Cathay Pacific leaders taken us to the bottom in a vertical dive!

[busdriverray1]

Rumour mill says!!!

Five Captains report to some level manager requesting that said manager put forward and support the idea of a commuting package to retain some experience. Said Manager informed the dreamers that this would not be a consideration!

These five experienced Captains resigned on the spot.

I am guessing the next generation of Cathay Captains will be those decision makers and HR personnel that currently don’t have a Airline Transport Pilot Licence, however will soon need too roll up their sleeves and get their hands dirty! And fly those beasts that make an Airline money and give an Airline the name Airline.

I am not sure what a company that has a 180 wide body jets parked due to lack of crew!!! Maybe a taxi company.

The Future is here Cathay Taxi!

[cygnet78]

good news. hope more will resign ASAP.

[Meursault]

Which proper airline offers a honest commuter deal that offers quality time at home, enough rest and fair salary? I could not name one.

[jjmclure]

Which proper airline offers a honest commuter deal that offers quality time at home, enough rest and fair salary? I could not name one.
Kalitta Air
$420,000 USD per year as a year 2 Captain.
2 weeks on and 2 weeks off. Better than any CX position.
Btw , it’s ‘an’ not ‘a’ commuter deal…..
Confused little man !

[Meursault]

Complete BS. Salary at Kalita is much lower if you work only 2 weeks.

And it is a not an. Maybe next time post when sober?

[Australia2]

I know of one good name amongst the rumoured 5 - be interesting to see if that’s the case or bull**** Chinese whispers. I hope there’s some truth here, they’ll have to wake up one day or you’d have to say CX will be consigned to the “another average Asian category” permanently.

[jjmclure]

Complete BS. Salary at Kalita is much lower if you work only 2 weeks.

And it is a not an. Maybe next time post when sober?
Oh yes indeed little man, all the pilots at K4 only work 2 weeks per month. You need to get out more!
No wonder everyone says you are boring to fly with.

BTW Kalitta is spelt with two T’s

[RubberDogPoop]

Which proper airline offers a honest commuter deal that offers quality time at home, enough rest and fair salary? I could not name one.

Ok, it’s “an” honest commuter deal. You’re both wrong…

[Gnadenburg]

Complete BS. Salary at Kalita is much lower if you work only 2 weeks.

And it is a not an. Maybe next time post when sober?


Maybe Jim’s a union guy and knows the new contract coming up at Kalitta? It would have to be 20% + along with other perks. The 450K would probably require this payrise and a good Ol’ American work ethic.

I know a lot of folks had to stay at CX for financial reasons. Many of the lifestyle jobs out there also come with a far less toxic culture. It’s difficult to quantify the value of this intangible quality of professional life, yet I’d go as far to say that’s it’s significant. Again, the caveat being, you have enough money.

[HeadUpTheTailpipe]

Also, Korean, regarding commuting and pretty much 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. Money ain't great, but who cares.

Any reason Korean isn't a good option?

[Meursault]

Also, Korean, regarding commuting and pretty much 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. Money ain't great, but who cares.

Any reason Korean isn't a good option?

I personally would not choose it. It's 11 days, if you give up your leave, J class not guaranteed and the pay is mediocre.. Plus it's not a permanent contract, all expats got laid off immediately during Covid. I also doubt it is a good alternative to escape the culture at Cx.

The above proposed pay for Kalittta is not true, maybe half of that if you work 14 days. Before tax. He is right about the grammar though.

Disclaimer: I would love to have a commuting contract, I just haven't seen an honest one, in name only.

[Gnadenburg]

I think you are both wrong and I’d suggest meeting half way for K4 pay. Depends on fleet too. B777 is a holiday but low OT.

[Meursault]

Maybe. But I don't think you do OT when you work 14 days either..

[Zi Peng]

Which proper airline offers a honest commuter deal that offers quality time at home, enough rest and fair salary? I could not name one.

Maybe not all of the above but an airline desperate for trainers (in numbers and quality) and experience should definitely look into it.

[Meursault]

I guarantee you, should they ever offer it, it will be the mother of a low ball. Yes, they gonna call it "commuting" contract, but it will be same hours compressed and your G days consecutive, no confirmed seat and all for less money.

[Climbpowder]

Kalitta Air
$420,000 USD per year as a year 2 Captain.
2 weeks on and 2 weeks off. Better than any CX position.
Btw , it’s ‘an’ not ‘a’ commuter deal…..
Confused little man !

Please remind me of US tax, health insurance, crime rate, location, before i send my application. Thanks! Is never good enough here, is always better "there".

[Verbal Kint]

Depends where you live.

Most pilots are in the 24 - 35% federal tax bracket. Many choose to live in states with no state income tax - especially with ‘gateway’ contracts like Atlas etc.

Health Insurance is typically a group policy. Cost for my family & I is approximately the same as would have been in HK under COS18.

Crime? No better/worse than any other western city.

[SIDS N STARS]

In HK you might get away with paying 10-15% tax, but if you have kids in school (international), want a decent apartment, like to eat out a couple of times a week, Ocean Park, Disneyland, Concerts, other outdoor activities, there goes a large chunk of your salary, more so in HK because these things are considerably more expensive and no better quality than any other western countries. Just like the gulf countries.

I don't buy into the "my tax is lower than yours" argument because you just end up spending it elsewhere.

[Meursault]

Disneyland, Concerts, other outdoor activities, there goes a large chunk of your salary, more so in HK because these things are considerably more expensive and no better quality than any other western countries.


https://insidethemagic.net/2016/06/which-disney-park-around-the-world-is-the-most-expensive-to-visit/

The US Disney parks are way more expensive. Not that I care personally, you would have to pay me to go, but for the sake of the argument.

Ever rented a car in the US? It starts with 9.99 and at the end it's 50. Same goes for the "low tax". It does not paint the real picture. Check out the tuition fees at US universities, cost of a meal at a restaurant ( 20% "tip" is now considered the lowest acceptable) or groceries and cost of real estate in the cities. Also add the annual real estate tax. My place in HK would cost me 15 000 USD tax every year, until I die. Of course you always could live on a farm in Kansas and marry your cousin, but the truth is that the US is not cheap wherever it is nice. And the 420k pay for 14 days at Kalitta is a phantasy.

Having said that, it is true that you can have a good lifestyle with a major captain salary, just very difficult to achieve as foreigner, I certainly don't want to bash the US in general, it is a great country, but the discussion is a bit pointless since 99% of those working for Cathay do not have a green card. Not sure why this US argument always pops up here, it's a red herring.

[SIDS N STARS]

Not everyone in the US has to go to University, but everyone has to go to high school in HK... Anyway, I wasn't referring to HK v USA specifically, could use any western country. Agreed, I couldn't care less. Theres good and bad for both. Point I was trying to make, just because you pay less tax here, more tax there, you end up spending it anyway.

[Sleepy Joe]

I totally agree. Regardless of tax rate I never spent so much money, sometimes just trying to exist with a family in HK, fine when I was single on Cos 08 but that was never going to be for the duration. All I heard when I left was how much tax you will pay, but realised it was a complete malformed statement !!!

[raven11]

One of the biggest positive factors that living in a western country offers is the existence of labor laws as well as laws governing the behavior of employers towards their employees. The history of malicious behavior exhibited by Cathay management towards its employees would never have been tolerated. In a western country employers are expected to treat their employees with dignity and respect. Something Cathay management has little regard for.

[SOPS]

One of the biggest positive factors that living in a western country offers is the existence of labor laws as well as laws governing the behavior of employers towards their employees. The history of malicious behavior exhibited by Cathay management towards its employees would never have been tolerated. In a western country employers are expected to treat their employees with dignity and respect. Something Cathay management has little regard for.

The Sad fact is..in the A Scale Days, I think Cathay did treat employees with dignity and respect. I went to interviews during the A Scale days. You were told ( in a round about way), we only employ the best of the best, and we offer the best conditions for our staff, especially our pilots. I was not good enough for very high standards, unfortunately.

I don’t understand what’s happened since, but it’s not good.

[Meursault]

One of the biggest positive factors that living in a western country offers is the existence of labor laws as well as laws governing the behavior of employers towards their employees. The history of malicious behavior exhibited by Cathay management towards its employees would never have been tolerated. In a western country employers are expected to treat their employees with dignity and respect. Something Cathay management has little regard for.

You obviously never worked for a LCC in Europe 😂

[Verbal Kint]

https://insidethemagic.net/2016/06/which-disney-park-around-the-world-is-the-most-expensive-to-visit/

The US Disney parks are way more expensive. Not that I care personally, you would have to pay me to go, but for the sake of the argument.

Ever rented a car in the US? It starts with 9.99 and at the end it's 50. Same goes for the "low tax". It does not paint the real picture. Check out the tuition fees at US universities, cost of a meal at a restaurant ( 20% "tip" is now considered the lowest acceptable) or groceries and cost of real estate in the cities. Also add the annual real estate tax. My place in HK would cost me 15 000 USD tax every year, until I die. Of course you always could live on a farm in Kansas and marry your cousin, but the truth is that the US is not cheap wherever it is nice. And the 420k pay for 14 days at Kalitta is a phantasy.

Having said that, it is true that you can have a good lifestyle with a major captain salary, just very difficult to achieve as foreigner, I certainly don't want to bash the US in general, it is a great country, but the discussion is a bit pointless since 99% of those working for Cathay do not have a green card. Not sure why this US argument always pops up here, it's a red herring.

Out of curiosity, how big is your place in HK?

[Gnadenburg]

Having said that, it is true that you can have a good lifestyle with a major captain salary, just very difficult to achieve as foreigner, I certainly don't want to bash the US in general, it is a great country, but the discussion is a bit pointless since 99% of those working for Cathay do not have a green card. Not sure why this US argument always pops up here, it's a red herring.

It’s probably because the States is loaded with ex-CX/KA guys who have found one way or another to be employed there. Some have green cards and some have E3 visas.

I still think the most considered argument is did you make enough money during the Golden Years of Hong Kong to provide choices for your family. I’m sure there are many wealthy CX pilots still in HK by choice. I get that. But many left. It would be horrible to be there needing the money. The rosters look awful for some.

If you made your money it slews the debate. A job at a U.S. cargo carrier offering two weeks off a month and cruisy heavy crew operations may suit you better than being a regional CX pilot trying to work out how to land a 321 🙂

[Meursault]

I would be interested in truthful numbers and rosters of those E3 guys at Atlas etc. I personally do not see the allure, and one STC already came back, but I am a senior CN, maybe ok for FO..


"Out of curiosity, how big is your place in HK?" 1300FT, worth about 1.5 M, TAX 1% = 15000 USD /Year. Every time I check real estate prices at places I like in US it is in that ball park price range, if not more. Totally accept that preferences, taste are personal and different though. I would not trade my flat with a "villa" twice as big in some desert compound, but that's me.

[CCA]

Got a mate ex Hong Kong with National got his command after the 1000hrs FAA (18 months). Like most of the US carriers you can work as hard or as little as you desire because their rosters allow for lifestyle or cash.

I’d say the 420k for a year is easily doable but it might mean working absolutely flat out one month and then backing off the next to average 4 wks off over 2 month's. I know for a fact he raked in 70k for a month but it was flat out and the tax did some damage, but he’s now exploring ways to put some balance to his life and reduce his tax. The point is he has control of his life and earnings and everyone wants something different which usually means less complaining.

[Verbal Kint]

I would be interested in truthful numbers and rosters of those E3 guys at Atlas etc. I personally do not see the allure, and one STC already came back, but I am a senior CN, maybe ok for FO..


"Out of curiosity, how big is your place in HK?" 1300FT, worth about 1.5 M, TAX 1% = 15000 USD /Year. Every time I check real estate prices at places I like in US it is in that ball park price range, if not more. Totally accept that preferences, taste are personal and different though. I would not trade my flat with a "villa" twice as big in some desert compound, but that's me.

$15000 USD annual property tax would be extraordinarily expensive for 1300 sq ft anywhere in the US. Definitely not the norm.

[Meursault]

Choosing how much you want to work is really valuable, agreed.

Strangely though, I get different numbers regarding pay, about 250 USD/hr for Cpt.. Don't know the actual figures, just saying.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/national_airlines

[main_dog]

However in all fairness unless you’re lucky enough to already own a place in HK, it has the highest real estate costs in the world (rental or buying). The lower tax here is more than offset by the high rents.

The one big advantage of US (and even most EU) jobs is a certain amount of control over your lifestyle/career earnings. We never had most of that here, but at least we had financial certainty. Now with our new “contract” that certainty is gone, and in addition to having little/no control over leave/days off/fleet/workload, you have no idea how much you can expect to make and save.

Makes it a potentially interesting short term job but a hard sell as a career airline, especially with family.

[Oddball77]

However in all fairness unless you’re lucky enough to already own a place in HK, it has the highest real estate costs in the world (rental or buying). The lower tax here is more than offset by the high rents.

The one big advantage of US (and even most EU) jobs is a certain amount of control over your lifestyle/career earnings. We never had most of that here, but at least we had financial certainty. Now with our new “contract” that certainty is gone, and in addition to having little/no control over leave/days off/fleet/workload, you have no idea how much you can expect to make and save.

Makes it a potentially interesting short term job but a hard sell as a career airline, especially with family.

“With all our pilots in one base in Hong Kong, operating under a single remuneration structure… we’re able to achieve very different ways of working and different levels of the way in which pilots can contribute to the daily task of flying the schedule that we offer to customers,” Kempis said.

[CCA]

Honestly the latest FOPs news letter sums it up.

“We do it this way at cx, we chose this way with Jepp” (with pilot input 😂 yea nah)

Well how about you stop doing that way and do it the way other airlines do it, then the pilots might actually stay!!!

Build an agricultural bidline system because cx clearly have no clue how to build a advanced request system that actual functions when or after it’s published the spread of cx/ka pilots have shared the fact that cx are amateurs, and have no clue how to roster.

Cx seem to act like a single successful request validates their rostering ability it’s pathetic. .

[Gnadenburg]

I would be interested in truthful numbers and rosters of those E3 guys at Atlas etc. I personally do not see the allure, and one STC already came back, but I am a senior CN, maybe ok for FO..


Agreed, an important process often overlooked by pilots, is professional due diligence on their new job!

If you are a Senior Captain at CX does that mean much these days in terms of lifestyle perks and benefits? At some stage, for many as they become exponentially wealthier as the years roll on, time off will or should become very important.

The US jobs probably won’t suit all. Whereas the time off is excellent, starting again at the bottom isn’t for everyone. However, there are going to be more and more lifestyle jobs emerging. Cathay’s rostering will add to their attrition rate.

Dragonair had a part time scheme. Month on month off. That’s my yardstick for comparing the US jobs. Pay leans in favour of a Captain at a U.S. freight carrier and the time off in favour of the old KA scheme. Yet it’s so pleasing for many, that where we thought we’d be lifestyle wise, toward career’s end, is again an option!

National offers an interesting option. Probably more for disgruntled CX FO’s. As mentioned above promotion rapid thought that could change. The perk is the shelf company arrangement and many still live in Hong Kong on a tax free salary.

So there are many options and it’s not black and white out there. You have to be genuinely fed up with CX to make the move and due diligence and self awareness of yours and your family’s circumstances critical.

[CessNah]

Hi all,
Sorry to thread hijack here, I didn't feel like starting my own thread for my very quick question but on the topic of leaving, does anybody know if we are able to use the staff shipment service like we did when we joined to leave Hong Kong? I appreciate it will probably come at a cost, but I want to double check as the rellocation companies out here are quoting me extortionate fees!

[Pickuptruck]

Hi all,
Sorry to thread hijack here, I didn't feel like starting my own thread for my very quick question but on the topic of leaving, does anybody know if we are able to use the staff shipment service like we did when we joined to leave Hong Kong? I appreciate it will probably come at a cost, but I want to double check as the rellocation companies out here are quoting me extortionate fees!

We lost it at the death of COS99/08, only option back then was 50% of your total allowance, which plenty did in the final days of Cathay Version 1. We now work for Cathay Version 2, so along with the 41% paycut that was mentioned as a hurrah in a recent crew update, we don't get a repatriation allowance. There is no longer an expat contract at CX, if there was a widebody Captain wouldn't be on half what Korean pay.
And don't look at where you'd be if you'd turned them down and had done 20+ years at your own legacy carrier instead.........

[CessNah]

We lost it at the death of COS99/08, only option back then was 50% of your total allowance, which plenty did in the final days of Cathay Version 1. We now work for Cathay Version 2, so along with the 41% paycut that was mentioned as a hurrah in a recent crew update, we don't get a repatriation allowance. There is no longer an expat contract at CX, if there was a widebody Captain wouldn't be on half what Korean pay.
And don't look at where you'd be if you'd turned them down and had done 20+ years at your own legacy carrier instead.........
I thought that might be the case, but still wanted to check nonetheless, appreciate the help! 1 year at CX was more than enough for me, was probably the largest portion of humble pie I’d consumed in my life but I’ve accepted my mistake of ever going to CX in the first place and I’m on my way home to go work for the legacies. I wish everyone who’s still in HK the best and to thank you all for taking me under your wing during my short stint out there.

[Dilbert68]

Well at least it was a stepping stone to a better job, congratulations and all the best at home.

[Bekol delay]

I moved back to the UK at the beginning of the year and used Swiftrelo, competitive quote, and good comms. However, we did have a huge clearout and were quite brutal in deciding on what was being shipped and what was being disposed of.

[Sleepy Joe]

I moved Summer of 22 and I used Swiftrelo as well and found them competitively priced and good communications throughout .

[Australia2]

CessNah,

Best of luck back in your motherland.

personally I admire someone with the courage of conviction (the $$$/personal & family circumstances obviously allow) to make a change rather than still being here in 2 years bemoaning the job.

best wishes & safe travels.

[Meursault]

What changed within the last year?

[cxflog]

He took the rose coloured glasses off and realised what a sh!thole CX is. I’m honestly proud, it takes a lot to pick up and move your whole life across the world.

[CessNah]

Thanks for your kind words everyone, I appreciate it and I wish you all the best! Also huge kudos to Bekol and Sleepy Joe, I've contacted Swiftrelo and they responded immediately with a much better price than Pickfords and Santa Fe, they're coming in tomorrow to dispatch all my belongings back to the UK so I too can also depart HK much sooner than planned.


I like to leave things in positive light despite all of the flaws with CX, especially for those who are reading thinking about joining, and remember folks this is all just one man's opinion. Do I think CX is a long term career airline? Absolutely not. BUT, I still stand by the point it is a fantastic stepping stone for those who are still early on in their careers, perhaps a bit of an adventure seeker and want to experience something different before settling down in their home countries for a long term career position. The training you'll receive is top tier (though will that last forever with the guys and gals approaching retirement or resigning?), despite the toxic company culture once that flightdeck door is shut, you can have some banter and meet some of the nicest people in the industry and you do get to see some pretty cool places. Also to any fellow Brits reading and thinking of making the jump, when I was at an LCC over a year ago most of my colleagues went over to BA and were assigned to the A320 at LHR or their low cost division in Gatwick for a minimum of 5 years which I'm aware put many people off (myself included), but having bagged a B777 rating at CX and long haul recruitment back in limited numbers, I was lucky enough to be offered the B777 out of LHR purely by virtue of having a B777 rating. So thank you ever so much CX for providing my with that type rating and the training/experience required, it's definitely one of the best flight schools I've attended over the years :cool:

[Gnadenburg]

Glad you got what you needed from
CX. Good luck! Did you have a bond?

[Babyjet_dododo]

Thanks for your kind words everyone, I appreciate it and I wish you all the best! Also huge kudos to Bekol and Sleepy Joe, I've contacted Swiftrelo and they responded immediately with a much better price than Pickfords and Santa Fe, they're coming in tomorrow to dispatch all my belongings back to the UK so I too can also depart HK much sooner than planned.


I like to leave things in positive light despite all of the flaws with CX, especially for those who are reading thinking about joining, and remember folks this is all just one man's opinion. Do I think CX is a long term career airline? Absolutely not. BUT, I still stand by the point it is a fantastic stepping stone for those who are still early on in their careers, perhaps a bit of an adventure seeker and want to experience something different before settling down in their home countries for a long term career position. The training you'll receive is top tier (though will that last forever with the guys and gals approaching retirement or resigning?), despite the toxic company culture once that flightdeck door is shut, you can have some banter and meet some of the nicest people in the industry and you do get to see some pretty cool places. Also to any fellow Brits reading and thinking of making the jump, when I was at an LCC over a year ago most of my colleagues went over to BA and were assigned to the A320 at LHR or their low cost division in Gatwick for a minimum of 5 years which I'm aware put many people off (myself included), but having bagged a B777 rating at CX and long haul recruitment back in limited numbers, I was lucky enough to be offered the B777 out of LHR purely by virtue of having a B777 rating. So thank you ever so much CX for providing my with that type rating and the training/experience required, it's definitely one of the best flight schools I've attended over the years :cool:

good luck back in LHR, Speaking to an ex colleague, a lot of carriers specifically target CX crew due to their high standard in training and discipline in the flight deck

[AQIS Boigu]

good luck back in LHR, Speaking to an ex colleague, a lot of carriers specifically target CX crew due to their high standard in training and discipline in the flight deck

Probably not the newly checked out ones - what do you know after 14 sectors?!

[cygnet78]

Good to see many western expats leaving CX. Its about time for a change. Bye Bye. No body will miss you westerner. hahahahaha

[Babyjet_dododo]

Probably not the newly checked out ones - what do you know after 14 sectors?!

probably not much! But after two years a person would be skilled enough to succeed at other carriers

[Babyjet_dododo]

Good to see many western expats leaving CX. Its about time for a change. Bye Bye. No body will miss you westerner. hahahahaha

It’s great isn’t it! Have you ever met a local that can think outside the framework? Especially when there is no answer in the manuals to the problem they face? I have and it’s really not pretty!

[Meursault]

It’s great isn’t it! Have you ever met a local that can think outside the framework? Especially when there is no answer in the manuals to the problem they face? I have and it’s really not pretty!

For any local who had to read the above racist drivel, he is not talking for the majority. And shame on you babyjet, you are a disgrace.

[Babyjet_dododo]

For any local who had to read the above racist drivel, he is not talking for the majority. And shame on you babyjet, you are a disgrace.

So speaking honestly is racist? Is highlighting an issue that is commonly widespread all throughout HK, racist?

I’ve experienced this in the last 15 years in Hong Kong that it’s become normal to me, but absolutely frustrating to anyone that is new to the country. And this extends from public servants to Medical professionals and everything in between. Why do people who can, leave Hong Kong for major medical treatment? So don’t call me racist when I’ve been through it.

[Hardrod]

So speaking honestly is racist? Is highlighting an issue that is commonly widespread all throughout HK, racist?

I’ve experienced this in the last 15 years in Hong Kong that it’s become normal to me, but absolutely frustrating to anyone that is new to the country. And this extends from public servants to Medical professionals and everything in between. Why do people who can, leave Hong Kong for major medical treatment? So don’t call me racist when I’ve been through it.


This goes back to the root cause - poor local schooling - copy machine teaching method.
The western education teaches you to think, to acquire critical thinking skills, so you can be independent as you grow, unfortunately, that is not the case with local schools.
That's why you have people who make ridiculous policies, who have no flexibility, no adaptability, at the top, CL's administration, JL's administration etc...

Fyi, I am a local, born and bred here, so I completely understand your frustration.

[Goldeye]

It's easy to conflate culture with race, but it's not the same. If you say something negative about a place it's not racist, baby baby. Would a Brit saying something about France be racist?? Keep race out of it, it's not nothing to do with skin colour. It's just a different place, for better or worse. Personally I love HK, but not for their lateral thinking. Still haven't found the perfect country, you?

[Progress Wanchai]

It’s great isn’t it! Have you ever met a local that can think outside the framework? Especially when there is no answer in the manuals to the problem they face? I have and it’s really not pretty!

And you’re an example of what thinking outside the framework looks like?

You were thrown a hook with the tiniest hint of bait on it and you took it.
Classy stuff. Real professional. Fills me full of confidence with whatever you identify yourself as.