Massey University's E110 ZK-ECM?

[cyco]

I have heard that Massey have leased and are looking at buying Air National's Bandit.

I was told that they are using it for night freight and pilot training for students requiring turbine endorsments.

Is this info correct and can anyone shed anymore light on the subject.

[Split Flap]

Had heard rumors of things along similar lines with the machine based at PM.
Dont know if Massey will have much to do with the freight side of things...not really their scene? Perhaps sub leasing to another operator?
Will be interested to see how people still operating these machines get around fitting GPWS TCAS etc etc, I heard that fitting the aircraft with the equipment required by CAR125 was almost as costly as the aircraft.

Where theres a will theres a way.

[Sqwark2000]

ZK-ECM is owned & operated by new freight company "The Night Fleet" , based in PM, which I believe has one contract at the moment and that is AA - NP.

They have signed a training agreement with Massey University to provide Turbine ratings and line experience for the Aviation degree.

Don't know the deal but rumoured to be similar to Citijets deal except worse:eek:

$20K for type rating and maybe 20-50hrs line experience.

Was set up by a Massey Grad's father, after his son completed his degree but couldn't get a job (go figure)
:confused: :confused: :confused:

So daddy says "Don't worry son, Im not going let you waste MY money that I've spent on your degree. I'll buy a Bandit, fly freight and sell time at a pinch to eager Massey students"

"I should think so dad"

S2K

[CI300]

Sqwark2000, ha ha ha. thats so how it works. Why am I not surprised.

[Sharfted Groundhog]

I see they are still looking for a training captain (on Rishworth's website)..... Obviously those with experience are keeping a wide berth...... I wonder why!?!?!

I hear they are going to be training the chinese students being trained for their national carrier. Does that mean it'll be more like the following scenario?: "Two pilot, freight at night, with an FO that has english as a second language and passed his IF rating a fortnight ago"........ I'm surprised training captains arn't lining up at the front door! NOT.

Another realistic entrant into the aviation community. When will these people learn!:rolleyes: :mad:

[Split Flap]

Oh Deary Me

Dont people ever learn?

[Blue Line]

I wounder if anyone will tell them that once they have done this & got the hours that everyone will look at em & then look away :D

[GAMAN]

OK so you pay your 20k get a rating and 20 odd hours copilot, so what? You're still of no use to anyone without some decent number of hours under your belt and some for-real experience. I can think of far better things to spend 20k on. Why, that would almost get you a 737 rating!

I have heard that Air Nat still have access to the bandit for charter work.

[oncewasakiwi]

so im just guessing now but id say the bandit probably has no autopilot
but using the logic of eagle air this would be perfectly safe because there is 2 instruiment rated pilots
you just couldnt pay enough for some jobs:D

[Sharfted Groundhog]

I have heard that Air Nat still have access to the bandit for charter work.
Why am I not surprised that those turkeys are tied up with this?


Somethings never change.

[clutchcargo]

Well......

This indeed poses an interesting thought...

Does this mean that Air National now has another means of subsidising their operation?

Does this mean that Massey will now be advertising that they have a "relationship" with an airline, in which their students gain operational experience. (It is interesting to note that some of the directors of the night freight company are also involved in the running of Massey Aviation - conflict of interest? You decide)

With Ministry of Education funding (i.e Student loan - read our tax)
it seems on the surface they have an unlimited source of revenue in which to "artifically" ensure there is going to be no competition.


Shades of Cityjet - but far worse

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Clutchcargo: Yes to all of the above!

One would have to wonder about either Mr Gray's motives in the first instance; I would of thought he had scr*w*d his staff enough by now to have made back the money he lost in the TP demise, or at least how the hierachy of Massey are thinking in getting into this line of business. As you say, it looks good to be able to offer students time in an 'airline environment'.....

Here's hoping the rest of the industry can also smell the 'CityJet' smell around this deal.

[Albatross]

Shades of Cityjet but far worse? They are going to have to try pretty hard to out do Cityjet. For starters it sounds like you actually might get some of the flying you paid for.

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Worse because of the fact that this is Mk II...... Is the flying worth anything anyway? Who is going to employ you with 50 hours bandit time anyway? Might as well stay at the local flying school and get paid peanuts to fly their Senneca or Duchess!

If Mr Gray is tied up with it, I'm sure the peanuts will be rashened if you get the chance to do any flying post the 50 hours you paid for!

[Girt_bar]

Shafted

A majority of the students gaining the endorsements are Xiamen cadets who are gauranteed a job anyway.

[clutchcargo]

Girt_Bar

A majority of the students.....

Are half a dozen chinese students worth getting involved in a Bandit and freight run for? I think not. What is going to happen once the chinese training has finished?

Have a look at the bigger picture and think about what it would do to the industry - don't you think we should learn from the past.

Albatross

...it sounds like you actually might get some of the flying you paid for.
Student loans (i.e MOE funded pilots) subsidising a freight operation under the guise of "advanced training" where they place a 200 hour pilot into the right seat of a Bandit for 50 hours, at the cost of $20k.
I'm sure the directors of the freight operation would happily pay $10.00 per flying hour for the priviledge of taking $20k from you.

And while you are working the 3 other jobs to support yourself while you fly night freight for your career - think about the fatigue aspect (Nothing like falling asleep whilst on the arc at 3am is there, especially when the weather is down to minimas).

[Sharfted Groundhog]

Girt_Bar; yes, you are right; the 'majority' of the pilots being trained are going back to China for their carrier. I think the main concern regarding this operation would have to be the 'other' pilots who will go to Massey, see the operation, pay their own money and join the chinese students.

Would you stand back and watch other pilots paying for turbine time and getting 'better' experience than you? I think not..... It'll be a snowball effect and you can mark my words; the chinese will end up being the 'minority' after a while.

As Clutchcargo has already said; the hierachy of both Air Nat and M.A will realise this and understand the snowballing that will take place and the money that can be made - at the expence, I must say, of the rest of us in airlines..... It'll be us that ends up flying with these turkeys when there is pilot shortages again. I'm sure there are many people who can remember a few pilots coming out of a similar scheme who were really glorified radio operators! (Not entirely their own fault - who at 20 yrs old, is going to argue with either mngmt or their cptn who both keep telling him that (s)he's lucky to even be there?!)

I'm sure that'll raise the standards of the industry again! NOT! :rolleyes:

[Oktas8]

As a flight instructor I tend to react to the idea of other pilots paying for turbine time, and gaining "better jobs" than me at the other end. But first reactions are often unjustified, and I wonder how many posters on this thread have thought through the whole issue?

Having read all the messages on this thread, it seems many pilots are upset by the concept of this "pay as you go" way into a turbine powered carrier, especially as many other pilots are making comparisons between this new scheme and CityJet and other fly-by-nighters (excuse the pun - I could not resist. :) )

However I am coming to realise that there are always going to me a) pilots who can afford to buy that 737 type rating and b) pilots who attend a student-loan funded course to do much the same thing. For this reason it is futile trying to put the blame for the existence of these courses onto some part of the industry.

The continued existence of these courses is not the fault of the students, who like all of us are looking for the quickest & most efficient way to reach career aspirations. It is not the fault of the instructors, who are merely trying to earn a living in the cockpit. It is not the fault of the flying school, who are meeting a perceived need by filling short-term goals. (This is after all what successful non-government businesses do, including every flying school I've ever heard of.) It is not the fault of the airlines, for they will not pass up the chance to employ from a pool of "ready-trained" candidates. As long as there is solid evidence that 5000 hours is not required to be a good first officer, airlines will employ graduates from turbine training schemes, despite low hours.

Many pilots seem to be complaining that the cadets are wasting their money, and that someone should tell them that they won't get jobs at the end of it.

It is true that in Australasia airline jobs are not given to freshly trained pilots (except occasionally, eg Qantas from time to time.) But in Europe and Asia, and the USA to a lesser extent, airlines are recruiting directly from advanced flying schools. It is inevitable that the same will happen here; the question is not if but when. So if students in 2002 are wasting their money, be assured that students in 2005 (or 2010, or 2015) will not be.

This is not a reason for jealousy on my part. However other pilots choose to pursue their careers, I am still a professional pilot earning a living by flying. Did I enter the profession to do exactly that? Yes. So it is no business of mine how other pilots choose to advance their careers, provided there is no dishonesty involved.

If pilots really do think that poorly trained students are getting out into the workforce, there are avenues to pursue to fix it. You could get some solid evidence for the claim so your company does not employ 500 hour pilots. Or you could use that dusty old instructor rating to pass on your experiences at the aero club on weekends. Or you could use that flight examiner rating to ensure that the unsafe students do not pass initial check rides. I know of several airline pilots doing one or more of the above, and I appreciate the chance to learn from them. If like me you are an instructor, you can make sure from the students' first day that they know how hard it is to make a living in aviation, and give some career counselling if they don't.

Well, my rant is over. There's a fair bit of idealism in this, but that is better than repetitive complaining for something none of us can change, no?

happy flying to all - especially those who would prefer to be using power levers than throttles :D
O8

[Girt_bar]

I should probably make it clear that I am not at Massey (or Ardmore for that matter) and I don't condone what is going on. My statement was based on what I was told first hand.

[flyby_kiwi]

Much like I assume Octas 8 and others think - I too dont disagree with how people choose to progess thier careers (such as self funding turbine). What would concern me is that in this case I can see Massey using this whole 'exlusive Bandit experience' deal as a sales pitch to hold against the other training organisations.

The whole full-funding student loan system (for which I dont support) was used in the same way.

I remember back when Massey were the only ones offering full funding. Needless to say it was this that at the time (while fresh off the street and with little understanding of the industry) almost tipped the scales and would have seen me at Massey. (Although all did change at the 11th hour.)

Couple of years down the track Flight2000 started offering full-funding followed shortly by Ardmore and now I hear of various aeroclubs around the country about to (if havnt already) follow too.

I say scrap the whole full funding and I think things will change for the better. (I could be wrong but somehow doubt it).

[GAMAN]

Look, disregarding the Chinese students here I don't believe that doing 50hrs or whatever in a bandit is really going to help your cause.

Let's take the fresh commercial pilot with MEIFR. Their two prospective paths are either instructing or GA.

Now 50hrs turbine isn't really going to help you get a job instructing as it isn't very pertinent to the brand spanking new PPL that has just walked through the door. Once you have been instructing for a while it may seem tempting to go and get the rating but genuine single pilot MEIFR is better.

Nor is it very aplicable to the local GA operators. I live in the Auckland area so let's use Mtn Air/ GBA as an example. They are looking for people who have recently achieved MEIFR status so they can nurture them through the ranks. Again bandit time isn't all that aplicable. Sure GBA has a nomad but you won't touch it until you have about 1300 hours and have been with the company for some time I believe.

In short I think that your money is far better spent charging around the country doing SINGLE PILOT IFR, preferably in something reasonably fast like a chieftan. This is far more respectable than sitting in the right hand seat of a bandit with someone letting you do the easy parts.

[Oktas8]

flyby & GAMAN - true. I hate to see people are leaping feet first into aviation, thinking student loans means it doesn't matter how much it costs. We'll end up with a bunch of pilots still struggling for that first $10/hr job, just with bigger debts than before.

In case anyone misunderstands - until Air NZ starts employing sub-500 hour pilots I would not advise someone to do a course because of student loan funding or a short stint of turbine time. Neither are of much use in the long run I think, as already said by others. I tell my students that too if they ask...

[kev2002]

While we're on the topic of flight training does anyone have any info (or opinions) on the Bay of Plenty Flight Centre.