CCTV cameras in flying school aircraft

[Runaway Gun]

I see a Flying School are fitting CCTV cameras in the cockpit, on a trial basis.

“..cockpit cameras will record at all stages of aircraft operation, and the data will be accessible for download to senior management when aircraft are within router range, meaning that SD cards won't have to be physically removed.”

I wonder if students or instructors can refuse the use?

[nomess]

What’s the point. You make mistakes as students and you make mistakes as a 737 Skipper. Personally, having Big brother watching and judging is extremely dangerous for decision making. Imagine a culture where people are called into an office and blasted over a playback video. Keep it in the simulator. Are they Professional Pilots or Actors?

Please name and shame the place involved.

[TBM-Legend]

So we come back after a training session and use the video to debrief. Great idea.

some complainents regaled against CVR’s I do recall that have proven to be valuable in establishing what happened in accidents.

[compressor stall]

Is it the flying school whose - as the story goes - foreign students were caught at a country airfield on a navex with their aircraft engines running getting their “hours”, whilst they played soccer nearby?

[blind pew]

Tried to get them installed in our simulators and crew luggage area 30 years ago..sadly the company didn’t like the idea and the dual standards along with thefts continued. Video most of my flights now including the odd crash..helps to see what I did wrong..great training aid. As to decision process in the cockpit if one is professional and capable it shouldn’t be a problem.

[Capn Bloggs]

some complainents regaled against CVR’s I do recall that have proven to be valuable in establishing what happened in accidents.
CVR for accident investigation is a different kettle of fish.

[TBM-Legend]

A video would be a step forward in accident investigation

[NZFlyingKiwi]

We used to put a camera in the aircraft for solo aerobatic sorties only, but more from the point of view of figuring out how to debrief what actually went wrong for the student when their loop or roll didn't work and they don't know why.

[Squawk7700]

Eurocopters come with cameras now, as you’ll have seen from the recent Microflite crash report.

[krismiler]

If they want to fly airliners they need to get used to being monitored. The CVR records everything you say and the FDR records everything you do. Any incident can be replayed on a laptop showing all the instruments and the profile flown, you can’t argue with an impartial record showing exact indications of what occurred.

[Lead Balloon]

But there are some very hairy-chested laws about the uses to which CVR and FDR information may be put and must not be put. Not so with other recordings (as some ‘media influencers’ and others have discovered).

[43Inches]

Is it the flying school whose - as the story goes - foreign students were caught at a country airfield on a navex with their aircraft engines running getting their “hours”, whilst they played soccer nearby?

That school no longer exists. And yes, that is pretty much what happened, caught by the CFI flying over said field.

[LeadSled]

Is it the flying school whose - as the story goes - foreign students were caught at a country airfield on a navex with their aircraft engines running getting their “hours”, whilst they played soccer nearby?
That ain't original, even used to happen in the old CAF.
Tootle pip!!

[megan]

Even done in a very reputable air force.

[cbradio]

That ain't original, even used to happen in the old CAF.
Tootle pip!!

he's baaaack!! :)

[mikewil]

If they want to fly airliners they need to get used to being monitored. The CVR records everything you say and the FDR records everything you do. Any incident can be replayed on a laptop showing all the instruments and the profile flown, you can’t argue with an impartial record showing exact indications of what occurred.

Oh come on, what a load of BS.

Those who fly airliners aren't actually being monitored by the CVR & FDR, unless the airline is pulling them out after each flight to retrieve the data?
Would airline guys and girls really be happy if airlines were doing this so they could performance manage their pilots or critique every aspect of their operation on the flight deck, I don't think they would...

There is a big difference between a FDR/CVR recording which would be retrieved only after an accident/major incident and a camera recording everything and then having it retrieved after each flight by wireless means, then to be used by anyone with access to it like management types who have a beef against someone.

[Mach E Avelli]

Oh come on, what a load of BS.

Those who fly airliners aren't actually being monitored by the CVR & FDR, unless the airline is pulling them out after each flight to retrieve the data?
Would airline guys and girls really be happy if airlines were doing this so they could performance manage their pilots or critique every aspect of their operation on the flight deck, I don't think they would...

There is a big difference between a FDR/CVR recording which would be retrieved only after an accident/major incident and a camera recording everything and then having it retrieved after each flight by wireless means, then to be used by anyone with access to it like management types who have a beef against someone.
Airline pilots are continually performance monitored by data transmitted to Big Brother HQ. Any speed, bank angle, g force etc exceedance is known immediately and followed up by maintenance or safety management.
Using video technology in the training environment not only aids debriefing of students, used properly it can be useful to improve instruction techniques.
It would not be in the interests of a commercial flight school or airline to use recording devices to penalise their students, instructors or pilots.. Any unreasonable use would surely result in loss of business at best and litigation at worst.
Those with nothing to hide should have nothing to fear.

[Ixixly]

Geez some people here jump straight to being enraged without a single thought, how about we try looking at this logically? Approximately how many of a Students flight sequences are Solo? Half? So half of their flights are already monitored, thusly no big deal at all. The other half? Do you think the Flight School is going to have someone sit there and monitor every single flight video recording? You can barely get most of them to spring for paying their instructors in the first place! This is a nothing burger, the recordings are going to be there in case they suspect something really odd has occurred and they feel it warrants the extra attention. Personally, I think it's a great idea, Student bangs up an Aircraft, perhaps they come back saying they hit a hairy situation or were asked to call ATC then it allows the Instructors to do their job more efficiently, now instead of trying to sit down and get the Student to try and explain what they missed or didn't know they can go through the recording with them, point out exactly what was missed or done incorrectly and brief them on what to do better next time, you know, like they're literally being paid to do!

To those of you who think that your CVR/FDR is the only data collected on you during your Flights, welcome to the real world, they're collecting all the data on your flights that they possibly can and you seem to be conveniently forgetting the person sitting beside you the entire time, the rest of the crew, all the passengers, ATC and any joe blow at home grabbing the ADSB data and piecing it together for whatever YouTube channel they have.

This all conveniently ignores the fact that if they misused it they'd open themselves up to being taken to court as well.

Honestly though, I expect them to throw this in the bin after a short trial period anyway, it'll probably end up being too expensive to be valuable and not reliable enough either, this is more than likely a company trying to trial their product in the real world and finding someone willing to let them do it for free so figured "Why not".

[Global Aviator]

Not to mention the CCTV on aprons around the world and now the brilliant airport cams in Oz.

Big brother is always watching.

I know of one bloke who got pinged lying about something when the apron CCTV was viewed.

[megan]

Big brother is always watchingReminded of the story of the owner of a twin turbo prop ringing the company to whom it was leased, and asking why the aircraft was currently flying at XXX hundred knots at a extremely, and redicuously, low altitude. Boys just want to have fun?

[deja vu]

Oh come on, what a load of BS.

Those who fly airliners aren't actually being monitored by the CVR & FDR, unless the airline is pulling them out after each flight to retrieve the data?
Would airline guys and girls really be happy if airlines were doing this so they could performance manage their pilots or critique every aspect of their operation on the flight deck, I don't think they would...

There is a big difference between a FDR/CVR recording which would be retrieved only after an accident/major incident and a camera recording everything and then having it retrieved after each flight by wireless means, then to be used by anyone with access to it like management types who have a beef against someone.
I can tell you for a fact that QARs and CVRs were being pulled and monitored on a regular basis, usually at the end of a days work, in my old outfit 20 years ago. Crews were frequently being asked to appear for explanation. So much so that a crew notice was put out threatening anyone who pushed the erase button on the CVR, no incident or accident required.

[Capn Bloggs]

I can tell you for a fact that QARs and CVRs were being pulled and monitored on a regular basis, usually at the end of a days work, in my old outfit 20 years ago.
​​​​​​​CVRs? Which company?

[krismiler]

A flight data monitoring program is in effect in most airlines, all data from the FDRs is downloaded and analysed. This is used to identify trends and devise an appropriate response, eg focusing on specific areas in recurrent training or putting restrictions in place. This is anonymous however certain events will automatically flag up, such as a GPWS warning, unstabilised approach, overweight landing, speed exceedence etc. Raise a flag and you will be identified resulting in an invitation for tea and biscuits, some events are mandatory reports to the authority which are far more serious.

[Martinflyer]

Great idea! We have cameras in our flight simulators that can be used during debriefs so why not this.

[43Inches]

Great idea! We have cameras in our flight simulators that can be used during debriefs so why not this.

Using them for debriefs is a great idea, using them for discipline and underhanded control of staff is another. There must be solid policy on how and when the images should be used, and after what period they should be destroyed, otherwise, it can be used against you when you least expect it. You have to be very careful with regards to the law on this, as most of it is continually changing. You don't want to be hauled in for charges on something that happened 20 years prior because the images still exists and you are being charged on the new eras laws for another eras mistake.

[Lead Balloon]

I can tell you for a fact that QARs and CVRs were being pulled and monitored on a regular basis, usually at the end of a days work, in my old outfit 20 years ago. Crews were frequently being asked to appear for explanation. So much so that a crew notice was put out threatening anyone who pushed the erase button on the CVR, no incident or accident required.Few crew would understand that pushing the 'erase' button on the CVR does not, of itself, actually erase the CVR. A number of other logic gates have to be closed, too...

[Lead Balloon]

A flight data monitoring program is in effect in most airlines, all data from the FDRs is downloaded and analysed. This is used to identify trends and devise an appropriate response, eg focusing on specific areas in recurrent training or putting restrictions in place. This is anonymous however certain events will automatically flag up, such as a GPWS warning, unstabilised approach, overweight landing, speed exceedence etc. Raise a flag and you will be identified resulting in an invitation for tea and biscuits, some events are mandatory reports to the authority which are far more serious.Those voluntarily created records would not attract the same protections as OBRs do in the TSI Act and equivalents OS. It'll come to a head, one way or the other, eventually.