Lockheed P-80 compared to Gloster Meteor and DH Vampire

[tonytales]

Always wondered how the American Lockheed P-80 (F-80 later) compared to the British Gloster Meteor and DH Vampires of similar vintage? All three had long careers and morphed into night fighters and trainers as well.
The Republic F-84 was a bit later but was assigned mostly to ground attack.

[Pypard]

The P-84 was an escort fighter and only later identified mainly for ground attack.

[tonytales]

You are correct. in saying the P-84 was originally used as an escort fighter. I remember USAF SAC B-36 lugging around straight wing F-84 under their belly's and the attempt to transport them on the wing tips (Tom Tip?). That obviously made them escort fighters at first. Only later did they take on their ground attack function much as the P-47 did in WW-II.
However, I was really interested in how the P-80 would have fared against its contemporaries, the Meteor and Vampire. I have never seen them compared anywhere.
All 3 aircraft have comparable max speeds and Mach limits so I think it comes down to overall maneuverability, structural strength etc.

[DHfan]

I wonder if "Winkle" Brown flew them all?
It wouldn't be a direct comparison, unless he chose to say so, but I know he flew the Meteor and the Vampire and I'd be extremely surprised if he didn't fly the P-80.

The next question is - which book?

[brakedwell]

It was along time ago when I flew the single and dual seat Vampire and Meteors, Some RAF Canadian trained Shooting star pilots arrived at RAF Swinderby for UK acclimatisation courses on the Vampire. I remember them saying the Vampire was a lovely little aeroplane which was nicer and lighter to fly than the Shooting Star, but the UK was much more difficult than Canada because of all the Railway Lines , Roads and poor weather, which made navigation difficult! I preferred the Meteor Eight, which seemed more solid and stable and had slightly better performance than the Vampire. Wing loading look interesting with the Vampire at 39.4 lbs/sq foot, the Meteor 44.1 and the F80 51.3.

[Brewster Buffalo]

...................... I remember USAF SAC B-36 lugging around straight wing F-84 under their belly's and the attempt to transport them on the wing tips (Tom Tip?).

The projects were TIP-TOW and Tom-Tom. I believe that TIP-TOW related to the B-29 with a F-84 on each wing tip and Tom-Tom to the B-36 equivalent. The B-29/F-84 combination crashed with loss of all crew.
The B-36/F-84 experiment was cancelled a few months after this crash.

[radar101]

The next question is - which book?

It is in the list at the back of Wings on my Sleeve but not in the text.

[Jhieminga]

I'm guessing the P-80 would be in 'Wings of the Weird and Wonderful vol.2', but I've got vol.1 here....
Edit: I was wrong, it is not in vol.2. I found a screenshot of the contents of that one online. It could be in 'Testing for Combat', I'll need to find my copy. Vol.1 does cover the Vampire and Meteor, although he mostly describes the exotic variants.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1381x829/screenshot_2024_03_16_at_22_38_53_rare_photos_of_first_p_80_ visiting_uk_bovingdon_1945__5f47f14db953c2ad4f2d6109b711c8d5 859f9345.png
Extracted from Key Aero Forum. Lockheed P-80 44-83026

I've never put this on our Bovingdon thread because doubt was raised on the Key Forum that it was thought to be unlikely that the aircraft would be flown from Burtonwood to Bovingdon and back on its first test flight after re-assembly. (It suffered an in-flight fire and crashed on its second test). I would be very interested if anybody can confirm that it did visit Bovingdon, perhaps for top brass to inspect, not beyond the bounds of possibility . The provenance of the photograph is Col Henry L Badham who was Station Commander at Bovingdon. John Young lists in his diary a P- 80 as being seen at Bovingdon but no date, mark or service number is given. Further interesting link here: https://laituk.org/YP-80A%20%2044-83026.htm

[DHfan]

Grrrr!! Totally irrelevant but Bovingdon isn't in London, it's in Hertfordshire.

Despite my current location, I'm Hertfordshire born and bred. Quite a lot of people, and journalists in particular, have either never heard of it, confuse it with Herefordshire or just call it London.

[Quemerford]

deleted

[Asturias56]

Grrrr!! Totally irrelevant but Bovingdon isn't in London, it's in Hertfordshire.

Despite my current location, I'm Hertfordshire born and bred. Quite a lot of people, and journalists in particular, have either never heard of it, confuse it with Herefordshire or just call it London.

Its from A US press release or publication - hence the "London, England" line - like Paris, France. You're lucky they got the right country never mind bothering about counties

[blind pew]

Tom-tit is Cockney rhyming slang.although could be relevant if one got too close to a wing tip.

[Allan Lupton]

Grrrr!! Totally irrelevant but Bovingdon isn't in London, it's in Hertfordshire.

Despite my current location, I'm Hertfordshire born and bred. Quite a lot of people, and journalists in particular, have either never heard of it, confuse it with Herefordshire or just call it London.
Quite so and it's Bovingdon, not Bovington which was/is a tank-training place in Dorset and has a museum to remind us of that.

[chevvron]

The presence of an A20 seems to rule it out as Bovingdon, the CCRC used mostly B17s. Any ideas on the '9' on the fin of the A20?
Bovington is where T E Shaw met his end.

[DHfan]

Quite so and it's Bovingdon, not Bovington which was/is a tank-training place in Dorset and has a museum to remind us of that.

Indeed, and like many others I used to get them mixed up too, until it was pointed out to me that it was "T" for tank.

[chevvron]

Another thought; what fuel did these early jets burn? Did they have a special bowser for kerosene trucked in (unlikely for just a one off flight to Bovingdon) or did they burn AVGAS? It would have had to re-fuel if it landed at Bovingdon as those early jets had short endurance.
Why was it taxying on the grass which would have been soggy at that time of year and such a precious aircraft would have sucked FOD into the intakes; there's plenty of hard surface at Bovingdon.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

I quite agree with your last observations chevvron in respect of fuel availability and the state of the airfield. It doesn't look like Bovingdon to me which is one reason why I never bothered to mention it on the Bovingdon Thread. In respect of Douglas A-20 Bostons/Havocs their presence at Bovingdon is mentioned in John Young's Diary in 1943 and 1945. Incidentally the type was based at Bovingdon probably a single example - quoting from that thread: 'A Flight' 8th Air Force HQ Squadron at Bovingdon was I suppose the equivalent of a British Comms Squadron. During The War the following types were used by 'A Flight' at Bovingdon. Beechcraft Expeditor, Bell Aircobra, Cessna Bobcat, Curtiss Tomahawk, Douglas Boston, Douglas Havoc, Fairchild Argus, Lockheed Lightning, Martin Marauder, North American Texan and Republican Thunderbolt.

[tonytales]

It's interesting that I don't remember Eric "Winkle" Brown ever describe the P-80. I have read, I think, all his books but, being 90, no longer have access to them. I don't believe the Canadians ever used the P-80/F-80 itself. They did produce a variant called the "Silver Star" which was a RR Nene powered version of the Lockheed T-33. 656 built (Wiki).
With the extensively modified Lockheed T2V Sea Star 150 built, the T-33/Silver Star were probably the most produced trainer jet ever produced.
Still, which was a better fyghter jet, the Gloster Meteor, The DH Vampire ir the P-80?

[brakedwell]

Best one? It very likely depended on the pilot flying the type.

[Jhieminga]

Another thought; what fuel did these early jets burn?
From: https://ethw.org/Jet_Fuel :
The first jet engines were developed between 1939 and 1941 in Germany[1] (https://ethw.org/Jet_Fuel#cite_note-1) and Great Britain.[2] (https://ethw.org/Jet_Fuel#cite_note-2) The early experimental flights were accomplished by burning hydrogen, gasoline (https://ethw.org/Gasoline), diesel, and kerosene for illumination. Eventually, only lamp kerosene and car gasoline were used in the final prototype flights. However, gasoline presented a major problem: at the time, it had a low flashpoint[3] (https://ethw.org/Jet_Fuel#cite_note-3) which made fires much more likely in case of accident.

[longer ron]

Right from the start Whittle used/specified kerosene as the fuel for his jet engines.
And yes there were special bowsers for aviation kerosene available for the early jets.
I was trying to remember if I had read that there was an RAE Aircraft with a kerosene tank also available to fly quickly to any location if one of the early development jets landed away from 'home' due to low fuel ?

[chevvron]

I was trying to remember if I had read that there was an RAE Aircraft with a kerosene tank also available to fly quickly to any location if one of the early development jets landed away from 'home' due to low fuel ?
I doubt if there was room in either the E28/39 or 'Land Crab' (Vampire) for an extra fuel tank with alternate fuel but the Meteor, having its engines in the wings, probably had room in the fuselage if there was ever one fitted.
Arthur C Clarke related a tale in his wartime novel 'Glidepath' (based on some elements of fact) where a 'Meteor' landed away at an airfield in 'Cornwall'; I vaguely recall he called this airfield 'St Erryn'.
Whatever, if a jet aircraft had to land 'away' from base during this period, they would have to refuel with something to get it home because all that would be available would be AVGAS (unless there just happened to be somewhere which had a bulk supply of domestic paraffin nearby).

[DHfan]

I know virtually nothing about gas turbines, but I do know that the Vipers in the Shackleton MR.3 ran on Avgas because it was carried for the Griffons.

I "may" have read that they could only run on it for a limited time, possibly because of jet pipe temperatures. On the other hand, that could be complete gibberish.

St Erryn sounds quite feasible as a minor adjustment of RNAS St Merryn, near Padstow.

[longer ron]

I doubt if there was room in either the E28/39 or 'Land Crab' (Vampire) for an extra fuel tank with alternate fuel but the Meteor, having its engines in the wings, probably had room in the fuselage if there was ever one fitted.


Sorry if I didn't make myself clear Chevvy - I meant a 'Hack' aircraft with a kerosene tank - you know something like an old Wellington etc.

[longer ron]

I know virtually nothing about gas turbines, but I do know that the Vipers in the Shackleton MR.3 ran on Avgas because it was carried for the Griffons.
I "may" have read that they could only run on it for a limited time, possibly because of jet pipe temperatures. On the other hand, that could be complete gibberish.
.

A jet engine can run on almost any fuel such as gasoline,diesel or kerosene - may need slight burner nozzle mod ? to run happily on petrol.
The american jet fuel (JP4) was 50/50 petrol/gasoline until they saw sense and changed to kerosene in 1995 (?) to JP8.

[Allan Lupton]

I know virtually nothing about gas turbines, but I do know that the Vipers in the Shackleton MR.3 ran on Avgas because it was carried for the Griffons.
I "may" have read that they could only run on it for a limited time, possibly because of jet pipe temperatures. On the other hand, that could be complete gibberish.

I can't recall the detail but during my time at Hatfield ('56-'93) there was a report that a 125 had been refuelled with AVGAS as nothing else was available. It went well and it seemed that the insides of the tailpipes went the tasteful grey that we motorists knew and loved in those days of leaded petrol

[chevvron]

St Erryn sounds quite feasible as a minor adjustment of RNAS St Merryn, near Padstow.
Yes I thought that too. Wish I still had my copy, I'd like to read it again; I think it was published under at least one alternative title,.

[chevvron]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear Chevvy - I meant a 'Hack' aircraft with a kerosene tank - you know something like an old Wellington etc.
Sounds entirely feasible; I had personal experience of the RAE techies innovating and they were superb at it.

[pax britanica]

I lived near Bovingdon , near not close and still in Herts and have vague memories of military pistons heading to or from the airfield. QQ has a great list that would have been fantastic to see for variety.

I was intrigued to see the last one on the list which was presumably there to fight for lower taxes and immigration control as being RepublicAN Thunderbolt=probably predictive text . Maybe Trump will try and steal the phrase I am am sure he would like to be seen as a Republican Thunderbolt