Icus times availability

[jazzy]

hi everyone i was wondering if there was anyone out there who would be willing to give me some twin icus time so that i could further my career. Cause it's the old catch of there's work out there but you've got to meet the insurance requirement thing.
Which i' m not against, but it's just one of those things that has to be done. Prefarably around Brsiabane, Coolangatta but really anywhere would do. Thanks in advance my fellow pilots.:) :)

[grrowler]

Mate, turn it up!

There is no "old catch" or "things that has to be done", at least not anything like you described it. If that was the case no one would have more than 200 hours! There are plenty of jobs around (no they aren't anywhere near Cooly or Brisbane!) for guys and girls to get started, with progression into twins. I would be happy to point you in the right direction (the direction is north and west - and you may not be able to see the surf :eek: )

And unless you have someone who has promised you a twin job, you really aren't furthering your career by getting ICUS time. It's a dodgy way for logging hours twice (1 hour Command by PIC, 1 hour ICUS by PICUS - I'm prepared to accept other views on that) without really doing the flying. Operators don't like ICUS, Qantas don't even count it towards your command time.

You're better off spending your money on a car, swag and fuel, and heading to where the jobs are.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Go West young 'un.

Forget ICUS - do the hard yards and cut the umbilical.

There is not really an easy way around it.

Find a single engine job, work hard, build time, get noticed.


Good Luck & fly safe.

[Hugh Jarse]

Yep, just took a look at our FAM. No recognition for ICUS of any sort with initial recruits.

Piston twin ICUS means nothing these days. I mean, how do you (or why would you need to) fly a piston twin ICUS?

Save your money Jazzy and put it to better use. Take the advice of some of the others on this thread and get out there.

[jazzy]

thanks for all your help guys and just as a note i have been promised a twin turbine job as long as i can get 300-500hrs multi-time up, so that's the main reason i was looking to do icus. But if you guys can recommend any companies out west or up north i'd be more than happy to start chasing them. Thanks again.

[TwinNDB]

Dare I suggest that they may have meant 350 - 500 multi COMMAND hours. I certainly dont think you'd ever want that much PAICUS time in your book. It can be a handy thing to get your 10hrs up on type and/or the keep your IR current but appart from that 350 - 500 hrs ICUS????

Twin

[Stiff Under Carriage]

I would agree with TwinNDB here, they probably mean PIC, but anyhow good luck.

Grrowler, Qantas does not except ICUS hey, I have yet to hear that. I am aware of one cadet on the 400's that logs her time as co-pilot when in 2nd Off stage, and logs time as ICUS when progression is made to first Off in order to met the hour requirements, whatever they are. Correct me if I am wrong here please, but having posed the question "how do you log your time?" that was her response.

I therefore do not understand why Qantas would not accept ICUS.

Having said all that, I agree that heaps is obviously not desired, but there are useful reasons for doing ICUS in pistons twins so long as there is a good reason and it is done legitimately. For example, insurance req'mts, company req'mts, route checks, CAO req'mts (10hrs PIC/ICUS for charter) etc.

I myself only have 3.3hrs ICUS, but I can see a purpose for it as I said, if it is legit.

Cheers, SU/C

[marshall]

I therefore do not understand why Qantas would not accept ICUS.

Because it's ICUS!!! :D :D :D

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Fair enough, Marshall but,

Where does it say that they do not accept it?

[puff]

From the QF website.......


500 hours in command of fixed wing aircraft (excluding ICUS), or

250 hours in command of fixed wing aircraft (of which up to 100 hours may be ICUS) and 1000 hours First Officer time on turbine RPT operations, or


150 hours in command of fixed wing aircraft (excluding ICUS) and 1500 hours First Officer time on turbine RPT operations, or

250 hours in command of fixed wing aircraft (of which up to 100 hours may be ICUS) and 500 hours in command of rotary wing aircraft.

[Tempo]

Jazzy,

I could recommend quite a few companies up north that have lots of twins (and turbines!). The only thing is, you will have to start at the very bottom of the pecking order (single engine VFR) and work your way up to twins. If your still interested let me know and I will email you.

[grrowler]

Yeah, sorry I was just going from memory when I commented on Qantas. ICUS is not going to help your average GA Joe Bloggs meet the 500 command (excluding ICUS).
Even so, I wouldn't think Qantas would regard ICUS very highly, which is reflected in their min. reqs kindly listed by puff. The only benefit for them would be to get their cadets progressing through the ranks.

SUC, is the logging of ICUS by SO's the norm? Do you get a command endorsement (required to log ICUS) when you start with Qantas, or only later on?

Hey jazzy, I've got a great idea - I'll swap my piston job for your turbine job for 6 months and you'll get your 350 multi command, then I'll let you have the job back...I promise :D

[tyga78]

Grrowler,
Good point, Gotta have a command endorsement to log ICUS, not sure how QF S/O's could possibly be logging ICUS, unless it's something about having a high capacity AOC, although S/O's logging ICUS sounds pretty dodgy. SUC, I think this female S/O should read the regs because none of the QF S/O's I know can get away with it. Unless she knows something they don't!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

I think the point 'she' was making was ICUS logged by F/Os not S/Os...still without a command endorsement?

What is so confusing about this issue for young pilots these days?

If you are being trained for command (and therfore have a command endorsement) by a training captain you log ICUS....be it 10 hours for a C441 or 150 hours for a B737!

If you are in the RHS with a co-pilot endorsement you log F/O time!

Simple really:rolleyes:

I know under JAR OPS people log P1/P2...presumably the youngster in the RHS has a command endorsement, but in any effect this is not the system in place in Oz....live with it:mad:

No matter how much you want to believe that bodgy ICUS is 'the same thing' as being in command it is NOT!!

Even real ICUS is more closely akin to Dual than real command!

I shudder to think what will go on when/if CASA acts in it's threat to consign 2nd class endorsements to the history books...a bunch of young copilots logging each sector they are PF as 'command':eek:

Sheer madness!!

Chuck.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

I am aware of one cadet on the 400's that logs her time as co-pilot when in 2nd Off stage, and logs time as ICUS when progression is made to first Off in order to met the hour requirements, whatever they are.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't I say that whilst she is a Second Officer she logs co-pilot time.
ogs her time as co-pilot when in 2nd Off stage
She then logs ICUS when she becomes a First Officer.
logs time as ICUS when progression is made to first Off
Forgive me if it is the way I wrote it, I didn't really read it two many times after typing it. Sorry guys.

Puff, thanks for the correction, having re-checked it you are right, its been a long time since I looked at that.

You see I too am in the same position as Jazzy, desperately looking for twin work but still unable to find any, willing to do whatever that is required in order to achieve the next step. I can just push on and keep at it.

Cheers all, SU/C

[tyga78]

SUC, sorry about the S/O thing however, unless doing command training, anytime spent in the right hand seat (and don't get pedantic about instructors etc, you all know what I'm talking about), holding a command endorsement or other wise is logged as F.O. time, otherwise I've just clocked up a heap of ICUS!!!!:D
If you want to get twin hours, head to the sticks. Might have to start from the bottom but you'll earn some respect doing it, have a ball and be well prepared for whatever may lie ahead. Might even end up with some great stories too!!!

[Dehavillanddriver]

It is an interesting question really.

There are a heap of QANTAS 74 and 76 Captains running around that had no real command experience when they got their initial jet commands - HEAPS of jet time, many years in the company - but very little command time.

Before you all jump down my throat and tell me that is rubbish..

How does a QF cadet get the experience to get a command - when ALL bar a couple of hundred hours is time in a QF aeroplane?

[TurboOtter]

Have things changed with ICUS
Last time I read the CARs etc, it said something along the lines that to be able to log ICUS, you have to be in a two crew airplane, you have to rated etc...
short of it is that ICUS is set up for two crew aircraft to give the FO the ability to gain command time.
ICUS is command time but you CANNOT get it flying in a 310 or something like that.
I have heard people gaining ICUS in a C206 even.
Come on people
read the rules!!

[Yakka]

turbo

Have you read the regs ? do you know what ICUS stands for

are you reffering to these regs

In Command Under Supervision
(ICUS) The conditions for logging of ICUS are at CAR 5.40 and include the following:
the pilot flying ICUS must hold either a CPL or an ATPL;
the pilot flying ICUS must make all decisions relevant to the safe operation of the aircraft;
the pilot must hold a command aircraft endorsement for that type;
the pilot must hold a command instrument rating if the flight is conducted under the IFR;
the operator must permit the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision;
the pilot in command of the aircraft must be appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.




If you are you must have a different interpretation than
to me and CASA

There is nothing wrong with ICUS if it is done for legitimate purposes ( yes even in a 206 )

There's the regs Come on Turbo read them

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Thankyou Yakka,

For a legitimate purpose there is nothing wrong with it. If it is done correctly.

As for how Q cadets get command time? I have HEARD, I do not know, but they are sometimes given a job found by Q for the purpose of building command time for a short time. Don't jump down my throat, its just what I have heard.

SU/C

[TurboOtter]

Hey there Yakka

Read the Regs
Not the note in your log book. Do you know CAR 5.40?
Take a good look a condition (d)
you must be co-pilot
Please tell me how you can be co-pilot of a 206???
This is one reg that everyone (including the lovely guys at CASA) thinks they know but have never actually read the REAL regs.

5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision
(1) A person must not fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command undersupervision unless:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
or
(i) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a
commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight
crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or
grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out
that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; and

(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and

(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose
by the operator of the aircraft

[grrowler]

TurboOtter,

The regs also say "co-pilot means a pilot serving in any piloting capacity other than the PIC".

As long as the aircraft has fully functioning dual controls, any aircraft can be used to conduct ICUS as long as the other conditions that you listed are met.

I know of at least one company that operates under a contract using two crew in Barons and Chieftains, and one guy/ girl logs co-pilot (poor ******s :D )

[Yakka]

Turbo,
When i said do you know what ICUS stands for, I should have said, "do you know what ICUS means ?"

No

well here it is

In Command Under Supervision (ICUS)

Includes all flight time when assigned as co-pilot acting in command under supervision as defined above:ICUS may be logged as follows:
a) in log books with single and multi-engine ICUS columns, the flight time is logged accordingly and is included in the Grand Total Hours;
b) if the log book does not have an ICUS column then ICUS may be logged in the Pilot in Command column as long as it is clearly identified as ICUS and the pilot in command is also identified;
c) alternatively, another unused column may be used to log ICUS.

If im wrong show me!:D

[Airframe Driver]

Have to agree with Turbo on all this.

You can't be a "co-pilot" on a PA31 or a C206 because there is no such endorsement.

However, you can get ICUS on either of these if, say, you have just joined the company and you are being route checked, so theoretically you can't be the sole capt, but under supervision of a company check capt.

[slice]

Airframe - you just have to be endorsed. Just because there is no specific co-pilot endorsement for that type of AC does not mean that you cannot act as a co-pilot on that AC. The operator assigns you to act as co-pilot (usually when a customer requests two crew for example or RPT w/ no functioning autopilot). I have eighty or so hours of this myself in Light twins (none logged as ICUS though). BHP refer to it as a safety pilot I think.

Yeah sure, most people see it as bullsh|t time but if you are low time it helps to get proficient at radio, flight planing, trimsheets, briefs, walkarounds etc etc.

[TurboOtter]

Hey Yakka,
Don't mean to be rudee but you keep quoting the pages out of the log book.
that's all great but READ the CAr's as I have quoted before.

It even stated what ICUS is (WOW!!!) :eek:

Then it states the terms of how ICUS can be conducted (now read this before even getting the log book out) and rememeber ALL of the terms have to be forefilled.

I have fought with several CASA people and Chief Pirates etc bout this and still no one can show me how it can be done on the type of aircraft you are talking about.

Everyone MUST remember that the CAR's and designed primarily for the big boys, not for us useless swine in G.A.:confused:

Keep up the good work, remember, read ALL the words.
:D

AS to Airframe Driver,
I think you know what I am talking about, but as you said

"However, you can get ICUS on either of these if, say, you have just joined the company and you are being route checked, so theoretically you can't be the sole capt, but under supervision of a company check capt"

This is fine, but if you stand back and look at it, if you are in the left hand seat, YOU and only you are the pilot in command, to make the guys who insurancee the bucket of bolts you are flying happy, you need to have someone who they want to call in command.:cool:

At the beggining of ALL flights it MUST be estblished who is in command and that is what the log book should state. If you are not in command but in the left seat, then it is dual,full stop.

All of this is of course if the requirements of the CAR's cannot be met, if they can then start filling out the ICUS column and be a happy person:D

Have fun!!