Part time CPL at a smaller school, does it really matter?

[MorningGlory]

I'd like some opinions of those involved in the recruitment/training side of things, on whether or not the 'unwritten rule' of only going to a BIG school and doing the CPL full time is acceptable to the airlines for that all important first job.

Due to the temporary (I hope) downturn in low hour pilot recruitment, I have decided after only having just completed all of the ATPL groundschool & exams, to go back to work for a while and pay off some debts from training, before commencing the CPL/IR full time.
However, some of the smaller approved schools are offering 'part time' CPL's so you can work at the same time.

All sounds great BUT, do the Airlines really not like this type of training at SMALLER less known schools, & could it be a possible disadvantage to me & others thinking of training this way?

Your help/opinions/advice most appreciated! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: MorningGlory ]</p>

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you want to get picked up straight into a jet then a big school with great grades helps.

If you consider this remote possibility a too huge gamble then save £10,000 and use small schools and aim to get a first job with a regional probably turboprop operator.

WWW

[Flysundone]

Morninglory

I think many airlines prefer candidates to have done an integrated course of training. As you hsve completed your ATPL exams you are obviously on the modular route. As an example of the airlines' attitude to non integrated course applicants BA Citi-Express were interested in
CAP 509 graduates or if not you had to have a minimum of 1000 hours.

To avoid running up large debts it may be better to do the Modular CPL first and the Modular IR later. It is worth remembering that if the market doesn't pick up your IR may well gather dust.

At least if you get your CPL you can then do a FI course and do some instructing to build hours. That is assuming you can get an instructing job in the current climate.

Hope you find this helpful

[MorningGlory]

Thanks Guys for your valuable advice. Just worried about going to a small school part time and then getting knocked backed for it later on.

I need to make a decision after Xmas, but don't really want to wait 6 or 12 months before starting the CPL, like I said I'm just worried about what my 1st job prospects would be like If I go this route.

[MAX]

I cant see the problem with going to small schools. Took me best part of 4 years and every unknown school unknown to man to get qualified. Still signed contract for a 757 within a month of IR and next to no hours (until Sep 11). Since then my current employer doesnt give a monkeys either.All comes down to your face fitting, contacts, interview technique and blitzing your sim ride.

Its funny because I thought everyone had to pass 'exactly' the same test when in the air, regardless of which school you went to.

MAX <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[MorningGlory]

MAX,

1st of all well done on your job. 2nd, I agree, I know the flight tests are the same, this is my point.

Why do the airlines have a seemingly 'unwritten rule' that you must attend a large school (seems to be most cases, and your case is a refreshing change to hear!)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Sounds to me like Max's CV probably shouts loudly "this pilot kept trying against lots of things against him". That should impress anybody and I suspect the size of individual schools is probably irrelevant.

G

[MorningGlory]

Hope so, because somebody with good grades, 1st time passes on the CPL/IR, and someone who will fit in well in the Airline, should in my opinion get the right hand seat.
Rather than some rich kid who's daddy could afford to pay for all of their training at a bigger school, especially if that's the only thing going for them.

Surely it should be the quality of the instruction and not the name of the school? Big name doesn't necessarily meant better instruction than everyone else!
What's the matter with the Airlines?

Merry Christmas!

[ 25 December 2001: Message edited by: MorningGlory ]</p>

[rolling circle]

Since leaving Oxford and getting back to the real world, I've had the chance to talk to a number of people from the training departments of numerous airlines. The general feeling is that whilst it used to be the case that airlines preferred graduates from the CAP509 schools, JAR-FCL has changed all that. An increasing number of airlines, notably BRAL, have made it known that they will not even consider graduates from integrated courses. Training staff have found that such pilots have been trained only to pass the IRT in a light twin and have little or no grounding in the basic skills of operating an aircraft. It now takes more training to put an integrated student on line than it does a modular student.

To be fair to the integrated schools, if you have only 75% of the training time, you can produce only 75% of the pilot. Under CAP509 the minimum flight training time was 200 hours, under JAR-FCL it can be as little as 140 hours. It is notable that OATS have found it necessary to offer a longer course (at an increased price) and that ATP Academy see a market for an 'advanced' course. BA now (suspension of training aside) put their cadets through a 'Jet Orientation Course' which was not deemed necessary in the CAP509 days.

The word on the streets seems to be that a CPL and IR gained through the modular route, along with some meaningful experience, is nowadays worth a lot more, in the airlines' eyes, than the same qualifications gained through the integrated route.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Lets not get into who is the better pilot - integrated or modular. Its the same old song as 509 vs Self Improver and everyone decided that was a pointless argument in about 1997 on this forum.

JAA should break down the barriers a little between the two and the course are now much more similar than in the days of 509. The airline recruiting people will take a good while to forget the ingrained history of you are either experienced, 509 or an hours builder. Its what they know and understand. The new system looks pretty much the same but with different names. It isn't and that fact will take a few years to sink in I am afraid.

It is a fact that a large FTO can help catapult you into a very good jet job and I have seen it happen many many times.

97% of the time this is because the following happens (i.e. NOT because you put OATS/CABAIR/BAE in bold print at the top of your CV!):

Man at BA: I say Nigel, looks like we could take two extra 200hr chaps on the next intake as 2 of our original chaps went belly up and decided to be stock brokers instead.

Other Man at BA: Really? Jolly good, I'll give Bob a ring at Kidlington/Jerez/Cranfield and ask him if he has any spiffing chaps just graduating.

Ring Ring... A hespered CFI's office:

Man at BA: Hello Bob, need two chaps for the March sim courses. Do you have any that got over 85% on their exams and passed their tests first time and are bloody nice chaps?

CFI: Why yes Bob, I know just the fellows, they were buying me beers in the bar last night actually. I'll get you their CV's in the post this afternoon.

Man at BA: Jolly good. See you at the next course graduation bash Bob!

CFI: Excellent Nigel - I promise not to throw you in the pool full of female Swedish foreign language exchange students this time :-)

Man at BA: Jolly good.

Two weeks later the CFI's bright eyed boys are at Cranebank for an interview and a sim course start the week after that...

The above applies to most large jet UK operators particularly those that do some kind of sponsorship.

You don't get that if you train at Little Piddlington in the Marsh.

Compensatory factors may be that at a small flying school/club you may find instructors who are senior Captains in airlines or such people flying about in their Pitts escaping their wives on days off. I regularly used to share a coffee and help pull about an aeroplane being operated by a recently retired Concorde Skipper who held the Transatlantic speed record until quite recently. It took a while to foster him as a contact and it never helped me but it is something that doesn't happen if you are inside prison camp Kidlington/Cranfield/Jerez...

With no airlines sponsoring at present and also not hiring their own cadets in training the large FTO advantage has dissapeared in this respect.

Good luck,

WWW

[MorningGlory]

Thanks WWW,

Right! I'm going to earn some cash for Six months, pay off the debts so far, then go to either Oxford/Cranfield/BAe in July for the CPL/IR and MCC!

Glad that's sorted!

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: MorningGlory ]</p>

[MAX]

Now hand up recent Graduates from OATS etc who have recently been hired? Come on, you up the back, anyone?...anyone?....

I think waiting 6 months is a great idea regardless of your final decision. Best of luck to you Glory.

MAX <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[juggernaut]

I work at a small flying school which also teaches JAR CPL modular courses, last year we had eleven of our self improver instructors leave to go to the airlines, for the last six months all the CPL training has dried up and now the work has shifted to training ex oxford students who have frozen ATPL and IR and are now doing instructors ratings, this proves to me that there is no substitute for hours and the airlines are not recruiting 200hour pilots at the moment, think carefully before spending a lot of dosh on a full time course or you may find you have to spend another £6000 on top for that FIC rating in order to get a job in a years time!