Hour building in US...You need a Visa !

[avrodamo]

I have read the thread from Naples in relation to the Visa requirements. In particular item 1 states that you don't need a Visa to hour build. Only 2 days ago i faxed the American Embassy in London, explaining i intended to hour build, that i held JAA PPL and FAA PPL, and that i required no training. The consulte were quite clear in their reply. I needed to obtain a B-2 tourist Visa as i was flying, and without it entry would be refused. This will also require the aircraft hirer/school to provide a letter of verification on headed paper.This has to include your licence details, and details of aircraft you will be flying and it's MTOW.
Current turn around time is 10 working days....just a thought before you cross the pond;)

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

avrodamo,

I last spoke with the U.S. Embassy in London Friday afternoon. The assistant to the Ambassador was telling me they are getting changes to the rules just about daily now. They are trying to keep up themselves, let alone keep everyone else informed. I was not told about the B-2 requirement (up till now the B-2 was preferred, but Visa Waiver was acceptable.), I will look into it and update my post accordingly.

Thank you for the heads up,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

avrodamo,

I Just heard from Homeland Security in response to your question.

If you already hold a U.S. Licence, whether a Full FAA Licence or a Restricted FAA Licence issued on the basis of your Foreign Licence, you can enter the country on a Visa Waiver as long as it is just flying for pleasure. You cannot take any instruction or work on any ratings other than the aircraft checkout for insurance purposes.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[avrodamo]

There is obviously considerable confusion here then. Both myself and another guy who is also coming out to hour build have both been told by the NIV Chief at the embassy in London if your flying for pleasure you will need a B-2 Visa.
It is clearly an area that needs some clear guidelines, as its clear the US and London embassy are not singing from the same song sheet!

[3db]

Avrodamo
Agree, I was informed by the US visa section in the UK about 2 weeks ago "if you are flying in the USA, you now need a visa". I note NAC states you don't need it for a bi-annual etc, but in the UK that's not how they are interpreting it. It probably needs a little time for the dust to settle - then thay might be able to see the song sheet!

[Johnny 7]

Speaking to the FAA , I believe I understood that if you are flying for recreational purposes using an FAA licence that was not issued on the strength of an ICAO licence , a visa is not required for a British citizen . However , things change on an almost daily basis & the consensus was that the system would become more restrictive for non-U.S. citizens wishing to fly in the U.S.

[3db]

Johnny 7
That is not how the visa section at the USA embassy here in the UK were interpreting the new regs which came into force 1 Aug 2002, about 2-3 weeks ago. It might be what the FAA wanted, but that has not filtered through to the UK visa section. They stated to me all flying required a visa - they even faxed me confirmation of same. I have a FAA licence only. Visa should arrive this week.

[GonvilleBromhead]

Blimey, talk about muddy waters. Good thread though, keep any info coming guys.

I'm planning to go over in a couple of months purely for hour building. I've only a JAA PPL and just sent off my documents for the FAA background checks to be carried out. Up until now I've been led to believe no visa required. I take it this is now superceded ? Any ideas what type of visa I would possibly need ?

thanks folks.

[GoneWest]

Gonvil - are you aware that part of those checks done by the FAA require a response from the UK CAA.......and that the UK CAA are refusing to do it??

There is, currently, a major stumbling block with regard to the "conversion" of CAA to FAA licences.

It would do you well to start studies towards gaining a full FAA PPL - by means of both written test and skill test (known to them as "check ride").

The written can be done in UK before you come here - and is information that you will need to know anyway.

[GonvilleBromhead]

Cheers GW, yeah I knew the CAA had a hand in providing the FAA with the required info, I didn't know they are refusing to take part though.

Is that official (I don't doubt what you say, nothing the CAA will/won't do surprises me), but do the FAA know this ? I take it then nobody has successfully tried this route ?

So the only way of doing the conversion now is the writtens and checkride ? I don't mind doing it this way, as you say, it needs to be done one way or the other anyway, just hadn't banked on it that's all.

Where did you hear GW that the CAA are not co-operating with the FAA background checks ?

cheers,
Gb.


Edit to add links:

http://www.caa.co.uk/caanews/caanews.asp?nid=566

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_flying_in_USA.pdf

Not looking too good, certainly for anyone in a rush anyway.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

avrodamo,

I have verified from the head of Homeland Security and the head of the Visa Issuing Department of the U.S. Embassy in London, that the scenario I described earlier:

If you already hold a U.S. Licence, whether a Full FAA Licence or a Restricted FAA Licence issued on the basis of your Foreign Licence, you can enter the country on a Visa Waiver as long as it is just flying for pleasure. You cannot take any instruction or work on any ratings other than the aircraft checkout for insurance purposes.

...Is in fact correct.

Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[Johnny 7]

Aha !

The FAA told me that training is permissable providing you have a full FAA licence & that the a/c MTOW is 12,499Lbs or less . My situation is different in the sense that I hold a visa , although it is nearly 3 years old & I've had no additional background checks since issue - seems like a case of closing the stable door ....

The discussion with the FAA was as recently as last Friday .

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Alas, the FAA has not got a clue what the Immigration rules are! In fact, with the speed that the rules are changing, even the Embassy in London admitted that things are going crazy and they are trying to catch up whilst being understaffed!:rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

To stir the muddy waters even more:

What is the visa requirement, if any, for a pilot on a UK licence requiring annual aircraft type safety training on a simulator in the USA?:confused:

[Sentenza]

Hi All,

FWIW, the consulate in Vienna just now told me that I need a B-1/B-2 visa if I want to fly for pleasure with my FAA certificate.

Just filled out the paperwork, took me about two hours. Supposedly takes one day to have the visa issued. So, not a big hassle, and whether I enter on the visa waiver program or on a B-visa makes not difference to me.

KR, Mike

[Johnny 7]

ShyTorque

A visa is required for anyone holding a non-FAA licence , who is not a U.S. citizen , and is not flying for recreational purposes . The real problem as I see it is the weight limitation imposed on foreign licence holders , although if you are rotary this may not be as relevant . I understand it applies to the sim as well as the a/c .

Anyone care to enlighten us ?

[Time to Fly]

Great News.

It seems that you no longer need a Visa for JAA training in the States. You can train on any aircraft just as long as you do not do any FAA training. IFTA is currenty offering specials to anyone that will come over and they have all the information explained.

Take a look,

THE 'INS' SPECIAL OFFER (http://internationalflighttraining.com/General%20Pages/Visa%20Update.htm)

Here is the documentation and how they did it.

http://internationalflighttraining.com/images/Chris%20INS1.jpg

http://internationalflighttraining.com/images/Chris%20Visa.jpg

http://internationalflighttraining.com/images/Chris%20INS2.jpg

I am so glad we do not need to worry about Visas.

TTF

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Hmmmmmm.........

Strange how all these budding student pilots are being told direct from the Embassy that they need a Visa, but that one school on the US says not!!!!

How about, rather than the one student's paperwork that managed to get through Immigration, we see the actual offer from the Immigration dept. posted!

All students should verify with the US Embassy concerning the need for Visas to fly in the US.

[Whirlybird]

The situation sounds ridiculous to me. Suppose I go on holiday to the US. I don't need a visa. I happen to hold an FAA licence issued earlier this year, and while I'm over there, I might on a whim decide to do some flying. What then?

[Time to Fly]

I spoke to the U.S. Embassy today and was informed that you must have a visa for any type of flight training. It does not matter if it is training under the FAA, JAA, or even Mars. If it is flight training that you receive, the proper visa you must have.

Sorry if I confused the issue,

TTF

[notice]

WOT I WORKED OUT IS:

You need (and always did need) a US student visa to attend a 'school' there, whether it was for accountancy, aviation, fan-dancing, hairdressing, history or muff-diving. The nature of the training is irrelevant but, if the place you attend is recognised as a 'school', as defined by the USA, you must have a student visa.

Most of the FTO's patronised by non-Americans are not 'schools', so you do not need a student visa to train there. However, some, such as Naples, are 'schools', as defined by the USA, and you will need a student visa to go there, hence the big wind-up from that direction. Not that Americans need much help in being wound-up but it seems that commonsense is now prevailing.

As anyone with half a brain had worked out, Terry O'Wrist or Mohammed Jihad never need to acquire flying, or any, knowledge and skill in the USA, or UK, in order to commit atrocities there. You could acquire any knowledge and skill in any number of countries and then enter the USA as a tourist, prior to buying an aircraft, boat or shotgun (all legally!).

Pity that PPRuNe panders to the persecution of pilots, when we/it should be fighting for our rights..........

[Time to Fly]

When I spoke to the U.S. Embassy, which I suggest you do too at 0207 499 9000, they took the time to explain the law to me.

The place that you train is irrelevant. If it is on U.S. soil and it involves training in a contraption with wings, you must have a visa. It does not matter if it is with Flight Safety International in Florida or from an eskimo teaching out of his igloo in Alaska. If you are flight training you must have a visa.

Better yet, look at the thread from Naples Air Centre. The information in there was the same as what the U.S. Embassy in London relayed to me.

TTF

[avrodamo]

Well, it would appear at this moment in time there is still much confusion. My B-2 Visa has arrived and so im all set to go. I was panicking when i rang the information line to see if my Visa had been processed. My understanding was it took 10 days to process, and when i rang on the 20th Sep i was told they had not even started processing Visa applications recieved on the 10th Sep (mine arrived on the 11th !!)The term Process though is being abused slightly!. The very helpful guy at the Embassy in London explained that the 10 days is basically how long it sits in the queue. It takes about 30-60 mins to actually process the application and stamp the passport with the Visa, and pop it in an envelope back to you. Only thing that would really hold it up are criminal convictions.
At the end of the day as my old friend GoneWest told me;do you want to 'wing' it, and dabble with being turned around at immigration with 'Deported' stamped in your passport, or fill in a few forms, give them £46.00, wait 2 weeks, and let them scribble over a page in your passport.....better safe than sorry me thinks. TTF's entry into the US turned out OK, but what if his supervisor had come back and said NO. It's down to the man on the gate. If he say No then it's back on the next plane to blighty ! !;)

[GoneWest]

Thanks "Avro".

Seems life may be getting even harder - this, from AOPA..

BILL REQUIRES MORE SCREENING OF FOREIGN STUDENTS
The Senate Commerce Committee last week passed an amendment to the Aviation Security Improvement Act that would require background checks for all foreign flight school candidates regardless of the weight class of aircraft they wish to learn to fly.

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

The screening what Gone West is talking about is what is happening now with the ISEAS system which is an interim measure to the SEVIS system that comes into effect in January.

As with anything, it will take some time to impliment, however, once in place I believe that it will all run as smoothly as the past procedures. I understand that the Embassy is still trying to catch up from all the changes but feel that they should have things back to normal pretty soon.

[Time to Fly]

I have been looking more closely at schools in Florida to see what is being offered for training.

So far OFT and OBA told me to just enter the country and tell the officer that I am here on holiday and not to mention flying at all. IFTA says they will send me paperwork that will get me though Immigration. When I ask about Visas they all tell me to opposite of what the U.S. Embassy told me.

This really makes me wonder what is going on?

TTF

[GoneWest]

Makes you wonder why OFT have just bought out a US Part 141 school - in an attempt to transfer the visa approval that the school held into their own name.

They know, damned well, that you need a visa - they just can't give you one at the moment, so they lie to you in the hope that you will still try it.

Some people get away with it - some don't....and they get arrested and held until the aircraft they arrived on is ready to take them straight back.

And of course they have an immigration officer stamp in their passport - that says (words to the effect of) "Entry to the United States refused".

['I' in the sky]

Time To Fly,
When you spoke to the Embassy did you feel they actually understood the principles of only an organisation being acredited as a school being able to provide visas and that only a school with Part141 approval could be accredited in that way ?

Did you think maybe you weren't quite getting through to them or that you were and they were just dismissing the argument anyway ?

I just wondered what it was that made you dismiss IFTA's argument which you had previously accepted ?

Have you actually followed it up with IFTA since speaking to the Embassy ?

Has anyone who has taken up or is thinking of taking up the IFTA offer actually seen the letter of explanation they received from the INS ? Personally I would rather have a copy of this to present at the Port of Entry than just a letter from the school.

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

If you look back further in this post I actually called for this, however, nothing was posted or sent. You would think that if there was a special offer by the INS then this letter would be posted all over the joint by those schools who do not have visa approval and therefore advocate that you do not need one.

One would then question "if" there was such a letter with a "special offer" why some repuatable and successful flight schools have closed down. I know in one instance a school that was consistently full, providing excellent training, but refused to put their students in jeopardy at the Immigration gate.

I ask again to those schools (IFTA for one) that talk the talk re a special offer, let's see this from the INS and we can put this discussion to bed! That's if you have it in writing:rolleyes:

[Time to Fly]

'I' in the sky

You asked if I thought the U.S. Embassy understood the rules. It is their job to understand the rules. They were excellent explaining exactly what I would need to enter the U.S.

If it involves an airplane and you are training for any licence you need to have a visa. Let me quote what I said before:

If it is on U.S. soil and it involves training in a contraption with wings, you must have a visa. It does not matter if it is with Flight Safety International in Florida or from an eskimo teaching out of his igloo in Alaska. If you are flight training you must have a visa.

That seems very clear to me. Why not give the chaps a jingle at 0207 499 9000 and you tell us if you think they, as you put it, "actually understood the principles".

TTF

['I' in the sky]

Time to Fly.

I know it is their job to understand the rules and I wasn't trying to be funny. However I do know from experience that depending on what level of officialdom you are dealing with they can tend to use stock answers to what they have previously considered stock situations. If you are trying to present a set of circumstances which are, or at least you feel maybe slightly different then you really have to drive it home before they are likely to budge from their stock answer.

This statement is not meant as an accusation of incompetence or any other measure of disrespect, just an observation of dealing with organisations who have to deal with large numbers of apparently similar enquiries.

Accepting that the embassy is correct then it does seem that IFTA have either been misinformed by INS at Miami or that they have blatantly published a piece of grossly dishonest misinformation. Surely something somewhere has to give. That is why I asked if any customers or potential customers had actually been able to see anything which IFTA had received in writing from the INS.

A similar parallel occurred back in 1997/1998 at a school in Florida teaching primarily CAA licences. Instructors and students were all assured by the owner/CFI that it was perfectly legal for students to for CAA PPL licences to fly solo without the normal signoffs from FAA instructors as they were training for CAA licences. The instructors were very uncomfortable with the situation as they believed that the only way a student without a licence could legally fly an N reg aircraft in US airspace was as a FAA student pilot with the appropriate sign offs. There was no seperate provision as far as they could see for different types of training. The owner/CFI however insisted that when he had set up CAA training courses at Flight Safety International previously the FAA had granted an exemption. It was difficult to see that someone would blatantly operate illegaly in this matter yet when the **** eventually hit the fan and people needed evidence of said exemptions, yes you guessed it, there was nothing.

It is also possible to get different interpretations of the rules from within the same organisation. eg It is the FAA's job to know the FARs and yet I have known different FSDOs give different interpretations of the same regulation. Obviously only one could be correct yet it is their job to know the rules.

So it is still feasible that there could be a difference in interpretation of the INS rules between the INS in Miami and the Embassy in London.

The main point I am sure you will appreciate by now is that it would be unwise to take an assurance from the school at face value and to insist on a copy of their communications with the INS.

[GoneWest]

However - following on from the posting above - it is interesting to note that the guy who says he has an exemption from current INS regulations (but will not publish documentation to prove it) is the same guy that set up the CAA courses at Flight Safety and said he had an exemption from the FAA about needing to follow Federal Regulations (but had no documentation to prove it).

Both stories - same guy. Sounds a little fisher to...sorry...sounds a little fishy, to me.

[Gin Slinger]

Fatty F......

['I' in the sky]

Same one indeed.

It might be interesting to copy the page from his website to the INS in Miami and to the embassy, just to seek clarification you understand.

Hmmm, guess what I'm doing tomorrow.

[3db]

Just to advise the visa regulations have changed again. From 11 September 2002 all applicants for F, J, & M Visa’s have to be registered on a new database called ISEAS. The sponsoring flight school does this. As the database is new and not fully implemented yet, as an interim arrangement until 11 October 2002, the flight school could email the relevant consular (in my case London) and they would add your name to the database for the flight school. From 12 September 2002, it had to be completed by the flight school. According to the flight school I want to attend, Immigration and Naturalization Service in Florida are estimating it will be another 7 to 10 days before they are on-line. In the meantime, they still can’t all see the song sheet in my view.

I’ve had 2 rejections entered in my passport so-far. The flight school sent my I-20 to me on 28 August and it will be another 10 days before I can be registered on the database. That’s 2 months to get nowhere. If my experience is typical, you should allow at least 3 months for the visa process, maybe longer. Anyone in the UK got a US visa for flight training in the last 2 months?

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Sorry to hear about your experience; luckily for others this is not a norm.

From my contact in London US Embassy, they are almost caught up with this new program. The total process from receipt of the paperwork is 14 days (not just business days). This is as long as all runs smoothly.

The ISEAS caught everyone by surprise as they seemed to forget to let the schools know:rolleyes: However, now that everything is known again, all is running smoothly:)

[AndyGB]

I sent my application forms off to the embassy on the 12th September and got my passport back last Friday (11th). I don't know if this length of time is normal, as I had fallen foul of a flight school telling me I didn't need a visa so ended up being turned back from Orlando back in June, so I might have warranted extra checking.

Also, the embassy website wasn't updated with the information about ISEAS until the 13th; and it was purely by luck that I noticed the new information but that was about two weeks after I had sent in my application. So I had to quickly get the school to send an email to the embassy to ensure my application didn't get refused because of that.

[3db]

Facts Not Fiction pls & AndyGB

Thanks for your replies. Seems I have either been very unlucky, maybe the US don't want to see me anymore:( or maybe I should change flight schools. I'll see how it pans out.

Thanks again.

[AndyGB]

When you do get your visa check the expiry date. I thought mine had been cocked up because it expired 4 days after I planned on arriving. I thought it had to be valid all the time you are training but apparently not, see the email below.

Facts not fiction - is your contact at the embassy in the IT operations side of things ?


From: London-Consular
To: 'Andy'
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: M1 Visa Error


The period of validity of your visa relates to the period of time during which you, as the holder may travel to the U.S. and apply for admission at a Port of Entry (POE); it does not determine the length of stay. This is a decision made by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) at the POE.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: M1 Visa Error


Hello

I recently applied for an M1 visa from yourselves and have just received my passport back with the visa inside.

Having checked the visa there is an error, in that the expiration date is down to be the 12th of November, which is just 4 days after I arrive in the US for a 4 week course.

I believe the error has occured when the dates were taken from the I-20 form provided by my flight school. In the answers to question 5 they have put that I will report to them not later than the 11/11/02 and will complete my studies no later than the 12/11/02, these being in american date format (mm/dd/yy), not british.

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

I am confused as to your question re IT, however, can offer the following advice:

All students that I am aware of have received from Immigration on entering the US, a visa valid until one month after the course completion date listed on the I-20M-N form (yellow M1 visa application form). This date, that is stamped in their passport and on the I-94 (White form) entry form, is the legal date that the student may stay until for training in the US. Effectively, the separated I-94 stub becomes their legal proof to be eligible to stay and train in the US.

This extra month allows for any overun of courses.

As for your particular situation, I am certain that as you had been turned around at the border once, you were thoroughly checked out leading to the longer turn around time for your Visa. ON top of this, Summer prooves to be extremely busy for Visa applications and therefore generally take longer.

[AndyGB]

facts not fiction pls

Sorry to have confused you. It's just that I also have a 'contact' in the embassy and he works in the IT dept. there. I thought it might have been the same person.

Andy