) :D

[GAMAN]

Can anyone reasonably explain to me what these bad habits may be and how they can outweigh having 500 odd hours of multi single pilot air transport ops??????
I know who I would prefer up the front going into somewhere on an NDB/DME with the wind blowing and the rain.....raining at night.

[Albatross]

Easily explained - it's New Zealand. Same reason why a huge bunch of Eagle and Air Nelson drivers have banged on the door to Air NZ and just can't get a look in. Even though they have been flying round the traps for the last 5 or 10 years and updating their CV every 6 months. :rolleyes:

[CT7]

Hi Guys (oops and I suppose girls!!;) )

I think we all know that Airlines have a weird way of employing pilots. We all know people who should've got in and didn't, likewise we know of guys/gals in jobs that should've gone to more deserving people.

C'est la vie

However, on the bright side, Air NZ is running interviews in Dec & Jan for the people from the last attempt in Sep 01 (and who knows who else). Most that got through the Ansett version have been given a call, most but not all. Some chap/s from aussie also got the call. Some that didn't get the last nod (Sep 01) have also got interviews.
So it's a mixed bag.
Given that some are from NSN, EAG and Origin, one might assume that there will be movement in these areas so keep updating.

Apparently NSN (& EAG) is/are short crewed (what's new) most of the NSN temps have jobs with Origin or Mt Cook or have had Cathay interviews so who knows if they will be available. (what a costly exercise:D )
All one can say is get the hours, the subjects, keep updating and plugging away.

Best wishes to all for the festive season:):D

[Scud driver]

An interesting if somewhat convoluted thread. If i can add my 10cents worth....

On Interviewing...

We are all licenced professional pilots who roughly have the same experience with our peers who are competing for the same jobs as we are so there is generally nothing to distinguish us there.
1.Tech questions: are usually broad brush, general and practical in nature ie Top of descent into HN via the arc in an unprex aircraft at 180kts. They are designed to see you have the basic level of knowledge.

2. Sim rides: are there to examine basic skills. They are NOT trying to grade your ability as ace of the base, just see you can track/hold and do an NDB approach usind an RMI (and FYI not the poor mans version that is in most GA IFR aircraft). The history behind Eagle doing sims, as someone quite accuratly pointed out earlier on, was due solely the fact that with the major hiring that went on between 1999 and 2001 the experience level dropped dramatically and people were slipping through the net with virtually no idea about flying IFR.

3. Personal questions and attitude: There is a principle applied to interviewing in aviation called FIFO, some would have heard of it. It stands for "Fit In Or F*** Off". What an employer is looking for is not only technical competence but workforce harmony ie can this person i am talking to relate to others and get on in a group/crew situation?At the end of the day both guys should flying to the SOP's but how are you going to relate to the other guy, what are you going to talk about for days you are together, how will you handle the enevitable personality clashes that can arise for no other reason than people are different? It is most often flightdeck relationships that cause problems/accidents not technical incompetence! If there is any advice from my small pocket of experience i can give in this regard it would be; be confident of your abilities but NOT over confident and NEVER arrogant, be humble about your achievements and always, ALWAYS tell the truth, good bad or indifferent. You are who you are, be proud of it and don't pretend to be something you are not because you will get found out.

Be under no misapprehension, the people interviewing you know alot more about you than you realise!


On "people getting jobs before me, because their Dad is a pilot..."

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar!!! Be happy for people who get jobs because of a contact, at the very least because you don't know when that person might be in a position to influence your next move. But more importantly you would want people to feel happy for you if you got a job. Further more if you get an opportunity as someone said earlier it is just that, an opportunity to pass the interview or the training etc, it DOES NOT mean you forfeit the need to do the interview/training.If you want to tie yourself in knots worrying about stuff like that, you obviously don't get out much!

On "this airline vs that airline..."

Every job is a trade off.

In the turbo prop world, it don't matter a jot. It is still all domestic turbo prop work. Enjoy it because it can be some of the best flying you will ever do. For those who choose to be lifers in the regionals all power to them but they ain't going to earn alot of dosh and most guys in that position have thought that through and are at peace with their decision.The other point worth considering is that you get to the highest level you can achieve relatively quickly and you still have another 30 plus years doing the same job. if you do move on to the majors it is 90% about the dosh and even though the progress is slow at some, there are still challenges to be had ahead of you. If you do make the leap to the majors as an S/O don't for as minute think that professional job satisfaction is included in the package but contrary to what "Sharfted Ground hog" et al say its not all about your skills as a barrista (coffee maker for the uneducated).

Hope my comments can help those prospective interviewees who originally started the thread.

[cyco]

Scud,

nice post and well brought back to the subject at hand.

Regarding the personality questions expected and how to handle them your advise on Honesty and further to that Integrety are the best things to get across during any interview, unfortunaly these are two things you either have or you dont.

The news from the last round of interviews is 3 have been offered a ground course. Well done to them and for those who didnt make it dont give up, your skills will be required soon as the up cycle has clearly begun.

[SepsOff]

Garman,
Why can't a GA guy with "500 odd hours Single Pilot" get in?
You answered your own question, Eagle (and the others for that matter) have a crew up front!

[GAMAN]

StepsOff, what you fail to realise is that there are many GA companies that operate with two crew on some of their aircraft. From my experience there is no "you're doing it wrong, I'm better than you" crap or anything else along those lines in the cockpit of these aircraft.

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Scud Driver; totally agree with most that your've written, except for the bit about 'skills as a coffee-maker'..... from my memory, what I was actually writting agreed with your sentiments that job satisfaction doesn't get automatically included in jobs and that long-haul pilots are no better than short-haul or domestic drivers. I also went on to say that we all take different paths in our careers and those choices that we make are our decisions and we should all be happy with them (and not 'down' anyone else that makes different choices). Isn't that what you are saying, just in different words?

Using other people to get you jobs is fine if they in turn can help others. The thing I have found is that they usually don't, and it makes the playing field uneven for the majority, not the minority.

As a matter of interest, we have spoken about base salaries, but nothing about allowances and the rest of the packages available..... does anyone have any idea what the overall package is for S/O's or F/O's with Air NZ? Does it change depending on what aircraft you are employed on or length of service?

For those also waiting on interviews with Eagle, does anyone know what their allowances add up to on an annual basis?

[SepsOff]

GAMAN,
I haven't failed to realise anything. You said quote "...having 500 odd hours of multi single pilot air transport ops...
If there are some GA Men flying around two crew using a good set of S.O.P's then that's useful. If they are just single pilot with the other front seat filled, then that ain't so useful.

Rightly or wrongly, there is an 'Eagle way' and like it or not it is different to the Aztec and Partbanana way.

As Scud said, FIOFO

[Scud driver]

For those asking, and these are ball park only, but good enough...

Eagle allowances 6k

Air NZ allowances,I believe depends on what you are doing ie 737 fleet will be considerably less due to the fact that most of the work is Domestic and regional (ie AUS and PAC Islands), 767/747 getting up towards 20-25k and mostly due to a very favorable exchange rate and more importantly where you are on the seniority list. Air NZ has a thing called the PBS (preferential bidding system) which means that the mosre senior fellas in each rank get the pick of the trips and therefore will generally head for the more lucrative destinations (ie Japan).

But as any of these fellas will tell you THEY DONT BRING THE ALLOWANCES HOME!!!!!! get my drift.

and sharfted G Hog...if my memory serves, you started off down that road but back tracked nicely!

[Sharfted Groundhog]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:D :p :D :p

[#1AHRS]

Gaman & Kavu
You can just about train a monkey to fly an IFR aircraft but it is the interpersonal or CRM skills that count when you enter into the world of multi crew operations. Back in the mid 80's I was involved with C & T at Eagle (bandit & chieftain days) I couldn't help but notice that it was the ex instructors that slotted into the captain role fairly well. I suspected at the time that it had something to do with the ability to manage other people. Many CRM courses in various parts of the world since then have confirmed to me that a good instructor, by virtue of having to get the best out of people in their instructional role, will usually develop an excellent CRM toolbox at an early stage in their career that will serve them well in the multi crew environment.:)

[prospector]

1Ahrs. Your statement that a monkey can be trained to fly IFR,and then leading to CRM being the answer. I would have interpreted that statement to have meant that you can train two monkeys to fly IFR together as long as they are polite to each other. Your statements have some truth, but only some, and I speak from SPIFR ops from the 60s, before Eagle Airways was even thought of. There are horses for courses, each operator requires different talents from their crews, and SPIFR operations are not able to undertaken by all, personally myself I have tried multi crew positions and have found that after single pilot ops where one ca

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Prospector: I found your reply quite confusing, and having sent it without finishing it, it sort of leads to a dead-end, so to speak, as to what exactly you were trying to get across.

CRM is a whole lot more than just two pilots talking to each other, and not everyone is very good at it. This includes some instructors (who are damned hopeless at their jobs as an instructor, even if they are good pilots, mainly because not everyone can break tasks down easily enable to teach them) and alot of pilots who have SPIFR time. They get so used to flying on their own and making their own decisions that they have huge problems including another pilot in the whole decision making process. Alot of them also have problems following SOP's because they have been flying in dodgy situations where they did whatever they wanted. I personally think that #1AHRS has a valid point, although one must be careful not to broadbrush all SPIFR and/or instructors with the same tar.

Maybe the problem Prospector, is the fact that the industry has developed (for the better, hopefully) and become more safety conscious and possibly left you behind, hence your discomfort at multi-crew situations. Those who have only been in the game for a few years are more capable of adapting to new situations and requriements of airlines. Just a thought......

[fly real fast]

So what everyone is saying is that if someone had an instructors rating AND experience SPIFR they would be the perfect candidate for the likes of Eagle? funny that most pilots SPIFR are current or past instructors.

[kavu]

frf

i think eagle will take you if you have the following:

work for ardmore flying school
have a cpl with 80 hr or less of multi time P in C
work for ardmore flying school
have around 2000 hours tt
work for ardmore flying school
have a big smile on your face
work for ardmore flying school

now from memory you and i don't have the above so i'll see you in the pub for a pint next time i'm in town :D

[GAMAN]

I was speaking to someone from CX the other day who deals with recruiting and he was completely baffled by this as well. Onwards to Air Nelson or Origin I guess.

[fly real fast]

Kavu,

Sent in an application to Ardmore Flying School yesterday. Hopefully be accepted and fast track my way to those 1900's.
When are you off on "holiday"???

From what I have been told, there is a world of difference between flight instruction and SPIFR ATO's. Wonder if any instructors have commenced an actual missed approach (by themselves) , flown (themselves) to minima's? or taken off in bad weather(by themselves). If it doesnt work out the way it should you can always blame the student.

[kavu]

frf

the difference between a flight instructor and a ga pilot flying spifr is the lollipop hanging out of the mouth of the instructor with the 3 brand new crunchie bars on his shoulders. the ga pilot can't afford any of those ;)

[nzer]

Firstly, I am not nor never have been an S/O - I have however been the relief pilot in a 3 pilot crew on many occaisions - both as an F/O and as a Captain. I suggest that to describe the S/O role, as prescribed under NZ CAA Rules and by in practice by ANZ, in derogatory terms merely because the S/O's do nor carry out TO and Ldgs, is arrogant, and ignorant of the realities of longhaul/international operations. Every role/job in aviation, from the new "C" - Cat, to a topdressing pilot, to a T/Prop Commutor Captain has professional challenges, and each job should be respected as such. Let's act as professionals towards one another.

[gerard rea]

Hi all

Well guys if you don't make it into Eagle you can come to GBA and fly our aircraft. :D

And NZER

What are your comments about?:confused: Do you have the right thread:confused:

[fly real fast]

gerard rea:

Why?

[GAMAN]

I'd like to know who the cool guy is that thought up the idea of putting up a bull**** post and using Gerrard Rea as a user name. Good one, you're the greatest.

[gerard rea]

GAMAN

Why? Is it cutting a little too close to home? :p

[Sharfted Groundhog]

NZer; Jeez! Talk about getting the wrong end of the stick! If you go back and read the previous pages what we were actually saying is not alot different from your input, except we were saying that no one has the right to think themselves above anyone else (ie S/O's in ANZ thinking themselves above an SJ or Mt Cook pilot just because they do international long-haul ops).

Kavu; sounds like a bit of jealousy...... if you've been in this industry long enough, you'll know that quite a few of the airlines have favourite recruiting grounds, ie Mt Cook & Canterbury Aero Club and Eagle and Ardmore operators in general. A few years back, the only way to get into Rex Aviation / Northern Commuter was through Auckland Aero Club. Thats the way of the world, my friend. Get used to it or find another profession, because there is nothing you can do about. I'm not saying it's right, but go and talk to Wayne T about it, I'm sure it'll do your prospects very well for the near future! I have to agree though that alot of instructors wouldn't know one end of an instrument approach from the other!

Gaman; CX's interviewing techniques are just about as baffling though! Maybe you should be asking your 'friend' why this is, instead of complaining about some other airline. Why bother frying small fish?!??! ;)

As for Gerard Rea using his own name, I understand that the man is a bit more switched on than that - even if he was desperate enough to make a plug for his silly little tin-pot 'airline'!

[Homebrew1]

Hi Kava, and friends,

The last seven years of GA and Instructing have been great. The good thing about Instructing is it teaches you how to interact with other people. Teaching Law, Met, Aerodynamics and other subjects day after day seems to have payed off, because its given me a good overall understanding of aviation in general, which I suppose, helps your overall ability to safely operate an aircraft. One thing I'v found is when you have to teach something to a student, for example an NDB/DME approach over and over, you get pritty good at it. Anyway the training is going well at Eagle and im looking forward to being checked to line. I'v been wondering if I should keep my B Cat current anyway, I haven't decided yet. I'll keep in touch!!

Don't give up until your dead!:D

[Kermit 180]

Hi Toby Jac! Glad things are going well, and well put about the instructing. See you around dude.

Kerms

[Homebrew1]

Hi Kermit 180, hope is all well and good on the big boy for his efforts with Eagle. Hopefully we will see you there in the not so distant future. Make sure when you are in this neck of the woods you come and stay.

Regards Toby jacDon't give up until your dead!!

[CT7]

Hang in there Guys,

Mt Chook is interviewing another 6 from Eagle this week.
Nelson is looking at its 17th SAAB.

:D :)

[Eurocap]

17th SAAB. Fat chance. Dreams are cheap!

[Selandia Baru]

A message here for Gamin and Kavu to take heed would be that Eagle, like any other airline, doesn't owe you a job and it is their recruitment policy not yours..;)

[CT7]

Eurocrap.

Well Eng sources are usually right. And it's even coming from your island.....

Not that it affects you! But may have some bearing on those Kiwis looking for their first step into 3rd or 2nd level aviation, you know, those ones that have POSITIVE outlooks!

[SepsOff]

GAMAN and KAVU
Just out of interest, why do you both end a (sometimes) inteligent post with a wanky catch phrase??

[Sqwark2000]

I was told tonight also that Air Nelson were getting a 17th SAAB and also that the 16th SAAB is having trouble being crewed. Crews being called in on their days off to crew the 16th whilst training continues (I presume that some of the Metro guys/gals are still being upgraded)

S2K

[Far Canard]

Metro pilots upgraded to the SAAB

Ask the people who had commands and are now R/H seat

:(

[SepsOff]

FC,
They wouldn't be some of the same guys that jumped ship from Eagle all those years ago to direct entry Metro commands ahead of existing Air NSN Co's, because there was no seniority list by any chance??

[Eurocap]

There are a few who have Saab Commands who are junior to some of those that had Metro commands who are now F/Os on the Saab.

[Albatross]

If this thread shows anything it shows what a screwed up bunch of people make up NZ aviation

[Warren Sattler]

Hi Boys :p

frf, I got your CV but sorry you do not meet the requirements... we prefer our instructors with high instructor time, no ATO or IMC experience and also a second (prefer asian) language.

Kavu,
we issue lollipops to our instructor's as an incentive, you therefore, don't need to afford them :D

bye bye boys ;)

Warren

[CT7]

Those guys with SAAB commands ahead of those senior to them are because they chose to take an advertised command at an out-base.
All had that opportunity, but some preferred to stay in Nelson.
It's always been the same. If you want a command, go to an outbase.
Others knew the Metro was going but still wanted command time so took the gamble. At least they have some CMD time in their books & some more knowledge under their belts....
Those that jumped from Eagle hopefully won't have to wait long (if they don't mind moving) as they are nearer the top.

Really, nothing too untoward!:p

[avagobro]

you ol dog

still dishing out lollipops to the your children at ardmore huh. how is zk evb , must be on its third set of wings now for sure. was on its second set when i flew it. thought you might have been a first officer on a metro by now but i guess you wouldnt meet the regionals requirements. you will be pleased to hear that i have continued flying when i finally left ardmore and now have a real job.....i think..........whats news??

[Selandia Baru]

This was a fairly informative thread until it degenerated into a slagging forum for the children of aviation who prefer to log in useing other (prominent) peoples names. This being a loud and clear display to the rest of the aviation community of the type of professional pilots that our industry is currently producing . Good luck with your future airline psych tests guys.

[pantyripper]

My original post didnt get any replies, so I thought I would give this one another life. If you guys cut the crap, I would like some info and tips for the eagle interview, including eagle bases etc. cheers

[Scud driver]

Pantyripper

I posted some info that may be useful on page 6 of this thread.

Cheers
Scud

also bases incl; KK, WR, AKL, TG, WK, HN, GS, AP, RO, BM

[CT7]

Don't forget to update with Air Nelson as well. :O

[Woomera]

Time to close this one to save server workload.

Feel free to start part 2
_____________________

Woomera - Dunnunda and Godzone Moderator