BUFFS fly till they're 80 years old!

[Travelling Toolbox]

I was reading an article the other day that stated the USAF refurb programs being carried out on the B52 fleet could conceivably see them remaining in service till well past their 80th birthdays (2040 or thereabouts).

With this in mind, is it beyond the ridiculous to think geriatric Chieftains, Kingairs and the like might still be seen plying our skies for similar marathon service lives if someone came up with a service program that would make it achievable? Obviously finite lives on major components (spars, fusealges etc) considered against the cost of total aircraft replacement, but what if?


Your thoughts guys and girls.....

[Chimbu chuckles]

It all depends on utilisation rates....low utilisation means that capital cost is a bigger factor than DOCs...high utilisation means the equation swings back the other way...when you factor in dispatch reliability as an important issue it further biases the argument in favour of new/er aircraft.

When you look at the capital cost of various aircraft these days it's little wonder that people look at refurb programs, and I mean refurbishment not dicking around the edges in a minimalist fashion.

As an example I own a 1970 model Bonanza which I bought for roughly 1/10th the costs of a new one. I have since spent that much again refurbishing her and overhauling the first life IO550...including a new spar and rib in one wing, a new stub spar in one horizontal stab and in the next year or so I'll have to do the same thing to the other wing. The radios work well but in the next few years I'll need to upgrade them...I had the interior done when I first bought her. All up I will end up with an A36 which in most (all:D) respects is as good as a new one for 1/4 of the new price...the only differences being a flash panel and high serial number...for a little more than 1/3rd the new price I could have the flash panel as well as new wiring:D

Tell me how people justify a new Bonanza...other than they have so much money that it just doesn't matter!

An airline with very high utilisation and a requirement for on time dispatch all over the world has a different set of imperatives...which is why QF/SQ/KA/CX etc etc buy new.

IMHO GA aircraft such as Barons/Titans/Chieftains etc are more in the lower utilisation stream and as such companes could never countenance the capital costs associated with replacement by new aircraft, because there are too many people out there trying to make a buck in GA so the available revenue is diluted to the point that it is impossible to justify newer aircraft.

That's not to say that there is a long life ahead of those aircraft in GA Charter companies in Australia...other forces act as well..not least of which is regulatory pressure.

121b may well see a vast reduction in the number of companies operating old Chieftains/Barons etc and therefore the fewer, more viable companies could then afford a good used C441...I think this is the way the industry is being herded and don't necesarily see it as a bad thing provided it is done sensibly.

You don't see Dragon Rapides and Ansons flying commercially anymore the way we did in the 60s...I think in 10 or 15 years C402s/Chieftains etc may be not nearly as thick on the ground as they are today.

Having said that I cannot see a replacement for C210s/A36s in VFR charter in such places as NT/WA etc...see above...what will replace them cost effectively?

Chuck.

[Bevan666]

Chimbu,

Not only did you get an almost 'as new' A36 in the end for 1/4 of the price, I bet yours has a lot better payload than the new ones.

The ones being built at the moment are 2-3 seaters with full fuel. I'd hazard a guess and say the EW of yours is around 1020kg or so? (depend on how plush your new interior is) The new ones are over 1150kg.

The MTOW has gone up from 1633kg to 1650kg. Not a big change.

Bevan..

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yep!!!:D:D

And after 2.5 years I now (almost:D) own her outright...thanks to skyrocketing quality coastal real estate values and subdividing:D

As a good mate of mine said..."He who dies with the most toys wins!":D

Chuck.

[MoFo]

Chimbu
That Bonanza reminds me of the tree cutter who said he has used the same good quality axe for 30 years.
Its had 15 new handles and 6 new heads in that time but still going strong.
A nice machine and hope it serves you well for many more years.
Cheers.

[High Altitude]

Chimbu...

HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS... STILL DIES...

[compressor stall]

Chuckles,

The airvan would seem to be a more than adequate replacement for the 210, provided they make a baggage area capable of holding more than a briefcase. After all garbage bags of dead goannas/dugong, a couple of **** and vomit stained blankets, and a carton of greencans need to be stowed somewhere.

Not sure about its STOL abilities though.

[Chimbu chuckles]

HA It was tongue in cheek...don't take life so serious:D

Besides what would you suggest...leave it to your children?:eek:

I'm luck I suppose...single Dad to a great girl and no wife to nag about the toy:D

And now I've got the Bonanza out of DN it might actually make money instead of costing money. Although I haven't kept track of the exact $ out of my own pocket, as opposed to what has been 'paid for' by well performing investments, and the aircraft itself, I would hazard a guess at 10% of total so far. Cheap fun if you ask me...shedloads more fun than the Russian Roulette run by 20 somethings on adrenaline highs at the Stock Exchange:D

Mofo....Well I see your point but it aint quite that bad...all I've spent money on is interior, paint, lot's of 'little' things that neglected aeroplanes end up needing done, engine overhaul, stub spar, one main spar and a rib. Still on the 'to do list' in the next year or three is the other wing (not bad or urgent yet..but inevitable) and the panel (also not urgent but inevitable). It would have been nice not to have had the corrosion problems...but hey it's a 32 year old aircraft that I paid a small fraction of new price for...I'm not complaining, the rest is just normal maintenance.

After 2.5+ years of ownership of this particular aircraft and what I learned from the 1963 C185 (magic machine!!) I owned in PNG over a decade ago I have a very refined Excel Spreadsheet in my 'puter projecting into the future. The aircraft will be upgraded in avionics and it's general condition, which is quite nice now, will continue to improve in the future. I have the aircraft going into a situation shortly of usage/earnings/maintenance/Insurance/tax effectiveness and hangerage that I'm very happy with indeed...I think, in general terms, it's been a 'good' investment (maintenance/insurance gotchas not withstanding...I continue to learn)...I have others that have made me (a lot) more money but none that have been as much fun...I get huge satisfaction out of aircraft ownership...it's fun working out how to do it without just shelling huge wads of (your own) cash out:D

Stallie...I can't think of an uglier aeroplane than the Airvan....why can't Australians design good looking aeroplanes...like the Twin Otter, Porter etc....not pretty but purposefull...Nomad, GA8:(

Imagine what could have been if those intellectual retards Ozies keep voting into power actually had the brains to foster a home grown aviation industry all those years ago instead of forcing us to 'Buy American'.

Perhaps then we would not be paying USD for every spare part...heaven forbid we might have ended up exporting good old Ozzie know how aeroplanes to the world...I suspect with a vibrant aerospace industry (that we almost had) we might have come up with a few better aeroplanes than the Gonad etc.

Chuck.

[Tinstaafl]

I think the GA8 is more a replacement for, and upgrade from, the C206 and not the C210.

115kts vs. 160kts isn't it?

[High Altitude]

Chimbu... We share something in common, being a single dad is great!!!

I wasn't having a go, a mate of mine who owned all the toys had that very poster on his office wall and yet still managed to take his own life???


The 210... There is no replacement! Nothing compares or will ever compare except a new 210. The Airvan is great in a role but it is to slow for say Darwin, would be great in Gove. It would add 1/2 hour alone on the outbound leg of a Kakadu scenic... Cessna rep was tellen me at the last airshow they were thinking of a 206RG now that would come close.

Read the latest Professional Pilot (yankee mag) and you will see that even in the states they are leaning towards just upgrading of the pistons, i.e. radios...

Chimbu will Darwin ever lose the reputation of being a bad place to dry hire aircraft to? In all our years we have only ever really p*ssed of one owner, and well he deserved it, I have been burnt to many times. I know certain companies have tarnished the reputation of others. Who had your Bonanza??? let me geuss...

Anyways to anyone who has an aircraft and wants to cross hire, we are still in search of more more more, another C421C would be lovely... :D

[D.Lamination]

Getting back to the original subject:

I recently watched the movie "Dr. Strangelove" again for the first time in ages.

There is quite a long and seemingly (?) technically accurate B-52 bomb run sequence (Captains antics notwithstanding!) a la 1960's style. Lots of good footage of the inside of the Buff. The weapons release officer , or what ever he is offically called, is none other than a very young James Earl Jones (Deep voice: THIS is CNN).

Worth a trip to the video store on a wet weekend.:D

[Woomera]

It was also a masterpiece that was banned in the US because it took the mickey out of them.

It was great comic relief for those of us living in those times when being made to "glow in the dark" was an ever present threat as it showed the sheer banality and futility of war.

Apart from the brilliant acting roles by Peter Sellers.

His conversation as US President with the Soviet Premier trying to avert mutual anihilation was a classic and his portrayal of the ex? nazi scientist, the Dr, has to be the funniest and most cutting characterisation of what war is about I have seen.

My children still will not believe that as a child at primary school in the 50's we used to do serious nuclear attack drills, yup right here in sunny Oz. I still remember with some discomfort the Cuban missile crisis.

[Chimbu chuckles]

HA as far as dry hiring aircraft to DN operators is concerned;

What would you consider to be a reasonable monthly utilisation rate and dry hire rate for a C210/A36?

The going rate seems to be $130/hr and at that rate you need about 40+ hours/mth to make it worthwhile....my aircraft never got near that usage.

I was paying 5.75% of hull for insurance...where the aircraft is now it's 2.25%.:eek:

Maintenance in DN is double, at least, what you pay down here...$2700 to $4000 for a 100 hourly:eek: compared to $1200 to $1500 down here.

DN, IMHO, is defined as too many people trying to make a buck out of the Govt/Aborigines (no problem with that in itself:D) and the rates they offer owners, in my experience, are way below what it costs to provide the operators with the aircraft.

But that, as Gaunty always points out, is what is wrong with the industry at every level below Regional Airline.

Bevan666,

My aircraft is 1013kg Basic empty wt with the IO550 and 3 bladed Black mac prop...but still 1633kg MTOW...I wonder whether, with the engine/prop upgrade of the later models why mine shouldn't have the upgraded MTOW of 1650kg?

It's only 17kg but worth having I would think.

Are the new ones really 1150kg empty:eek:?

I sat down tonight and designed a Load/Trim sheet in excel, including a scaned copy of the actual manual's CofG envelope inserted at the bottom of the page. All I have to do is enter pax/baggage weights and fuel in liters and it automatically calculates zero fuel wt, Takeoff wt and Landing wt and their respective CofG positions...hit 'print' and go:D

The fact that the extra 137kg of usefull load that my 'old' aeroplane gives me is eqaul to 190lt out of the 280lt total useable that the old girl carries makes her a very flexible machine indeed:D

Chuck.

[elektra]

Woomera

You're so right about Sellars and Dr Strangelove. It was great. Maybe we should start a thread here on great flying movies so that younger pilots could get an idea on where a lot of flying lore came from.

I could start with "Dawn Patrol", "Reach for the Sky", "Dambusters" "Bridges at Toko-Ri", "Sound Barrier", "Strategic Air Command" (great B-36 shots), "The Great Waldo Pepper", "The Great Santini" etc etc.

Or has this been done?