U.K. expands H145 fleet for Brunei and Cyprus

[NutLoose]

Purchasing another Six. So they are “critical military capabilities is essential to our nation’s security”…… In Brunei and erm Cyprus…… How is the Puma replacement coming along BTW?

”avoiding unnecessary over-speccing” why does that sound like doing it on the cheap, that will require more funding later to make it fit for purpose. ;) Or am I just being cynical.

The UK’s Defence Equipment & Support (DE&S) has finalised a contract valued at £122 million for the procurement of six Airbus H145 helicopters, aimed at bolstering aviation support for British forces stationed in Brunei and Cyprus.This announcement follows the Ministry of Defence’s (MOD) November 2023 disclosure through a Voluntary Transparency Notification of its plans to acquire the H145s.

The Airbus H145 is not new to the UK Defence sector, being integral to the UK Military Flying Training System where it aids in the training of helicopter aircrew across various conditions including maritime, mountain, and search and rescue operations.

The newly acquired helicopters will primarily support operations in Brunei, aiding in jungle training and critical medical evacuation tasks. In Cyprus, stationed within the Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs), the helicopters will facilitate training, joint military exercises with the Republic of Cyprus, and are also tasked with emergency response and aerial firefighting duties.



Since 2022, the interim aviation support in these regions has been provided by the Puma HC2 helicopters. The transition to the Airbus H145 marks a continued commitment by the UK to its defence activities in Brunei and Cyprus, enhancing operational efficiency and effectiveness through fleet commonality.

Minister for Defence Procurement James Cartlidge said:

“Reforming defence acquisition to make every pound count and rapidly provide our Armed Forces with . As I announced at the International Military Helicopters conference, purchasing the H145s will support our forces in Brunei and on Cyprus with a trusted capability whilst avoiding unnecessary over-speccing, and overspending.”






https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-expands-airbus-h145-helicopter-fleet/

[minigundiplomat]

We seem to keep buying small batches of aircraft from Airbus with no tender.

[nowherespecial]

I saw some purchase contracts recently between UK MOD and AH UK. I'll be polite and say that the UK MOD's negotiation team didn't know what they were doing. The less charitable answer is that the UK MOD got royally taken to the cleaners.

[JulieAndrews]

No wonder Lenny is laughing -

£122M for 6 poxy civvy aircraft and only 2-yrs support - with the first year under warranty….it wouldn’t be so bad if they could take the ‘M’ from the price tag and stick it after the model number…….

[rrekn]

At £20m per aircraft, that's only double what you'd pay for a equivalent civilian aircraft, what a bargin!

[FloaterNorthWest]

…..and only 2-yrs support - with the first year under warranty…….

Are you sure it’s only 2 years S&S?

[JulieAndrews]

Are you sure it’s only 2 years S&S?
sorry floater, my bad, not written well - 3-years of tech support with the first year being under warranty, leaving 2-years.

[NutLoose]

In 2020 the US bought 16 new Lakota for $116 mil (approx £93.6 mil) I realise prices have risen, but still.

https://www.army-technology.com/news/us-army-awards-116m-contract-16-uh-72a-lakota-aircraft/

[FloaterNorthWest]

sorry floater, my bad, not written well - 3-years of tech support with the first year being under warranty, leaving 2-years.

The warranty only covers parts but no labour.

Also, AHUK are setting up two fully staffed maintenance operations so the contract price includes purchase of 6 aircraft, modification of the aircraft, set up two operations, staff wages and subsistence for three years and of course a margin.

[minigundiplomat]

No wonder Lenny is laughing -

£122M for 6 poxy civvy aircraft and only 2-yrs support - with the first year under warranty….it wouldn’t be so bad if they could take the ‘M’ from the price tag and stick it after the model number…….

BOHICA!

[JulieAndrews]

The warranty only covers parts but no labour.

Also, AHUK are setting up two fully staffed maintenance operations so the contract price includes purchase of 6 aircraft, modification of the aircraft, set up two operations, staff wages and subsistence for three years and of course a margin.
of course - forgot about the ‘modification’ bit - let’s hope it goes a bit better than previous modifications to civvy aircraft for the mil.
No one is paying 10m for a basic 145 these days, specially not for a job lot.
there is a lot of ‘fat’ in this - and a lot of urine being extracted by the OEM.
both locations are mature operations familiar with helis. Valid point though as 3-years supply of Kokineli can mount up ;-)
it looks like all OEMs are at it though and AH shareholders should be chuffed.
Single-source - it’s nothing short of embarrassing imho. Those whom have witnessed our Defence negotiating skills will know why.

[nowherespecial]

Julie,
For the tape, how much do you think a clean basic H145D3 costs these days? What would you include in your 'basic' H145D3? What do we think these aircraft will come with?

[minigundiplomat]

Julie,
For the tape, how much do you think a clean basic H145D3 costs these days? What would you include in your 'basic' H145D3? What do we think these aircraft will come with?

My (slightly educated, but 2 years OOD) guess would be circa 10m Euro, or less than half of what we are paying.

This comes in short succession after we bought 6 H135 from Airbus, also single sourced, and then found we didn't need them. WTAF is going on at DE&S?

Also, the rationale for single sourcing the H145 was, according to DE&S, that it was 'an accepted type' - yes, it was accepted to be operated under a civilian CAMO and operated for training in LFA1 and slightly beyond, not SAR/EMS and Jungle Ops in hot n high environments.

[trim it out]

This comes in short succession after we bought 6 H135 from Airbus, also single sourced, and then found we didn't need them. WTAF is going on at DE&S?

Also, the rationale for single sourcing the H145 was, according to DE&S, that it was 'an accepted type' - yes, it was accepted to be operated under a civilian CAMO and operated for training in LFA1 and slightly beyond, not SAR/EMS and Jungle Ops in hot n high environments.
The 135 decision was not down to DE&S, that was a ministerial call.

The 145 operates with other Forces in tropical environments and at high altitude, it's not a new platform.

If anything it shows we can actually get stuff done without the nonsense that is prevalent under "normal" procurement time lines and bureaucracy. The alternative was to wait for NMH which would have likely been more unsuitable than 145 in those environments, and far more expensive.

[HeliHenri]

Just for info,

The first 2 of the 12 H145M ordered by the Cyprus National guard are on test in Germany before delivery.
.

[Teetering_Head]

Julie,
For the tape, how much do you think a clean basic H145D3 costs these days? What would you include in your 'basic' H145D3? What do we think these aircraft will come with?

It's the civilian H145, not the M. Likely a winch but they're already using them at Valley. 2 years engineering support from Airbus included in those costs. I'd imagine they're looking at building shiny new hangars in Brunei and Cyprus. I'm fairly certain they were doing the same with the 135 contract that got cancelled

[minigundiplomat]

The 135 decision was not down to DE&S, that was a ministerial call.

The 145 operates with other Forces in tropical environments and at high altitude, it's not a new platform.

If anything it shows we can actually get stuff done without the nonsense that is prevalent under "normal" procurement time lines and bureaucracy. The alternative was to wait for NMH which would have likely been more unsuitable than 145 in those environments, and far more expensive.

1. I have a very low expectation of our politicans, so in some way I'm setting you a low bar, but I am not convinced a minister woke up one morning and decided to buy 6 helicopters. They may have approved them, but who waved that PO under their nose?

2. There are a range of platforms that other forces operate in H&H environments, but given we had a range of platforms in Afghanistan (H&H) that sat around unused during the summer, or lifted no meaningful payload, I would have expected some rigorous requirements; not just 'we accepted it for Ascent and its fine in LFA1'.

3. You seem to look down your nose at 'normal procurement timelines'; does this mean you find competitive tenders tiresome? I can appreciate single source if only one platform is available, but tenders make the CS/MOD actually define a requirement and ensure (to some degree) taxpayer value. Have we just gaffed that off because its easier to write Francois a cheque?

Agree on NMH - its a sh1tshow and causing all sorts of unintended consequences.

[trim it out]

1. I have a very low expectation of our politicans, so in some way I'm setting you a low bar, but I am not convinced a minister woke up one morning and decided to buy 6 helicopters. They may have approved them, but who waved that PO under their nose?
You'd be right to think a minister didn't wake up one day and decide to buy the helicopters, nor did one wake up one day and decide to cancel them. There were lots of forces in play shaping the decisions and results. A decision that has screwed several of our flying careers but that's the way the cookie crumbles and the world hasn't stopped turning so maybe it was the best difficult decision(?).

2. There are a range of platforms that other forces operate in H&H environments, but given we had a range of platforms in Afghanistan (H&H) that sat around unused during the summer, or lifted no meaningful payload, I would have expected some rigorous requirements; not just 'we accepted it for Ascent and its fine in LFA1'.Afghanistan is not Cyprus, or Brunei, or LFA 1(9?). Completely different TTPs and requirements so not a fair comparison I think.

3. You seem to look down your nose at 'normal procurement timelines'; does this mean you find competitive tenders tiresome? I can appreciate single source if only one platform is available, but tenders make the CS/MOD actually define a requirement and ensure (to some degree) taxpayer value. Have we just gaffed that off because its easier to write Francois a cheque?

Agree on NMH - its a sh1tshow and causing all sorts of unintended consequences.
The problem with the tenders process is it's not purely requirement driven as much as it is steered by personalities in certain positions and strangled with bureaucracy. You only have to work in a HQ where the Boss or top corridor changes and the priorities or D&G can change within a week (see the many Land projects which suffer from capbadge rivalry). Add into that politicians driving projects for their own agendas (jobs for constituents) makes the process tiresome. Particularly amusing when people in Defence have LinkedIn style motivational quotes in their signatures (ones about mission command are my favourite), yet as an organisation are unable to make a decision on facial hair, contents of sandwiches, location of functions, dress codes etc without defaulting to a one-up for approval. We let people go and fly helicopters at night on NOE routes who are of a rank that can't even sign off their own FMT request form to go to a hospital appointment for goodness sake! There are plenty of other examples of similar ridiculousness out there.

I'm just glad I'll be out before NMH even gets a fielding team in the cockpit and I know I'm not the only one. Add in all the changes to the RRP et al and the offer is so poor now I wouldn't even recommend military aircrew to the son of a bloke in the pub.

And pause :E

[minigundiplomat]

You'd be right to think a minister didn't wake up one day and decide to buy the helicopters, nor did one wake up one day and decide to cancel them. There were lots of forces in play shaping the decisions and results. A decision that has screwed several of our flying careers but that's the way the cookie crumbles and the world hasn't stopped turning so maybe it was the best difficult decision(?).

Afghanistan is not Cyprus, or Brunei, or LFA 1(9?). Completely different TTPs and requirements so not a fair comparison I think.


The problem with the tenders process is it's not purely requirement driven as much as it is steered by personalities in certain positions and strangled with bureaucracy. You only have to work in a HQ where the Boss or top corridor changes and the priorities or D&G can change within a week (see the many Land projects which suffer from capbadge rivalry). Add into that politicians driving projects for their own agendas (jobs for constituents) makes the process tiresome. Particularly amusing when people in Defence have LinkedIn style motivational quotes in their signatures (ones about mission command are my favourite), yet as an organisation are unable to make a decision on facial hair, contents of sandwiches, location of functions, dress codes etc without defaulting to a one-up for approval. We let people go and fly helicopters at night on NOE routes who are of a rank that can't even sign off their own FMT request form to go to a hospital appointment for goodness sake! There are plenty of other examples of similar ridiculousness out there.

I'm just glad I'll be out before NMH even gets a fielding team in the cockpit and I know I'm not the only one. Add in all the changes to the RRP et al and the offer is so poor now I wouldn't even recommend military aircrew to the son of a bloke in the pub.

And pause :E

I still disagree on some of the original points - we are normalising failure, but agree with many of the other points (which made me chuckle)

Best of luck on the outside - I can tell by your humour you will thrive.

[trim it out]

I still disagree on some of the original points - we are normalising failure, but agree with many of the other points (which made me chuckle)

Best of luck on the outside - I can tell by your humour you will thrive.
Thank you, best to you also.

I shall leave you with this gem! :mad:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x800/1625566225291_b64a791da7c507f2b334fea3be6a31628df09d3f.jpeg

[JulieAndrews]

I would hope A-kit for hoist each plus floats - with B-kit at each location. UHF comms should be plug-n-play if you believe the hype. We’ve been told about the benefit of economies of scale and reducing fleet types so rearcrew seating and any other kit will already be sorted via Shawbury experience. Maybe take a leaf out of what other UK D3 HEMS/AA operators are using. No DAS or ballistic protection and no ‘M’ designation. There’ll be plenty of spare helionix kit as French have spec’d their 160s with Thales I believe.
H145 is a great chopper but please don’t tell me you’d pay more than 8m for one.....

[minigundiplomat]

I would hope A-kit for hoist each plus floats - with B-kit at each location. UHF comms should be plug-n-play if you believe the hype. We’ve been told about the benefit of economies of scale and reducing fleet types so rearcrew seating and any other kit will already be sorted via Shawbury experience. Maybe take a leaf out of what other UK D3 HEMS/AA operators are using. No DAS or ballistic protection and no ‘M’ designation. There’ll be plenty of spare helionix kit as French have spec’d their 160s with Thales I believe.
H145 is a great chopper but please don’t tell me you’d pay more than 8m for one.....

Wait, are you telling me £122m for 6 isn't great value?

[Teetering_Head]

Wait, are you telling me £122m for 6 isn't great value?

🤣

If I remember correctly they paid just over £35m for 5 135s. I think they paid an additional £15m for 3 or 5 years engineering support from Airbus, obviously that didn't happen and I'm sure they lost some money as the contract had already been signed and Airbus had engineers waiting to go.

How on earth they've agreed on £122m for 6 aircraft and 2 years engineering support is bloody bonkers!

[RVDT]

There’ll be plenty of spare helionix kit as French have spec’d their 160s with Thales I believe.

Helionix is not a Thales product - you will have to dig a bit deeper.
Neither is it an "option". It is part of the "basic" aircraft and the TC for the type and the "integration" is extensive.

As to the "costs" it would seem that AH will be providing civvy maintenance staff and qualified and experienced "blackhanders" like us would need a fair amount of enticement and more than likely a rotational gig to operate in Cyprus or Brunei?

[212man]

Helionix is not a Thales product - you will have to dig a bit deeper.
Neither is it an "option". It is part of the "basic" aircraft and the TC for the type and the "integration" is extensive.

As to the "costs" it would seem that AH will be providing civvy maintenance staff and qualified and experienced "blackhanders" like us would need a fair amount of enticement and more than likely a rotational gig to operate in Cyprus or Brunei?
If you re-read, he is suggesting that those 160s were specced with Thales (Top Deck?), so some unused Helionix gear? Can’t vouch either way

[mechpowi]

I'll second RVDT here. Helionix is not just the display system on a modern Airbus helicopter. It's part of the Aircraft Management Computers softare that also provides, among other things, AFCS functions and the warning and caution system. Swapping Helionix out is the same as designing and certifying a new helicopter (sub) model.

[JulieAndrews]

I'll second RVDT here. Helionix is not just the display system on a modern Airbus helicopter. It's part of the Aircraft Management Computers softare that also provides, among other things, AFCS functions and the warning and caution system. Swapping Helionix out is the same as designing and certifying a new helicopter (sub) model.
which is exactly what the French have done after finding Helionix not suitable for their role with FlyteX.
i appreciate Helionix is more than just a set of screens, had great pleasure using it when I wanted to fly 150nm in a strict line to a known location with zero threats - apart from my flying ;-)

[Mee3]

which is exactly what the French have done after finding Helionix not suitable for their role with FlyteX.
not at all. It's just more of to be french for french and american free, plus job creation.

[trim it out]

H145 and Brunei related so best placed here.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/brunei-orders-six-h145m-helicopters

Should make getting into the smaller LPs a bit more comfortable than with the Blackhawks.

[FloaterNorthWest]

H145 and Brunei related so best placed here.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/brunei-orders-six-h145m-helicopters

Should make getting into the smaller LPs a bit more comfortable than with the Blackhawks.

Add that to this

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2022-06-cyprus-orders-six-h145ms-for-its-national-guard

Then it seems the U.K. putting H145 into a region with OEM support for the two governments involved makes sense but you will still get cries of “should have bought Blackhawk” and yes I know there are Blackhawks in the area but they are too big and too expensive for the role involved as it doesn’t need an armed aircraft with a proven battlefield record of being shot at.

[minigundiplomat]

That's the kind of thing that is usually defined during a tender process.

[212man]

“All six helicopters will be introduced into service gradually, starting from the year 2026 to replace the Bolkow BO-105 helicopters, which have been retired from service,”

Kind of indicates that the role isn't actually required!