Qantas SH EBA negotiations

[DashTrash.]

G’day all!

what’s everyone’s thoughts on where negotiations are at?

I understand not a lot of info is forthcoming from AIPA. Just generalisations for the time being until an AIP is formalised.

what do line pilots want to see this time around?

personally I’d love to see some better roster protections concerning paxing credits. Maybe a min daily rate like LH. Also a formalised RIN to protect pilots when 737 is eventually gone.

DT

[onezeroonethree]

Did you not attend any of the AIPA meets in the last month?

A lot of information was given. It’s put my mind at ease despite the official quietness so far via official comms.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Not the time nor the place. Call AIPA if you are genuine.

[Gas Chamber]

I’m after 40% after 15years of going backwards and being manipulated by management.
also the lack of recognition of being stood down for years should be addressed.
MDC like LH and full paxing credits are a must.
Staff travel has become a disgrace also. We need a yearly confirmed business for family.
we spend most of our lives away from our family, would be nice to take them on a yearly trip to make up for the time away.
If not I’ll be hoping for PIA.
enough is enough. No more being dictated to by bean counters and MBA morons.

[Sameoldsameold]

I’m after 40% after 15years of going backwards and being manipulated by management.
also the lack of recognition of being stood down for years should be addressed.
MDC like LH and full paxing credits are a must.
Staff travel has become a disgrace also. We need a yearly confirmed business for family.
we spend most of our lives away from our family, would be nice to take them on a yearly trip to make up for the time away.
If not I’ll be hoping for PIA.
enough is enough. No more being dictated to by bean counters and MBA morons.

That is funny

[Talkwrench]

That is funny

I reckon the Qantas SH EBA negotiations will be a lot of things, but funny won't be one of them.

[Gas Chamber]

That is funny

great. Another MBA muppet with nothing to offer the world but an opinion.
bye bye

[Gas Chamber]

That is funny

and why not 40% exactly? Multiple years of pay freezes to help the company. Management all then turn around and give themselves massive rises after not doing their jobs.
Trash the place and still take a record package.
why not 40? That would literally catch us up to where we were 15 years ago.
plenty of airlines paid pilots huge bonuses once stood back up. Some over 8 months pay.
not a $500 useless voucher (slap in the face)

[Zeta_Reticuli]

That is funny

LOL Base pay for an F/O should be 300k. And 550k if Based in Sydney or Melbourne and around 950k for Captain... thats a realistic figure.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

great. Another MBA muppet with nothing to offer the world but an opinion.
bye bye

Ignore the trolls or this one will be shut down too.

As I posted in the NAA thread, we are hundreds of thousands short of where we should be based on the amount pilots were paid in the late 80’s and adjusted for inflation. I wouldn’t consider the war to be over until Captains are on well North of $500,000 with lifestyle protections enshrined in the agreement. Plus a ‘thank you for sticking with us’ bonus similar to that which we’ve seen from overseas operators, something like 9 months pay.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Ignore the trolls or this one will be shut down too.

As I posted in the NAA thread, we are hundreds of thousands short of where we should be based on the amount pilots were paid in the late 80’s and adjusted for inflation. I wouldn’t consider the war to be over until Captains are on well North of $500,000 with lifestyle protections enshrined in the agreement. Plus a ‘thank you for sticking with us’ bonus similar to that which we’ve seen from overseas operators, something like 9 months pay.


Not sure if you are referring to me as being a troll. I may sound like a troll with my Absurd rhetoric. But I am no troll, everything I have mentioned is what I believe. It may sound insane the figures I put out there. But we live in absurd times where the political and corporate elite think it is reasonable to erode all of our living standards while they continually get larger and larger salaries and tax breaks. I am a pro capitalist but what is unfolding is not capitalism. I am no troll, absurd times require absurd responses. We are all in this situation, because no one has the balls beside a select few like myself who stick our necks out. And if things don't change for the better, you will all know who I am within the next decade when 2 airline pilots decide to start a political party. With current inflation and housing costs, 950k to 1m for a 737 capt is not unreasonable for a pilot living in Sydney. What is unreasonable is what the political and corporate elite have unleashed on the middle class and the poor. I will not be standing for it much longer and neither should anyone else. I am no troll.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Not sure if you are referring to me as being a troll. I may sound like a troll with my Absurd rhetoric. But I am no troll, everything I have mentioned is what I believe. It may sound insane the figures I put out there. But we live in absurd times where the political and corporate elite think it is reasonable to erode all of our living standards while they continually get larger and larger salaries and tax breaks. I am a pro capitalist but what is unfolding is not capitalism. I am no troll, absurd times require absurd responses. We are all in this situation, because no one has the balls beside a select few like myself who stick our necks out. And if things don't change for the better, you will all know who I am within the next decade when 2 airline pilots decide to start a political party. With current inflation and housing costs, 950k to 1m for a 737 capt is not unreasonable for a pilot living in Sydney. What is unreasonable is what the political and corporate elite have unleashed on the middle class and the poor. I will not be standing for it much longer and neither should anyone else. I am no troll.

You're not a troll, I definitely wasn’t referring to you. We are very much aligned, I don’t want the ‘same old’ corporate BS either, if you get my drift 😉.

[maggot]

Haha for a mill I'll do the reserves for zip like now


But remember boys and girls: pay for reserve IS NOT A PAY RISE

[No upgrade]

It’s not funny. It’s hilarious.

40%, PIA, and well north of 500k Hahaha

We are not in America.

These wizards will be tripping over themselves to sign off on a one off 5k pre tax payment, and the prospect of a shiny 321.

Well, well, here we go again. No spine, no scope, no reserve pay, no protection, a 20 year upgrade, and another 5 years hearing them whine about the group pilots they were complicit in creating.

[aussieflyboy]

It’s not funny. It’s hilarious.

Hahaha

We are not in America.

These wizards will be tripping over themselves to sign off on a one off 5k pre tax payment, and the prospect of a shiny 321.

Well, well, here we go again. No spine, no scope, no reserve pay, no protection, a 20 year upgrade, and another 5 years hearing them whine about the group pilots they were complicit in creating.

Wait until they throw the “an opportunity to operate future tranches of A220s”… blokes will be running to vote yes!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Wait until they throw the “an opportunity to operate future tranches of A220s”… blokes will be running to vote yes!

They would be wise to have a quick chat to the guys who took the ‘opportunity’ to operate the A220. Some are opting to stay in the 717 until it is fully phased out as the EA is appalling and the aircraft isn’t that crash hot either.

[cloudsurfng]

To answer the OP……money. in the pocket. Sure, fix up the things that need to be fixed, theyre on top of the money. No money, no deal. I wont listen to someone trying to sell me a payrise under pay for reserve, av callouts etc. its hourly rate. Compounding, money. If you’re not going to give money, then ll take more time off. For the same money. More X days guaranteed.

try tell me you can’t afford it after the boards payrise and share buybacks. I think youll find theres appetite for a fight if need be. Based on what’s out there so far, while appreciative of the negotiating teams work, it’s nowhere near acceptable. Add money, and it’s getting there.

[HighSpeedPolar]

I do understand AIPA have been hamstrung in terms of the legislative environment they have negotiated under in previous years but I think this is a deciding year for myself and others if we can’t even manage to attain a pay rise which keeps up with inflation.

- $400 million in share buybacks
- the board scoring 5-8% payrises, executive bonuses out the nose along with gifting Alan Joyce $125 million over his stint with a $24 million parting gift in a year we couldn’t even manage to dispatch half the 737 fleet with less than 40 MEL’s and hold items, we’re leasing widebodies to keep our patchwork ‘LH operation’ on the road and his decisions have left QF facing millions in fines and lost revenue for the 1700 ground staff.
- Most techies have lost over 6 figures worth of income during COVID and some of our new joiners suffered even worse to be met by a barely liveable B scale

Roster protections are the cream but if there is no inflationary pay increases over the 4 years it’ll be a flat out no - the words ‘wage policy’ shouldn’t be allowed to leave the mouth of any company negotiator without the above thrown straight back in their face.

It’s not often QF SH, LH, Virgin and even the team at Airservices are negotiating at a similar time with the leverage we’re offered today - perhaps it’s time the industry says enough so we can leave the industry better than we found it for those behind us.

[Sameoldsameold]

and why not 40% exactly? Multiple years of pay freezes to help the company. Management all then turn around and give themselves massive rises after not doing their jobs.
Trash the place and still take a record package.
why not 40? That would literally catch us up to where we were 15 years ago.
plenty of airlines paid pilots huge bonuses once stood back up. Some over 8 months pay.
not a $500 useless voucher (slap in the face)


If you genuinely think that a 40% payrise is achievable then that really is funny stuff. Delusional…..but still funny. We are all just employees. Nothing more nothing less. Nobody else is getting a 40% rise so why should we ? Time to be realistic and stop with the day dreaming. It’s just how it is. Same old situation EBA after EBA.

[Gas Chamber]

If you genuinely think that a 40% payrise is achievable then that really is funny stuff. Delusional…..but still funny. We are all just employees. Nothing more nothing less. Nobody else is getting a 40% rise so why should we ? Time to be realistic and stop with the day dreaming. It’s just how it is. Same old situation EBA after EBA.

so what, should we ask for 8% while being told we’re getting a pay freeze.
play their stupid games back and start at 40. Give reasons (Covid, previous pay freezes, inflation, boards greed etc). Why them and not us?
We’re stupid if we don’t go hard now. Claw back years of manipulation. Why not?
are you that short sighted?

[dragon man]

If you genuinely think that a 40% payrise is achievable then that really is funny stuff. Delusional…..but still funny. We are all just employees. Nothing more nothing less. Nobody else is getting a 40% rise so why should we ? Time to be realistic and stop with the day dreaming. It’s just how it is. Same old situation EBA after EBA.

‘Unfortunately I think you are probably correct , however does that mean all and sundry should just roll over and accept the crumbs thrown to them by the bosses while their collective snouts are firmly in the trough?

[Sameoldsameold]

so what, should we ask for 8% while being told we’re getting a pay freeze.
play their stupid games back and start at 40. Give reasons (Covid, previous pay freezes, inflation, boards greed etc). Why them and not us?
We’re stupid if we don’t go hard now. Claw back years of manipulation. Why not?
are you that short sighted?

Not short sighted. Just seen it all before. Go hard if you want but in the end it won’t amount to anything substantial. Unfortunately this is the new world we live in and it’s not confined to aviation.

[romeocharlie]

I’m after 40% after 15years of going backwards and being manipulated by management.
also the lack of recognition of being stood down for years should be addressed.
MDC like LH and full paxing credits are a must.
Staff travel has become a disgrace also. We need a yearly confirmed business for family.
we spend most of our lives away from our family, would be nice to take them on a yearly trip to make up for the time away.
If not I’ll be hoping for PIA.
enough is enough. No more being dictated to by bean counters and MBA morons.

Throw in a unicorn too. *not going to lie, I'd like to see full paxing credits too. If I'm at work I'm still away from my family.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I'd like to see full paxing credits too. If I'm at work I'm still away from my family.

Agree - this should be a no brainer. If you’re in uniform, you should be being paid. Also incentivises the company to build more efficient patterns.

[DirectAnywhere]

Agree - this should be a no brainer. If you’re in uniform, you should be being paid. Also incentivises the company to build more efficient patterns.

Not sure, but I suspect the rumoured DPC60 will go a long way to fixing this problem.

Agree that full credits for paxing would be simpler. Would need to see some samples of how this will look overall. DPC60 also fixes the sitting around somewhere on a weekend for 2.5 hrs on a transit not getting paid. Again would need to see some numbers but it has to be an improvement. It may be enough on its own to fix both of these issues.

The negotiating team would have more info on how this would look I guess if you approach one of them.

[Gas Chamber]

Not sure, but I suspect the rumoured DPC60 will go a long way to fixing this problem.

Agree that full credits for paxing would be simpler. Would need to see some samples of how this will look overall. DPC60 also fixes the sitting around somewhere on a weekend for 2.5 hrs on a transit not getting paid. Again would need to see some numbers but it has to be an improvement. It may be enough on its own to fix both of these issues.

The negotiating team would have more info on how this would look I guess if you approach one of them.

no other industry would accept half credits to be at work. None

[DirectAnywhere]

no other industry would accept half credits to be at work. None

I get it. It’s crap. It’s been one of my gripes for years.

I don’t know how the numbers work but I’m just saying that a 60% duty credit MAY (not will, may) be enough to fix both the paxing issue and the not getting paid on a transit issue.

AIPA is hopefully running the numbers to see how it works out.

Back of the envelope, a pax SYD-MEL to operate the return with a 1 hr transit is worth 2.85 hrs as opposed to the current 2.13. That’s close enough to the 3 hours to operate both ways it shouldn’t cause too much angst.

[Transition Layer]

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[framer]

Unfortunately this is the new world we live in and it’s not confined to aviation.
I think that is fallacious reasoning. It appears to be limiting the time frame that examples are taken from to about 35 years and then assuming that a pattern has to continue. I’m not convinced that the pattern will continue indefinitely. It hasn’t in some parts of the world so that proves it can be disrupted under certain circumstances.
In 2010 the papers had articles about US Airline pilots earning very low salaries and qualifying for food stamps. In 2023 the same papers were reporting on large sign on bonuses and 50% pay hikes.
​​​​​​​Sometimes things change.

[goodonyamate]

I’d suggest when the deal comes out that every SH pilot apply the fixes to their last 6 rosters and see what the effect would be.

plus, if things that were free or low cost, will now cost more, then expect them to change the way they utilise R and AVto minimise cost. Boom. There goes the ‘payrise’

[soseg]

no other industry would accept half credits to be at work. None

43% of network pilots were totally cool with working at half pay for overtime before the company tripped over their own dick and pissed them off enough to sway more to vote no

[walesregent]

43% of network pilots were totally cool with working at half pay for overtime before the company tripped over their own dick and pissed them off enough to sway more to vote no

I don’t know if ‘totally cool’ quite describes it so much as ‘willing to tolerate it to get back pay while waiting for the recruitment process to finish at their next job’. I don’t support them there but I don’t see it the same as rolling over.

[Callsign Please]

Is there any chance of even just asking for the wage freeze back? We took 3% to help out while things were in the red, now they’re not.
Even if it was pencil whipped for the frozen years pay so they can’t cry inflation or something, imagine how much good faith that would show.

Imagine how appreciated everyone would feel.
Imagine how good of a PR story it would be.

[Big Silver Spoon]

I don’t know if ‘totally cool’ quite describes it so much as ‘willing to tolerate it to get back pay while waiting for the recruitment process to finish at their next job’. I don’t support them there but I don’t see it the same as rolling over.

So screw over your peers for a quick payout before you move somewhere else?

Sound like great pilots to work with. Bet they shout the coffee too.

[aussieflyboy]

Is there any chance of even just asking for the wage freeze back? We took 3% to help out while things were in the red, now they’re not.
Even if it was pencil whipped for the frozen years pay so they can’t cry inflation or something, imagine how much good faith that would show.

Imagine how appreciated everyone would feel.
Imagine how good of a PR story it would be.

They are paying for the increase in the Super Guarantee using the wage freeze.

[No upgrade]

So screw over your peers for a quick payout before you move somewhere else?
Got nothing on the pilots that gifted the company all these B scales over the years.

[Gas Chamber]

AFAP fees can now finally be taken from payroll. Refreshing to see negotiators won’t sign NDAs. Also given guarantees they won’t join management within 5 years, or take training roles within 3.
AIPA could learn a lot from these guys/girls. Open frank negotiation on members behalf. No secret deals and games. They LISTEN to their membership for direction. Network are showing us the way (hopefully).
Latest news letter is refreshing as always. Real data and no BS. A hint at what we can expect and aim for.
Well done to these volunteers.

[transition_alt]

AFAP fees can now finally be taken from payroll. Refreshing to see negotiators won’t sign NDAs. Also given guarantees they won’t join management within 5 years, or take training roles within 3.
AIPA could learn a lot from these guys/girls. Open frank negotiation on members behalf. No secret deals and games. They LISTEN to their membership for direction. Network are showing us the way (hopefully).
Latest news letter is refreshing as always. Real data and no BS. A hint at what we can expect and aim for.
Well done to these volunteers.

Yeah but what’s with the 8.36% + 5%?
Talk about setting the bar low.

But I do agree, much better correspondence than the secretive AIPA who seem to be doing nothing.

[metabed]

Don't forget transition_alt the rest of the pay rises over the life of the deal from the AFAP's log of claims from their website:

2. Remuneration - Higher base salary / guaranteed earnings
Our claim for salary includes:

An immediate 8.36% increase to make up for the 2022, 2023 shortfall when compared to CPI.
An Additional 5% pay increase in line with industry movements.
Increases over the life of agreement in line with forecast CPI of:
2024: 4%
2025: 4%
2026: 3%
2027: 3%

[aussieflyboy]

Have Shorthaul Pilots already had their 2 year pay freeze IAW with the Qantas wage policy?

[transition_alt]

Don't forget transition_alt the rest of the pay rises over the life of the deal from the AFAP's log of claims from their website:

2. Remuneration - Higher base salary / guaranteed earnings
Our claim for salary includes:

An immediate 8.36% increase to make up for the 2022, 2023 shortfall when compared to CPI.
An Additional 5% pay increase in line with industry movements.
Increases over the life of agreement in line with forecast CPI of:
2024: 4%
2025: 4%
2026: 3%
2027: 3%



Yes, the 4/3% is merely (hopefully) keeping up with CPI.

The one off pay rise should be greater and any chance of getting that will be completely off the table now. 13.36% will not happen either.
Why start with the lowest number from the get go? Isn’t that negotiation 101? 13.36% would be the lowest I’d accept after the past 15 years.

QF offered the standard 2 year pay freeze and then AFAP come back with 13.36%. So we’ll likely see 5, 10% at absolute best. A poor result in the current negotiation environment.

Maybe I’ll be proven wrong and the IR team will actually come to the table with good faith negotiations like they keep on saying. We shall see…

[gordonfvckingramsay]

They need to stop hiding behind the concept of CPI. The real cost of living is WAY above CPI and to call a CPI increase an increase is a compete fallacy. They also need to put a stop to calling (for example) 4% over 4 years a 16% increase, it’s a 4% increase over successive years…years during which you are still being overtaken by the yearly cost of living.

[Beer Baron]

AIPA could learn a lot from these guys/girls. Open frank negotiation on members behalf.
So have AFAP actually negotiated anything? Or have they just put together a wish list that they will never achieve but makes them sound tough.

[Gas Chamber]

So have AFAP actually negotiated anything? Or have they just put together a wish list that they will never achieve but makes them sound tough.

AFAP probably is below what we should expect after the past 15 years. I’ve heard nothing from AIPA (specifics), so which is better?!

[ddrwk]

AFAP probably is below what we should expect after the past 15 years. I’ve heard nothing from AIPA (specifics), so which is better?!

Are you really asking if ‘good’ communications outweighs actual results?

[Brakerider]

What’s the likelihood of the company engaging in ‘good faith’ negotiations with AFAP whilst they already have a lesser “deal” with AIPA?

[dragon man]

What’s the likelihood of the company engaging in ‘good faith’ negotiations with AFAP whilst they already have a lesser “deal” with AIPA?

We all know good faith in the Qantas corporate dictionary has been replaced by bull**** them and tell them they won’t get back pay.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Strike action is imminent.

[Colonel_Klink]

Strike action is imminent.

By who if AIPA have reportedly reached a deal?

[Slezy9]

By who if AIPA have reportedly reached a deal?

if there’s a deal then where are the details? Why would they sit on them?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

What’s the breakdown of AFAP to AIPA members? If AIPA are as pro company as we think, it would be helpful if they didn’t hold the balance of power, as it were.

[Gas Chamber]

By who if AIPA have reportedly reached a deal?

all of us if we aren’t happy eating a **** sandwich. It would want to be a good deal after the past few years of absolute abuse under Joyce and co.
union can agree to anything…it’s up to the membership to vote.
PIA all the way for me if the company plays ANY games.
I’m done. 95% of us are.

[ddrwk]

By who if AIPA have reportedly reached a deal?

Reported where?

If in doubt, call a rep. I did - no in-principle agreement reached yet, negotiations are ongoing. When there’s something to report, it’ll be reported.

[Gas Chamber]

What’s the breakdown of AFAP to AIPA members? If AIPA are as pro company as we think, it would be helpful if they didn’t hold the balance of power, as it were.

I’d love to know the breakdown too. Very tempted to switch given what I’ve seen. NS trashed the place and left an absolute lack of trust.

[maggot]

Reported where?

If in doubt, call a rep. I did - no in-principle agreement reached yet, negotiations are ongoing. When there’s something to report, it’ll be reported.
I've heard maybe mid next week

[maggot]

if there’s a deal then where are the details? Why would they sit on them?

Why wouldn't they do their job as our elected reps? Christ on a bike what's with people demanding every detail of a delicate negotiation?

You can also pick up a phone and ask WTH is going on, or attend the aipa meet days. I've talked to a few reps and they've bounced a few ideas, some I bounced back.




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[aussieflyboy]

You’ll get 0%, 0%, 3%, 3% otherwise every other entity that has negotiated an agreement since implementation of the ‘wage policy’ gets a 6% pay rise.

Do you think you’re better then all these other businesses?

[hillbillybob]

all down to how to hide what you want while giving them their headline of "it fits the wages policy"

[TimmyTee]

Why should pilots remuneration depend on what other entities negotiate? Because of a “policy” plucked out of thin air?
Aren’t you all then beholden to the poorest negotiators and their terrible EA outcome?

Seems pretty crazy that pay “rises” can be tied to say FAs, who can walk into the job off the street, and have an average “career” length of ~5 years. They have much less to lose when settling for the first available cash hit.

[Fonz121]

Do you think you’re better then all these other businesses?

If that’s all they were able to negotiate, then yes.

[aussieflyboy]

If that’s all they were able to negotiate, then yes.

So you believe the 5,000+ people that have accepted a 2 year wage freeze were no good at negotiating? Remembering that AIPA and AFAP were involved in some of those negotiations?

Your base/hourly rate will remain at 2024 levels for 2025 and 2026. This is your companies wage policy.

[VisualPurple]

My biggest desire with the upcoming EBA is to break the wages policy. I’m voting no to everything if it includes Alan’s arbitrary policy and am looking forward to the fight.

[SixDemonBag]

Nailed it

[dragon man]

My biggest desire with the upcoming EBA is to break the wages policy. I’m voting no to everything if it includes Alan’s arbitrary policy and am looking forward to the fight.

Nothing would make me happier but the pilots won’t do it on their own it will IMO take the combined effort of all Qantas unions acting together to change it.

[VisualPurple]

I wouldn’t be so sure, by the time short haul gets to PIA, long haul won’t be far behind. If all of mainline is suddenly refusing to fly jets with MEL’s, or is under strike action you watch how fast the wages policy gets thrashed by Fair Work. There won’t be any grounding the airline permitted this time, not with the profits being made, rate of inflation and the companies industrial reputation.

[morno]

So you believe the 5,000+ people that have accepted a 2 year wage freeze were no good at negotiating? Remembering that AIPA and AFAP were involved in some of those negotiations?

Your base/hourly rate will remain at 2024 levels for 2025 and 2026. This is your companies wage policy.

My ass it will, anything less than 5/5/5/5 plus a sizeable percentage increase to even begin with, is an absolute no from the majority I would say.

They can shove their wage policy when the executives and the board don’t comply with it as well. Why should I take a drop in my pay when they’re making record profits.

[MalcolmReynolds]

If all Pilots strike then QF are Farked! Watch them change their "policy" quick smart!

[Gas Chamber]

If all Pilots strike then QF are Farked! Watch them change their "policy" quick smart!

it’s coming…I can’t wait. I hope they take us on.
bring it.
BRING IT

[aussieflyboy]

Sunstate, Eastern and NJS Pilots have all accepted a 2 year pay freeze. But Qantas SH Pilots won’t… should be interesting.

All these entities have been told that if any other entity gets a deal outside of the ‘wage policy’ then they also get the same deal.

SH Pilots will literally have every QF entity supporting them as it directly affects their own wage… QF IR screwed that up didn’t they!

I wouldn’t be surprised to see QF start offering certain entities a pay bump with conditions attached eg: “you get $XXX pay increase however you now relinquish any ‘wage policy’ connections with other entities”.

[Transition Layer]

You’ll get 0%, 0%, 3%, 3% otherwise every other entity that has negotiated an agreement since implementation of the ‘wage policy’ gets a 6% pay rise.

Do you think you’re better then all these other businesses?
I bet the Cuck chair in your bedroom is still warm

[A320 Flyer]

All these entities have been told that if any other entity gets a deal outside of the ‘wage policy’ then they also get the same

I’ve had a cursory glance at a few of the EBAs in question but I’m yet to see any reference to this.

Other than that….. there are many ways to get the job done…. The pay rises will be hidden where required.

[Brakerider]

Does anyone know why AIPA has a CEO now? What does she actually do? Did the members endorse the creation of this role?

[Sameoldsameold]

Does anyone know why AIPA has a CEO now? What does she actually do? Did the members endorse the creation of this role?

And.....what is her salary?

[Jetsbest]

Does anyone know why AIPA has a CEO now? What does she actually do? Did the members endorse the creation of this role?
AIPA has been open about the role and reasons. The members endorsed the creation of the role when they elected a committee of selfless, motivated, altruistic volunteers, from among their peers, to democratically represent them. Why do some feel the need to be consulted almost daily about their representation. I say let the reps get on with it.

[MikeHatter732]

I’ve had a cursory glance at a few of the EBAs in question but I’m yet to see any reference to this.
.
Some of the subsidiaries have it agreed in a side letter, which is just as legally binding as an EBA clause.

[Ladloy]

Other than that….. there are many ways to get the job done…. The pay rises will be hidden where required.
It only works if the hidden payrises have the same compounding effect coupled with super.

[No upgrade]

Why should I take a drop in my pay when they’re making record profits
Because you’re a bunch of suckers that will sign anything for a quick cash bonus.

​​​​​​​by the time short haul gets to PIA, long haul won’t be far behind
Management must be quaking in their boots at the thought of you rolling out the red tie brigade.

​​​​​​​Why do some feel the need to be consulted almost daily about their representation
Greed, trust, modern history?

[A320 Flyer]

Some of the subsidiaries have it agreed in a side letter, which is just as legally binding as an EBA clause.

Side letter….. as legally binding…… I’m not sure about that.

[aussieflyboy]

Side letter….. as legally binding…… I’m not sure about that.

If a letter or Q&A are issued to a group attached to the same email as the voting link it is legally binding.

People vote based on these Q&A documents. I suppose you could argue you were misled to believe something thus potentially invalidating the vote.

[MikeHatter732]

Side letter….. as legally binding…… I’m not sure about that.
It may not be enforceable under the FWA, but it most certainly is legally binding and could be easily tried in a civil court case (in lieu of the FWC).

[soseg]

You’re all talking about other pilot entities with this clause of, if one work group breaks the wage policy then they get it too.

Newsflash: most if not all work groups in Q-group have this clause. Cabin crew, engineers, etc, not just pilots. From memory it just states that they’ll come back to the table for discussions. Not that they’ll automatically have the broken wage freeze applied to them too.

So here is a serious question to all SH and LH pilots reading this forum: what’s it matter if the pay freeze is officially broken or if it’s just “worked around” and still applicable on paper for QF IR to boast about? If you get your big pay rise but they carefully hide it by altering pay scales, years of service, sliding figures around etc, and short term and long term you stand to be no worse off, then what do you care?

[Maggie Island]

I bet the Cuck chair in your bedroom is still warm

Never heard anyone refer to the jump seat that way, I’m definitely going to start calling it that.

[maggot]

You’re all talking about other pilot entities with this clause of, if one work group breaks the wage policy then they get it too.

Newsflash: most if not all work groups in Q-group have this clause. Cabin crew, engineers, etc, not just pilots. From memory it just states that they’ll come back to the table for discussions. Not that they’ll automatically have the broken wage freeze applied to them too.

So here is a serious question to all SH and LH pilots reading this forum: what’s it matter if the pay freeze is officially broken or if it’s just “worked around” and still applicable on paper for QF IR to boast about? If you get your big pay rise but they carefully hide it by altering pay scales, years of service, sliding figures around etc, and short term and long term you stand to be no worse off, then what do you care?
I don't but it's gotta really be there. Compounding and move forward in real terms.

[walesregent]

So here is a serious question to all SH and LH pilots reading this forum: what’s it matter if the pay freeze is officially broken or if it’s just “worked around” and still applicable on paper for QF IR to boast about? If you get your big pay rise but they carefully hide it by altering pay scales, years of service, sliding figures around etc, and short term and long term you stand to be no worse off, then what do you care?

Im neither of those things but, belonging to a group who has recently ‘stuck it’ to IR, I feel somewhat qualified to answer. I don’t begrudge anyone from seeking the best deal for their work group but accepting a work around deal that enables the sh*tful destructive bargaining tactics of IR is in no way equal to forcing them to write a deal that breaks the wages policy into a contract. One results in kicking the can down the road and other work groups to face exactly the same tactics we’ve all grown to hate, the other sets a useful precedent and possibly results in a meaningful purge in IR. I get that not every battle can be fought but this is probably the best opportunity to kill the hydra that has arisen in a long time.

[maggot]

Never heard anyone refer to the jump seat that way, I’m definitely going to start calling it that.
I feel the jump is more in the bdsm sphere

[gordonfvckingramsay]

If you get your big pay rise but they carefully hide it by altering pay scales, years of service, sliding figures around etc, and short term and long term you stand to be no worse off, then what do you care?

In the interests of accuracy, can we stop calling it a payrise? Any increase to pilot pay and conditions from today would be a minor step towards a pay correction. Pilots are out of pocket millions (individually) if they have been around since the early 90’s.

[Gas Chamber]

Im neither of those things but, belonging to a group who has recently ‘stuck it’ to IR, I feel somewhat qualified to answer. I don’t begrudge anyone from seeking the best deal for their work group but accepting a work around deal that enables the sh*tful destructive bargaining tactics of IR is in no way equal to forcing them to write a deal that breaks the wages policy into a contract. One results in kicking the can down the road and other work groups to face exactly the same tactics we’ve all grown to hate, the other sets a useful precedent and possibly results in a meaningful purge in IR. I get that not every battle can be fought but this is probably the best opportunity to kill the hydra that has arisen in a long time.

exactly. Who cares about their arbitrary wages policy. They only care as it’s linked to KPIs and their gross little bonus scheme.
unions should shove our wages policy down their lying pie holes.

[Beer Baron]

Getting caught up feeling like we need to “break the wage policy” is thinking with your heart rather than your head. An EA negotiation should be about achieving measurable outcomes that improve terms and conditions, not just venting your anger. Sticking it to your employer, breaking the wage policy or trashing the operation for no perceivable gain are emotional responses, but unlikely to be productive.

The company negotiators put a price on everything the pilots request/demand. If you ask for something that will cost Qantas tens of millions of dollars (ie. further pay rises to other employee groups) then they will expect that such a cost will be offset by stripping other conditions from YOUR EA. Sure you can press the issue and hold to your demands but Intractable Bargaining will shut you down in the end (as we’ve just seen).

So why not do what EFA, Jetstar and the engineers all did, appear to apply the pay freeze but put the pay back in elsewhere in the EA.

From the rumours going about, it seems like we may be able to use this wage policy to fix a myriad of major issues that have been dogging short haul for years but the company have never previously been willing to fix.

Focus on the content of the EA, not a policy or pent up anger.

[Ladloy]

Getting caught up feeling like we need to “break the wage policy” is thinking with your heart rather than your head. An EA negotiation should be about achieving measurable outcomes that improve terms and conditions, not just venting your anger. Sticking it to your employer, breaking the wage policy or trashing the operation for no perceivable gain are emotional responses, but unlikely to be productive.

The company negotiators put a price on everything the pilots request/demand. If you ask for something that will cost Qantas tens of millions of dollars (ie. further pay rises to other employee groups) then they will expect that such a cost will be offset by stripping other conditions from YOUR EA. Sure you can press the issue and hold to your demands but Intractable Bargaining will shut you down in the end (as we’ve just seen).

So why not do what EFA, Jetstar and the engineers all did, appear to apply the pay freeze but put the pay back in elsewhere in the EA.

From the rumours going about, it seems like we may be able to use this wage policy to fix a myriad of major issues that have been dogging short haul for years but the company have never previously been willing to fix.

Focus on the content of the EA, not a policy or pent up anger.
only works if there's sizeable gains in pay elsewhere which compound the same as normal payscales, and pays extra super, otherwise once again the younger crews get screwed once again. Also one rumour I heard was increasing the years of service payscales, which is great, but still, net zero for the new guy.

[walesregent]

Getting caught up feeling like we need to “break the wage policy” is thinking with your heart rather than your head. An EA negotiation should be about achieving measurable outcomes that improve terms and conditions, not just venting your anger. Sticking it to your employer, breaking the wage policy or trashing the operation for no perceivable gain are emotional responses, but unlikely to be productive.

The company negotiators put a price on everything the pilots request/demand. If you ask for something that will cost Qantas tens of millions of dollars (ie. further pay rises to other employee groups) then they will expect that such a cost will be offset by stripping other conditions from YOUR EA. Sure you can press the issue and hold to your demands but Intractable Bargaining will shut you down in the end (as we’ve just seen).

So why not do what EFA, Jetstar and the engineers all did, appear to apply the pay freeze but put the pay back in elsewhere in the EA.

From the rumours going about, it seems like we may be able to use this wage policy to fix a myriad of major issues that have been dogging short haul for years but the company have never previously been willing to fix.

Focus on the content of the EA, not a policy or pent up anger.

Yeah? NAA has flipped a client into a major (and well resourced) competitor that is taking its staff… and paying them 50% more. I’m not saying rolling strikes were the only reason for that, but they certainly didn’t hurt. We’ll see how this plays out but playing their game to try to get systemic change has never yielded results like that.

[Beer Baron]

Yeah? NAA has flipped a client into a major (and well resourced) competitor that is taking its staff… and paying them 50% more.
I’m sorry wales but I feel that what you describe still comes under the heading of “trashing the operation for no benefit”.
You may well have created a competitor for your employer (trashing the business) but that has not improved your EA one bit.
Is this new start-up going to take 240 ex-NAA pilots? If 20 pilots go to the new mob and leave the other 220 on a crap EA is that a well negotiated outcome?
After all, there have long been other better paid jobs out there for pilots who wanted to quit, creating one more option is not going to solve the problems at NAA unfortunately, it’s just another chance to leave.

[walesregent]

I’m sorry wales but I feel that what you describe still comes under the heading of “trashing the operation for no benefit”.
You may well have created a competitor for your employer (trashing the business) but that has not improved your EA one bit.
Is this new start-up going to take 240 ex-NAA pilots? If 20 pilots go to the new mob and leave the other 220 on a crap EA is that a well negotiated outcome?
After all, there have long been other better paid jobs out there for pilots who wanted to quit, creating one more option is not going to solve the problems at NAA unfortunately, it’s just another chance to leave.

We’ll probably have to settle on disagreeing here. I believe that if we had taken their offer, along with their very finest side letter/wages policy work around (which, incidentally, is not something they offered during negotiations), we’d be haemorrhaging staff out of every orifice even more so than we currently are because it would have been so far south of market rates. PIA might have been blunt but it shone a light on their toxic IR tactics which, IMO, are what are truly trashing the business- ask Chris Ellison. They clearly came to negotiations working to a higher objective (making an example of us, presumably) and no amount of savvy or nous from our very capable negotiators would have made them budge. At least now we have a viable alternative in the same base city for a sizeable number of employees which, one way or another, puts upward pressure on conditions. We also have a shot at a market rate contract being arbitrated.

Short haul may not have the exact set of negotiating conditions that we’ve had but there are plenty of advantages to be pressed here and this is the best shot you’ll ever get to stop being turkey slapped by IR every four years.

[Lapon]

It wasn't the Network pilots that trashed the operation, it was the management of the parent company.
As usual however it's the operational staff (and occasionally the passengers) that get the blame.

[No upgrade]

Network just another outsourced B scale, passively agreed to by the pilots of the parent company to protect themselves for a 3% payrise.

Good to see Network guys and gals trying to improve things, in contrast to the former that have trashed the entry to Q career beyond recognition.
Very sad.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Network just another outsourced B scale, passively agreed to by the pilots of the parent company
How do you figure that?

[Transition Layer]

Network just another outsourced B scale, passively agreed to by the pilots of the parent company to protect themselves for a 3% payrise.

Good to see Network guys and gals trying to improve things, in contrast to the former that have trashed the entry to Q career beyond recognition.
Very sad.

OK I’ll bite.

At what stage did mainline pilots agree to any facet of the Network operation, particularly Ts and Cs?

Network Aviation had half a dozen Brasilias and two F100s when it was purchased by QF in 2010 as a blocking move against Skywest. Not even in your wildest dreams could you envisage what it has become.

[Beer Baron]

We’ll probably have to settle on disagreeing here. I believe that if we had taken their offer, along with their very finest side letter/wages policy work around (which, incidentally, is not something they offered during negotiations), we’d be haemorrhaging staff out of every orifice even more so than we currently are because it would have been so far south of market rates.
Fair enough, we don’t need to agree on everything, I think you’ve got a pretty measured view on most of these issues.
I do question though when you say NAA weren’t offered a wage policy work around. I understood that the first 2 years of the voted on EA had a wage freeze but from Oct ‘22 to Oct ‘23 pilots were to receive a roughly 10% pay rise. (Have I got that right?) That seems like a pretty good way of taking a wage freeze but not really taking one.

Now I’m not suggesting the EA was good and should have been voted up, but in terms of how to deal with the wage freeze, I think your reps negotiated a pretty bloody good “work around”.

[No upgrade]

as a blocking move against Skywest.
Haha, and you seriously believed that?

​​​​​​​Not even in your wildest dreams could you envisage what it has become​​​​​​​
Like Impulse, Jetstar, Jetconnect, National Jet, and Alliance?

​​​​​​​At what stage did mainline pilots agree to any facet of the Network operation​​​​​​​
Next time you’re staring at the stars, look up what an ‘alter ego’ clause is before you vote yes to your next cash bonus. Been around for 30+ years. Not your problem?

[maggot]

What the hell are you on about and what's it to do with the SHEA?

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Most of us are home buyers, all of us ‘working people’. Despite the offical CPI since May 2022 10.9% the ABS has the inflation rate at 19.3% for working people. I’d imagine before May 2022 it would have been similar as well. When you look at the price of milk/bread/vegetables etc they have increased far more than 10% in the last few years. These are the most relevant figures for the upcoming short and long haul EBAs. An initial 20% is not a pay rise it’s just keeping up with actual inflation over last couple of years. Well even then probably not even keeping up in reality but a start.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/home-buyers-inflation-pain-almost-double-the-official-rate-20240501-p5fo2b.html

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Most of us are home buyers, all of us ‘working people’. Despite the offical CPI since May 2022 10.9% the ABS has the inflation rate at 19.3% for working people. I’d imagine before May 2022 it would have been similar as well. When you look at the price of milk/bread/vegetables etc they have increased far more than 10% in the last few years. These are the most relevant figures for the upcoming short and long haul EBAs. An initial 20% is not a pay rise it’s just keeping up with actual inflation over last couple of years. Well even then probably not even keeping up in reality but a start.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/home-buyers-inflation-pain-almost-double-the-official-rate-20240501-p5fo2b.html

Every worker in this country should currently be entitled to a 180% pay increase. That would keep us all up with real inflation. Also every politician and just about every corporate ceo in this country and well The West in general should be lined up against a trench or wall for treason.