Financial assistance for AN staff.

[Kaptin M]

With many of you ex-Ansett people finding yourselves in the same boat as many of us were 13 years earlier, I was wondering whether a fund had been organised by the "HAVES" to support the "HAVE NOTS"?

In our case those (pilots) who obtained employment - and some who had not, but could afford to - made contributions to a fund that allowed those in dire financial hardship to receive a no interest, long term loan. The idea being that the money (capital only) would be paid back when the recipient finally found re-employment AND was able to afford it.

Certainly 12 months after termination with only minimal payouts of accrued benefits, any savings one MIGHT have had would now be showing signs of severe depletion.

Personally I find the Victorian ASU president - Martin Foley - EXTREMELY insensitive with his remark wrt Ansett staff, "Life`s tough but we`re getting on with it".
The fact is, Mr Foley (perhaps Folly might be more appropriate) SEVERAL have NOT got on with life, as per Go Girl`s post yesterday!

[digi2]

CPT M
A bit of a pleasant change in attitude towards this whole affair, I trust it's not a wind up. Certainly a Good idea for those affected to consider.

[Al E. Vator]

Yes that's a fine idea Kaptin.

This is a great industry and we are all fortunate to be part of it. As with a precedent set some years earlier (I believe after the Pilot dispute and the collapses of Compass 1 and 11?) what could be invisaged would be something like this:

Senior Pilots and well-paid higher level management staff would contribute to a fund to assist in the support of their colleagues.
With help from the ACTU you may find that these contributions could end up being tax-deductible (tax-experts comments here please).

Those senior Captains who have found work elsewhere (such as those with SQ) contribute say 10% of their salaries to the fund to assist junior pilots unable to get back on their feet.

Many of these Captains have 20 or more years with AN and now is the time to look after the less fortunate. I reckon it's a crying shame the way the industry is panning out at present and I'm sure a formalised charitable assistance scheme will be met with great support from the senior pilots. Unlike a broader AN scheme, this would be a sceme organised purely by Senior AN pilots for junior AN pilots.

This topic is above the sniping found on other threads, so please no opportunistic posts:

Pole Vaulter how about yo start it off? I understand you were with AN for a long time. How about you kick off procedings with an effort to say establish the trust fund and contribute 10% of salary. We all spend time on PPRUNE which may be interesting but is all too frequently non-constructive.

Here is a chance for say Pole Vaulter to use time constructively and simultaneously assist those from the AN family who are far less fortunate. If it prevents one more post such as Go-Girls, then it will have been worth it.

I have been involved in a similar project and found it rewarding not only for the recipitients but also the organisers and the donors.

Good luck.

[Gnadenburg]

I thought you would appreciate the different culture gentleman.

Can`t speak for the seniors,maybe dog eat dog there,but the junior pilots are finding the mateship bonds useful.

Good networking and good support with good standards and attitudes with new employers.

Paving the way for their mates to follow.

I am critical of some senior pilots but as a positive post will let lie.

[Buster Hyman]

Perhaps if we had a system whereby it's was a criminal act to tamper with employee funds, and super, then there would be no need of such a scheme. It's happened before & it'll happen again.:(

[min]

At the risk of taking this way off topic, but why shouldn't the father have the right to request that his child not be taken away from him??? The childs self esteem and welfare takes precedence in this situation, and it is very much in the child's best interest that he have both parents close by.

M.

[Al E. Vator]

All good posts and food for thought, anyhow back on track.......

Pole Vaulter - how about it?

No response from you yet, but (and I admit to only guessing here, you were a relatively senior Captain on say $220,000 to $280,000 per year?????????).

So how about you kick things off with a $22,000 donation to the fund to assist junior out-of-work AN pilot-family members.

Indeed it would not be the $ that would be so important as the specific act of setting-up the trust fund to help the young guys so disadvantaged at such a crap time in aviation history in this country.

I know such an amount is a bit of an ask at these times but 10% really isn't that much and about the same as Mr. Howard takes in GST to look after complete strangers! As anybody involved in aviation for a long time knows, it really IS a family affair and we should look after family. I wasn't part of your AN family but I was part of another airline and I know all too well what it's like to be out on the street, family in tow with no income and dubious future.

Hope to hear from you soon Pole Vaulter and good luck, it is a particularly worthy cause and at least something positive in the middle of all this mess. Hope you will soon take charge and look after those junior pilots who looked up to you for so many years.

All the best.........Al.

[Kaptin M]

If only 10% of the 16,000 previous AN employees have again obtained an income then just a couple of hundred dollars each would get a fund well on the road, and MAY make the difference of ANOTHER family losing their Father or Mother. Of course financial problems aren't the only factor in suicides, but in your circumstances they aggravate the problem.

The fund set up by the pilots - for the pilots - during our dispute, was able to assist quite a few guys whose family homes were under threat of repossession, thanks to the generosity of the other pilots - many re-emloyed outside Australia, but also others who were generous and humane enough to realise that their contribution would "make a difference".

There still appears to be that bond between the Ansett folk that welds you together as a "family", and NOW - more than EVER before - some family members should be pitching in to help the others.
Parties are fine, and as cabin secure said on the "Ansett reunion" thread. "Let's have a Christmas Party" - however Xmas can be a very depressing time for those without work and no excess to spend on the usual trappings.
But what BETTER present could the EMPLOYED ex-Ansett staff give to their "poor relatives", than a fund that might save their home?
Or better yet, one of their own?

[Gnadenburg]

Kapt M

You are either in jest or an idealist.

The resources of APA were wasted on senior pilots feuding over seniority issues for many years.An example,who gets the BNE 767 Command?A fellow with no Ansett experience but signed the dotted line a week before a returnee who had 20years of previous AN experience.

It was look out for ones interests.

As far as financially stricken pilots go it was probably not to the same extent as 89.AN pilots were highly paid in a bull market(many pilot`s equity in their own home equivalent to a small lotto win) and SEESA payments in the hand amounted to near 50K for most junior F/Os.

I alluded to a different culture earlier,surely you have heard snippets yourselves as to the differences.

[Al E. Vator]

Come on Pole Vaulter why aren't you responding to this post?

I see you're online even as this is typed.

You're very vocal on other threads but nothing here.

I don't wish to share the cynicism of certain other posters and look forward to your financial and technical input into a fund assisting those pilots genuinely in need of help.

Take care.........Al.

[Torres]

And I see the Government is now saying the Ansett Ticket Tax is simply repayment of a previous "loan" to the Ansett Liquidators. Generously, Government is saying that if they had not made the previous loan, nothing would have been paid to staff.

No further Ticket Tax or Government funds will be made available to the Liquidators. :(

Cabin Secure. I understand exactly where you are coming from. I didn't think Government could have managed anything worse than they manage aviation legislation and regulation - but in Family Law and it's legislation, Government seems to have excelled! And Min, I have no idea on Cabin Secure's circumstances, but judging an issue without knowing full details is dangerous stuff.

Back to the thread.

[Whiskery]

The resources of APA were wasted on senior pilots feuding over seniority issues for many years.An example,who gets the BNE 767 Command?

The donation of money from the ex AN staff that "have" to the staff that "haven't" has got sweet FA to do with APA.
We are talking about charity and goodwill towards the less fortunate in the Ansett "family".

Please don't confuse what you perceived as rorting the system by "senior pilots" (should that read "Heroes!?") with what the good Kapitan M has suggested.

[Pole Vaulter]

Al E. Vator,

The size of the problem re financial hardship and personal hardship after the AN collapse are at a level far greater than the pilots experienced in 89. Ansett when it collapsed was more than pilots, it was approx 16000 people of which some 700 were pilots.

(1) 89 was restricted to pilots who resigned and should in some way expected, if things did not go their way would be out of a job.
(We don't want a discussion on resigning just the differences)

(2) A large percentage of ground staff had a long carreer with AN as they were proud to be long time employees but try getting a job in your 50's when you past experience is 25 or so years with an airline.

(3) Except for the pilot group (Who had their own Super fund)most ground staff received 8 weeks redundancy when they should have received up to 104 weeks pay and some of their Super. In 89 all resigning pilots received their full entitlements.

The pilot group do not expect a fund of their own as you suggest I start but all groups of staff are all offering support both financial and in many other ways to groups in both flight crew, cabin crew and ground staff. I was not in fact employed by AN at the time of the demise and am no longer in the airline industry but it has not reduced my involvement in helping out a range of people ,both aircrew and ground staff in whatever way I can. Most ground staff are in far greater need of help on this occasion for reasons already given.

The sadness we read about on another thread has been repeated numerous times in other staff areas but you are most likely only aware of the Aircrew incidences.

We all need to be available to whoever calls to help whether it be in dollars or support or just someone to talk to as there are many out there suffering in many ways.

[Gnadenburg]

Hi Whiskerey,

Your previous admission as a Collingwood supporter makes it hard to imagine you with teeth.

But I do apologise for upsetting yourself and M.

ALE Vatour made the senior pilots support junior pilots reference.I confused this as M`s.

Reference the social tripwire ,isn`t that what the AN tax was for?

[Kaptin M]

The concept of an "Ansett Family Fund" to my thinking, was NEVER meant to be one for only pilots, and I don't think that Al E. V ever alluded to that P.V..
I think he may have been saying that as pilots were at the "top of the employee food chain", their 10% (for example) - still being only 10% - would go a l o n g way further than someone else further down the salary tree.

But the PRIMARY focus should be to get this thing off the ground.

You have all just had a 1 year reunion. Names, memories and sentiments are fresh.
Set up a fund! Help each other to save another.

Even tho' my career with Ansett ceased back "then", as a sign of good faith, and memories of happier times, I'm willing to throw in a donation once you get a fund up and running.

[Whiskery]

Gnadenberg, you didn't upset me. I was merely pointing you in the right direction.

By the way, now that you have brought up the subject of Collingwood - that was a very pleasant jaunt over to Adelaide two weeks ago. I believe you suggested we may be beaten by 9 goals was it?

Aaahhh, Gnadenberg, yee of lttle faith. The mighty Magpie army was out in force and we celebrated long and hard into the wee small hours of the following morning. What is your prediction for this week?
I reckon the mighty Pies by 4 goals!

Keep the {Magpie} faith:]

[Gnadenburg]

Licuria on Mcleod.

Malthouse`s forward set up with one surprise:Fraser will play the goal square with Tarrant leading from that position to the flanks,Rocca playing centre half forward true,Didak and Davis in support.The rabbit out of the bag will be Buckley at full forward!

Pies by 15pts.

GO VICTORIA,GO PIES.

Adelaide supporters your a disgrace.You try to ruin this great Victorian game with your European Soccer Hooligan antics.

I will be happy to contribute my football winnings to an Ansett Fund.

[waterops]

mate, to use the plight of AN staff as a tool to attempt to have a go at pole vaulter shows very bad character on your part. It's fairly obvious you are less interested in a fund actually being set up than you are in trying to place pole vaulter in an embarrassing position, regarding him starting a "fund" off with his own cash.

If you're so keen, why don't YOU start the fund? Don't bother answering that rhetorical question, I don't think I want to hear your cr@p.

[gaunty]

One of the issues that has been niggling me and that seems to have been completely overwhelmed by the AN staff publicity is the plight of the staff and owners (often the same people) of the thousands of mostly "ma and pa kettle" companies which because they are unsecured got done over to the tune of around $2 billion.
Aren't these people also part of the much vaunted AN family.

To put that into context thats $2,000,000,000. or around 32,000 years of an average non AN persons income. OK.

So a bit of the $2 billion may have been big kids money but that is not the point.
The big kids money is usually a consolidation of lots of little kids money, so the knock on effect is the same. The money has gone.

Have the AN staff seriously contemplated just how much longer they remained employed as a result of the "injection" of that $2billion of funds by the AN creditors, and the gaurantee of their even earlier "retirement" had it not been avavilable and how much their own incomes may have been "subsidised" therefrom?

Those who haven't should do this before they become too overwhelmed with the exposition of sympathy for their "rights" to be paid and contemplate the consequences to all of the other members of their "unsecured family" who supported them.

I am am sure there are many many AN staff who understand and would agree with what I say, but that is not the message that I am hearing as a "non combatant."

Those who do, should make their voice heard by those who would use their plight for political and other petty gain.

[Gnadenburg]

gaunty

My exposure to creditors as follows.

Mate a NAB Exec who reviewed the AN file months before collapse and said all is well.Still on his six figure salary.

Tatachilla Winery.Recoverd much of it`s stock and resold at cellar door.Lost stock value as good as advertising as any-their words.

So who are these mum and dad burnt investors Gaunty?

And I am sure thousands of AN people can empathise with their plight, but don`t ask them to sacrifice their creditor priority.

Since your beloved VB has filled the void, for the good of Australian aviation(your words), why not use your expertise to steer VBs business their way.

Biggest corporate collapse in Australian history, almost a half percent GDP and probably 70,000 jobs lost.

You think exAN staff don`t realise the all round losses and tragedy.

A pointless post with the usual Anti-Ansett undertones and sentiments from Gaunty.

[gaunty]

Gnadenburg

I'm not going tit for tat with you so just a short note here.

I do not have anything to do with anyone or anything at my so called "beloved" VB, in the fact the only person that I sorta know, a cuppla beers once a while ago, who works there is sprucegoose, nice chap too.

In fact never travelled on em, mrs gaunty and the prince and princesses gaunty yup but me no, just never had the need or opportunity, QF by default for no other reason but the FF scheme. Doesn't mean I wouldn't though.

Anti AN staff nah, the management d!ckheads including the gormless adminstrators who ran it off the rails absobloodylutely yes. If you had followed my posts during the Tesna fiasco you would understand from whence I come.

So tell me that the $2,000,000,000 of unsecured creditors in the administrators report are the subject of my imagination and that the mum and dad businesses that either went to the wall or are doing it real hard don't exist.

And show me where these people are getting any sympathy or help, oh and before you start going on about the big guys being able to handle it, go check to see where your super fund administrator has your money invested.

It would be a pity if your personal antipathy towards me clouded you personal judgement, believe me I am not worth it.

Oh and I nearly forgot you obviously missed the bit at the end in your rush to give me a good kicking.:D
I am sure there are many many AN staff who understand and would agree with what I say, but that is not the message that I am hearing as a "non combatant."

Those who do, should make their voice heard by those who would use their plight for political and other petty gain.

[Sir Shiraz]

I'm not going tit for tat with you so just a short note here

Yes Gaunty......nice and short

;)

[gaunty]

:p:) :cool:

[AnsettStar]

If someone dropped 10 grand in my lap tomorrow, I know a few ex-AN pilots who would be getting a nice surprise cheque in the mail... :D

(I'd send 'em all one if I could, cabin staff too, but there's about three or four I would really love to thank for the kindness they showed me when I flew with Ansett)

And I think why the hell can't those pollies in Canberra get off their butts and do something about it instead of saying "They're getting on with it". Easy for someone to say who earns half a mil per year!!!! :D

poli- many
tics - bloodsucking leeches pretty apt, eh?

[Gnadenburg]

gaunty

This was a post about the fortunate helping the unfortunate exAN.

Now re-read your garbage in print and tell me you
do not detect undertones or sentiments inappropriate to the post or anti-AN.

No antipathy either.

Just found your isolationist policy very British and one dimensional in regard our foreign affairs.

A little bit of defence and economic co-operation with Singapore paid dividends in the last few weeks wouldn`t you think?Considering our interests targeted on their soil.

Allies at war?

[gaunty]

Whatever :rolleyes:

[Gnadenburg]

One word rebuttle from Gaunty.

Something achieved.

True Colours-I used two.

[Kaptin M]

While Gaunty and Gardenbug continue flagellating each other - and undeniably G raises a good point - may I suggest a return to the CORE issue?
The idea of setting up a fund for the employees DIRECTLY employed by Ansett - a fund that is financed by the "now-employeds", to assist those "non-employeds" who are severing severe/intolerable financial hardship, the qualifiers for which would need to be determined by a "panel".

I find it "remarkable" that there are so many ex-AN'ers who frequent the halls of PPRuNe but who have been amazingly ABSENT from placing any contributions for or against this topic!

There have been numerous posts about how hard some AN employees are doing it, some about a few who have ended it all (for themselves, but not their families), and others indicating their success in finding re-employment.

Quite frankly, one would have to assume that ALL of those ex-AN'ers posting here could afford a (small) contribution towards the welfare of those who are doing it hard - so hard that they can't afford the couple of dollars to buy some internet time!

What do they say - "money talks & bull@#&t walks".

[Lead Balloon]

The difference is that no-one understood your rebuttal or the last Singapore/British spin on your argument Gnadenburg.

Meethinks Gaunty's point could have been related to the fact that employees aren't the only unsecured creditor and that small companies supplying Ansett probably risked more (and lost more) than the average weekly wage earner risked.

[Gnadenburg]

Lead

Dragging up another thread.Was devastated to have Gaunty feel antipathy so just wanted to reinforce our disagreement only.

Small companies was not the issue.It was small mum and dad suppliers to Ansett.How many and how much did they lose?

A nice tangent but inappropriate considering the nature of this thread.Start a new topic.

I feel the government provided the social tripwire by protecting the basic entitlements.

Kapt M

Lack of AN posters may have a bit to do with 89ers hunting in packs.

Bit of tall poppy too.A couple of Virgin F/Os under the guise of 89ers labelling late nineties AN pilots scabs.Lack of rebuttle from the likes of yourself makes PPrune distasteful for some.

I flew with many F/As who experienced great financial difficulty during the dispute.I imagine other ranks affected too.

Did the AFAP charity arm extend this far?