Oxford for £lots or U.S. for £lots + extras?

[davidanthonylucas]

I am planning to start training for ATPL in the New Year and am currently deciding on the best place to study.

I have narrowed my search to 2 options but my problem (amongst others) is that I don't know what will put me best placed for a job at the end of it (me and everyone else :( ). My options are:

1. Pay £lots and go to Oxford and graduate with the good name that accompanies Oxford,

...or...

2. Pay £lots to go to the U.S. (CommAir + Atlantic Flight Training) to do full-time modular PPL + ...etc... + ATPL and still have enough money left over for flight instructor rating and type training on, e.g., a 737.

So: which one puts me in the best position for job hunting in summer 2004?

Wisdom welcomed. Thanks.

d.a.l.
:confused:

PS generous sponsorship offers are welcomed too

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

One route will get you a JAA license, the other a FAA one.

Do you have the right to work/live in the US?

If not then the answer is starkly simple.

I suggest you purchase a book on this topic before you continue much further. Clive Hughes or Zero To First Officer are both good general guides.

Good luck,

WWW

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Stateside for you matey.....

Can only assume you maybe have a PPL at the moment.

The fact is Oxford is very expensive, very hyped and being fair very good.

You could certainly fasttrack your training/hourbuilding in the states with the good weather at a very reasonable cost. Whilst you are there I would suggest you get a twin rating and 20-30 hours P1 in a twin (any old twin) as multi P1 time is something I am short of right now.....let me explain.

Assuming you go and get qualified come back and do an instructrors rating, should employment prospects still be cr@p after an amount of time you may wish to upgrade to being an IRI/Multi instructor, at which point this Multi p1 time will come in handy.

I very much enjoyed flying in the states, its a little ill disciplined but doesnt necessarily have to be so.

This isn't careers advice but if you do go to the states I would suggest you do the above and get that particular tick in the box (amongst others).

PPl instructors get £6 ph CPL/IR/Multi instructors get £60!!

Theres a lot to see in Florida......

[Piper Warrior Pilot]

One thing ive noticed about US FTO's is that they dont give you a PRICE. They seem to add bits here and bits there.

So Oxford PPL, CPL etc... would cost about 50,000 GBP. Correct?

What about the same training with comair?

[Julian]

Have you considered EFT in Florida?

They will put you through the JAA modules - and the prices are on the website :)

[davidanthonylucas]

Thanks for the replies.

WWW: The CommAir / Atlantic Fight Training course in US is JAA and I am assured that visas can be arranged for the training.

PWP: The breakdown I have of prices compare as follows:

1. Oxford ab initio integrated APTL = £63,500 inc VAT

2. CommAir equivalent full time modular APTL = US$47,100 i.e. about £32k
The MCC and IR bit is in UK (at Coventry presumably).
Bear in mind also that cost of living and sun tan opportunities are better in Florida than Oxfordshire.

Quite a difference eh? I could do US and still have £ left over to buy my own plane and start my own airline (now there's an idea).

So is the good name of Oxford really that good? i.e. £30k worth of good?


I hear what you're saying about ME hours - wise words. So is it stating the obvious to say that good hours = better job prospects?

Enough for now. I'm off to investigate EFT.

d.a.l.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yeah, and try finding someone who has been to the US, got the visas, done one of these programs and had a JAA license issued.

If it worked then all European FTO's would be empty and they aren't.

WWW

[freeborn1]

The news is this.

You can train in the US for far less than in the UK.

Before Comair started doing it NO-ONE could offer the training that they now are and have the opportunity of a job.

I spoke to them last week and they have 11 people already enrolled in the program 0 - ATPL and places are filling quickly.

Visa's require the correct documentation to be filled out, which COMAIR also take care of.

To conclude: WHY FLY IN THE UK?

One happy to be flying in the US, UK pilot

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I can't see the French for one allowing the UK CAA to approve a £32,000 JAA ATPL course in the US for long. This time next year the EU wouldn't have a commercial FTO still in business.

WWW

[freeborn1]

Even if the French complain, and even if they do get the licencing pulled, anyone who does go over to the USA will at least save themselves 20000 pounds, and get HOURS that will help them when it comes to an intertview!!!!!

Lets all be a little bit more open minded to the possibilty of there being more in the world of flight training than the "UK BIG 2"!!!!!

Also, the FTO's in the UK are quiet anyway!!!!!

Somone who has seen both sides of the fence!!!!!

[G-SPOTs Lost]

What you need is a mixture

If you are British you need a JAA License to work in the EU.....

Should you not be restricted cash wise then this is what I would do. This is totally off the top of my head and Ive had a beer.

PPL UK whilst still working - on day of skill test resign
Or to speed things along do an FAA PPL but anglisize it properly upon your return

Hourbuilding UK 15 hours

Ok total time now is 70 hours

launch off to US 80 hours in one month starting on cherokees, progressing to retractable wobbly prop singles, then do a twin rating (within the 80 hours)

Back to blighty

Total time (TT) is now approx 150 hours do residential ATPL exam s at oxford - pass all ATPL exams first time :mad: !!!!!

launch back to US, do a multi - instrument rating after a bit of post ATPL exam R & R

have UK multi/IMC issued on UK ppl

Back to blighty, do CPL course - Pass GFT

Do instructors rating - teach through 1/2 a winter and 1/2 a summer.

back to USA **** through FAA CFI course dead easy (why shortly!)
and 10-12 hours Multi /IR revision with an instructor

back to UK - Multi IR module completed

back to USA - do commercial flight test & 1 ground exam (piece of **** after ATPL's)

So you now have an

FAA CPL/IR with Multi/instructors rating
JAA CPL/IR with an FI (R)

Choice of work is as follows:

Uk Instructor - derestrict FIR and do an IRI/Multi instructors course. Charge £100.00 a go for FAA BFR's in the uk

Public transport job either on air Taxi/ regional or maybe even a 737 :rolleyes:

RHS job in an N tail bizjet logging all that multi IFR turbine time

Subject to Visa's and work permit's etc maybe dissapear to work in the USA either in ops/ferrying airplanes/maybe instructing even 4-5 months of the year

Somebody work out how much Ive just spent Im off to bed

[laurie]

Why does the average Question-asker look first to the US?

I tell you - get your heads into South Africa,
New Zealand and Australia as alternatives.

Do some of your own research. Resist the grand American advertising.

Look around.


And good luck,



Laurie

And (I apologise)

I forgot to mention - fo your research here on pprune first. Whether to do a CPL or Ir in the UK will be important decisions for you.

There are plenty of viewpoints on the above. I suggest you search them out and read them.

Note the recent change in conversion of foreign ICAO IR's but reference that alongside tips from current and senior aircrew that an IR taken in Britain would be the best course.


That's all I'm saying for now!!!


Cheers,

Laurie

[FRIDAY]

G-spots lost idea sounds good to me, I doing something similiar.
Here goes.
JAA/FAA PPL in U.S
JAA ATPL groundschool in U.K
Commence FAA 141 course for FAA ATP with the instructor ratings and get the 1500hrs in the U.S on visa
Do the JAA CPL/FI(r) in U.S or U.K
Do all the IR in U.K with a few hrs excempt due to FAA IR
Do the MCC in U.K
AND THEN

DEMAND MY RHS JOB or throw a hissy fit:rolleyes:
O and nail Nell McAndrew :eek: which would be nice emmmm Nell.

Total cost excluding Nell, hopefully under 80000euro:confused:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

So you are still going to do a UK PPL, CPL and ATPL exams? The saving comes in the hour building phase and that the CAA will let you convert your FAA IR to a JAA one with nothing more than a flight test - yes?

WWW

[mikeo]

Is there an even cheaper option to do hour building / training in Canada? The current CAD to GBP exchange rate makes the flying there look very cheap.

Does anyone know of an JAR approved flight schools in Canada?:confused:

[davidanthonylucas]

Dear all,

Thanks for your views.

The ComAir and AFT partnership offers all elements of modular JAA zero to ATPL in the US. Only modules not in US are completion of Multi-Instrument Rating Course, MCC and FI(r). Even JAA APTL groundschool can be done in US.

So...

Q1: Are airlines in UK predjudiced against US trained pilots (even if training is to JAA standard)?
Q2: What benefit is there to train in UK if I can do it £30k cheaper in US?
Q3: If I can do the FI thing in US after finished ATPL (even for grand ol' $10 p/h) then isn't that a safer bet than having run out of money when I've completed Oxford and not being able to afford to fly (never mind feed myself)?

:confused: So what about EFT - why are they so much better than ComAir?

d.a.l.

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

But that is what Comair is all about....

They are renown for their low paid instructors (was $6.00 p/h couple of years ago) and their high prices. All because they can dangle the Delta connection carrot! And they use that connection well, but this should not be the case for the JAA students as they will not be able to work for the commuter. Therefore you have to ask what do they have over EFT (that offer the full JAA CPL course) or any JAA PPL provider to charge that much more and get away with it?:confused:

[FRIDAY]

For WWW.

In response to your rather smart arsed comments I can only guess was in reply to my idea,(NOT APPRECIATED).
Yes I am doing the JAA PPL (naples) which will be valid in the U.K,
Yes I am doing the ATPL's with ATA coventry following that, which
are valid in the U.K.
Yes I will do a JAA CPL either in the U.K or U.S that will be valid.
AND I was not expecting the CAA to convert the FAA IR,
I will do the "FULL" JAA IR in the U.K.

The only reason I am thinking of also doing the 141 course is to gain the 1500hrs experience, I may in fact just do plenty of twin hour building in stead, I am not sure which would be better.
However I do look to you WWW and others for help and advice,
I could have taken your comments the wrong way but at first glance it seems a bit smug, I give you the benefit of the doubt and hope your just being helpful, as you did get me thinking about spending the cash on another option. I slightly getting sidetracked so I do another thread on FAR 141 or hour building.
WWW;) I am stessed, be gentle.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I said simply this:

So you are still going to do a UK PPL, CPL and ATPL exams? The saving comes in the hour building phase and that the CAA will let you convert your FAA IR to a JAA one with nothing more than a flight test - yes?

How you interpreted this as smart arsed I have no idea. A simpler construction of my query I would struggle to assemble.

The medium lends itself to missunderstanding of tone Friday.

I can't see where the saving comes from. You are still going to do a UK CPL, ATPL exams and IR course as well as their Amercian counterparts. I can see you saving money on the PPL and hour building phase. But the rest of it just seems to be duplication.

Also are you sure you will be able to get visas that will allow you both to train and then to work for a couple of years building those hours?

I know a great many people who have trained for a JAA Frzn ATPL and apart from the inital PPL +100hrs nobody I ever heard of did what you are proposing.

I am not fully up to speed on the new CAA rulings recognising certain foreign IRs such as FAA. Nor am I certain about the recent changes which are allowing experienced pilots from Oz/SA/NZ etc. to come over and convert to JAA at minimal training cost.

I wondered whether these changes might be whats leading you down this path of training for FAA in pursuit of a JAA license.

Cheers,

WWW

[FRIDAY]

Apoligises so www.

The whole idea of going to the states is in the hope of gaining the 1500hrs mark approximately, as an instructor. Of course in the hope I get the J1 visa or M1. I realise the chance of gaining those many hrs in europe whether its as an instructor or hr buliding will be both difficult as there is less FI jobs and expensive for hr building. Since I am going the modular route I felt it better to gain as many hrs as possible, However in the light of what your saying regarding the duplication of training for FAA I guessed it was a good way of getting the hrs but maybe not the best or cost efficient. Could you or anyone else for that matter advise me that maybe twin hr building may be better. 300/400 twin time as compared to 1500hr instruction. :confused:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You are probably unaware that Sept 11th means that being a flying instructor in the US is now akin to saying you are a traffic warden in this. There was massive cancellation of PPL courses which led to many flying instructors being laid off.

As a foreigner working on a limited visa you would have little opportunity of finding instructing or air taxi work in the USA at the moment.

The whole concept is flawed I am afraid. Reading the adverts in the backs of magazines and digesting the blurb these FTO's send you gives a very skewed sense of what will work.

There are perfectly good established flying schools in the UK who can guide you through a modular ATPL for around £35,000. That is the way forward for you I would guess.

Good luck,

WWW

[piperindian]

davidanthonylucas, the real question should be : what are you going to do with a JAR fATPL ?
instruction is nice but pays peanuts (and cheap peanuts !) , most guys cant afford it and right now it will be difficult to find a place anyway.
personnally i would advise a PPL/IFR and a share in an airplane if you enjoy flying but avoid fATPL like the plague, especially at 60K (and 250 flying hours).
The FAA system is better since you build more time for less money and what counts is time in the air (with good instruction and sound theory) but without a green card/US citizenship you are never going to work for a serious outfit.

[Field In Sight]

Generally the arguments for where to fly are:
UK Cons:Expensive, very unreliable/miserable weather.
UK Pros:It is were you intend to fly so learn there, better training! (it depends on where you train!).

US Cons:Different procedures, have to acclimatise to UK environment on return home, extra expense of flights over, accomodation etc.
US Pros:Very Pro General Aviation and great place to fly, much cheaper flying environment, bit of a holiday and no distractions for the duration of the training.

What I have done is weight up all the pro's and Con's of each environment for each module to come up with my plan as follows:

1. JAA PPL in US followed by checkout in UK and some hour building in UK. - (Complete).
2. Main hour building in US in C150 for 30pph and IMC rating (so I have less chance of killing myself in the first 100 hrs - (Complete).
3. ATPL exams distance learning (should have done this full time :mad: ) and finishing hour building in UK - Nearly complete.
4. JAA CPL/MEP in US. Now comfortable with both US and UK environment so going to where the weather is good. To complete within as little time as possible.
5. FAA IR. Can make full use of Instrument hours so far from IMC rating. Can't credit this directly to JAA IR training.
6. FI(R) in the UK full time. Hopefully get some work out of them.
7. Try and blag "staff rates" for JAA IR conversion course.
8. MCC at some point.

I do think certain parts of the training should be in the UK and acclimatisation is not as easy as you think.
I also think that as we all usually fly US aircraft whilst training a big proportion of this should be done where you just pay less (especially multi) to do it.

My aim is to be as professional a pilot as I can be whilst cutting out any uneccessary costs if possible.