UK Modular SEIR -> MEIR

[rs4sprint]

I'm currently midway through my PPL and have been planning the next stages of my training. I've read lots of helpful threads about the most cost effective way of navigating this (mainly the IR phase) but am struggling to put this into practice. My plan was to obtain an IR(R) straight after PPL to help build IFR hours during the hour building phase, then progress to an SEIR and then eventually convert this to an MEIR via a short conversion course to minimise ME flying time however I'm being told by a few schools that at least 15 hours multi flying is required, even on a CBIR to obtain the licence making the SEIR more or less redundant. Has anyone recently navigated this route and if so have any suggestions? Going down the SEIR -> MEIR Conversion route looks like it could in theory save quite a lot of money but I can't find any schools that offer this conversion course?

TIA

[gordonquinn]

Hello

Are you under the UK CAA? I did a single engine CBIR course, then MEP then MEIR conversion. My MEIR conversion consisted of about 3 hours sim plus 4 hours in the aircraft (2 x 2 hour flights).
It can save you some money and it did me but some things to note:

Single engine to multi engine is different but not that difficult - if you go over the minimums you might lose any savings you had
You will have to sit 2 CAA tests which means 2 CAA test fees (£926 currently) and of course, this means the pressure of 2 test days however that can be seen as a positive
You also need to wait on paperwork before you can start your conversion, this cost me about 4-5 weeks of waiting
Ending up with less multi hours means you have less multi experience, that may not be a good thing for some job applications who want as much multi time as possible

Pros, cons and a good spreadsheet will give you the best plan for you however I wouldn't just go for the cheapest route as it might not be the best for you.

PM me if you like, happy to help.

[rudestuff]

Good advice. 4 Hrs vs 15 Hrs seems like a no-brainer to me. It's your performance in Sim assessments that gets you hired. Don't be scared of an extra IR test, you're entering an industry where you will essentially be doing an IR test at least every 6 months until you retire. They are very simple once you understand them - he basically has a checklist of maneuvers he needs to see and you show him one at a time. A multi engine plane flies just like a single engine one, a bit faster perhaps but the instruments are the same. The single engine work is different obviously but there's nothing inherently hard about banging some rudder in, trimming, identifying and securing the engine.

Schools are there to make money, not help you save money. Ultimately you have to put your foot down, tell them what you want and give then the option to help you or lose your business.

[rs4sprint]

Thank you both for your replies, much appreciated. Do you have any suggestions for UK based schools who offer the conversion course? After much searching I’m struggling to find anywhere that offers this and just being told I need the minimum of 15 hours for a CBIR instead, but I guess this is just sales tactics.

[gordonquinn]

I did my training with Euro Flight Training (Lee on Solent) - I would suggest you have a chat with Elle there, she is very knowledgeable and helpful

[rudestuff]

They probably think they can talk you into going straight for the MEIR instead. Tell the school you already have an SEIR and just want to get an MEIR.

[HypoxicWaiter]

I'm currently using EFT who have Diamond aircraft/simulators.

I did my SE CBIR with them. 25 hours sim & 15 hours in the DA40 with a first time pass ( this is credit to the usefulness of the sim and the great instructors at Euro Flight ).

My initial plan was the same as you, an IR(R) first followed by hour building then CBIR route with hours credited. However due to full time work I elected to start the full 40 hour SE CBIR with zero IFR experience, so please ignore schools that say you can't undertake a CBIR course without prior IFR experience. I work full time so valued the 25 hours in the sim which isn't affected by weather, and allows you to carry out 4/5 approaches per one hour session versus an hour in the air where Bournemouth may keep you in the hold for 30 minutes whilst Bryanair jump the queue, leaving time for one approach. On the flip side of this, sim time doesn't count as flying time ( thinking 200 hour flying requirement for cpl skills test ) so you'll have to budget for 25 hours extra flying elsewhere...cheap tomahawk for me at my local field at the cost of £2500. (25 hours IR flying in the DA40 would have cost me about £7500)

And then to answer your question, the SE to ME IR upgrade at EFT and as per the CAA requirements is minimum 3 hours sim (DA42) and 2 hours in the aircraft (DA42). I'll be doing this after my MEP training ( 6 hours ) and CPL training ( 5 hours in the DA42 after 10 hours in the C172 ) so I'll be more familiar with the aircraft.

Additionally I used a DA40 aircraft on Flight Sim 2020 to practice approaches, checklist flow and use of the G1000 which was invaluable. There is now also a new DA42 available on Flight Sim by a developer called COWS who consist of flight instructors and students that is fantastic for at home training and brush up.

By doing the 40 hour SE CBIR then an upgrade to ME CBIR I save myself around £6k total versus doing the full 45 hour ME CBIR. Although you may value the consistency of a full course on the multi aircraft.
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[rudestuff]

I just had a look at EFT prices, £11k (+£2.5k) for 40 hours and an SEIR. That's a very expensive simulator! I know that training on a DA40 makes sense if you're moving onto the DA42 but there are also cheaper airplanes out there. 30 hours in a 172 or PA28 then 10 hours on DA40 would be about £10k, saving enough to pay for your MEIR as well.

[Trey Table]

Is it possible to obtain a UK-only SEIR, then upgrade later to both a UK and EASA MEIR at a different school?

Also would this fall foul of BA’s “no more than three ATO” rule?

The reason I ask is there is a great UK ATO near me and they offer a great value SEIR. They’re not EASA approved so I’d need to do the upgrade at a different ATO.

I’d be able to legitimately say I obtained my MEIR and CPL with the same ATO, but I’d have done the bulk of SEIR training elsewhere.

[pcnut]

I just had a look at EFT prices, £11k (+£2.5k) for 40 hours and an SEIR. That's a very expensive simulator! I know that training on a DA40 makes sense if you're moving onto the DA42 but there are also cheaper airplanes out there. 30 hours in a 172 or PA28 then 10 hours on DA40 would be about £10k, saving enough to pay for your MEIR as well.
25 hours in the sim plus 15 in the aircraft comes out at £10925, so using your calculations you would save £925. (No approach charges or landing fees in the sim so that knocks a bit off too.) Which wouldn't pay for the MEIR upgrade, or anywhere near it. Plus the quality of the training is vastly superior using a sim - one CAA senior examiner told me he always knows when students haven't used a simulator because they just aren't as good. Plus according to the CAA that's the only single engine approved simulator in the country - and the approval is only about £500 per year cheaper than a DA42 simulator which nobody bats an eyelid at paying for. Expensive? Yes, but you get what you pay for. Better than the aircraft for IR training? Also yes.

[rudestuff]

25 hours in the sim plus 15 in the aircraft comes out at £10925, so using your calculations you would save £925. (No approach charges or landing fees in the sim so that knocks a bit off too.) Which wouldn't pay for the MEIR upgrade, or anywhere near it.Not exactly. You'd save £925 PLUS the cost of an extra 25 hours of hour building, which could be £2500-£5000. (The cost of landings would cancel out.) £3425-£5925 Should easily pay for most if not all an MEIR upgrade....

I agree that it's better to train in the SIM. But only if the training is appropriate. You won't be learning anything new after the first 10 hours, and my experience was that most of my 30 hours of sim time was spent flying full practice profiles which would have been the same price in the real aircraft AND loggable towards the CPL. Now my advice is generally to use the SIM as little as possible (unless you can get free practice time). The higher the SIM costs the higher the break even point and it may be cheaper to train in the aircraft even if it takes you 50 or 60 hours, and let's be honest here - IR flying is easy. I've never heard of anyone going over minimums.

[pcnut]

Not exactly. You'd save £925 PLUS the cost of an extra 25 hours of hour building, which could be £2500-£5000. (The cost of landings would cancel out.) £3425-£5925 Should easily pay for most if not all an MEIR upgrade....

I agree that it's better to train in the SIM. But only if the training is appropriate. You won't be learning anything new after the first 10 hours, and my experience was that most of my 30 hours of sim time was spent flying full practice profiles which would have been the same price in the real aircraft AND loggable towards the CPL. Now my advice is generally to use the SIM as little as possible (unless you can get free practice time). The higher the SIM costs the higher the break even point and it may be cheaper to train in the aircraft even if it takes you 50 or 60 hours, and let's be honest here - IR flying is easy. I've never heard of anyone going over minimums.
If you're good at IR flying it might be "easy", but plenty of people struggle and would take more than 10 hours to cover the basics. After 10 hours I hadn't covered the basics - and I did a full IR not the reduced CBIR. So I had to start from the beginning and there's no way I could have covered all the elements of the IR course in 10 hours. Also I think I'd rather use the sim and practice all the different approaches easily, rather than the situation a lot of students are facing now where they have to transit for over an hour (in some cases 2...) just to find an approach that's available. Ultimately you've got to choose what you think is the right way for you - I'd rather use the sim, get to test standard (and hopefully above) and finish in minimum hours (if possible) and hour build, than fly 50 - 60 hours paying for an IRI and flying in a straight line in a cloud achieving less. Plus I'd rather stick to the same avionics and aircraft than keep chopping and changing between steam/glass/whatever. Personally, consistency and familiarity are more important than saving money - flying training is never going to be cheap however you do it.

[rudestuff]

I agree about doing what works for you. I also did a full IR course, starting with 30 hours in the sim. I had quite a different experience of IR flying. After about 4 sessions/6 hours we had covered precision and non-precision approaches on both one and two engines, holds and hold entries and general handling. The instructor said we'd covered everything and was ready to do it all again in the aircraft, but unfortunately "the rules" said we had to do another 24 hours in the sim, so we just flew exam profile after exam profile... It seemed to me at the time that I would have been better off doing that in a real plane and logging the hours.

[CAP A330]

Someone please clarify;

SECBIR Route:
15 hrs IRR.
15 hrs hour building in IMC.
Credit 30 hrs.
10 hrs SECBIR at £300 p/h = £3000

Now to convert to MEIR. You do 3 hrs in the sim, then 2 hrs in the ME plane.

You have essentially bypassed the requirements of needing 15 hrs multi time and you will not have an MEP rating (correct or not?). How can you take a skills test in something which you don’t have a rating? And why does the 15 hr rule exist anyway if you can bypass it?!

ME time 2 x 600 = £1200
sim time 3 x £200 = £600
skills test = £926

Total Cost IRR + conversion = £5000


Costs involved from IRR To MECBIR
IRR cancels out
Hour building cancels out
Credits cancel out (you can claim up to 35 hrs for MECBIR but 5 need to be ME anyway which you won’t have)
15 hrs ME at £600 p/h = £9000


you will have a MEP rating in this case I believe as you are combining the MEP and IR.


so a saving of £4000 at face value (read below). But the bold may be the catch someone explain!

And with the conversion route you will only have three hours sim which is minimal money wasted towards CPL hours. In the the straight IRR->MECBIR you have no sim hours. So total saving is knocked down to roughly £3400 (+2 actual flight hours at whatever the hourly cost).

you could in theory use that £3400 if you can’t do minimum hours in the conversion route. That’s an extra 5 hours ME before break-even.


Although it gets a little more complicated when you factor in hiring for a skills test. The best option would be to do the SECBIR then the ME conversion when your SEIR is due for renewal.

im doing my IRR at the moment which I expect will cost me £3000 (minus skills test and aircraft hire and rating application). And then spend £4000 for the SECBIR (with skills test but minus hire and rating). Then roughly £3000 for the conversion time + test (minus rating and hire). So about £10000 from 0 to a full MEIR (minus ratings and hire.


Factor in with contingency's and hire etc. anyone with a cheaper way?

[pcnut]

You can't start an MEIR course without having at the minimum completed the training for the MEP rating and you won't get an MEIR issued without an MEP rating. So at some point you need an MEP rating!

[rudestuff]

Yeah you need the MEP rating in both scenarios, so it cancels out. Wasn't always the case - I never held an MEP rating and that got a few heads scratching. I think they closed that loophole a few years ago. You need 6 hours for the MEP, 1.5--2 hours for the flight test, min of 2 for the MEIR conversion and 1.5-2 hours for the flight test. So you can get the MEIR with 11-12 MEP hours vs 23 hours the 'normal' way.
The true savings will be considerably more once you account for the extra hour building that you don't have to do.

[CAP A330]

Ok, makes sense.

if I’m to really compare apples to apples then purely based on flight time since the big fish schools do that in their sites


£3000 IRR
£3000 SEIR
£3600 MEP
£2000 conversion

£11600 with no skills tests, hire or rating.

Big fish schools = £18-20000+ not even accounting for ‘wasted’ sim time..

Now, how do I minimise my sim time? Do you think a school will let me walk in with an IRR and 30 hour credits and accept me doing 10 hours in a PA28 for a SECBIR?

[rudestuff]

Do you think a school will let me walk in with an IRR and 30 hour credits and accept me doing 10 hours in a PA28 for a SECBIR?I don't see why not if they're offering CBIR? You're a paying customer. There's always a danger of going over minimum hours with any course (especially with SEIR to MEIR) but if you're good enough then I don't see a problem.

[CAP A330]

Everywhere I go stories of instructors screwing the students with extra hours. There’s real cowboys out there. I’m glad my PPL instructor forced me NOT to fly just for the sake of flying despite how annoying it seemed at the time.


The stakes are higher the shorter the course. As a % you have less room for error per hour, now add in cowboy instructors and more expensive courses..

[WindyTurtle]

Is it possible to obtain a UK-only SEIR, then upgrade later to both a UK and EASA MEIR at a different school?

Also would this fall foul of BA’s “no more than three ATO” rule?

The reason I ask is there is a great UK ATO near me and they offer a great value SEIR. They’re not EASA approved so I’d need to do the upgrade at a different ATO.

I’d be able to legitimately say I obtained my MEIR and CPL with the same ATO, but I’d have done the bulk of SEIR training elsewhere.


any update on this? could I do the SECBIR at any standard UK school and then do the MEIR conversion at an EASA ATO to get the dual-license?