Uk Level Capping

[Nogbad the Bad]

Just a word about the level capping that is becoming prevalent within London airspace.

Please, if you are capped, try not to moan at the controller. The level capping is done to keep the New en-Route Centre (Swanwick) sectors that have to be "band-boxed" at a manageable level. Usually, if the controllers on those sectors are able to offer higher, they will.

None of us "downstairs" like to keep aircraft artificially low (it clogs up the lower levels for a start !), and we fully realise the penalties involved in doing so.

If you DO wish to complain, please level it at NATS Management who went ahead with the opening of the New en-Route centre (Swanwick) knowing that they did not have to staff to man it properly.

This situation is likely to last for quite some time. :rolleyes:

[machone]

Ok so what is the email or website address for the complaints.

?????
;) :confused: :confused:

[411A]

All the cash spent on RVSM....and now 'tis hard to use, due to ATC.
Ain't it wonderful?
No wonder some in the USA are thinking...is it "really" necessary?
Not to mention 8.33 spacing, a complete waste of time and expense.
Wonder WHEN ATC in the UK will get their collective act together?

[invinoveritas]

411A,

do you actually fly in europe ?

[Bally Heck]

Don't stress youself over 411A invinoveritas. Point scoring is his game, not point making.

[411A]

invinoveritas

Since 1971.

Europe (and UK) reminds me of the Trident, technological advancement at the expense of practicality.

European ATC (except for a few places) seems to fit right in.:rolleyes:;)

[Final 3 Greens]

411A

How many hours have you logged in Tridents?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I agree with 411A that we're are centuries behind the US in many respects... but I wouldn't live there for all the tea in China - just far, far too many fatsoes!!!

[Findo]

411a - RVSM is a supreb aid to ATC in Europe. For one example it allows us to pack Oceanic traffic into optimum levels and routes both ways across the Atlantic giving customer better and more efficient service. Without RVSM in domestic airspace we could not possible handle the density of traffic generated by the Oceanic peak flows.

8.33 is absolutely necessary to allow us to continue to expand our operations to cope with increasing demand. There is a serious shortage of frequencies in Europe where the traffic patterns of countries - not just cities overlap.

We may have some difficulties but then again so did you after the politicians sacked large numbers of ATCOs in 1981. The difference is that we now live in a world where safety regulation is very public and open. The solutions Reagan's government used to "solve" those shortages would not be allowed today.

[Max Angle]

411a says:Wonder WHEN ATC in the UK will get their collective act together?
I have to say that many of us in the UK who use the system every day are asking the same question, sooner rather than later would be my hope.

[jocko0102]

What is wrong with ATC in the UK then?
Be honest give your gripes and maybe we can answer them.

[Cough]

.....Lack of staff leading to delays.

Absolutely nothing you boys on the 'shop floor' can do about it.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Thanks Cough.......at least you have hit the nail on the head :)

Any of you others realise just how damned frustrated (to put it mildly) we controllers are at the state that Management has allowed NATS to get in to ???

It's not only the new centre at Swanwick that is grossly understaffed - the disease runs all the way through the operational side of the "company"......and the very sad thing is, that it will not be getting better in the foreseeable future !!!

[Numpo-Nigit]

I've been told there are some alarming projections for operational controller numbers within NATS that suggest the number of departures (normal retirements, early retirements, loss of medical, etc) will exceed the number of replacements until about 2007. At that point things will start to improve until, in about 2011, we will be back up to the desperate state we are in today!!!

[5milesbaby]

we haven't got 8.33 freq spacings at Swanwick yet, trails on S1/S2 soon to start, and then after only S3/S4 can also have them, due to ALL other airspace incorporating stuff below FL245. Didn't think Scottish had it either.

[Young Paul]

So what's the problem with level capping, then? My company asks ATC for it to avoid slot delays. They also usually ask me if I am happy to accept a lower level - and if it avoids a delay, the answer is yes. The fuel penalty to go from about FL360 to FL260 on a UK domestic route is probably less than 200 kg, anyway.

[Seriph]

A bit rich, criticisms of UK ATC from the land of the neurotics, the former superb, the latter variable at best.

[eyeinthesky]

5MB: Don't forget the new S11 will be FL315+, so I suppose that will be a candidate for 8.33 also.

Reference the numbers at Swanwick:

A requirement (depending on who's presenting the figures!) of between 380 and 410 controllers. Presently 40-odd short (c/10%). Next year maybe another 15 less (13%+).

The only long-term solution: Train like mad to get as many people valid as quickly as possible.

The local management approach: Take instructors out of the simulator to control planes and reduce daily delays.

The result: Ever deeper into the mire.

Good, innit?:rolleyes:

[Bigears]

Young Paul, I would imagine that 200kg times x number of flights per year = a large amount of dosh.

[Cough]

Bigears - The cost of parking the aircraft on a much needed stand will far outweigh the cost of 200kg. (LHR/LGW anyhow)

[Young Paul]

Also, though it may greatly irritate the accountants to say this, and it is always wise to operate in as fuel-efficient a manner as you know how, the variability in fuel-burn per sector is probably of the order of 100-300kg. In other words, the extra fuel burnt may not be noticed in the "noise" of the quantity of fuel burn measured.

Some aircraft fuel gauges only claim to be accurate to within 3% of full load - on a B737 that was about 120 kg, I think.

And also, it will probably only make a difference of a minute or two on a domestic sector. Winds permitting, it might even make you faster.

[boredcounter]

Bigears does make a very valid point.

On ONE side, who gives ATC the right to level cap. It is not only on UK and other domestics. 2Hr sectors from Iberia. Brussels issue a list of UK carriers, by FLT No who will file low. Who gives ATC the right to make commercial calls with our Airlines. It does mount up.

(I openly admit, that, prior to a we think about it, that was my viewpoint).

The OTHER side. BA Ground Handling Manual. B737, Hard and soft costs per delay, GBP200.00 per min. Factor that by .5 to take away incentive to Ground Staff. Factor it to your own fleet size.
Ask what the Cateres get fined per min for each delay.

This is a real 'never win' debate. ATC will do more than you know behind the scenes, I know, I take the calls.

Shoot. Routings and costings is a wee bag of mine. I will argue the toss with the ATCer that says I cannot do that. It is not very often.

PS, never a word from ATC when I level cap under incomming T/Atlantics thru MAN and mix jets with T/Props, and never an ASR.

Keep it up you upturned dusbin watchers.

Bored

[Nogbad the Bad]

boredcounter, you wrote "On ONE side, who gives ATC the right to level cap"

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, that does seem to be a little cockeyed ;)

"Level Capping" as such comes about, at the moment anyway, by the new enroute centre (Swanwick) not having enough staff (which was known by NATS Managementr BEFORE the centre opened - at least FIVE YEARS before I might add !!!) to man the centre properly.

Therefore airlines opt to fly at an initially lower level to get an "on time" departure - or if not "on time" at least to avoid excessive delays.

Ergo, "level capping".

And please note, we "dustbinmen" ( :) :) :) ) will always do our UTMOST to initiate a climb as soon as possible.

[Cough]

And please note, we "dustbinmen" will always do our UTMOST to initiate a climb as soon as possible.

Thanks...Seen it happen many times. We do appreciate!

[411A]

<...refuse higher if offered...>.
Well, certainly nothing wrong with that but then the extra cash spent for RVSM is then a waste of time.

All this "superior" equipment and procedures and it still cannot be made to operate properly.:rolleyes:

[Numpo-Nigit]

Boxcar

I can understand the company's thinking process in asking you to refuse offers of a higher level. They may have been taken to task in the past by ATC units further down the route who have been overloaded by additional aircraft apparently at non-approved levels.

However, I think a better way of dealing with the situation is, if offered a higher level, to reply that you have been level-capped and adding which sector or airspace you are planned to stay beneath (if indeed you know). This allows ATC to check if the relevant sectors can actually accept an additional aircraft. Remember, flow control is a relatively blunt instrument, and there may be tactical opportunities to improve levels and/or routes whilst you are actually en-route. Then, if the offer of a higher level is confirmed, you may take up the offer with a clear conscience and no risk of unwanted repercussions!!!

NN

[Danny]

411A, instead of making mine's better than yours one liner statements why don't you elaborate? Speaking from personal experience of flying widebody jets into the US over several years I can always expect to be told to descend long before the ideal TOD point. More often than not I can expect to fly the last several hundered miles well below any optimum level which is extremely inefficient. Could that be something to do with the state of US ATC?

I hear this criticism from many US pilots as well so please don't try your usual derogatory put down of all matters of aviation that are non US orientated. For once just try and explain your point, not forgetting that Europe is a continent made up of many different countries and not one country under a single federal government. The UK in particular has some of the most densely used airspace due to its geography and the controllers, the people at the pointy end do one of the best jobs of any ATC I have had to experience. Considering that the current problems being discussed are due to poor management and planning, NOT anything to do with the actual controllers, you may want to try using a bit more grammar when making your ascerbic comments. Readers who may not be familiar with your 'style' would then at least be better able to decide whether you were having a go at the controllers or the management.

[411A]

Nothing at ALL wrong with the controllers Danny, but as you noted, the ATC system in Europe is made up of many countries, with their own agendas and priorities. For the system to work as a WHOLE, the system NEEDS to be modified.
Eurocontrol?
Now of course getting the UK, France, Germany etc to all work together is a bit of a stretch, but IF airlines are MADE to invest in RVSM/8.33 (read expensive) equipment, and then the ATC units are understaffed/underfunded, seems to me to be a COMPLETE waste of time.

As for descending early in the USA, yes would agree is sometimes fuel inefficient, but OTOH, have had the same problem in Europe many times. Not unique to the USA certainly.
Japan for example has very dense traffic, and have been asked/instructed many times for an early descent.
Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.

[chiglet]

411a
Your two wheeled velocipeid is being delivered.:D
AFAIK, RVSM is in use in Europe above FL290
At least over here, we don't fly VFR through [thru] CTRs etc at FLxxx
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[411A]

Yes, chiglet I know....

Airline managements in Europe just seem to roll over and play dead, because they are forced into a system that CANNOT accomodate them. Spend, spend, spend...and STILL the system breaks down due to POOR planning by the bureaucrats who could not find their a@@ with both hands, even if the lights were on.

IS there NO solution?

[Seriph]

I'd stop digging if I were you 411A. It is better to appear a fool than continuously open one's mouth and confirm it.

[eyeinthesky]

411A:

Apart from the relatively few DOMESTIC flights which are level-capped and therefore don't make it into RVSM airspace, have you stopped to think how many more DOMESTIC and INTERNATIONAL flights we are able to fit in at high level because we are using RVSM? I suggest that you, in one of your trips here from that side of the Pond, might feel the benefit when trying to return Stateside and RVSM means your delay is 20 mins instead of 1 hour. That is because of increased capacity brought about by RVSM.

As others have said: Your neck is getting a little extended. Try retracting it!;)

[411A]

eyeinthesky,

Yes, additional levels available due to RVSM, yes still problems with the shiney new equipment on the ground...and all this is wasted because even IF the new shiny ground equipment worked as designed, there are still not enough controllers available, trained and on duty to make all that much difference with delays.

Simple question, have delays increased or decreased over the last two years or so?

If the delays have increased as reported here by others, why?

Could it be that those who are actually responsible for ATC planning in the UK/Europe are asleep at the switch?

:rolleyes: ;) ;)

[Ahh-40612]

411A

I wonder if you are one of those that overfly the UK through the London Upper Sector that need several calls to get any response, and then frequently don't know where you're going and what level you can take!!!

Oh and ...................
THE SHINY EQUIPMENT THAT DOESN'T WORK IS AMERICAN!!!

[411A]

Ahh-40612

No, generally destined for Europe/UK from SE Asia/mid East area, sometimes finding that nothing much has changed in the last few years.

You say the shiney new US equipment doesn't work...or you have not received proper training in its use...?:rolleyes: ;)

[boredcounter]

Like I say, '(I openly admit, that, prior to a we think about it, that was my viewpoint)'. On the whole, and it is a 99.9% whole, UK ATC are superb. As a local chap doing my best, I sure try and see your point about manning levels. Shoot I see it every working day.
I can see you guys are making the best out of a bad lot.
'PS, never a word from ATC when I level cap under incomming T/Atlantics thru MAN and mix jets with T/Props, and never an ASR.'
Guess why I phone Lon FMP prior to sticking one thru at low level out via VEULE. MAN accept it, and your lower guy is on the verge of premeture baldness as it is. As for level capping, guess what. I see lists of UK bound flights from Iberia held down. I see UK bound flights restricted most by SRS. All costing UK carriers money. At a GUESS, have a word with your French mates. File under a 20NM restriction on the continent, you get a YOYO restriction for the priveledge. At least you guys in the UK are honest. Never knew the French or Italians had so many Milexs.


Keep up the good work UK, we based carrier do thank you for it.

[Seriph]

The blatant nationalism of our European partners has long been a fact of life in aviation especially the French and Spanish. Amazing how often one is number one for approach until a burst of Spanish ATC shifts you to no. 2 or 3, often for turbo props miles away.