not welcome at CX

[Shenlin]

Well i have been reading all the messages .One of my friends was fired from CX so i know how that hurt .On the other hand for people to post things like "you will not be welcome in my cockpit" hurts even more , because i figured we all fly under the same sky. I always remember how i stared washing airplanes , working at a mall to get enought money to get my instructor rating , breaking my first 1,000 hours . Then i got my right seat on a twin otter . I was not welcome either . Just an instructor . My captain had 36.000 hours with 21.000 hours on floats on twin otters and he HATED instructor types . He "rode " my ass for 6 month . Where did you learn how to fly ? was one of his favourite sayings . We became best friends and he taught me everything i know . I moved on and now fly single pilot IFR in BC Canada . I get up at 4 am to haul freight out of YVR . I see CX every day in the afternoon . By that time i have been up for 10 hours and i have 3 more trips .In the winter down to minimums with mountains on both sides . Yes i would love to have a co-pilot .I don 't know anybody who was born into a 747 , but i might be wrong.
I will not accept a position at CX , because i have not been offert one , (did not apply either ) . After reading people not welcoming new guys into CX i just thought i should post this because think about it . You are not trainig any new guys , your schedule will get worse and you will complain that you have to fly more. You have to drink beer with the same guys that are just about as bitter as you are and how boring a night over the ocean must be if you have nothing else to do than to think about how bad life is . Guess you do not remember flying a single engine airplane in IMC over the rocks . I know people will flame me , telling me that i don t know the real story behind the whole affair etc , but this is not what this post is about .It is about a guy not welcoming new crew into "His " cockpit , not realising that eventually he is cutting off his own foot. But just my thoughts and remember we all came from somewhere , and how glad you guys were when you got the call to fly the heavy stuff .... :( Life must be bad at 350 with a cup of coffee and a nice hotel to go to after you are done........

[kellykelpie]

Good post Shenlin. Will the real Cathay please stand up.

[whodunnit2]

Well said Shenlin.

I am with CX and it is truly a wonderful place to work.

Yes, yes, I know that it has problems, but I have never worked for a company that didn't have it's own set of hassles.

I think many people have forgotten what those days that Shenlin describes were like. Looking back at my GA days I remember all the good times but to be honest I would NEVER swop what I have now for them again.

Thanks Shenlin for reminding me!

:) :) :)

[acm]

well said Shenlin,

If I was in a CX pilot position in the moment, I would welcome any scab in the flight deck. And I will make sure that both of us are carrying our duty with normal and appropriate CRM.
But he would not be welcome to seat with me at the bar or wherever when off-duty.

[pontius's pa]

For which relief, dear acm, any one you deemed a scab would no doubt give thanks.

Sorry to repost but must clarify previous post as I have been misunderstood before due to not being especially specific.

was referring to the going for a drink bit

[shortly]

acm, sorry to see you giving succour to the childish mud slingers. I remind you of the position that has been aired many times on this Forum, there are no scabs at CX, only replacement workers. Please remember that the 49ers positions were filled from within the AOA itself (for whatever reason) all the new aircrew have only filled expansion slots. If you do get a guernsey for an interview I would be a tad more politic if I were you.

[slj]

Shortly

You said "If you do get a guernsey for an interview..."

Can you explain what this expression means.

My interest is that I live in GCI

Thanks

[shortly]

If you get offered an interview position. From what I have seen the 'dispute' rarely rates a mention at first or second interview. I am suggesting that if you want a job you stay out of that topic or risk some rather probing questions. Or perhaps you want the probing questions - is up to you.

[DownIn3Green]

Shenlin,

I couldn't agree more.

I'm currently working in a company where some of the mgmt were on one side of the fence in a labor dispute, several others were on the other side, and even a few were sitting on the fence.

We all get along, letting what occurred over a decade ago be forgotten...

What no one forgets, however, is no matter where you were in relation to that fence, ALPA did nothing positive for any of us, or we wouldn't be flying ancient a/c through the night for barely decent pay with little or no future with this company.

Even so, I run into guys all of the time who wouldn't give me the time of day, (much less the J/S because my airline wasn't on their approved J/S list) who are begging for a job because they're being Furloughed from their USAir or NWA or DAL job.

I would be very happy to be offered a position at CX, and just to be obstinate, I may apply.

If enough new hires get on the property, it may be guys like ACM finding themselves alone in the bar...

See you on the line...

[Cpt. Underpants]

Down etc., it may interest you to know that our retention rate of US nationals is extraordinarily low. Almost all have left, will leave and talk about leaving.

All the hothead talk aside, ask yourself why.

I don't give a toss if you apply, interview, get offered a job or the door. What I do care about is the very high cost of training someone for another carrier and the effect on the bottom line of CX.

I have found most Americans to be pleasant folks and good operators, and it's a shame to see them leave...all the good ones do.

Just make an informed intelligent decision based on facts, as I am sure you will, and you're 95% of the way.

[hughorgen]

:mad:

acm ! Its people like you who destroy lives, careers, FO self respect and reduce the safety of the operation !

:confused:

How can you say you are a professional Pilot when you'll move a flap handle but not a beer glass with a guy. Being an FO is a difficult enough job without retentive left seat Atlantic Barons preaching their unwelcome dross to the disinterested on their right !!!

The AoA has make a right Cock-up of their issues and expect non-AoA guys to suffer for their idiocy ! Let these guys have a real job that they have spent 10 years aiming for. Let them feed their kids and take pride in their achievements.

Donkeys like acm are past it and should retire and leave aviation for concerned, CRM aware professionals. With attitudes like these CX is doomed !!!

Remember CX will continue but the AoA may not !!!!:p

[FlexibleResponse]

Some may prefer to subscribe to the view that the "right Cock-up" and the subsequent "nuclear winter"was directly attributal to Cathay Pacific management.

[fire wall]

Possibly F/R, but the more learned and less myopic spectator would be inclined to think that both sides are self indulgent organisations hell bent on painting the other in enemy colours.
Think outside the "box" !!!

[acm]

well, well, well

CX management sacked 49 pilots a year ago, in what appear to be a gross injustice. Unions and IFALPA issued a recruitment ban for CX. I think that solidarity is very important in our profession and it is paramount that we stand together with our collegues who are victims of unfair treatment.
If you disregard this ban, you are a selfish person who have no concern about others collegues who lost their job in an ignomious and unfair manner.
We are not talking about a salary or roster dispute, we are talking about sacking 49 people without any notice an valuable reasons.
IFALPA is something quiet important in our profession even if your not an union member. Disregarding their recommendation is a very big mistake.
I would like to withdraw the word "scab" from my previous post as it is not appropriate. However I will have no sympathy for new guys who join an airline despite such a ban. As I said, I will make sure that you are very welcome on the flightdeck and that you feel confortable, but I prefer be honest with you and tell the guy what I think about what he did.
I am very concern by all those pilot who are working hard in tough condition or are not working at all and waiting for a job, (and I know what I'm talking about). I am more concern about the 49 pilots who lost their job, most of them without any reasons, in a political clash with an airline management.
CX method are a real shame, and the pilot community must defend their right. (The recruitment ban is a very soft way to do it)

Finally, this is a pilot forum, and whatever your opinion, there is no reasons to be rude. Rudeness is not welcome in any cockpit.

[backspace]

(The recruitment ban is a very soft way to do it)

ACM

I believe that the words you have spoken are the reason that the aviation community is divided over the AOA/IFALPA action/inaction.

If you are all serious about this then stand up as a group of employees and do something. The chosen way of asking prospective employees to fight for your cause when you as a group do nothing makes it pretty hard to mount a convincing argument. The "soft way" has proven to be ineffective and is most definitely not working.

Yes I know there are reasons that this was the chosen path but this is not in any major way hurting the company and the company is most definitely not going to negotiate anything the way things stand.

[Sir Shiraz]

ACM......does your keyboard not have an "S" ?????

;)

[acm]

You're absolutly right backspace.

Asking "prospective employee to fight for your case" is not the correct way to defend your interest. We saw recently that other airline pilot from other company are using much more strong means to fight their management for much less important issue. (industrial action to get pay rise for instance).

I am not a specialist of Hong Kong social law (if there is any ;) but IFALPA ask for a ban on recruitment as a way to fight. We apply SOP in our flight deck (good or bad sometime). We should follow IFALPA because the dispute is a very serious one. No management should sack pilot in such a way CX did it.

[tone-uncage-fire]

The fact remains that, at least in the public arena, the AOA are asking others to fight their battles. Show me where, in the last 12 months, the AOA has stepped up to the plate? They want others to turn down jobs without leading by example and taking their fight to their management. All the risks are being shouldered by the 'replacement workers' as the AOA members are none too willing to step up and be counted.

About time to put up or shut up and stop blaming others.

[Geddy]

They do it every day they go to work.

[on the glide]

Shenlin,

For sure it's a good thoughts for everybody.


good luck.;)

[shortly]

My brothers in the AOA. Your leaders have lost the plot. So has senior management at CX to this end. Where are you going to finish up? The pay check that comes in each month is worth more than a little consideration. Have you forgotten all the ills of your previous employment - probably you have. The 49ers are martyrs to stupidity and nothing less, rostering etc was the issue before they were hammered and little else has changed. I know of no airline where rostering is not the prime bane of contention. Please tell of one where it is not. Membership of the union is falling, costs are remaining constant Christ guys wake up.

[BusyB]

What`s the problem Shortly. The AOA is not taking any action only waiting for the court cases to run their course. Surely it will be good to know exactly where we stand with HK law. We`ve waited 14 months, 3 more won`t make much difference. There are a lot of us, both members and non-members, who have stayed out of the childish swapping of insults and are waiting to find out exactly what a contract is in HKG!!

[hughorgen]

Who was rude to you ????

Does one become deliniated as 'rude' for finding your comments offensive and therefore stating that fact ???

If you wish to post offensive statements about young pilots on this site be mature enough for others to clarify the facts from another viewpoint !



:eek:

[HUSTLER]

How dare you refer to us as "brother's"

YOU deserted your fallen brother's for financial reasons, dont you ever use that term again

HUSTLER

[shortly]

Hustler, I haven't deserted anyone. In my dealings, few and far between as they are, with senior management I routinely attempt to give support to the 49ers, there was a time when I believed my opinions were being listened to and hoped for the return of some of my brothers. And all aircrew are my brothers - and sisters, I have been working in the air for a long time and in many places. I have always attempted to be rational and reasonable in my pontifications. I sincerely hope the AOA is not pinning their faith in the legal systems elsewhere as a means to solving this dispute. Whatever the outcome of the court cases, and I don't hold much hope for an AOA victory anywhere as the action taken by the company, draconian as it was, was nonetheless legal in our system here and did not contravene any Hong Kong labour laws. The mere facts that the ban remains in place, contract compliance - work to rule - is still in vogue and the court actions themselves supported by the AOA are all examples of industrial action against the company. The company will never return to the negotiating table until all those things are dropped and there is a change in AOA leadership. Each day the AOA is getting weaker (IMHO) both financially and as a representative body for the pilots. Isn't it time to think outside the box?

[BusyB]

Shortly, If you and the company feel that using the mechanisms of the Justice system is Industrial action you really are morally bankrupt. The company has settled a number of actions before they reached the courtroom because there was a danger they would lose and set a precedent. If the AOA/ Individuals lose at least we will know exactly where we stand as at present assurances/contracts are made and broken routinely. In the meantime lets hope that honesty and integrity will count for something.

[shortly]

Morally bankrupt? If the court actions were personally funded by the members concerned - totally - and instigated by them individually then I would agree. But as these actions were determined by the union and funded, in the main, by the union - then how can it not be a form of industrial action? And I agree that honesty and integrity are the lost characteristics here, but lost by which of the parties involved?

[Liam Gallagher]

Shortly,

Putting the litigation regarding the 49ers to one side; the flag ship piece of litigation is what remains of HCMP 1679 of 1999 and the further litigation regarding Clause 22. If you don't know what this is, I suggest you do some research.

If you do not what it is, you will also be aware that Clause 22 came about as a result of "negotations" with the company and the conditions of Clause 22 were abandoned by the company when they became uncceptable to them. If you are not prepared to litigate to enforce such Clauses, why bother negotiating them in the first place?

Indeed, why bother with negotiation. Under your proposals, any new "AOA management" would have what tools to negotiate with? ...begging per chance???

[BusyB]

I think you are deliberately missing the point. If you take out legal protection insurance it does not mean that the insurer is taking industrial action when you call in the insurance. AOA/IFALPA membership is there to support you when you need help. Court action is not Industrial action, it is the action that you take through the local judicial process. Otherwise you are saying that employers are above the law when it comes to dealing with their staff. Oops, that is what you are saying!!

[mole]

Shortly,

I fear your slip is showing once again.

Of course the cases regarding breach of contract are being funded by the members concerned. Note the word members Shortly because it is the members who are paying up to get a decision from the Hong Kong courts to determine exactly what a contract in Hong Kong means. Note also that if the members win a judgement then non members will also benefit. You are obviously quite happy to be a free loader but a very significant majority are not. Morally bankrupt very aptly sums up your attitude.

[acm]

hughorgen

I am not surprised to see in your profile that your occupation is being "drunk".
You may disagree with me, but it is not necessary to call me a donkey or an asses like you've done in one of your previous post.

End of the story

[BusyB]

Shortly, I feel I must point out that whilst you write about constructive arguments on threads you seem to opt out when faced with a logical response! Its a shame really as it smacks of a closed mind.

[shortly]

BusyB. I have enjoyed reading your posts and see much of the logic in your argument. Perhaps I made too much of the 'morally bankrupt' comments that seemed to be flying my way. They hurt as I think that I am a very moral person. I am not in the 'know' as to what, where, when and how many court actions are pending. If the AOA litigant wins in Hong Kong then that is one thing and something would come of that. But you and I both know deep down that any court case in Hong Kong over these matters will go with the company. The court cases overseas are another thing/s, it is my opinion that even if the AOA litigants win all those cases then the findings will not be enforceable in Hong Kong and the company will ignore them. Perhaps a bit of good PR for the AOA - you would think - but remember that we expatriates are the minority here and the locals could not care less about what happens in court rooms OS or what happens to expatriate conditions in Hong Kong. Other than silently cheering every time an expatriate benefit is lost. I don't like lawyers and I am sad at the rise in litigation in general around the world. Did you know that even in the middle ages people said there was a special place in hell reserved exclusively for lawyers.

[Liam Gallagher]

Shortly,

For someone who admits to not being in the "know" regarding AOA litigation; you seem mighty keen to comment on it.

Makes me wonder what else you comment upon whilst not being in the "know".

[6feetunder]

Unenforceable? Ask Emirates about the jet that was impounded to satisfy a UK court decision. In the US CX has almost 30 flights a week into California, methinks they will miss one of them if it doesn't come back.

Very enforceable.