x over trg.

[RCOV 2 ENG]

what age can commissioned officers (non pilot) cross over 'til they are deemed too old to be suitable? , and is this the same for air engs' and the like?

back seater wanting to be front seater!

[Audax]

Over the past few years, several guys 30+ have transferred to the front seat. In the very recent past, 2 guys over 35 have graduated from Linton and are going to Valley---hope that helps.

[CSASdriver]

Ah I see,

"Typhoon Pilot Wanted", young talented pilots need not apply. 35yr+ old Navs send your applications to........

Ofcourse it makes sense; It's easier to teach a Nav to fly, than it is to teach a pilot to work a radar. Probably cheaper too...


CSAS

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

CSAS:eek:

Of course it makes sense; It's easier?..... to teach a Nav to fly, than it is to teach a pilot to work a radar. Probably cheaper too...

What utter tosh...........if it were true why are there not loads of our spatialy unaware brethren crossing over? Lets face it the reason they are not actually flying is cos they can't ......for what ever reason so please don't try to kid us here.

I just love the "J".......no guy stinking of p**s in the corner and no guy, having not been able to identify a single town on the radar for 7 hours, telling us all he has Swindy parts on the screen 50 miles out from home......wonder how he does that....go figure

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Cooperman]

Always-Broken-In-Wilts,

soon to be called:

Nose-Broken-By-Navigator........and rightly so you ignorant fool of a pilot.:mad:

a pilot so able there has to be another one in the same cockpit to share the 'workload'.......go figure!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I love to see a young man mixing ambition with abilty:rolleyes:

1st........I am not a pilot, I wish I was but I am not good enough...........and I'm far too old:)

2nd......By f@@k am I glad I have 2 pilots and not 1 pilot and
90 kgs of excess baggage.......phew:D

3rd......It's actually an aircraft so well designed that they have removed the seating for all the white noise, who normally stink of p@@s and replaced it with automation.........seems we are finally learning from the civvy world.

4th......As your "gang" gets smaller my "gang" gets bigger so who's laughing now.................so can I have a shake with my big mac meal SIR!!!!!!

Somedays I love my job:D

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[CSASdriver]

Dear Mr "Broken -in -Wilts"

I have one word for you sir.........."Irony"

Rather pleasingly though, it has made me laugh that you have been so easily "Outed" as a rather foolish C130 Loadie or Mover, with little or no regard for Navigators.

I too am not a Navigator, but I respect what they do, and know how important they are, particularly in the Fin! They may smell of pish sometimes! but don't we all (After a certain age!.....Cooperman, you listening?) They have helped me out of many a "Square Corner", usually after diverting, and being the one with a wallet!

So, HERE'S TO NAVs!!! I Love Em....but couldn't eat a whole one.


CSAS

[Cooperman]

Indeed, the last 3 posts were from non-Nav types but it is clear that 2 of us realise the true worth of a (good) nav.

I'm amazed that ABIW's post hasn't caused a tidal wave of angry replies from our nav bretheren.

Then again, maybe they couldn't find their way to the thread...

:D

As for you CSAS, regards.....hope you're having fun. Got to go now, my bag's gettin' a bit full............phiew, what's that smell?

[difar69]

To ABIW,
You have confirmed the rest of the RAF's opinion of the Loadmaster branch. Well done. I'm sure you're huge Loadie brain will be able to figure that one out. Such masters of the skys. I wish I'd worked harder at school and I could have been a truckie too.

I invite you to come up to Lossie or Kinloss and spout the groundless tosh you've have been posting to the Navs up here. You'll be heading back to Lyneham, with little more than your head in a jar, which means you'll still be able to do your fantastically difficult job.

[TURD]

Always Broken,
You've obviously had your head up your rear cargo door for the last three years since a whole troop load of "Spatially Unaware" have crossed over the vast majority successfully ( thought not all) so stick to eating pies and scratching the paintwork on tax free cars

[flipster]

Always Broken in Wiltshire (aka Foot in Mouth in Wiltshire),

Firstly, this forum is not the place for personal vitriollic attacks.

Secondly, you have done a great disservice to our Navigator brothers-in-arms who have served, and continue to serve, with professionalism, pride and distinction.

Thirdly, comments such as yours disgrace the uniform you wear and they have, undoubtedly, embarrassed ALL Hercules aircrew- J and K, RAF Lyneham and the Service as a whole. An apology would be most appropriate and go some way to repair the damage you have caused.

Lastly, I don't care what ac you fly/load/service - we all are meant to be on the same side! So in future, keep your less worthy thoughts to yourself.

Flipster :mad: :mad: :mad:

ps If you are a 'stirrer' and enjoy winding us up - please desist and GET A LIFE!

[LunchMonitor]

I dont apologise for others in my trade, that is their problem and their duty once they sober up and realise what asses they have made of themselves.
What I can do is point out that there are many LMs who appreciate and understand (and when the situation demands are capable of carrying out) the roles that other aircrew specialisations fulfill.
Banter is healthy, slagging for the sake of it, particularly on a public forum does nothing except drag down our image and reputation in the outside world. So lets save the harsh banter for the confines of our own beercalls.......

[day1-week1]

Now this thread has been through the familar cycle of 'reasonable question - banter - branch slagging - personal slagging - 'don't tarnish us....brush' rebuff - somber reflection', has anyone actually got any info on recov 2 eng not unreasonable question?

[The Gorilla]

FB

"Withering on the vine" mate.

Last I heard some guys will get to go Loadie with full re- badging and loadie terms of service.

Others will be offered "other" jobs. No redundancy package available. That said of course, the new Air Eng less aircraft aren't arriving on time. In the case of the A400M fiasco, will never arrive at all!! :p

Depending on who you talk to, our branch is currently:
Over manned, under manned, on manning, likely to achieve manning in 2005 but to be in surplus by 2006!!!!!:D

I suspect that the Air Eng branch will be left out of the FRI!

:)

RCOV2 Don't know the ansa but will try and find out for you.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Is it safe for me to venture out of my Chippenham front door, bearing in mind I have now been outed as a Loadie.... I wonder.............:confused:

Firstly for those I have offended with my obviously off target attempt at banter I ............god I hate to say it........I apologise:rolleyes:

However in my defence, bearing in mind "thicky M'c thick" the loadie normally has no original ideas of his/hers own the sentiment mentioned on Nav's hygiene was stolen from many of the pilots currently on the might "J". A straw poll of 24/30 pilots as to what they least miss from the "K" will confirm this.

However I cannot believe that I have been offered so much physical violence by my peers. But I will attempt to address each point in turn.

CSAS

Prior to fixed wing, and 14 years as a techie, I spent 3 tours rotary where the flying was as much fun as you could have with your clothes on:D I met some super people even tho' most of them stole my job.................that's humour.:p And I am on record as saying that Nav's were a definate step in the right direction for Puma Op's so please do not assume I hate all of them.

Cooperman

Whats your secret, Sir, as there are is not a long list of "ombre's" out for your blood

difar69

What is the rest of the RAF's opinon of ALM's:confused: Bearing in mind we are about the fastest growing branch, with lots of remustering going on, are we still percieved as that bad? Crikey even Air eng's seeing the writing on the wall are looking at re-badging so ALM can't be that bad.

Turd

Your comments match your handle

Flipster

I am a "stirrer", I do enjoy a wind up and I do have a life:p

LM

Please don't apologise on my behalf as I appear to have already done it. I'm still under the influence but I am not an ass.......well that's my opinion. It was meant as banter and not as slagging and I have tried to make this clear at the top of this post.


all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

PS Ext 7371 and ask for Joe should anyone feel the need for boxing gloves:cool:

[EnnArr]

As Lord Flash-Heart has already suggested: Contact your desk officer he/she (should) be able to give you advice. I was 29 when I got my x-over (completed successfully might I add) and have heard of much older ex bretheren successfully crossing to the former dark side!

If you are, as you say, a back seater wanting to jump in the front, ask other members of your sqn, there are bound to be a couple of ex navs sitting in the front office there.

;)

[BEagle]

Yes - do listen to the advice provided by Lord F. For he was also a food powered checklist reader/ FMS operative until "Dear Lawd - he seen de light" and transferred to the 2WMR. Did a tour as a co-piglet and is now on a Captain's course. So IT CAN BE DONE!!

PS - Dear Brenda. As I saved you huge amounts of wonga by training Lord F to be a pilot instead of the RAF doing that, how about a bung? 10% for having trained him to PPL level would do for starters........ And we'd repay him for his training. Honest...

[Dunhovrin]

Personally I'm with Broken-Wilts on this. WIWOP nothing used to pss me off more than having a nav go a gooder landing than wot I done.

I don't know if it's still happening in the rotary-tary world but about 5 years ago a bunch of directional consultants all re-roled to TWMR and all did very well.

I'm not courting controvery by saying that an awful lot of pilot training depends on your capacity and situational awareness. Anytime spent woring in the air can only benefit. Ask a certain ex-crewmanleader, ex-QHNI, JP out on half-two.

[Chris Kebab]

Funny after decades of being taken to all sorts of luvverly places I always thought that smell of pish and cr@p at the back-end of a Herc was the Elsan. I now discover that it was in fact when Always Bleating In Wilts, or Joe it appears, was on the crew as the talking freight.

You really come across as a saddo mate. Thread after thread of Loadie bile against navs really does reinforce an unfortunate stereotype. I suspect I have flown far more sorties than you with a nav (sorties mate NOT pointless "on the bunk" hours) and all bar a few have been professional good guys doing a first rate job. Those who have re-roled to the front seat on FJs have generally been bloody good - so why don't you just STFU and stop making loadies come across as a bunch of sad old losers.

"Loadie going off intercom" as I hear you guys regularly say (as well as other aviation terms such as: anyone for breakfast yet; cup of tea Captain; and pretty please can I sit on the bunk for take-off) - FO and don't come back must surely be the thought in most minds when you're on the crew.

I'll keep my eyes open and say hello next time you trundle me down route somewhere in a J - can't be that many with the name Joe Nobber under a LM brevet. But then again!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oh dear another offer for some boxing......it's looking as if I had better stay at home as it's not safe to go out:p

CK have you ever.................no it's too easy

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

PS Nobber is Flt Lt and a captain whilst I'm not.......attention to detail please:D

[Shouting Rad-Alt]

Kebab,

Other phrases you might just hear from the LM

A Cat NVG "Lights on" "Pull up!!!"

"Actually, I think we are hear!"

So on etc

Its a crew thing.......

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oh Loud One,
Nice one matey and as an ex HTI I know exactly where you are coming from. But bearing in mind the whole reason AT and SH fly from a to b is not for the enjoyment of the WHOLE crew but to take the contents of "said beast" to where it wants to be, which takes the WHOLE crew, you have to wonder what on earth CK etc are on about. However please please please lets not let this degenerate into a "my seats more important than yours" bun fight.

I had a pretty good go at making my piece with those I had offended by apologising and stating my case towards the top of this page, it was only banter and I apologise AGAIN :eek:

But a look through my obvious bad taste here and anywhere I else I have pruned and I cannot remember a case where I felt the need to "offer someone outside", albeit through some witty alias. Not even here where the slander aimed at all ALM's because of MY comments is totally undeserved. have I or my colleagues been reduced to that.

I make a sweeping assumption in that those making said offer on here are in fact from the offended branch and if so surely as commisioned officers you should be able to "anti banter" me with out all these rather foolish threats of physical violence, after all as you have pointed out I am only a thick loadie..................lets hope jacko is not taking notes:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[CSASdriver]

This topic is really brightening up, my otherwise dull life!

I am interested though, Who does have the most important seat in the Herk role?

Hmmmm, tricky. Pilots? No, not really. Loadie? Closer? actually, I think it probably isn't anyone in the crew at all. Since the purpose of the craft is to deliver something, somewhere, it follows that the recipient of the "Something" is the most important chap; As without the requirement for the "Thing" there is no role at all!

Funny old world isn't it?

I still like Navs though (Purely in a professional sense, you understand!) I'd be interested if Mr Broken has a different view.

Regards to all,

CSAS

[TURD]

Always Broken
Based on your knowledge of Towed Radar Decoy or TURD I still intend to reserve one of my shiny new ASRAAMs for you
Or don't you understand that acronym:confused:

[Biggus]

Always Broken

Oh where to start. First of all I AM A NAV! I have also done several tours on Alberts, which I only say to establish my crediblity - or probably lack of it in your eyes. Oh yes, and I do not stink of ****!!

As to your comments..

"..why are there not loads of our spatialy unaware brethren crossing over?....."

You may be interested to know that the nav to pilot crossover has been stopped because we are now shorter of fast jet navs than fast jet pilots, and in the bit of the RAF I am now in lots of navs did/tried to cross over! Maybe some of the guys at Lyneham settled for staying in Wiltshire.

"....no guy stinking of **** in the corner...."

You pass this off as banter. It seems to be an excuse used by lots of people these days (like "A Civilians" comments on another thread, wishing lots of aircrew would die in the next Gulf War, being excused as "just banter") for writing any insulting crap you like and then justifying it or attacking anybody who criticises what you have written. "Can't you take some banter, etc.." Grow up and welcome to the real world!

".. not being able to identify a single town on the radar for 7 hours, telling us all he has Swindy parts on the screen 50 miles out from home...."

Well yes I could find Swindon on the radar, and Goole in training on Dominies (and lots of radar fixes - Corby etc), and in a Herc I could find Akrotiri, Ali al Salem, Goose Bay, Gander, Gib, Bath, Dusseldorf, Pristina.... The list goes on. When I was on the fleet it was a sort of standing joke to announce the finding of Swindon on the way back in, a sort of ritual. MAYBE IT WAS BANTER!!! The radar in the transit was generally left at a tilt so that it was looking for Weather rather than mapping the ground!!! If there was no weather about it was used in ground map to help in the approach to the field. Maybe if you knew more about what the nav was doing, instead of just taking the ****....

".. they have removed the seating for all the white noise, who normally stink of **** and replaced it with automation..."

When I first started at Lyneham there was no such thing as GPS, and you crossed major oceans (other than the Atlantic) using just doppler and astro. Today all the navs at Lyneham know/knew that in terms of route flying their job could easily be replaced by modern avionics. But it was not installed so they remained. Does that make them any less of human beings that you feel free to insult them!!

"As your "gang" gets smaller my "gang" gets bigger..."

So the ALM branch is getting bigger in size, that doesn't necessarily mean they are getting more important, just that we need more of them!!

Most of the people who defended navs in reply to your tosh were actually non navs, why? One good reason is that navs are used to having the **** taken out of them, the instructors start it in training to toughen up the studes. We have heard them all before, from the FJ pilot who says he would rather have the fuel (your 90 kg comment was not original), to the "no daughter of mine will marry a nav", and even the Aussie CSRO who says the Aussie's have navs in F-111s to give the sharks something to eat while the pilot swims to safety. Your could start a whole thread of nav jokes, and we would have heard most of them before. So your comments were nothing special. I would not even have bothered to write all this if I wasn't on Pprune to add a serious comment on another thread!!

I think "flipster" gave a pretty good reply to your drivel. I enjoyed my time on Hercs. It was a good size crew, and I got on with most people and repected them for their ability and the wings/brevet they wore. On threads a while ago a chap called "Flaps 62" (I think) wrote some rather withering stuff about airmen aircrew and retention bonus's. I nearly wrote in reply saying I had worked with airman aircrew for years, and they were some of the most professional and hardworking people I had ever met, often more competent than the officers. Maybe I was mistaken.The likes of yourself just play into the hands of people like Flaps 62.

Yes you have apologised, but might it not have been better to say nothing in the first place. I presume from you comments you did some time on a Herc Sqn with K model, did you tell the navs on the Sqn then what you thought of them?? If so how did they repond?

Anybody who flys with me professionally desrves my respect just for passing the training system and being there, and if it all goes wrong we will all be in the mire TOGETHER!

I suggest you grow up, given your age that is unlikely, or shut up!! I do not intend to start trading "comments" with you, so this is my one and only inject on this matter (I hope!)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Good grief:rolleyes: .....you f@@k one sheep:D

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced