FAA to JAA ATPL????

[monument]

As the JAA is in such a mess at the moment and nobody knows what to study for ground school etc etc i was thinking of training in the US or OZ and then converting to a JAA license in a year or two?

Is this a good idea? Would i need to do more JAA exams when i get back, such as ground school and CPL and IR???

Thanks for your help, i just want to beat JAR cos i think things won't get settled down here for a few years or until we get out of the EU!!

Any ideas or comments?

[Dizzy]

Monument,

I am going to do the States thing and have done a fair bit of research thus far!
I love the UK, but it seems like we're our own worst enemies in the aviation industry here. Everyone I've spoken to who has been to the States recommends their system (although it pays to be cautious at some flying institutions out there).
If you e-mail me, maybe we can natter about it more freely. I'm hoping to depart Stateside later this year.

[D-Wolf]

Hi there..
I am also going to the states this summer to get some flight training. More precise the CPL ME. I have investigated alot of things, but you never know if you missed something, so drop me a line please.

[rolling circle]

monument - The hard fact is that you would have to do all of the JAA exams when you got back, including the CPL and IR flight tests.

If, however, you were to gain an ICAO ATPL and >500 hours experience in a multi-crew type, you would be exempt any mandatory training but would still have to pass all of the ground exams and the ATPL flight test.

Talks started last year between the JAA and FAA concerning an arrangement for mutual recognition of licences. Unfortunately, they have recently broken down and there is no estimate as to when they might re-start. When they do, the best estimate is that it will take a further two years before any agreement is reached.

The conclusion is that you would be wasting time and money following your intended route. By all means build hours in the US where flying is cheap but don't bother with their licences and ratings, the JAA clearly think they are worthless.

Before the flack starts, the above opinion is not mine but is clearly the JAA's.

You can always do some of your JAA training in the US and take advantage of their relatively weak currency. Make sure, however, that the school you choose is approved for JAA training. There are a lot of rip-off merchants that side of the pond who will lie through their back teeth to get your money. Before you decide on a school, check their status out with the CAA - contrary to the dozens of adverts in the aviation press, there are only three schools in the US currently approved for modular JAA training.

[monument]

would you mind telling which 3 schools in the US are JAA approved for the modular route?

Thanks

[sd]

I can only find 2

http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_approvedftos.pdf

You will, I think, have to do ground school in the UK

[fw190dora]

I am also thinking of going stateside to do a CPL/ME and will eventually end up in OZ.

Anyone know if thhere is there a huge difference between the FAA and the CASA requirements ?

[Dookie]

I did my CPL/IR in the states and am now converting to JAA frozen ATPL.
You pretty much have to do it all again (excluding flying hours)so plan your training carefully between the states for hour building and the UK for the relevant theory and exams. The US schools can be sharks so do your homework, dont ask them for advice cause they'll just tell you what you want to hear. I heard Anglo American aviation in San Diago are JAA approved but havent been there.
Be especialy careful of the IR as the US IR pretty much counts for zero in the UK, or so they all tell me.
try www.becomeapilot.fsnet.co.uk (http://www.becomeapilot.fsnet.co.uk) and www.pilotassist.com (http://www.pilotassist.com) they have some good advice.
good luck, and dont let all the BS get you down, chin up and go for it !

[rolling circle]

US Schools approved for modular training, as of 31 December 2000:

International Flight Training Academy - CPL(A), IR(A), FI(R), MEP
Pan Am Flight Academy Inc. - CPL(A), IR(A), MEP
Naples Flight Center - MEP

In addition, Western Michigan University are approved for Integrated ATPL(A) and CPL(A)

There may be other organisations in course of approval but, w.e.f. 31 January, the CAA will not accept training from any organisation until it is fully approved (i.e. it actually has, in its posession, a certificate of approval).

[tshaibani]

I think we're all on the same boat ride. I'm already in the states, but still trying to figure out what is best. To not type in the same comments I did in the other topic, I suggest you all just go there and read what others have to say. It's: FAA vs. JAA license. You'll actually learn what I learnt from other pilots in training in the UK.

[G-LOC]

When dealing with american flight schools the golden rules are;
1. Never pay in advance!(Pay-as-you-go)
2. Cheap is good, as long as you study way beyond the sylabus.
3. Do your US training as quickly as possible.

Good luck.

[Bomber Harris]

Monument,
the advice from rolling circle is top class. Everything he/she says is correct. However, let me tell you the same thing with a different slant.

I did my training in the states but I got an FAA CPL/Multi/IR. My logic was that if I was to go out there for hour building, why not pay the few extra grand and sit all the exams. Basically it cost me about $14k US for about 120 hours (which brought me to the 250 mark)for the full monty (FAA CPL/IR/Multi) including accomodation and beer. Then I came back and landed out 2k GBP for ground school for the 14 writtens. At this point you have to do "an amount to be determined by the flight training school" in prep for your JAA GFT. As they are all looking for customers you can get a feel for what they want to do in advance by thrashing it out with the head of training. I found that about 10 hours for the CPL in a single and about 15 in a Multi for Multi IR rating is sufficient after the US training. If they tell you that you will have to repeat the whole IR and do 50 hours CPL prep because the FAA system is so inferior, then they are out to screw you....so smile and walk out the door and try the next school. This training should work out at about another 6 or 7 K GBP including written test fees (not inc the 2k for gnd school). Maybe there is a cheaper way to do it but I found it worked out well for me.

You can do this in the states in about 3 months then it will take about 6 months to get though the UK rubbish after you get back (that raises a few questions in itself!!!). The nice thing about it is that your visit to the states is focused i.e. on gaining your FAA lic. This is better than hour building by flying a 152 until the tank is empty and then filling up and starting all over again....bloody mind numbing.

However, the big irony of the whole thing is that I got my first job as an F/O on an N reg corporate jet! (ooops...shouldn't be here cos I'm not a wannabe...).

So basically the FAA training and lic wasn't worth didlysquat to me (as rolling circle said)when I got back, but only in technical terms. But I was experienced at doing GFT's, my flying skills were honed and I had a ticket which got me a job. For a few extra grand.....I recommend it. This is just another slant on a very complicated issue....good luck with your training.

Bomber

[monument]

So in effect a person could go to the US with a CAA PPL and train for the FAA CPL/IR at a Us school and work there as an instructor for a year or two. to build about 1500 hours, then tghey could come back and do 6months of JAR ground school crap, about 25 hours flying and have a JAR ATPL and an FAA ATPL.

Sounds like a bloody good way to beat the system for a few years while earning a good few hours and getting two ATPL licences!

I'm going to have to explore this a bit further. Whats the chances of getting a job in the US as an instructor? Is a visa easy to get? How much will it cost to get a FAA CPL/IR and instructor ratiing with just a basic PPL at the moment, and how long will it take?

Thanks for your help guys

:)

[Bomber Harris]

You got it in one!!

Before you do anything ring around the schools in the UK. Let me give you a tip. If you say "I am thinking of going to the US" then they will spend all their time talking you out of it. Say "I have just come back from the US" and describe the experience level you want to get yourself to out there. Then ask "what can you do for me". This way you get it from the horses mouth and don't have to believe old Bomber here. THEN start researching US schools. A good place to start for links is www.landings.com (http://www.landings.com) They have tons of links to schools. Most have prices on the net so you can work it out for yourself. I recommend actually ringing them and having a chat, this will give you a good feel for whats on offer.

Now since your interested I better explain what I brushed off as "6 months crap". You have to do a modular course if you a holder of an ICAO but non-JAA lic. The normal time for this course is 650hours of training. The scool I went to told me this meant I had to wait 8 months before I could apply for the last exams (7 after 4 months and 7 more on the 8th month) HOWEVER as an ICAO lic holder with an IR this was reduced to a total of 4 months (7 after 2months and the final 7 after another 2 months). Remember, this is a home study course I was doing so it's all complete crap. They were tellming me the minimum time I would need to study. However, allowing for exam dates not aligning with the end of the 2 months and the odd resit, it will take about 6 months. So the timing I quoted is merely to fill the JAA requirements as interpreted by a particular scool. After you get the exams you will need to sign up for a few weeks intensive traing for the GFT preps. This again is open to interpretation as to how much flying you need so....SHOP AROUND. From a practical point of view you will need some. I know some people were told that their IR training is not recognised and they would have to repeat it. I didn't, so this is rubbish. I just had to get proficient in their aircraft at their airport....makes sense to me.

So do your home work well and do the costs and factor in as much variables as you can so there will be no suprises.

Glad to be of help

[Bomber Harris]

sorry missed a couple of your questions.

The schools will answer all however here are some guide lines for times in the US

IR 4 weeks (45 hours realistically)
MULTI/COMM 3 weeks (25 hours realistically)
Instructor Rating 2 weeks (dunno hours)
Hour building - allow that you can fly about 6 hours a day - any more will kill you

chances of getting a job instructing in US are very very high but most schools will want a work permt of some description. You can get sponsored by some schools. You will need to get an immigration lawyer to process your application to be sure it will work. My lawer said it would cost between 2 to 4 k USD to get it through.

[monument]

Thanks Bomber,

do those time you quoted include the ground school. I mean you say 4 weeks for the IR. Does this include the ground exams? Of not, what is the equivelent of the 6months JAR crap. How long will that take?

Thanks for your help

[Sheep Guts]

Bomber,
You have given an interesting account of your experiences in the U.S. and conversion etc. Did the fact of you having an FAA Licence help with getting the" N "reg jet job? Just curious as I am in the same boat have US ATP and Aussie CPL ME/CIR and a British Subject.
Are there many " N " reg jobs in the U.K.? I appologise if this is side tracking this thread.

------------------
Props are for boats!Unless its a Kingair.

[eject]

Bomber,

I am intending to go to the US in May. I have 25 hours done towards PPL and want to build hours to the 150 needed for ATPL exams. What stage were you at when you went to the states and how long did the whole process take?

[Bomber Harris]

sorry about the delay replying....fly my a.s.s off.

The time i gave included ground school. i went to a place (which is not unusual) which does one to one lessons for gnd school. this works out cheaper in the long run cos you skip over everything you already understand. typical costs are about $25us/hr for gnd instruction. the best thing is you can do ALL the studying before you go. i did this so it left lots of time for "socialising" while out there. had a ball. the books are as common as dirt....as are the q's and a's. if you were the really nervous type you could do all the written exams before you left at the local FAA station and just go and fly and drink!!!

it really isn't that big a deal going the US route. the JAA rubbish is the big deal. the exams are full of old rubbish that you don't use when you fly.


monument, you could in theory do the ground school and flying in the time i quoted. many at the school i was at did this but had long evenings in the books. my ground school involved the instructor just checking that i had understood everthing. occasionally she would hit on a subject which i thought i understood but actually had it upside down in my head, so she would just go through it with me. i had about 150 hours when i arrived. but remember you can knock up 50 hours a week in the US if you are just hour building, so don't let that be a barrier

sheep guts, i think you meant to ask something else?? i don't mean to be smart but i often have one thing in my head and type something else. as an atp you know that my FAA had "something" to do with me getting an N reg job. To be curtious i will answer what i think you were asking. The n reg scene in the UK is mainly corporate. no airlines except atlas which will be changing to UK reg i believe. much discussion in main forum. corporate scene is a bit 'closed shop'. i got my start through a close friend which led to the job i'm in now. without jet time you need a very lucky break or a friend to give you a kick start. with about 500 hours or so jet anyone will talk to you seriously. good luck in your search.