Shortage of real Flight Instructors ?

[DIAMOND]

I read lots of "but there are no jobs" comments on this forum. I could go on for 500 lines on this, however I will just say that in 25 years within this industry, I have never before known a time when Grade 1 and Grade II flight instructors were so difficult to find.
Sure, who would want to risk their lives in 30 year old, 10,000 + hour, single engine aircraft, no decent avionics and timexpired engines, for 20 bucks an hour working for GEWizz flying school and the CFI, "MR. I'MTerrific, watch what I can do, do ,do ####". The reality is no professional pilot should, however not all schools are in this mould.
I know of a really good school in Adelaide that has been running for over 25 years who just can't find qualified staff. The school owns brand new aircraft (like 2002 models), all GPS equipped, with everything that opens and shuts. Not these silly ultra lights (sorry Ultralight fans - but I'm not ) but real trainers from the GA stable. The flight manuals use real words like King, Continental, Made in North America etc.
This same school pays award or better wages, is ISO 9000 quality certified, an impecable safety record and is also a Registered training organisation with the Australian registration council and VET. The other great thing about this school is that it is not a "factory" school and not like joining the military. Sounds to good to be true !!! Well even they can't get qualified instructors, so how is the rest of the industry going.
I know another school in Adelaide that has been in Business for over 40 years and is a nationally known brand name, who had to close down their entire flight training facility for about 6 months because they couldn't find someone qualified to be their CFI. I'm told they have now found one but he has not yet started.
As I alluded to in my opening comment, I could go on and on about why this situation now exists, however I would like some constructive feedback via the forum.
I hope that some of the experience currently lost to Aviation in Australia, ie the 50+ age group from Ansett, Kendall and Hazeltons flight crew, might consider coming back into Instructing.
If you are sitting back in your chair thinking, "this guy is full of ####", I can only assure you the shortage is real. If you think you can help and have the qualifications yourself, reply via this forum or better still send a private reply that will be emailed to me.

[dragchute]

Award wages for a Grade 1 multi-approved, IFR rated instructor would fall short about $80,000 on what most of us are able to command in the corporate or regional airline market. If said schools want to match the ante send an e-mail!

[DIAMOND]

Your dead right Drag-shute. The award should be looked at and brought in line with the realities. Unfortunately the customer market place does not allow for employer generosity on an individual basis so employers need to be obliged then enforced. This would still keep a level playing field. I was a CFI for one of the "International" schools more than a decade ago. I was still being paid less than half what I could get in the real world. So guess what? I left to.

[Piper Arrow]

It is a bit of a catch 22, you can put the wages up for instructors and have a new state of the art fleet of aircraft. Then no body can afford to learn to fly, unless you’re born with a golden spoon with a rich daddy or mummy. :)

[Wing Root]

.....really good school in Adelaide that has been running for over 25 years who just can't find qualified staff. The school owns brand new aircraft.....

If these new aircraft you speak of are your namesake then I think you'll find there are other issues as to why the school are having problems finding instructors.

[Hydrolix]

Do you have the name/s of the "very good" flying school/s in Adelaide. I think that they are few and far between. I'm not talking the college @BAe because you have to be a cadet to train there. The flying schools at Parafield leave a little to be desired, but I would appreciate some names. PS are these new aircraft Diamonds by any chance. I may have some more info about that particular school as to why they cannot find instructors and why they lost their CFI.....

[DIAMOND]

Hey Hydrolix and Wingroot, we would all like to hear your inuendo if its true. Give us names dates and facts (don't forget to include your own names) and let CASA and the legal fraternity sort out your problem.
As I know the facts to be, the CFI for the past several years lost his medical temporarily due to a medical problem, ... a triple Bi-pass heart operation. That really fits your style for slander under the guise of pretenting to know. Know anyone with a broken leg or terminal disease you'd like like to punch whilst they're in a wheel chair. Give us all a break.
The start comments of this thread are about a serious matter. There is a true shortage and the whole industry will suffer unless its addressed. Keep your own little girl "I don't like them cause they didn't treat my like the princess my daddy told me I was" comments to yourself. On the other hand if these schools have ever stolen your money, lied or been genuinely dishonest let us all know. If you know of any breaches of CASA regs, shout them out and use this forum. Take a professional view and enter this debate sensibly or go away and play Barbie Dolls.
I know the school and it is one of the few (thankfully not too few) schools that take the view that training is about goals and outcomes. Not based on being the trainees best mate and drinking beers on friday night. How many Chief Pilots and management at the airline level pander to the "Oh! But she's my best friend" value (or lack of values) system. How many look for the right attitude, skills and personal presence ?
Every successful person or business will have at their heart a bastard. It just matters what type of bastard. It could be a stupid bastard, a mean bastard, a silly old bastard or a caring old bastard. Its in the eye of the beholder. In the case of both the schools I mentioned at Parafield, I believe they were both run by good old bastards.
As far as Parafield goes your comments are an insult to the community and a great display of your ignorance. Statistically there have been more graduates from Parafield over the past 25 years go on to become airlne captains/FO's (per graduate head) than from any other area in Australia.
I apologise to all other readers of this forum for having to leave this important topic of discussion to answer the "always idiot knockers". It is these people that bring down the forum to the level of the gutter, whereby any serious discussion is hijacked. Something had to be said.
Lets not allow these "forum terrorist" to hijack our group. Please continue with your worthwhile comments on how we can address the real issue. I am looking for a good base of comment so that I can take up the problem at a political level.

[Natit]

Diamond,

Maybe sometimes it doesnt come down to CASA regs and rules, but treating customers and employees in a civil manner with maybe a little bit of respect. I talk from prior experience so don't think I'm just taking a 'stab in the dark' at the situation. Sure, the business is there to be run, but a little bit of kindness and respect does not go astray once in a while.

You say 'Not based on being the trainees best mate and drinking beers on friday night', and I quite agree, but in the end some people get sick of being treated like s*** and this may be a reason why there is a lack of interest in working for this school. Reputation is everything in this industry, I have learnt that very quickly.

And quite frankly, Parafield is in a sad state of affairs these days, there is no doubt about that. Let's just hope things pick up soon. Maybe GFS might open a school here. LOL I doubt it!

[Ozgrade3]

Does anyone know the current no of active Grade 1, Grade 2 and Grade3 Instructors in the country. I cant find any stats on any website from CASA or AOPA.

I cant believe there is a shortage of instructors anywhere, maybe there is a shortage of half decent ones, but Grade 2ME instructors like myself seem to be a dime a dozen.

Instructing is a rewarding career but most wont stay in it any longer than they have to because the money is not there. Flying max hrs at the rates of pay most schools seem to give out, you'd only earn 28 to 32 K. You can't get a home loan on that salary. Pay the instructor more, well thats fine in theory, and works in the big collages where the airlines pay for the cadets or the self sponsored cadets are bankrolled by wealthy parents/families etc.

In the real world, our bread and butter is the weekend warrior who wants to fly, and scrimps and saves every last dollar each week to go towards their weekly flying lesson. Any price increase, justified or not will simply contract the market even forther.

I feel the aircraft manufactures themselves, amongst a lot of other factors are to blame. The cost of purchasing, owning, maintaining and operation a GA aircraft is simply too high. The relaibility or life cycle cost of GA aircraft is pathetic, most aircraft lurch from one mechanical problem to another, the operator is allways forking out for repairs, maintenance. Just look at the average cost of a Hundred hourly on a Duchess or Warrior.

The car industry (and consumers) around the world would never tolerate this poor reliabilty in motor vehicles.

[JULIET WHISKEY]

Go into Finance OG3

[weasil]

:-)
Hi OG3.. nice reply.

You sound a lot like my last boss.

Everytime I read a thread about instructing I have to stop and think twice cause in the USA, CFI stands for certified flight instructor (meaning any old instructor).

Weasil.

PS: I will be down that way for the month of October! Can't wait.
I think I will go fly down the BK GA Lane and see how dangerous it really is. It's been a while.

[Hydrolix]

There are many good reasons why you would not want to work for or train at this particular flying school.

1.) The new aircraft are not yet certified and may not be for quite some time.

2.) I know of someone who was offered a free instructor rating there, sounds good? The contract was to work for the flying school for 3 years without pay. Is this a "really good" way of doing business? I think not.

3.) You only get paid for your airtime, yet you are working maximum duty hours all the time.

I could go on but I'm probably annoying you guys.

It is sad that there is a shortage of flying instructors, however, until certain schools change their attitudes to employing new instructors, things will not move forward.

By the way, Parafield has produced many good pilots, but around 90% of them all come from the one training organisation, the one that trains cadets....

[Hugh Jarse]

You only get paid for your airtime, yet you are working maximum duty hours all the time.

Why target one flying school? That's the way the majority of flying schools in Australia work (with very few exceptions).

And therein lies a major reason why flight instruction is perceived as a poor career path, with few prepared to commit to such poor working conditions.

[DIAMOND]

Well Hydrolix you've got it wrong again.
The Pilots general Aviation award is very clear. If your "so called friend" really had this offer he should have taken the rating with open arms. Having completed the rating he would have a free rating and the entire indutrial relations court behind him, never to have to repay. The award clearly states that if a company provides training and then employs the person they have trained within 6 months, then the company is deemed to have trained the person for their own benefit. Therfore no payment by the trainee is required and any monies spent can be reclaimed.

Where in hell do you come up with these hair brained comments. You are obviously listening to some pretty wild and totally inaccurate nonsense. Have you actually ever had a job in this industry. Remember the idea of this forum is for the exchange of ideas and comments between professionals. If you don't qualify please do the rest of us a favour and don't comment !

[greybeard]

The shortage solution as suggested by Diamond is not as easy as might be expected.

I am a qualified Instructor/Examiner on L-31s, 2000 Hrs flight, 1500 Level D Sim on that aircraft, currently a line Instructor A-310 converting F/Os to line operations.
Total hours 18,300, 41 yars in the game.

I held a "C" Instructors rating in times past, 1967, and ran my paperwork past the CASA people, pending my return to Australia in the not too distant future.

Grade 3 basic after a test I was told as I was "not experienced" in the type of operation as a GA Instructor.

Now no disrespect to the system but there are a lot of the Airline types recently placed on the street in the same position, well qualified in some areas, but not perhaps fitting the mould.

How can we get the people into the air and solve the dilemma?

The best advice I have is we cannot.

I admit to all, the skills of actually flying a C150 and as in recent times landings need a little work, but the system is difficult to adjust to anything not "ordinary".
If the boxes cannot be ticked, the position is not available.

I believe I can instruct as all my Students have been checked to line when so recommended, and some took an extra session or two when indicated by myself, so judgement seems to be up to speed.

Comments welcome, advice also, a job is not a problem it's getting the Paperwork in place.

Reading back, I have no problem doing the task of basic instruction, that's always been the fun part of all the jobs, but many may find other things to do when faced with the prospect of the grade 3 issues and requirements and could be more value in other positions.

This may apply only to larger Schools, the smaller ones will always battle on with the dedicated, underpaid and overworked Instructors.



:p

[Hydrolix]

I only know a little bit about the industry Diamond, I mean my experience is very limited and I don't have much expertise in the aviation industry. I only began flying 37 years ago in Adelaide progressing through to being an instructor G3,2,1 CFI, then various RPT jobs and RFDS. I have worked for a major international airline flying wide bodies for the last 26 years and still keep regular ties in small flying schools after owning and selling three or four, even building one from scratch. Don't patronise me Diamond. An old bloke like me may still have some things to teach people like you some things about the industry. As for my so called "friend", he did not accept this offer as he knows how poorly this place is run, even if he would work for free, there would be a million better places than this...

[Wing Root]

Diamond,
I notice you haven’t told us your name either... let's not get into that nonsense as it has been done to death in previous threads... these are anonymous forums and I'll keep it that way.

I have FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of the way the school operates, and it's certainly not "some pretty wild and totally inaccurate nonsense."

Things like instructors directed not to fraternise with students - Not allowed to be "Friends." And no coffee or biscuits allowed.
All well and good to be "professional" but that is just silliness.
When instructors are treated like children and when the experienced instructors are prevented from passing their knowledge on to the students do you really think that’s helping anyone? All the time the aim is to “Get your commercial in no more than 150 hours.” Students that are struggling financially are treated like second rate citizens. That is completely wrong.

The "I don't like them cause they didn't treat my like the princess my daddy told me I was" comment is completely off base here. I'm all for professional instructor guidance but when you are treated like a complete moron with the "We know best so shut up" routine all the time it doesn't make the learning environment all that fantastic. It's a flying school for crying out loud!... A place to learn to fly sure but also a place for chatting with mates and having some good experiences. A good talk to your experienced instructors in a relaxed way is a great way to learn how this industry works - and that includes talking after hours, as a FRIEND. Many a deal has been struck over a cold one outside the work environment. How many here can say that they've been offered or found a job through a bloke who saw you were a sensible fellow outside hours? I think the current CFI from DFS would have moved the school to that sort of environment had he had more say in the running of the show. It seems that won’t happen.

I suggest diamond you have a good chat to people that actually deal with the school. There is no need for the things they do in a REAL professional school.

[Hydrolix]

Finally, someone with half a brain.
Thankyou wingroot for some good comments.
People like you and I actually deal or have dealt with the school.
Thanks again.

[DIAMOND]

GreyBeard, your comments are a valued contribution, thankyou.
I have several good friends, 55+ age group who have experience along your own lines with the majors. One has actually made the transition, although they did allow him to start with a grade II. Perhaps the differencee was that he flew in Australia for the past many years whilst doing his C&T role.
I understand some of the reservations CASA has when looking at an experienced heavy driver coming back to C150 types, however please don't be too disillusioned. Even if you had to start as GIII, the fact that you already meet the time limits (due to your initial C class 1967) and hours of instructing minimums for a GII, 220 hrs AB plus 50 Nav. would mean that a GII would be just around the corner, possible a few weeks. Sure it would involve a flight test but that shouldn't be an issue for you.
Once you hold the GII, you only need to meet the minimum hours of instructing in your log book to be able to apply for a GI test. It sounds like you already have them. I haven't the regs in front of me but I think it is only 750 hrs teaching these days. Check the regs on CASA's website or private email me and I'll send you all the correct details. The point is with your background you are too valuable to all the Kids learning, not to be there. Sadly most flight instructors today, don't have the real world experience your colleagues did in '67. Don't misinterpret that comment. They try their butts off, but can only give the experience they have had.
Grey beard perhaps, but the experience that we can pass on to the hungry young is almost a reasponsibility. Apart from the few "silly ones", the vast majority of aspiring comercial pilots will take your memory throughout their successful careers. Not a bad legacy for an "old greybearded man". I hope you take up the challenge. I hope several of your colleagues do also. Its not all about money. Sometimes its just nice to give something back. Cheers!

[beer bong]

Diamond (chucky)

I have all the experience you are looking for but NEVER would I work for you.:p

[foxinsox]

re : DIAMOND -

"If your "so called friend" really had this offer
he should have taken the rating with open arms. Having completed the rating he would have a free rating
and the entire indutrial relations court behind him, never to have to repay. The award clearly states that
if a company provides training and then employs the person they have trained within 6 months, then the
company is deemed to have trained the person for their own benefit. Therfore no payment by the trainee is
required and any monies spent can be reclaimed. "



As true as this may be, I find it concerning that you think a trainee instructor would be able to work full-time, flying five days a week, getting paid for NONE of them, and still pay the bills (something we all have to do eventually). Do you think this genuinely appeals to people? I'd be curious to know how many folk have completed such an assignment.

And fair go on some other people posting in this forum. Please use a little resect when replying to such posts i.e. Hydrolix

[I Fly]

Greybeard, I'm a greybeard too. I think this whole licence / rating recognition business has less to do with ability but more to do with protection of the local industry. I have tried to get back into Europe. I have to start at the bottom again. Sure they count the hours, but the exams and tests - back to square one. We might not like it, but that's the way it is everywhere. I hope you proceed and enjoy it. Best of luck.

[DIAMOND]

Foxinsox you are missing the point. The pilots award is the law of the land. Its about time all pilots stopped allowing themselves to be abused.
From my memory you can take a claim for lack of payment or anything else you didn't get from the award, for up to seven years to the Industrial relations court. No need for expensive lawyers as you can represent yourself. If you are a member of AFAP they will represent you. The sooner pilots who feel they have been abused by an employee in the past, start taking up these claims the better. Stop bitching and do it. Its hard for the young ones so it needs to be the pilots whose careers are now going who take up the claims. That will sort out a few employers and stop this nonsense from being endemic in the industry. Perhaps it will help with the problem I initially wanted discussed on this forum ie the real shortage of senior flight instructors.
I don't know who you folks think I am, whowever I can assure you one thing I am is a believer in improving standards. The biggest problem we all have at the moment is that the lowest common denominator (ie the minimum standard laid down by CASA REG's) seems to be the only standard most training schools aspire to.
One last thing in reply to those posts who were going on about "being friends" with your Instructors. When I was brought up I was taught that friendship is one of the most valued things in life. To be a friend required integrity and honesty. You didn't have a friend to use them. You had a friend to share things with. Take a look at the arguments put by some of the contributors to this forum. They want to be friends for "contacts" and "information". The instructors purpose in offerring "friendship" is so that they can manipulate those learning into spending as much money with that instructor as possible. To me that doesn't sound much like friendship...more like mutual abuse. The problem is that most often it is an older instructor preying upon the needs of a younger person who is supposed to be his/her student. An instructor needs to mentor his students, not befriend them. Friendship is based on trust. Mentoring is based upon desire of the teacher to pass on more than the minimum and to be available when needed. Ask around and find out how many of these "friendships" end abruptly when the student no longer has money or has completed their training and are looking for work. A mentors job does not cease until the student has exceeded the need, ie usually surpassed his mentors own capabilities.
Just so that I don't get heaps of abuse on this last comment. I will also note that a true friendship can occur between any two people, therfore I acknowledge that it is possible for an instructor and student to become true friends. However a true friend would realise the damage that friendship would inflict upon the mentoring and teaching process and recommend that the friendship remain but that the student be passed on to another impartial instructor.

[Hugh Jarse]

Not all instructors use their students, Diamond.

I'm happy to say that even though I haven't taught for a few years now, some of my most valued friends are ex-studes.

Hell, I've even helped some of them get their first (or a subsequent) job in this industry.

One of them actually played a significant part in me getting my present job. (Thanks Ditchdog) ;)

I figured that if they are good enough to help me through lean times, then the least I can do is reciprocate.

Making new friends is one of the good things you get from instructing. Not every student will end up that way, but there's nothing wrong if they do.

Good Karma...

[Centaurus]

Once upon a time the CFI's job at an aero club or flying school was a pleasant mixture of both social and professional responsibilities. Of course most aspired to an airline career in the long term.

The game has changed. Nowadays a CFI is faced with awesome responsibilities with CASA demanding more and more paperwork, and woe betide the poor old CFI who allows minor paperwork infringements to occur. Compliance statements fill half the Operations Manual which is now a thousand dollar document.

Why would someone chase a CFI job when he/she could be earning the same money flying a Chieftain and enjoying the diversity of charter work regardless if the aircraft are getting old and creaky either way. Many of the older grade one instructors are married with domestic committments and few would risk moving interstate to a flying school job which depends so much on the personality type of the boss.

The responsibility and the on going CASA originated paper work is the killer as far as a CFI job is concerned. It is not fun any more.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Hear Hear :(

[skyfox]

Wow...

What a terrific thread... Stirred the pot here didnt we???

I have just read it from start to finish and every reply was well worth it. I am a new grade 3 out there looking for work now so i dont really know if I qualify a response in this forum so I will keep it brief, but from what I have learnt in this industry so far is definately do not make enemy's. Just from reading through the various forums here and there over the past few months it seems that a lot of people have picked up work from other ppruners. I started my flying in central queensland and finished in bankstown. I have had several instructors along the way, and each of them I can say became friends. But as soon as I, or they left, that was it, havent heard hear nor there. When, and I say again, when, I do manage to land that job, I will be trying my best to get to know my students as much as possible. The way I see it is this, if a student has a problem, be it at home or work, I would prefer they talk to me about it. Get it out, dont bring it into the aircraft. Now if it were me.... I wouldnt be talking to anyone about my problems if they werent a friend... Sound fair??? And who knows, they may help later on in return...

I just spent the last few days in Moorabbin, just having a look around at the work situation. I spoke to a number of CFI's and they all said if you were grade 1 or 2, I'd take you on now. Whats a junior supposed to do???:confused:

If there is anybody out there willing to take on a junior who is commited to going the distance... by that i mean G1 and META.... Please let me know. Willing to travel.

Just thought I'd throw that plug in.


SF:D :D

[Wing Root]

"The problem is that most often it is an older instructor preying upon the needs of a younger person who is supposed to be his/her student."

The experienced grade 1 instructor with X thousand hours has no need to act in this way. These people don't need to build their hours, they've hopefully done their share of charter / airline work and the reason they return to instructing is because they enjoy it and want to pass on their knowledge. They have no interest in screwing the student. I totally agree with you that experienced instructors who have had time out in the big wide world are invaluable for a student and I can say that friendships I've formed with instructors that have that experience certainly wasn't on the basis "that they can manipulate those learning into spending as much money with that instructor as possible." Quite the opposite actually. They were trying to give you the best possible training for the time you spent in the air so that your training dollar went that much further.
In my experience being friends for contacts and information isn't the primary motive for being friends with an instructor. These are the people that are teaching you in a one on one situation and for them to have any real interest in teaching you well you have to treat them with a bit of respect. There's no point in sanitising the whole relationship in the interests of keeping things professional. If you have a good rapport with an instructor contacts and information will follow. No rational person is going to help out a bloke who he thinks is just trying to use him for contacts and information. The aviation industry is a small one and the more contacts and information you can get the better - but this comes from being a civil, decent guy. After all the whole point of getting that commercial is so you can be employed and if the instructor thinks highly enough of you to pass your name on, all the better.
The learning process is enhanced by a good friendship between instructor and student as long as the instructor has enough presence of mind and the management to let this happen.

[Balthazar]

DIAMOND, your argument denies basic human nature and is totaly inapropriate.

I was starting to think you were a noble cause until you sprouted that nonsense about familialarity.

I used to take a case of beer down to the hanger every Friday afternoon and be "friendly" with all the engineers. I learnt as much as I did at Tech.

My Instructor debriefed me at the "high flyer' (the pub) and was friendly. I learnt as much as I did in the aeroplane.

I am a smidgeon over 30, have a grade 1 with multi engine, 9000 hours total, 5000 on 747, and am constantly reinforced how right my friends were. We have a CRM course in my company that says distance and non communication KILL's people.

Lighten up.

[Captain Muff Diver]

Diamond

If you are who I think you are? Was it not you,a married man having an affair with one of your students?

You are so full of it.

:mad:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Juuust a little off track.......

One problem faced by the fresh new grade 3 is the direct and in-direct supervision required. Not to mention the 'solo' restrictions.

Taking on a fresh grade 3 is a big responsibility for a school and of course the C.F.I.

In the USA, a new instructor can really do anything on their first day, first shift etc.

[DIAMOND]

Well nice comment from a guy who calls himself Captain MuffDriver. Just to set the record straight you've guessed wrong.
The other comments about freindship between instructors and students, I think were all worthwhile. There are many people who read this forum who don't make written comment. It has been a discussion in which my views have been put and I stand by them, however I respect the rights of others to their views or I wouldn't have posted this thread in the first place. For the 900+ people who have viewed this thread I'm sure many have had experiences similar to those expressed by all parties. If I have made the intelligent readers think, well thats great.
It may be interesting to note that I have had a very large number of replies by private posting. All bar one have been from new grade III's who are looking for a break. As promised in my reply's to these GIII's, I will hand their resume's on to the schools mentioned in this thread, but also to some other contacts I have.
The point is that after 948 viewings only one senior instructor has replied privately expressing interest in working with one of these companies. The reality is that they are not out there. It is a real worry. I think that Centaurus and Charlie foxtrot India may have touched on one of the real reasons. I also believe the uncertainty of the viability of most training schools is a contributor. Definately the pay rates are another.
Look at the cost of flying training in Australia. Yes we are all horrified that it costs so much, however the truth is Australia is about the cheapest place to learn in the world with the possible exeption of some smaller schools in the USA. When you consider the costs of operating aircraft, the costs of privatised airports and the enormous costs of the Beurocracy in Australia, it is certainly not a level playing field to compare USA with Australia. A more reasonable comparison of operating cost would be Europe to Australia. The cost of flying training in Europe is between 2 and 3 times that of Australia.
You can't have schools not charging the true costs in the long term. I believe the training Industry has already passed critical mass. Student levels are down all over Australia, Schools are closing down or changing ownership frequently. Most schools don't own their own aircraft but rather hope some owner who can't really afford to own an aircraft will lease it to them (below his true cost). With the aging GA fleet no operator truly can determine their costs. One day a typical trainer is costing $105 per hour to run, next day a AD comes out costing several thousand dollrs per aircraft. This is not hypothetical. AD's are a daily occurrence and its just "Russian Roulette" if your particular aircraft escapes the list today. It's no wonder that there is a shortage of experienced instructors still working in the industry. No security, and according to many respondants of this thread, No respect. Pay rates which reflect the state of the Industry (Fu**ed). The AFAP has a lot to answer for in allowing the pay system of "casuals". You can't really blame the kids. They are told by their "friendly" instructor that this is the way the Industry works. Well sadly they are correct, but not right.
I don't wish to join in with those who just give inuedo and point fingers at whoever they think they wish to throw mud at, however I will state that even the multinational owned school mentioned by others in this forum operates a school where all GIII and GII instructors are only paid casual, and at rates far below the award. Another large school mentioned by name by others in this thread, also expects its Instructors to work 8 hour + days for casual only rates. Again below the award. This is not to say these schools are wicked or managed by Bad and Horribles, rather to point out it has become the accepted norm and required for business survival.
CASA does not have any authority to tacle this problem. The Industrial Relations Court has, however it can only act upon complaint. The AFAP will only act upon complaint and only for an existing member at the time of the infingement. My advice to young players (and not so young) is to join some form of union if you don't have the strenght to make complaint yourself. Keep very good records of pay and correspondance with employers. Always have written agreements with your employer on the terms, conditions and rewards expected by both parties. Ensure your employer runs a business, not a club or hobby that runs on the smell of an oily rag. Try and find someone established in the Industry who will mentor you. Perhaps even post via this forum asking for some of the senior guys to offer to help you out. I know lots of my collegues who would be happy to help. Sadly there is quite a few very experienced guys left over from the Airline collapses of the past year, who have got time and may be willing to help.

[marshall]

And a real flight instructor is a grade 1, with CIR and 10,000 hours?

Please.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Natit]

Did you ever think that maybe the reason why only one senior instructor has replied is that most people in aviation already know of the reputation of the preivously mentioned CFI.

Having worked there, I really can say I don't blame them.

[ulm]

Hmmm

So there is a big shortage. OK, why do instructors need a CPL. Why shouldn't a PPL with a suitable amount of experience be allowed to do an instructor course and then teach the SE VFR syllabus as a Gd 2 or 3.

I actually can't think of a reason, but I bet the self interested will :D

Then there would be no shortage and the money would be there to pay the experienced Gd 1s what they deserve.

[borg]

I was an instructor for quite a few years as were many of my friends. There were two common factors which drove us out of the flight training industry.

1. Most of us wanted an airline career and we found that many airlines wouldn't consider us because we had no experience outside instructing.

2. Instructors were the working poor.
When I started instructing around 10 years ago I was paid $35 per flight hour and zip for briefings answering phones etc.
I have met guys in my travels who get paid between $15-$25 per flight hour and squat for the office duties.

It appears the cost of flying has increased while the pay has actually decreased.

Once again we see a part of the industry falling to pieces because of the failure of people to demand whats is legally entitled to them, or company's to pay it.

If there is a shortage of instructors, NO BLOODY WONDER.

[Captain Muff Diver]

ULM

Why shouldn't a PPL with a suitable amount of experience be allowed to do an instructor course and then teach the SE VFR syllabus as a Gd 2 or 3.

Are you kidding?

Most PPLs are dangerous as it is. Imagine being taught by them??

:confused:

Diamond we all know about it.

[bitter balance]

I suspect most people who bemoan the quality of the training industry are not prepared to pay the real cost to raise the bar. To afford good equipment and employ full time (award or above) instructors, a training organisation must charge out their services at a premium. Unfortunately a lot of customers make their decision based on $$$ only.

[Wheeler]

Not really surprising IF there is a shortage of G2 and 1's when G3's find it hard to get a job! How many of them just never get to be a G1?

One of the best G1's, (no, sorry the best) I know got to be a CFI but was so peed off by $35K pa, a dh employer and CASA, he eventually decided avaition was not quite such a good idea at all. Now doing quite nicely in IT - and who could blame him?

When G3's are having to pay for their rides and then when they do eventually get somewhere they get treated like that, is a shortage really surprising?

[poteroo]

Instructing Relativities

When I started flying in '63, an hours dual was about $8, I think, which was about 33% of average weekly earnings. Today it's about 20-25% of average weekly earnings.

This means that it's getting cheaper to fly, and that's probably why everything in the industry has become so tight. Costs have escalated, mostly due to the exchange rate to the USD, but flight school earnings just haven't gone the same way.

And why are there less students, despite relatively lower flying training costs? It's probably due to there being far more exciting ways to an adrenalin rush...parachuting,bungeeing,surfing,waterskiing,mountain biking and so on. Competing priorities.

I'm not surprised that there are no Gr 1's about - airlines and charter are better paid, and that's that. If the experience levels for Gr 1's were where they used to be,(2000 hrs), there would be fewer of them again. It seems the bar was lowered some years back, and maybe that's another part of the problem of creating 'real' or experienced instructors.

Perhaps more ex airline instructors would re-enter the industry if they could work part time, and get at least the award rate for their efforts. In fact, at the right flight school, they could probably negotiate higher numbers, on the basis that their presence attracted students wanting 'experienced' tuition.

Please don't abuse me for suggesting part timers - if there's a shortage, then there's no argument against it.

cheers,

[RENURPP]

Instructing Job for

Grade 1 Multi Engine Instructor 40yrs old
12,000 total
5,300 instructing
Command Multi Engine Instrument rating
Aerobatic training
Formation
ex CFI
ex ATO up to CIR M/E, CPL

I am currently flying RPT Jets within Aus, prefer to work no more than 4 days week, currently earning in excess of $100k + and would like similar remuneration.

Location- prefer mid north coast of NSW or Sunshine coast in QLD.

Is there such a job? I wish there was, maybe when I retire from my current position I would be happy with fewer hours for lesser pay but I have a life style at the moment and would need those conditions to retain that life style and set myself up for a happy retirement.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Renurpp;

No problem, just apply to the schools that charge their instructors out at $200 hour.

Add a new C172 plus a modest 10% margin and you can charge out dual in a new C172 for $400 per hour!.

Ulm;

So your PPL Gr3 is going to work for nix then??

A 'suitably qualified' PPL already has enough hours to achieve a CPL in a short period of time.

I can not think of a reason why a PPL who wants to instruct, shouldn't get a CPL. I bet the self interested PPLs will :D

[Centaurus]

Friend of mine highly experienced ex RAAF, ex airline, ex CASA Examiner and now retired, but dead keen to instruct in GA.
But how do you explain to him that to get in on the fun he must "hang around the telephone" at the local flying school and try and beat a hord of grade 3's for the next TIF?

That is one compelling reason why experienced airline pilots who have had extensive instructing backgrounds and who are happy to pass on their wisdom to GA students, are turned off from offering their services at flying schools.

[tealady]

A Grade 3 is a Grade 3 is a Grade 3, if they are not, then why can't a newly recruited FO for an Airline who has stacks of RPT in jets (eg B737 COMMAND time) just jump the queue to Capt?
It takes time to train new staff, no matter what their qualifications and experience are. We've had some that progress quite quickly and others that don't.

[RENURPP]

R F & G,

Tongue in cheak!

My point is, there are instructors out there. I would love to continue instructing and maybe when I am able to retire, financially, I will go back to it.

At the moment it would be a-kin to taking a job in a monestry life style wise.

To all those that are instructing by choice, not simply to gain hours, it will probably be some of the best and most satisfying flying you do, especially as you become more flexible in what you teach, e.g. from GFPT - CPL - CIR and aerobatics, formation, low flying etc.

The more money you earn the more you tend to commit your self and it is very hard to go back. I don't feel like I am doing more or enjoying myself more than I used to as an instructor BUT I could not afford to go back on current instructor wages.