Amelia Earhart radio transmissions

[LAM3A]

Hi,

Question if I may about how Amelia Earhart’s aircraft KHAQQ may have been referred to on radio transmissions before the current phonetic alphabet era. Would she have used different phonics or even the letters simply spelt out?

There are transcripts of the final radio calls from the aircraft but they all refer to “KHAQQ” without reference to any phonetic alphabet use if it was used at all.

Looking for advice for a project I’m working on. Thanks.

[Jhieminga]

I'm not sure that there would have been a real standard in those days, but from the British perspective:
By 1921, the RAF "Telephony Spelling Alphabet" had been adopted by all three armed services, and was then made mandatory for UK civil aviation, as announced in Notice to Airmen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_to_Airmen) Number 107.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_military_phonetic_spelling_alphabets#RAF_radiotelepho ny_spelling_alphabet

The question is whether there was a similar convention on the other side of the Atlantic. This was the first I could think of.

[Cornish Jack]

I started with the Able, Baker version and went through the confused transition in 56. There still remains the 'hangover' from pre 21, with Ack (as in Ack-Ack) and Toc (as in Toc H)

[teeteringhead]

From the late '60s flying training, I still recall some aged QFIs referring to the Queenie Nan How.......

[thnarg]

I’m far too young to answer the question but https://www.otrcat.com/think-it-is-plane-unidentified-radio-signals-associated-with-the-earhart-mystery provides some context to LAM3A’s quest.

[ShyTorque]

From the late '60s flying training, I still recall some aged QFIs referring to the Queenie Nan How.......


That reminded me of the rather formidable Mrs Pascoe!

[tonytales]

I think this is the definitive of what went wrong on Amelia Airheart's round the world flight. No answer to your question on phonetic codes,Amelia Didn’t Know Radio | Naval History Magazine (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=23536a98aa332d27JmltdHM9MTcxMDk3OTIwMCZpZ3VpZD0yYjQxMjczNi 01N2RiLTZiMWYtM2RlNy0zNDc3NTY3NjZhNWImaW5zaWQ9NTIwNQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2b412736-57db-6b1f-3de7-347756766a5b&psq=amelia+didn%27t+know+radio&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudXNuaS5vcmcvbWFnYXppbmVzL25hdmFsLWhpc3Rv cnktbWFnYXppbmUvMTk5My9kZWNlbWJlci9hbWVsaWEtZGlkbnQta25vdy1y YWRpbw&ntb=1)Almon Gray’s “Amelia Didn’t Know Radio,” Part II (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=83856996c3098c6eJmltdHM9MTcxMDk3OTIwMCZpZ3VpZD0yYjQxMjczNi 01N2RiLTZiMWYtM2RlNy0zNDc3NTY3NjZhNWImaW5zaWQ9NTI1NQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2b412736-57db-6b1f-3de7-347756766a5b&psq=amelia+didn%27t+know+radio&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9lYXJoYXJ0dHJ1dGgud29yZHByZXNzLmNvbS8yMDIzLzAx LzI2L2FsbW9uLWdyYXlzLWFtZWxpYS1kaWRudC1rbm93LXJhZGlvLXBhcnQt aWkv&ntb=1)

[EXDAC]

Here is one reference to USA phonetics with transition dates -

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/p/phonetic-alphabet-and-signal-flags.html

I learned the still current NATO/ICAO standard back in my late teens in the UK CCF. I do still remember the first radio amateur I heard on my crystal set. He was "george two fox queen pacific". I tracked him down and he helped me on my way to my unresticted G3 call.

[JustinHeywood]

I think this is the definitive of what went wrong on Amelia Airheart's round the world flight. No answer to your question on phonetic codes,Amelia Didn’t Know Radio | Naval History Magazine (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=23536a98aa332d27JmltdHM9MTcxMDk3OTIwMCZpZ3VpZD0yYjQxMjczNi 01N2RiLTZiMWYtM2RlNy0zNDc3NTY3NjZhNWImaW5zaWQ9NTIwNQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2b412736-57db-6b1f-3de7-347756766a5b&psq=amelia+didn%27t+know+radio&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudXNuaS5vcmcvbWFnYXppbmVzL25hdmFsLWhpc3Rv cnktbWFnYXppbmUvMTk5My9kZWNlbWJlci9hbWVsaWEtZGlkbnQta25vdy1y YWRpbw&ntb=1)Almon Gray’s “Amelia Didn’t Know Radio,” Part II (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=83856996c3098c6eJmltdHM9MTcxMDk3OTIwMCZpZ3VpZD0yYjQxMjczNi 01N2RiLTZiMWYtM2RlNy0zNDc3NTY3NjZhNWImaW5zaWQ9NTI1NQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2b412736-57db-6b1f-3de7-347756766a5b&psq=amelia+didn%27t+know+radio&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9lYXJoYXJ0dHJ1dGgud29yZHByZXNzLmNvbS8yMDIzLzAx LzI2L2FsbW9uLWdyYXlzLWFtZWxpYS1kaWRudC1rbm93LXJhZGlvLXBhcnQt aWkv&ntb=1)

Please excuse thread drift - The narrative described in the above link implies (very plausibly) that Earhart and Noonan survived a ditching close to shore. Her voice was heard and recognised, but the experienced operator could not make out her words.

Also this:

She was heard by the Nauru operator long after the plane would have run out of gas.

• Noonan survived. A man’s voice was distinctly heard on the “peculiar signal” by Midway. It was unintelligible.

• Either Earhart or Noonan, or both, were alive and with the plane at least until 0948 5 July 5 1937 (GMT). The peculiar signals were last heard then.

• The peculiar signals probably were coming from the eastern or southeastern part of the Marshall Islands.

[rog747]

Watch the movie ''Amelia'' - I am sure she refers in her frantic radio calls in some sort of ''alphabet'' and Queen Queen rings a bell....

[LAM3A]

Lots to consider! I’ll check out the movie that sounds very promising. Thanks all.

[EXDAC]

"King Harry Ace Queen Queen" seems to be correct for 1937. However, Able and How were formally introduced in 1941 and could have been in use in 1937. That would result in "King How Able Queen Queen".

[treadigraph]

"Queen Nan How" has stuck in my memory from reading something I guess - I know a Nevil Shute book - A Town Like Alice? - had similar phonetic alphabet renditions for the daily outback radio comms which was part of the plot.

(A is for 'orses, B for mutton...)

[longer ron]

Transmissions to/from Earhart were possible on both voice and Key (morse),weather info was always via Key - not sure if weather also on voice ?
It was an HF radio (High Frequency) so reception and transmission distances could vary enormously with weather and (say) altitude.
The full (?) transcripts are available online at......

https://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/digital/collection/earhart/id/3052

Gets interesting at page 041 but there is some important info on pages prior to that.

Edit - I forgot to say that one of the important infos was that Earhart apparently was not informed that the Navy had an HF 'Homer' Beacon on Howland specifically for her to use for navigation.

I have just skimmed through a few pages and appears that 'Tare','Victor' and 'Queen' used as phonetics

[LAM3A]

Looks like “King How Able Queen Queen” might have been the phonetics used. They are used in the movie and look to tie in with the common use at the time. Thanks for all your input!

[rog747]

AMELIA stars two-time Academy Award®-winner Hilary Swank as Amelia Earhart, the legendary aviatrix.
Also featuring Richard Gere (George Putnam) Ewan McGregor (Gene Vidal) and Christopher Eccleston as the Pan American Navigator, Fred Noonan.
Directed by Mira Nair, for Fox Searchlight Pictures 2009.

On June 1, 1937, aviator Amelia Earhart and her navigator Fred Noonan, start their attempt to circumnavigate the globe.


hilary swank amelia earhart movie trailer


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/292x219/art_amelia_courtesy_4f9d3153698952b030d57bf357c4fe8cc18b8302 .jpg

[treadigraph]

Oh... I thought it would be Pat Thrasher as Amelia and Rick Gillespie as Noonan/Putnam/Johnson/Et Al...

[Noyade]

I watched the movie Amelia early last year on Disney.
Monitoring the background on scenes which were meant to depict Miami - there appears to be an Antonov An-24 or 26 behind the front action.
Part of the movie was filmed in South Africa - would an Antonov have been seen there regularly?
See what you think...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x841/20230906_154747_f1df8a6387dd6f7f3863c31b4f37a5b4f469a831.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x824/20230906_154759_069a3772a4be1fd64bdb803fecb5317d8ca357fc.jpg

[treadigraph]

Bernard Chabbert flew (presumably) his Electra in the film - presumably ferried it down to Cape Town which must have been a fun trip. Certainly plenty of Antonov twins visible at airfields all over Africa on Google Earth, they seem to have replaced antique Western types as tramp freighters.

[rog747]

Good spot there re the modern Antonov....
I had never noticed that...

I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. Hilary Swank was a great choice to play Amelia. The photography was splendid with some pretty cinematography moments, the clothing represented the period beautifully and I learned that Amelia took Eleanor Roosevelt up in a plane and gave her a thrill and let Eleanor handle the controls.

Numerous period aircraft were obtained to provide authenticity, including the use of two replica aircraft, a Lockheed Vega and Fokker F.VIIb/3m Tri-motor Friendship (with limited ability to run up engines and taxi).
The Lockheed 12A Electra Junior (F-AZLL) used alongside another Electra Junior, that filled in for the much rarer Lockheed Electra 10E that Earhart used.
Despite efforts to faithfully replicate the period, numerous historical inaccuracies were noted in some reviews.

After filming, the two replica aircraft featured in the Earhart transatlantic flights were donated to museums. The Lockheed Vega is now in the collection of the San Diego Air & Space Museum, while the Fokker F. VIIB/3M tri-motor is now housed at the Canadian Bushplane Heritage Centre in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario where it was unveiled in 2009 with a local Amelia Earhart reenactor Kathie Brosemer recounting the story of Earhart's flight in 1928.

So, in the end I really liked this Movie, but it was not received with much critical acclaim, and there were a few notable historical inaccuracies of which you have spotted this one.

Its a very pleasant watch however, on a winter's afternoon in front of the Tele...LOL

[Discorde]

There were very few (if any) tricycle gear large aircraft in existence in the late 1930s. However it's unlikely many cinema goers would be upset by this minor anachronistic imperfection.

[Jhieminga]

"Queen Nan How" has stuck in my memory from reading something I guess - I know a Nevil Shute book - A Town Like Alice? - had similar phonetic alphabet renditions for the daily outback radio comms which was part of the plot.

(A is for 'orses, B for mutton...)
Slight tread drift... A couple of Shute's novels include radio comms, both the aeronautical variety and the outback version. He manages to avoid mentioning aircraft call signs in most of his books that deal with aviation, but when a call sign does get mentioned it is usually in the 1942-1955 RAF phonetic alphabet. Same for the outback communications if I'm not mistaken. So Queen Nan How may well have turned up in one of his books. His own Percival Proctor V that was used for his UK-Australia flight was known as 'Item Willie" (G-AKIW).

[treadigraph]

Slight tread drift...

I like it! :ok:

[EXDAC]

So Queen Nan How may well have turned up in one of his books.

Ok, but perhaps more likely as an altimeter setting than an aircraft callsign.

[Ombinda]

I watched the movie Amelia early last year on Disney.
Monitoring the background on scenes which were meant to depict Miami - there appears to be an Antonov An-24 or 26 behind the front action.
Part of the movie was filmed in South Africa - would an Antonov have been seen there regularly?
See what you think...


First of all - well spotted!

I remember that some scenes were shot at Rand Airport. There were 2 ZS registered AN32's there that I recall (have not been there in 12 years or so)

[meleagertoo]

What puzzles me is how any transmission could have been made hours after an aircraft ditched in the sea, or even if it crashed/crashlanded on an atoll (in which case it would have been found).
Earhart was hardly a technical person, quite the opposite in fact and by all accounts had very little understanding of radio, let alone tech ability at salvaging and jury-rigging crashed or salt-water soaked ones, an all but impossible task for anyone no matter how expert.
I've been reading that according to photographic evidence the underbelly antenna was probably lost during taxi and takeoff from Lae. How has this been factored into the theoreys? Surely no antenna means no comms at all?

[DH106]

I've been reading that according to photographic evidence the underbelly antenna was probably lost during taxi and takeoff from Lae. How has this been factored into the theoreys? Surely no antenna means no comms at all?

I believe the under antenna was the 'receive' antenna, the 'transmit' one was the 'V' shaped one going from above the cockpit to each of the tail fins.
This would explain why she was clearly able to transmit, but never seemed to acknowledge receiving any transmissions for her.

[Topcliffe Kid]

Reminds me of an ex RN telegraphist I used to work with who used to anounce the end of our shift with 'well that's it then Vic Ack' (VA - end of transmission)

[EXDAC]

Reminds me of an ex RN telegraphist I used to work with who used to anounce the end of our shift with 'well that's it then Vic Ack' (VA - end of transmission)


Interesting. I have always know that prosign as SK. If you know morse you'll see it is the same as a prosign runs the letters together.
..._._