Old Man Time

[ravenx]

I've been watching (and occasionally posting on) this Prrune thing for some time now and the responses from apparently "knowledgable" people seem to vary considerably.

Someone will ask the question "am I too old at forty to start my ATPL" and the responses will be "no my friend did this and my friend did that and got a job" etc etc. Then in a different thread you see people saying "38 / 39 is the cut off age after that airlines won't employ you". I personally know of a guy who started commercial flying at 49 and ended up as a first officer on 737's, but that was sometime ago - have things changed ?

The same confusing answers come from the question "will I ever get a job". Some people say "forget it the industry won't be picking up for many years yet", the Ryanair site seem to be indicating they will be looking for hundreds of aircrew in the future years. Other people respond with "I can see the industry will pick up" etc etc

Are the people answering misinformed, negative, or simply trying to put others off (as has been suggested on a couple of the threads).

I know there is no right or wrong answer to these questions, but there must be a concensus of opinion one way the other.

So come on geezers what's your take on this - and if you do answer with something definite back it up with something more than "well that's what I think" if you can.

Might also be good to hear from some people who aren't necessarily doing the standard pasenger flying but are earning money perhaps from ferry flight, crop spraying, corporate work, aerial observation, cargo flying or anything really. I'd be interested to hear if their bit of the industry is picking up or slowing down etc.

[MJR]

Ravex

A commercial flying career is just like the lottery you have to be in it to win at it.

Too Old? well thats the billion dollar question.

There is no doubt regardless of Sept 11th or another Gulf war commercial aviation is set to grow considerably over the next 15 years.

Commercial aviation is a very much supply and demand business at the moment there are too many wannabes and not enough jobs. This wont change quickly but it will eventually.

Simplistically you only have to look at the growth of the world population and the increase in the standard of living. Nowadays people want two foreign holidays a year rather than one and so on.

You may never Fly a heavy for one of the majors but through persistance you will hopefully one day get a job flying something for someone.

There is a lot of misinformation on this forum amongst some extremely valid comment. It is down to you to read, absorb and make your own judgement of whether this is for you. There is no defintive answer to your question that is why you cant find one apart from things will get better!

My personal philosophy being no spring chicken myself is I would rather try and fail than not try at all.

ta ta

MJR

[Elvis21]

ravenx

This is a forum, it is made up of many people who have opinions. Lots of people have lots of different opinions.

Most of the questions put on here are like "how long is a piece of string". It all depends. You are never to going to get a concensus on things like this. It is the difference of opinion that makes this such a rich source of information. :D

[RVR800]

Many sponsored schemes will only take younger people

Airlines prefer to train their own people when they are young
ignoring the pool of labour already trained up

The chances of employment without high hours when you
are middle aged are significantly reduced.

Look at the Flying schools and ask youself why Joe Bloggs
with all the bells and whistles is not with an airline - its
often not by choice. The salaries are often derisory.

Often the CAAFU examiners have never flown multi-crew!
Is it because they prefer GA or because they are too old?

Like it or not this is a very competitive industry and of the c11,000
ATPL holders in the UK and c4,000 CPL holders you will find that many are still at the bottom of the food chain

The CAA know how many of these hold multi-crew ratings
but strangely no information on this is present on their web site
We should be told.

I know of a guy who got his first airline job at 53 he was
a high houred 509 instructor with a lot of multi time.

[Field In Sight]

I am 31 now and should have my fATPL by March with FI(R). I think this is also pushing the age limits for being competitive with regards to acceptance by an airline.

However, I understand that the road ahead will be long and difficult for me but also for everybody else younger or older. I also believe that when the market is good, it will be good for everybody that is qualified to apply for these jobs.

Fortunately I will not be one of those people that has "bet the bank" on their fATPL training but I will still be expecting a half decent living out of any eventual job.

[Elvis21]

Field in Sight,

This is just my humble opinion but I would say you were at a good age for the airlines. You have some life experience, not wet behind the ears and even if you retire early at 55 you will still be able to give them well over 20 yrs service.

Go for it my friend:D

[AMEX]

Ravenx

In this industry and from the day you begin flying, you make your own experience in making Your own decisions and no one else's. It will cost some us only money, others their lives but for most it will be part of the learning process that only ends the day your career ends.
So ! To answer your question, if you don't do it yourself, you will never really know.

How about that for an informed comment ? ;)

[Field In Sight]

Elvis21 cheers for the encouragement.

As you say, I am going for it.

I don't expect to get an airline job straight away, but I do expect the job situation to improve over the next 5 years.
By then I would be 36, hence the slight concern over age, as it is a factor to consider.

Somewhere along the way airline hiring minimums will drop to match the hours that I will have accrued.

However, I am not looking too far ahead as I still have to pass my last set of exams in 8 weeks time, then the CPL etc, etc.
So it's one step at a time and eventually I'll get there.

[STANDTO]

RAVENX

Some useful stuff on my post Opportunity........

I have concerns about age etc, but I think that unless I do something, I am not going to be fulfilled in life. However, because I have the wife and kids to think about, am going to keep working whilst I do it, and when the job does come along then jump ship,reasonably seamlessly albeit with a drop in pay.

People tell me my dad was still a young man when he died at 61.........to me, that says it all.

[ravenx]

Thanks for the responses everyone. For once I have found a post where everyone seems to agree on one thing - and to be honest it was for the me the most important thing - "go for it and then you'll find out". so there you go there was one concensus of opinion :D

This is what I'm doing and if you had all said - you're too old, I'd have still gone for it. Might not succeed but I'l have fun trying.

I am also one of those people who won't have bet the bank on trying (doesn't make spending the best part of 50K any easier mind you).

Shame no one doing perhaps what we may consider an "unusual" job replied.

Does anyone know if crop spraying is popular in this country - you never hear much about it.

[LowNSlow]

ravenex, there is very little crop spraying in the UK, it died off in the Eighties with the advent of dedicated slim wheeled (to flatten less crops) spayers. What there is doesn't keep all the ag experienced chaps flying.

I'm based at a former ag strip and have met some of the pilots who were based there. Some of them still do some ag flying but it's also interspersed with CAA air tests, ferrying, air-taxiing etc. A couple fly corporate jets and one is a 74 captain. As these chaps are around my age (45) and have shelves full of log books, I'm not going to spend thousands of pounds to become an inexperienced ATPL and slide into the bottom of a deep experience pool when it's taken me until now to get closer to the surface of my current pond! After all, if I did get an ATPL within 2 years I would only have 13 years to offer a potential airline employer or I'd have to go contracting in an industry that I am very unfamiliar with.

However, I did seriously think about it until quite recently and received a lot of positive encouragement from fellow Ppruners. At the moment though I'm quite happy poodling around in my Auster and servicing my mortgage. Boring I know and probably quite negative but that's the way it is at the moment. :)

[Soggy]

Anything said on this forum should be taken with a massive pinch of salt!!
What is certain is that anyone on it is wanting to fly but not everyone does. Yet alot like to be or think themselves knowledgeable. The best place to get info like that is at your local friendly flying club of airport (when i say airport I dont mean Heathrow I ean somewhere like Fife, Compton Abbas, Biggin Hill etc).
They may give you a better indication.

Still all positive comments do motivate dont they??:) :)

[scroggs]

Ravenx

All of the replies you read to any thread are purely opinions. A great many of the contributors to this forum have little experience in the industry to back up their opinions, which are therefore no more than a 'gut feeling' - and about as useful! However, it all goes to present an interesting discussion, and it's up to you to filter the rubbish from the good advice. And, as you said yourself, there are no absolutely right answers.

[mikeo]

I have the same problems - money / age / opportunities. Most 'normal' investment decisions to spend GBP50,000 would be taken very seriously using at least a payback calculation or better still a Net Present Value (NPV) calculation to take the time value of money into account. This would show if you would ever make the investment worth while in terms of cash and lost opportunity costs.

However, wanting to be a commercial pilot goes beyond a 'normal' investment decision as it is based on your desire and wishes (and funds).

Put it this way if I won the lottery then I wouldn't hesitate to give up my job and convert my PPL(a) to get a CPL etc. and blow the GBP 50K. I'm 43 with family and mortgage to support so any decision to do this for me would be huge one and I would want more certainty that the industry would pick up - I think it inevitably will owing to travelling patterns and the cyclic nature of business.:D