How low can you go [Archive]

john_tullamarine

4th Aug 2002, 11:54

Indeed .... from time to time I get away sailing on the Myall Lakes, north of RAAF Williamtown in Australia .... in the middle of their training area ...

I have no idea of the rules, but I presume that OCU students have a respectable limit with FCIs having more latitude .....

Oftentimes, after exercises doing whatever it is that training fighter pilots do, there is the semi-obligatory matter of targets of opportunity runs on any boats on the upper lake system ....

The best was some years ago ... I was sailing downwind with my feet up while the kids did all the work .. as fathers ought to be able to do from time to time ...... I saw the F18 come around the end of the particular section of the river we were on and approach the yacht astern in a quiet glide of sorts ..... he went past ... fast ... below mast height ...... got the attention of four wide-eyed kids like you wouldn't believe ..... when the taps were opened up ..... the vertical climb was more than impressive ....

Common experience on the lakes ......

PPRuNe Pop

4th Aug 2002, 14:01

In the early 70's when Ray Hanna was leading the Reds in the Gnats. I went up to the club the day after BoB day at Biggin Hill. The Reds were still there. I had my then 5 year old daughter with me and my wife. It was apparent that the Reds were getting ready to go.

So, waiting at the Main Road end, they flew off and then came back in a 'broken' 9 at anything from 'God knows what' up to about 30' and all hell broke loose. My little girl ran in every direction there was and my wife stood in absolute shock. I ducked! But what magic. Never seen anything like it since.

Three Wire

4th Aug 2002, 16:49

A long time ago, eight RNZAF Skyhawks were staging back to Ohakea through RAAF Williamtown. I was a lone Navy Skyhawk pilot on detachment to Willy.
After a raucous Saturday night in the mess, the Kiwis departed in two divisions of 4 early on Sunday morning. As the Kiwis are known for some spirited flying, I wandered off to the departure end of the runway to watch.
No 4 in each division was a TA4 carrying an extra D tank to make up for the small internal fuel cell. Everybody was probably close to MTOW as these guys had a long way to go. The aircraft rolled with ten seconds separation.
The last guy off suffered masses of hot air, and had to turn as he got airborne to cut the corner. He cleared the barrier by about ten feet, already rolling into a turn.
Exhilarating to watch, but must have been sweatbomb material for the last guy.
:cool:

Self Loading Freight

6th Aug 2002, 02:24

Can't remember exactly where or when, but it was on a beach a while ago, at an airshow -- probably Essex, given where I was living at the time it must have been. Late 80s or early 90s, certainly.

We'd seen a lot of nice hardware doing a lot of clever stuff. Then there was a loud noise out to sea, which became very loud indeed. Then there was a Vulcan. Then there was the loudest noise I ever heard in my life, as said device strolled overhead. Then there was a much louder noise, as it got bored with being so close to the deck, pointed upwards and went away.

Must have been one of the last outings for that frankly implausible machine. I do hope one of the various Vulcan restoration groups gets one up in the air again.

R

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

6th Aug 2002, 07:00

SLF.. Hear! Hear! Fantastic machine the Vulcan. Remember them in the early days at Farnborough; what a machine!

David Balchin

6th Aug 2002, 10:14

Sorry Mate that Tiger Moth might have been me!, But if you were working at the time you saw it, I'm not admitting to anything!!!:D

G SXTY

6th Aug 2002, 11:37

Not quite that dramatic, but was lucky enough to see an awesome display by a Harrier GR7 recently. This included ‘flying’ at about 10kts 100 yards or so off Southend seafront, then reversing, then going sideways. Ear splitting & jaw dropping.

(Unfortunately, it’s probably the same machine that’s just gone for a swim in the North Sea. :( Thank God no-one hurt.)

simon brown

6th Aug 2002, 12:48

John Tullamarine

I know what you mean about being "targetted"

I was on my way home one summers evening on a reasonably deserted stretch of road in Gloucestershire when 2 A10s based at the local MU in Kemble crossed over at about 150' one of which peeled off in a wide arc and commenced his "run" on my car at about 50' . I knew what he was up to so flashed my headlights at him ....he acknowledged with the the obligitory wing waggle.

Had I been quicker on the uptake I should have got my colleague in the front seat to take the rolled up projector case from the back seat and point it out the sunroof at the second guy that did the same thing!! I'd love a gauge his reaction as the innocent member of the public driving along points, what appears to be a blow pipe missile at him! although the effect of his 30mm cannon on my car would have been enough to spoil my day....

chiglet

6th Aug 2002, 18:48

My two pennorth.
RAF Buchan, April 1963..Two Buccs flew UNDER the Type 80 radar:D
RAF Fynningly BoB 1967....Vulcan Scramble..IMC for 5 mins after;)
Manchester Airport.....
1. Red Arrows Formation TO
2. F16 display [before ] Barton
3. Post Barton diplay by F3 Lightning:D :D :D
4. RAF Patrington [a Radar unit] was" beaten up" by F6 Lightnings of the FCDU Binbrook on disbandment [mid '67 I think] They flew below rooftop level:D except we lived in single storey chalet type buildings:eek: :D
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

7th Aug 2002, 14:26

..and the days of the "real" Farnborough Air Shows. The commentator (Oliver Stewart) screaming "and he's coming in over the Laffans Plain end nudging mach 1..." "He" would be below the height of the spectators in front of you so all you knew was when the noise wrecked your ears a second after he'd gone! The Vulcan Olympus test bed was quite a shaker too...

Divergent Phugoid!

9th Aug 2002, 04:52

Was on a last minute holls to Zakynthos in jun/jul 1993.

Whilst thoroughly bored on a round the island turtle tour, we were cruising between a cliff face and a small island, its peak being approx 100 asl, distance from cliff face to island being no more than 100 ft, the sea being quite choppy with approx 15 feet of swell when I spotted a small dot on the horizon directly infront of the vessel...

This dot was pointed out to a colleague and a brief joke was made about the seagul (theres one, theres another one etc..), when all of a sudden we realised that this seagul was travelling at speed, and getting bigger and bigger every split second...

There was no time to reach for the cameras, as this Aircraft, which we think may have been a Fiat/ Alpha jet or something similar, was directly on a collision course with us. And moving... FAST!!

We watched in amasement as the approaching aircraft, which we estimated to have been no more than 40 asl, flew on with no variation in heading....

Moments later, this aircraft being almost on top of us, the pilot realised that we were occupying the same space between island and cliff face, and rolled violently to port. The very moment the roll stopped the aircraft passed over and along side of us. The pilot did have a startled look on his face, a very startled look and very very BIG EYES!! He passed over usat no more than TEN feet clearence in height!! ( this was less than the distance from the top of the mast to our top deck position the mast being 12 ft tall!!)

As the aircraft passed over us and to our right between the island (no more than 50 feet between us and the island!) there followed the jet blast an incredible noise and a diaphram shaking like never before... clutching to bags and towels as the jet wash attempted to remove everything from the deck, including us!! (well it felt like it!!) We looked aft and saw this plane climb steeply towards two con-trails which were passing overhead at a range of about five miles... Beleived to be Phantoms, and a few seconds later we lost sight of him...

This was the highlight of the tour and we asked the captain how he managed to arange such a flypast for us, but the humour was lost in the translation.......

We didn't see any turtles on the tour, but I bet the Pilot did sitting there in the cockpit!!

flyboy6876

9th Aug 2002, 07:47

Back in the mid-80's, in RSA, a friend and I were out jollying in a C172 near the Kruger Park. This was fairly close to the main strike airfield for the SAAF in that part of the world at Hoedspruit.

We were rather suprised when a pair of Mirages hurtled by not more than a couple of hundred feet away from us and then went screaming up into the sky. Fairly shook the C172 up, and, needless to say, we were quite shaky of hand as well.

Loki

11th Aug 2002, 16:42

Saw film once of a Buccaneer (magic!) having a go at a pretend sam site during an exercise Red Flag. Sequence filmed from aforesaid location. Desert dust coming up from the wingtip vortices. Low? I`ll say!

PA-28

11th Aug 2002, 18:11

Loki

I know the clip you mean, it is rumoured to be out on the net somewhere, does anyone have the URL ?

PA-28

PILOT-WITH-ALTITUDE

11th Aug 2002, 20:08

Find it strange that as "Sonic" car alarms became popular in the early '90's then XH558 was taken from the airshow circuit.That final Vulcan"Full thrust" pull up at the end of it's routine was music to ones ears and the aftermath was the "chorus of the car park" for a couple of minutes as every car alarm within a mile or so trumpeted its departure. Pure magic:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

PAXboy

12th Aug 2002, 05:06

Firstly, on the Vulcan ... At the Bournemouth Air Show 1988 or 89, it's take off was the most fabulous bellyaching scream from a herd of tortured cows. The others in my party were holding their hands over their ears but I did not want to dim that sound. It rotated to the most ridiculous angle and went off like the proverbial bat out of hell.

This is borrowed from Tech Log, were there is a current thread about start up sequence ... Never flew a Vulcan when 'Mass Rapid' starts were allowed - but we still had the 'combustor' facility on most of them in the late 70s. You parked the throttles at the 50% position, selected rapid start and pressed the 4 start buttons in succession. An uncontrolled fuel/air explosion in the engine combustors spun up the engines in no time at all, as soon as they'd started and the gennies were on you started the PFCUs, 8 seconds later they'd all be running. You briefly cycled the throttles back to idle, then selected full power, turned left a few degrees off the ORP and thundered down the runway. 10-15 minutes later you'd be passing 40 000ft, still climbing...
Now that must have been a sight for sore ears :cool:

As to Harriers, I can relate a story of late father. In his retirement, he lived in the hamlet of Mothercombe on the coast about 17 miles east of Plymouth. He had made friends with a Harrier training captain who was based at Wittering, where my father was in the war. Subsequently, the man wrote the forward to dad's book.

For one training operation ... the crews had been advised that a nasty foreign dictator had escaped to England and was holed up in Mothercombe. Further, the 'gen' was that the 'dictator' and his floozy (my step mother!) would be taking tea on the lawn at a certain time on a certain day. ;)

The three Harriers arrived from the sea (south) and identified the cottage where the dictator was staying by the large table cloth that was spread on the lawn for 'tea'.

The Harriers passed over the collection of cottages in the single cul-de-sac road and then turned to make sure that they had fully destroyed the place.

Turning back from the sea again, they 'saluted' and roared off back to Wittering. According to my step mother, the villagers jumped out of their skins and could not understand why my father was grinning for a week. :D :D :D

john_tullamarine

12th Aug 2002, 10:38

... what an absolutely delightful tale ..... totally restores one's confidence in the war machine system, doesn't it ? I can only imagine the initial run over the village ..... presumably at something considerably less than an appropriate height ?

Flip Flop Flyer

12th Aug 2002, 11:43

At an airshow in Belgium yesterday (forgot the name of the place, tiny private airfield) with a rather respectable flight display. The award for "nosiest fcuker" went to the USAF B1B who came in very low on a downwind, lit the burners and pulled up. Impressive sound set. It did strike me a bit odd though, as he pulled up and rolled left begining what looked to be a 360 roll. But reaching inverted, he reversed his roll. Q: Does the USAF have a rule that prevents B1 crews from doing a 360 roll, whereas 2 x 180 is approved?

Most impressive off all was this french guy, a Mr D. Lapparent, and his SU26. This guy is most certainly certifiable, and what little understanding I thought I had of aerodynamics went down the drain. Apparently, nothing beats a big engine and a massive prop! For fecks sake, this guy traversed sideways with an AoA of, say, 80° at something like 10kts. He also took the SU26 straight up and then throttled back (I could hear the engine rev'ing down!) and just hung there. Throttled back a bit more and descended vertically still pointing straight up, then added power and climbed! I can't even describe the things he did with his flying machine. Amazing, and nothing will convince me that he didn't have an anti-gravity device installed somewhere. Did make the subsequent F16, Mirage 2000, Tornado etc. displays seem rather boring.

PAXboy

12th Aug 2002, 19:42

John_T, glad you liked it :)

My only complaint was that dad had not told me about it in advance - if he had, I would have been in Devon faster than the Harriers!!!!

I cannot recall the height but Mothercombe is on a steep sided hill, the land slopes down to the sea very rapidly. So, as they shot over the the houses (dropping their munitions!) they would have had to be pulling back very strongly. Come to think of it, the attack run would have had to have been started from a position below the street (close to sea level) and then be climbing steadily throughout. 'Appropriate' height might have been mentioned at the briefing but not considered thereafter!

Again, if I recall correctly (this was about five or six years ago) two of the a/c were attacking and the the third was the Taining Capt (He is a Grp Cpt now) to observe. So three of them at zero altitude must have been simply glourious.

chiglet

12th Aug 2002, 22:11

To paraphrase Roger Bacon, ahhhhhhhh NOISE:) :) :)
I was lucky enuff to be at RNAS Lossie in 1963 for "Navy Day" when SIX Scimitars went past at Warp7:D :D
Also at RAF Finningly in '67-'68 [can't remember] when we had the Full Monty "VULCAN Scramble":D :D :D :D
The runway was IMC for about 10 mins:) Oh Happy days
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

compressor stall

12th Aug 2002, 23:33

A least 2 memorable experiences....

1. Camping just in the saddle next to Mt Kosciuszko (Australia's highest hill") tending the little trangia stove, when I heard a shout from the person sitting next to me. Looking up, the sky was filled with a FA-18. The first noise came a split second later - he was moving....

2. Standing on a small hill on the Norwegian highlands. Looking at the wonderful autumnal colours, I spied two small dots, getting bigger as they moved towards us. they were Norwegian A.F. F16s, as as they hamered past, slightly below us, but only a few metres away, one of them waved.

john_tullamarine

13th Aug 2002, 06:25

.. brings to mind a superb solo display from a few years back ...

Airshow in country Victoria (Australia) ... all very predictable but OK .... the finale was an RAAF ARDU Miracle which was first seen holding out at a modest distance .. making a little smoke ... as the assembled crowd ambled off to their various velocipedes ...... in he came .. and as the roar rolled across the field, the crowd ... in a wave which followed the sound .... turned to witness the following 10 minutes of delightful idiocy ....

Cloudbase was probably 800 feet at the time ..... the display included all the usual things one expects from a Mirage ... including loops into the cloud and bottoming out at, I guess, no more than 15-20 feet above the runway ..... multiple twinkle rolls ... including a few with three or four rolls which I have been told is a no-no due to roll-yaw coupling ..... during one of these (and they were all at a sufficiently low height to see the terrain above the aircraft's flightpath) he got caught and, for a moment, my heart was in my mouth .. but he recovered and got away with it ....... in the end ... they must have radioed to tell him to "go away" .. or words to that effect .... I am sure he was just going to keep enthralling the multitude there present until he got down to bingo fuel .....

treadigraph

13th Aug 2002, 10:10

Closest I ever got was Stefan Karwowski (I think) in Spencer Flack's beautiful red single seat Hunter - it was at a Dunsfold Families Day, either 81 or 82 and we were at the extreme eastern end of the display line - he came curving in from the east and slightly behind us , in the turn to hit the display line and - just - clipped the crowd line - knife edge, pratically overhead, low and fast - wow! Not fast enough for the blue note (though else where on this forum someone said only certain marks achieved it), but awesome nonetheless - and a big buffet from the wake turbulence...

Also at Biggin '83 on the Friday just to the west of the 03 threshold on the main road watching the arrivals. Someone, probably John Watts or Mark Hanna arrived in the OFMC Pilatus P-2 and proceeded to beat up the airfield, coming towards me with the prop arc seemingly at head height - despite an 8 foot fence between me and the aircraft I felt the urge to duck. He cleared me by a good few feet though!

Incidently, I always used to pay one day at Biggin and watch the show from the road the next - a few times while standing there I saw people right under the approach get the lunch scared out of them by a Tornado or similar coming over the road at bus-top height under reheat...

And I saw a good pic of Ken Ellis spreadeagled at Bembridge as Ray Hanna's P-40 passed a dozen or so feet above his head!

jimgriff

13th Aug 2002, 11:54

Those of you familiar with the Dovey Loop in Mid Wales will know the route from the Cross Foxes pub and down towards the sea over the Talyllyn Lake. It is a steep sided valley with a long road on the side.
A few years ago, I was sat on my Honda VF750 at a traffic light (roadworks) facing up the valley, when a Phantom F4 came at 90* through the top gap at about 20' and leveled out below the level of the road. I flashed my headlamp at him as he came towards me (v. fast) and as he flew past the Nav looked at me and a white goved hand gave me the V sign as they sped past about 40 feet away. WOW! Silly grin day or what?

BEagle

13th Aug 2002, 23:30

Honington, late 70s. Visiting Vulcan crew are heartily peed off with being called 'V-force w***ers' by the Bucc mob for the previous 2 days, so decide to go home in style from the static display. Get airborne with full power, turn downwind at 150ft, climbing to 500ft. Then come back along the southern taxiway at 350KIAS and 50ft on the rad alt, then over the main parking area before flying between the tower and 12 Sqn's hangar. Then up into the climb with a wingover at 150 deg angle of bank onto course back to Scampton - and the biggest bollocking we.....err, I mean they ever got.

But it impressed the punters..... But not our....err, their Wg Cdr!!

ORAC

14th Aug 2002, 06:09

Measles rock, Mount Alice.

B****r 20ft, 10ft would have stretched it on a couple of occasions. (Best, however, was FIGAS who did a touch and go on the helipad just to show who was best. Not bad for an Islander)

And the last 3 ship F4 flypast when the F3s took over and the F4s were scrapped on site. The cloud base was low over the hill and the F4s climbed the side, rolled and pulled through and all you could see was the faces looking down from the cockpits, waving, as with only their canopies visible below the cloud base, they pulled through and thundered down the far side of the hill.

Mind you, I would love a copy of THE low pass at Alice by a certain pilot, if someone has a copy after all these years?

BEagle

14th Aug 2002, 06:27

Yes - that is indeed an impressive video. Can't help thinking that not all of it was intended to be that low though. Particularly after he flies over the site and is still descending below the top of the mountain on the far side.....

(Sorry, don't have a copy. Saw it years ago on my EWO course when someone put it on the VCR!)

PLovett

14th Aug 2002, 06:55

Yeah.....Vulcans.

BoB day, Biggin 74, I think. Approaching across the field towards the crowd (no woosy restrictions then), gear down, doors open. Clean up, nose up, noise up, straight up.

What a sight.:D :D :D :D

DamienB

14th Aug 2002, 07:59

For sheer noise, having some ****** at Cottesmore hover directly over me can't be beaten. Him and 2 mates had been coming into land, and the last one hovered backwards for a bit to be directly overhead the group of photographers near the runway end, just outside the fence. Blew umbrellas and things all over the place and couldn't hear a damn thing for about 10 minutes. Not so much a low pass as a low squat-on-top-of-you really.

My father tells a story about a Skyhawk low pass he saw once when he was in the RN. Approached his ship at below deck height and pulled up going over the ship, flashing past just above the main gun and at about eye-level with the bridge windows. Thankfully the two bombs he pickled off took the same trajectory because he left it too late and just made BIG splashes in the sea a few hundred feet away. Unfortunately one his mates had better luck a few days later.

Pom Pax

14th Aug 2002, 08:04

Haddenham, Cambs North of Oakington and East of Wyton.

There used to a brickworks North of the village with a tall chimney,
saw a Vampire one evening come off the fen going N-E who had to bank right to miss the chimney.
Later had the chance to see the same sort of thing from the other side, arrived back with outboard fuel in the NF10 so my driver (Pat S.) decided to burn it off running down the Solent jumping yatch masts, called it 10 mins local, all the way to Poole and back to Thorney.

lunkenheimer

4th Sep 2002, 15:06

I was at 'First Flight Memorial' in Kitty Hawk North Carolina, on a vacation one year. The monument is a stone obelisk on top of a fairly high sand dune.

My (now-ex) wife and I were just starting to leave the monument when I happened to notice two F-14s coming in low. They circled the monument and hill, about 50' above us, lit the burners, and roared back up north.

Still don't know why I looked up-there was absolutely no sound on the way in, but quite a roar as the tomcats departed.

It turns out that the monument is a common training run landmark for Navy planes out of Oceana NAS (near Norfolk Naval Base) so this wasn't a special treat just for me :D

Vfrpilotpb

4th Sep 2002, 19:10

Watching Lighnings depart from Valley (EGOV) in the early 70s in the most violent vertical trajectory that could be imagened, was then, and still is my most endearing thought of power most awsome!:cool:

Lu Zuckerman

4th Sep 2002, 20:00

If it is just noise your interested in how about these two experiences. Both occurred while I was a Tech Rep on the Atlas ICBM.

In one case I was walking alongside an Atlas as it rested in the coffin complex. The Air Force was exercising the control radar, which sent control signals to an antenna on the roof of the complex. They would send control signals, which in turn would cause the rocket engines to displace, as they would in powered flight. The generated signal was so strong that it overcame the grounding circuits causing two 1000 Pound Second rocket motors to ignite. I was three feet below these rockets when they went off and it was like two shotguns going off next to my ears.

In another instance I was checking out the hold down and release system which consisted of two large pneumatic rams that under pressure held the Atlas into the launcher. At a predetermined time the internal pressure would be vented and the missile would be released from the launcher.

In the test the rams which have 750 Cubic inches of displacement and are pressurized to 5500 PSI with Nitrogen gas. The launcher is inside of the coffin complex and I was about six feet from one cylinder and sixteen feet from the other cylinder. I had no hearing protection and when I pressed the release button the valves opened and the rams blew down to ambient in about 2/10th of a second. That noise was like standing next to the barrels of two 155mm cannons.

:cool:

Smaug

6th Sep 2002, 22:39

Someone out there must have had this happen to them..

A couple of years back I was involved with testing parachuting stuff at China Lake, Ca.

Well one weekend I sense terminal boredom setting in so I take a drive out to Death Valley. Its pretty much an all day drive there and back and there is one particular stretch of road just North of a place called Truna (I think) that is particularly straight for about as far as the eye can see. So its getting dark and Im heading back and I suppose im not really as attentive as I should be.. I think I sensed rather than heard it first, when this b##tard in his F18 sneaks up from behind and practically takes my roof off then pulls up and half rolls away! I tell you I could FEEL the heat.

Initially I was p##sed off cos hed scared the s##ts out of me, then saw the funny side and grinned all the rest of the way back.

Liobian

7th Sep 2002, 14:32

Whilst I share the sentiments behind all the memories of the Vulcan, and recall a shattering spiral climb out of Leuchars some years ago, I reckon pride of place must go to the Lightning. Not many references to it here, sadly, but I can remember the sight and SOUND of (was it ?) 74 Sqn's aerobatic team departing Farnborough for their display. Now, that was an experience ! :D

Cat.S

7th Sep 2002, 17:39

In the early 70's I was on the receiving end of a demonstration of close ground support by a squadron of USAF F4s just back fro 'Nam'. They really did mean CLOSE too!

sycamore

8th Sep 2002, 18:03

Orac and/or Beagle
Mt.Alice
What was it and when-just professional interest of course?
Wasn`t a Kiwi perchance?;)

DamienB

11th Sep 2002, 07:34

ORAC/Beagle - this sort of thing, was it?

(Sent to me by a chap whose email address sadly bounced so I can't even say thanks!)

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/f4low.jpg

Fishtailed

9th Jan 2006, 13:12

Following on from the Lightning high altitude discussions, how about how low can they go.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/lowlightning.jpg
Does anyone know who, when and where. XM968 is just visible on the original.

chevvron

10th Jan 2006, 13:04

The presence of a yellow 'trainer band' around the rear fuselage indicates it was taken in the late '50's/early '60's, but then I'm not sure when the T4 first flew; no doubt Lightningmate will though!
I'd venture to suggest it could be a test flight at Warton, and they've selected gear up before pulling into a climb, but then I'm probably wrong!!

Tarnished

10th Jan 2006, 13:49

I've seen this pic before and spoken to the pilot (non-flying) who was in the right hand seat on a famil ride. I believe that it was a couple of test pilots flying out of Boscombe Down early 1960's. Pax was not best pleased by attempts to impress its fair to say. Lomcevak might care to ask CR for a comment on the picture.

Tarnished

I am still trying to find a picture which actually has a lower Lightning, but I can't remember which site I saw it on.

Agaricus bisporus

10th Jan 2006, 15:55

Who?

Fekkin eejit!!!

That's who!

Saab Dastard

10th Jan 2006, 18:48

Wasn't there a smilar thread about the Eurofighter Typhoon recently ;)

Onan the Clumsy

10th Jan 2006, 18:51

That's a hell of a slip he's in :}

Actually, that's not a yellow training band. It's the background seen through the gap where the tail separated

===

Wait a minute, isn't this the famous picture that was fed to the Russians to make them think we were having trouble with the Lightning programme? Hang on a moment...Oh yes, here's the original, undoctored photo: http://photobucket.com/albums/y272/onan_the_clumsy/?action=view&current=lowlightning2.jpg

BOAC

10th Jan 2006, 20:29

A gem, Onan!:)

LOMCEVAK

10th Jan 2006, 22:09

Tarnished,

I most certainly will ask CR next time I see him! Is the other picture you are looking for of a certain Kiwi at Akrotiri? If so, I know the one you mean and will have a scan.

Rgds

L

treadigraph

11th Jan 2006, 08:05

Thanks Onan, I now have a coffee flavoured keyboard!

Tarnished

11th Jan 2006, 13:59

Lomcevak, give CR my regards

The piccy I am after IIRC was actually a Binbrook F3 who was a little bit premature with the gear and settled onto the ventral tank, which then ruptures and caught fire. He continued (unaware initially of the fireball he was dragging) to get airborne, the tank was soon emptied and the fire went out, and he landed, pick up his best hat, cleaned his shoes and pressed his No1s in preparation for the nest event.

Tarnished

I saw the piccy not long ago on a website somewhere but can't for the life of me find it again.

BOAC

11th Jan 2006, 16:31

Are you sure that was not Wattisham - who had a bit of a fortnight!

27mm

12th Jan 2006, 09:53

Recall at least 2 premature gear retraction / ventral tank fires etc; not 100% sure of the locations (Wattisham or Binbrook), but remember the mates, whose intials are GF and ES respectively.

pmills575

12th Jan 2006, 11:14

It certainly happened at Wattisham in 1971. I remember standing in the Radar section overlooking the runway and seeing three quarters of it ablaze! Most of Wattisham commuted to Honington for a few weeks whilst Wattashambles runway was fixed. It was rumoured that some pilots would hit the U/C up button as they lined up and let the airspeed switch bring the gear up. Unfortunately the airspeed switch made a little too early!

Gainesy

12th Jan 2006, 15:59

At Akrotiri 56Sqn would break into battle pairs as the gear was travelling. Made for some spectacular take offs.

lightningmate

12th Jan 2006, 16:19

Premature gear retraction is not a strictly correct explanation. The usual reason for this rather embarrassing event was failure to ensure the aircraft was not allowed to sink back down onto the runway post rotating airborne and retracting the gear. The F3 was prone to sinking if the bold, about to execute a snappy vertical rotation, aviator checked forward too soon after getting airborne. This was due to its flaps-up take-off configuration. The other possible gotcha was being down the back-end of a several ship stream rotation, the 'disturbed air' generated by them up-front could start you back down dramatically unless care was taken.

Pre-selecting gear up was not a technique a sensible person would have used, and I am not aware of anyone even hinting that they did. Moreover, the up-selection protection system would have needed to be overridden to actuate the selector and that action remains visually obvious, unless you have the tool to re-set it.

lm

BOAC

12th Jan 2006, 18:19

I have an email from 'someone wot knows' who says the Binbook one was late '81 or early '82, andAn eyewitness at Binbrook saw the white fuel streaming from the ventral. When xxxxx lit the burners to get off, the reheat plume lit the fuel stream and the result was truly spectacular. The burning plume burned out the ventral tank. which puts an interesting slant on the claims that the plume would not reach the aeroplane (fuel-dumping thread elsewhere)

No success with the picture chase, however, and 2 Wattisham Mk3's confirmed doing runway grooving trials in the early/mid 70's. Initials spared to avoid embarrassment:)

bolmas

12th Jan 2006, 18:30

i remember the binbrook one, it looked like the space shuttle with all the flames and smoke. i shot out of the sqn teabar and onto the lawn to watch!!

IFHP

12th Jan 2006, 21:20

I watched the Binbrook one, awesome sight. The flame was very long and the scratch in the runway was even longer.Fortunatly I was not on the Sqn that needed to replace the tank.

Fishtailed

13th Jan 2006, 18:24

Maybe the pilot wasn't on oxygen, but where was the cameraman on this, prone?
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/head-on-hunter.jpg

BEagle

13th Jan 2006, 19:15

Oh Lord, not more of those f*****g stupid SOAF cowboy pictures.....

The Rocket

13th Jan 2006, 21:38

I know BEags.

What kind of fool gets his kicks out of Extreme low flying?!

You'd never get that in the "Civilised Vickers Fun Bus":rolleyes:

Then Again........
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=51638

Vfrpilotpb

14th Jan 2006, 11:01

When I was much younger I used to have some very nice breaks down at Rhosnieger on Anglesy, I stayed at the Rhosnieger Bay Hotel( now burnt down) and had the front corner set of rooms that overlooked Valley, I and my sons have stood many times and watched in awe the Lightnings streak vertically heavenwards literally dissappearing from sight, and then seeing the F4 lining up someway out to sea towards Ireland we could see their exhaust plumes well before the tiny speck was apparent many of those landed almost as if in a controlled crash!

Then driving around to the main gate area to watch the Gnats resplendant in red with white flashes getting ready for a typical RAF multi craft lift off with many of the Pilots taking a few seconds to wave at many of the children and dads who were captured by these brilliant RAF aircraft and pilots!!

many happy days

Vfr:)

Georgeablelovehowindia

14th Jan 2006, 14:17

The Rocket: Can't vouch for how much 'hot water' Victor Mike's captain got into, but the first officer went on to become General Manager Flight Training (and Flight Training Manager Concorde)!

Prince Charles, who was guest of honour at the display, remarked that the underside of the aircraft looked dirty.

G-ARVM was permanently allocated to training, due to some technical reason.

BOAC

14th Jan 2006, 15:32

underside of the aircraft looked dirty. - hopefully not grass stains:)

Firestreak

15th Jan 2006, 09:56

The picture of XM 968 was taken at Boscombe on 10 May 1962 flown by S/L Robbie Lees and F/L Clive Rustin (who was said to very unimpressed at the time). The briefed sortie was an assessmant of the PAS at 50,000ft but Lees did a flypast for the A&AEE photographer.

The info and the photo is on page 103 of Vol 1 of Stewart Scotts excellent books on the Lightning.

lightningmate

15th Jan 2006, 11:04

Ahh - that CR, been head scratching that one all week. How could I have forgotten? A few years ago, never answer the phone at Farnborough after 1700, or you could be there until 1830 :O.

Lomcevak, what is the good gentleman doing these days?

lm

chevvron

15th Jan 2006, 16:14

Clive Rustin? He who had to be first at everything? Like being the first one to bang out of a Jaguar? Got posted from OC Flying Farnborough to Boscombe in late '74 or early '75, and was still a Wg Cdr at Boscombe in late '85 when I last saw him.

LOMCEVAK

16th Jan 2006, 21:44

I am sure that Clive Rustin will be touched by the fact that people are asking after him! He is still living in the same village and house that he has lived in for many years. He is very active in the ETPS association, a role which means that he drops in to my office quite frequently! He is still very much in touch with aviation and holds a current PPL although he doesn't do as much flying as he would like (but who does!).

When I see him next I will ask for more details about the aforeposted picture.

And as for very low flying such as in the SOAF piccies, I for one find it very exhilarating flying in that manner, and it can be done safely if in the right place. Individual pilots must recognise their own minima, stick to them, know the handling characteristics of the type that they are flying, and not try to compete with others who are happy to fly lower. The rules are another matter and I am not advocating hooliganism nor rule breaking, but if you don't have a rule.......... Ah, the good old days.

Tarnished

16th Jan 2006, 21:55

From someone who used to "raise the gear and descend to operating altitude" Lomcevak your comments on low flying are predictable and I am in agreement with them. But beware Beages will be after you very very soon.

Isn't there a picture of one of your take offs worthy of this thread?

Tarnished

Aah, found it

[http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/penric/buccaneer_05.jpg

Onan the Clumsy

16th Jan 2006, 23:57

It's too much effort to draw a set of wheels again :zzz:

Argonautical

17th Jan 2006, 08:30

Here's a scan from "Lightning Conversion Units 1960 - 1987" compiled by Sqn Ldr Gordon Moulds, showing a T5 taking off with a plume of flame behind it. The text does not describe the photo but they got away with it as XS418 is not listed as being lost.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/argonautical/XS418.jpg

Tarnished

17th Jan 2006, 13:18

That's similar to the one I'm after, but the one I want is of Mk 3 (either LTF or 11(F)Sqn) actually dragging a flaming ventral tank along the runway at Binbrook. I'm begining to think I might just have imagined I have seen such a picture!

Tarnished

rhajaramjet

18th Jan 2006, 12:28

Argonautical - I think that pic captioned XS418 is actually XP700 at WTM in 1972. There was another similar accident there in 1971, with ES in XR711, although he didn't get airborne. There was one I know of at Colt in 1966 when PFH also 'stayed down' in XM213, as did GP at AKR in 1966 in XR714. 'Ltgmate' summed up the predicament pretty accurately, and was certainly a large factor in both ES's and GP's accidents.

Dop

18th Jan 2006, 13:57

Fishtailed: I think the photographer was perhaps a long way off with a really good telephoto lens! At least I hope so for his sake!

Argonautical

19th Jan 2006, 11:41

rhajaramjet, it is XS418 and here is the previous photo in the book and perhaps I should have posted them together.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/argonautical/T5_xs418.jpg
Strangely, the book does not descibe this particular incident but does describe the other incidents mentioined in the thread and here is a scan of the text.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/argonautical/text.jpg

The Rocket

20th Jan 2006, 22:34

Argonautical.

You can't tell lies. That's the same picture we started with, only with a better set of wheels than Onan drew on :p :p :ok:

BOAC

21st Jan 2006, 07:10

ehem! Order...order! I trust that was humour, Rockey man? I've just popped in from helping to look after the 'Spotters' Balcony' to point out that is a T5.:)

rhajaramjet

23rd Jan 2006, 22:37

Sorry Argonaut, but Gordon Moulds sowed a bit of confusion with his captions on those pics. The right main gear of XS418 folded when Henry Ploz landed at Stradishall in '68 and he stayed down - went off the right side of the runway in fact. So the susequent pic on page 43 cannot be XS418. I still think it was GF at WTM

rigpiggy

24th Jan 2006, 00:58

The Sabre had an u/c handle in a rather out of the way spot, and during scrambles it became usual to select the u/c up on the taxi out. problem being the squat switch woulld activate over bumps on the taxiway at high speed oops.

Argonautical

24th Jan 2006, 08:46

Thanks rhajaramjet for putting the matter right. Here is a photo of XP700 in happier times.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/argonautical/xp700tw.jpg
Picture © Terry Waddington Collection

GeeRam

27th Jan 2006, 07:03

The piccy I am after IIRC was actually a Binbrook F3 who was a little bit premature with the gear and settled onto the ventral tank, which then ruptures and caught fire. He continued (unaware initially of the fireball he was dragging) to get airborne, the tank was soon emptied and the fire went out, and he landed, pick up his best hat, cleaned his shoes and pressed his No1s in preparation for the nest event.
Tarnished

Mr.P, said driver of this 'chariot of fire' incident didn't have the intials AP by any chance?

jabberwok

31st Jan 2006, 11:46

Apologies if you've seen this before but I see our Russian cousins have the same problem..
http://www.crazyaviation.com/movies/Mig29crash.mpeg

TD&H

31st Jan 2006, 11:58

Jabberwok

That gave me a nice video of Concorde, always a treat to see.:ok:

jabberwok

31st Jan 2006, 12:22

How odd.. Definitely a Mig 29 on my system - complete with Russian commentary..

TD&H

31st Jan 2006, 13:15

Very odd indeed

The second time I tried it gave me the Mig? (Wonder if it was something previously viewed in Realplayer that decided to re-run instead of showing the Mig).

The Mig one looks more fun:E

ShyTorque

5th Feb 2006, 09:06

At RAF Linton in 1977, a "punchy" mate of mine was accused by his QFI of "dabbing" the brakes on hard towards the end of the takeoff roll in their JP3A. He said he certainly hadn't.

They completed the sortie but afterwards the QFI asked the groundcrew to check the tyres for flat spots.

The tyres were fine but the chief reported that half an inch of metal was ground off each main undercarriage bay door edge.

The gear had been retracted early over a bump, as the gear folded as advertised, the JP sank back on and dragged its u/c doors, which were still open.

Fishtailed

25th Nov 2006, 17:58

Here is a video of a Lightning pilot on his last flight frightning the camera man.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/th_Lightning.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/?action=view&current=Lightning.flv)

WHO, WHERE AND WHEN?

Harley Quinn

22nd May 2012, 10:07

Sort of in answer to a post by Ridge Runner over on the Challenge thread I came across this 747, check out the Blue Angels tails obscuring the 747 at the end.

Frys 747 Low Flyover - YouTube (http://youtu.be/9hBTYEMkEV4)
(http://youtu.be/9hBTYEMkEV4)

Lightning Mate

22nd May 2012, 12:01

THIS is low.....

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/jaguar035iq.jpg

izod tester

22nd May 2012, 17:51

This lower:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/T6_1sm.jpg

(with acknowledgements to Flying Lawyer)

Lightning Mate

22nd May 2012, 18:02

Try it at 500 knots IAS with no gear!!!!

BOAC

23rd May 2012, 10:35

If that was 500kts the pilot was out of his mind!

Lightning Mate

23rd May 2012, 10:46

Well mate, I know who it was and he isn't/wasn't.

I've seen eight feet on the radalt with the gear up, and the Jaguar was rock steady.

Ridge Runner

23rd May 2012, 11:10

I've seen eight feet on the radalt with the gear up, and the Jaguar was rock steady.

Was that just after take-off, David :) I reckon the Omani Jag was a PS'd image? .... :E

RR

Groundloop

23rd May 2012, 11:24

I reckon the Omani Jag was a PS'd image? ...

Jaguar pilots in Oman were notorious for low level beat-ups.

Lightning Mate

23rd May 2012, 11:28

I reckon the Omani Jag was a PS'd image?

Not so Martin - it's genuine and happened all the time in SOAF.

The chap taking the photograph was briefed not to take it standing up.

Now get yer bum back to SC........

dixi188

23rd May 2012, 11:32

And the Hunters.

About 1978 at Seeb, three of them flew between base ops and below the tails of the One-Elevens parked outside. IIRC the gap was about 150ft (paced it out) and they were in V formation. The One-Eleven tail is 25ft high.

Lightning Mate

23rd May 2012, 11:38

Yep - everyone did it.

The flying order book had about one page!!

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/Lowdown13.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/jag.jpg

Lightning Mate

23rd May 2012, 12:42

Just for you dixi:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/lowHunter.jpg

Harley Quinn

23rd May 2012, 19:22

Jag moving dust (too dry for mud)

Jag (http://youtu.be/FhmwNUoF5AI)

Also RAFAT in '69-70 with sound by the Quo

Gnat (http://youtu.be/ljofhhdDGPo)

And can someone tell me how to embed videos please.

Hipper

23rd May 2012, 20:00

There's plenty of low flying big planes on youtube, some of it real.

Look for B-52, Lt Col Holland, who finally pushed things too far with inevitable consequences.

I don't know if this one's real:

Unbelievable passenger jet stunt - YouTube

but if it is it's a bit dangerous!

Harley Quinn

23rd May 2012, 20:09

This is how they used to do it in a big 4 engined delta, and no, it's not a Vulcan (http://youtu.be/yFPgur_cUmA)

nvubu

24th May 2012, 22:47

A little bit too low:

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/NewStories-C/Lower%20than%20a%20snake/Lowdown30.jpg

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/NewStories-C/Lower%20than%20a%20snake/Lowdown24.jpg

I liked these two:
http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/NewStories-C/Lower%20than%20a%20snake/Lowdown88.jpg

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0/Vintage_Stories/NewStories-C/Lower%20than%20a%20snake/Lowdown50.jpg

These and more can be found here (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/325/language/en-CA/Lower-than-a-Snakes-Belly-in-a-Wagon-Rut.aspx)

I guess that most people have seen this - if you haven't there's a wee bit of swearing at the end :ok:
Danger - Low Flying Aircraft - YouTube