Rear Entry

[SpringHeeledJack]

Now that I've got your attention ;-) I have taken 2 flights recently where I was sitting on the last 2 rows of the aircraft and did both a rear entry and exit both sectors, so in fact it was no real hardship I don't normally sit at the back for whatever reasons, but not the "I only turn left darling" attributed to a Sloane-y acquaintance back in the 90's. At the rear of the aircraft the last 2 overhead lockers on both sides covering 4 rows of seats were very full with items belonging to the crew and company, rendering no storage space for those who had paid for larger cabin baggage items. The crew just shrugged their shoulders and were no help to those affected. So my question is why do both airlines and manufacturers plan and allow this to happen ? I had a small rucksack, so could tuck it under the seat in front, but for many of the others it was either 'steal' overhead space from other passengers in the rows in front causing arguments , or suffer the matter of no foot/leg space. In this case the aircraft were Airbus, but in the past I've seen it on Boeing and McDonnell Douglas et al when visiting the rear toilets and galley. Why purposely annoy and alienate the very people paying for your services, namely the customers ? Surely the crew deserve a small space, even one that goes under floor level to house their personal items etc ? Thoughts welcomed, it just seems illogical, rather like those lovely IFE boxes that BA used to have on the 777's that took more than half of the passenger's footspace on long haul flights.

[Gargleblaster]

Got my attention, didn't read the post, but I know when it's about to happen, that's when my female AME whips out a blue glove from the box. I comply naturally. God thanks for lubrication.. Have I derailed this thread ? Goodbye.

[DaveReidUK]

The crew just shrugged their shoulders and were no help to those affected.

If push came to shove, the crew would have no choice but to make sure that cabin baggage is stowed safely and didn't present a hazard.

Or have it put in the hold. :O

Or offload the pax. :O :O

[S.o.S.]

Gargleblaster You are a very naughty boy. :=

I am sure that everyone thought that SpringHeeledJack was referring to the built in air-stairs on the B727. :)

Then, DaveReidUK clouds the situation with "If push came to shove ..." TskTsk :*

[SpringHeeledJack]

I was S.o.S and have done it many times and on DC-9's of all sizes over the years as well ;-)

I thought that there might be more discussion on this subject, but I suppose on reflection 'down the back' for most of us is out of sight and out of mind. Perhaps if the situation was further up the cabin it would have come to head many moons ago.

[Globaliser]

Perhaps if the situation was further up the cabin it would have come to head many moons ago.Exactly the same problems are routine at the front of the cabin, with exactly the same complaints.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I have noted on wide-bodies the middle galley outside area having the odd issue with the closest locker, but there should be even less of a chance due to the gauge of the larger aircraft, surely ? It just perplexes me that something so obviously fixable is seemingly never fixed, or at least not thought about, or perhaps cared about ?

[S.o.S.]

SpringingJack you have just scraped back under the wire for reminding us of the DC-9 air stairs.

Any stories of Front Airstairs, as older 737s sometimes had?

[rog747]

SpringingJack you have just scraped back under the wire for reminding us of the DC-9 air stairs.
Any stories of Front Airstairs, as older 737s sometimes had?

Airstairs -- the built in ones - were so super Handy for Charter operations at Outstation Holiday airports with quick turnarounds, minimal ground equipment, and especially when the Iberia or Olympic Airways Handling Ramp Guys were on strike and you could get everyone on and off in minutes.

The Caravelle was the first Jet to have rear Ventral airstairs.
The BAC 1-11 (well, most of them) had airstairs both Forward and an Aft ventral, as did the DC-9 and Super 80 (except our six BMA Baby 9's that only had front stairs).
The 727 had the same options to have both, although many 727 operators omitted the forward ones.
Wardair had both fitted to their 727 CF-FUN for their intense Transatlantic charter operations, with refuelling stops at remote Greenland and Iceland airports.

The 737 had forward ones, and only a few, such as Condor's 737-130's and Mey Air's also had the Rear entry door that came with stairs built in as a Drop down feature.
TUI (Thomson Airways) for some reason never took the 737 front stairs option again after retiring their Britannia Airways 737-200's.

Today, Ryanair still has the forward airstair option fitted on its 737NG's and on their new 'Max' 737M8-200's.
(No idea if that also will be fitted on the larger 737M-10 variant)


The Court Line and LTU Tristars first came with a very elaborate folding arm 'double width' airstair that extended out of the Rear cargo hold.
Didn't last more than a couple of summers.

PSA's Tristars (they ordered 5) came with a forward drop down airstair/door that lead into the Lower Deck lounge from where a staircase ascended to the main deck cabin.
3 of those aircraft remained unsold when PSA did NTU their full order; Lockheed eventually after a couple of years, struck a deal with LTU to take them.
LTU often used the forward stairs.
Worldways Canada ended up with the other 2 aircraft.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x772/martinair_dc9_30_ph__6f00f5a6cc454bf395f2cf33596d9a525a7d46c 8.jpg
Leased to BMA for 2 days to op LHR-MME

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x699/0223120_cf4bdb1aadd25ef0ccf4c2eb24c7700a0ef60c5f.jpg
That's me, far left under the nose SEN 1967

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x584/11885402_800187820097962_5407848602757442059_n_460b019a3b8ed 5ac9ccabb665507fa7376b34400.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x577/11902376_800187770097967_7835463430173879306_n_ec5d00d982b30 9cffd37c2e95d773f63c35d53fa.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1300x1390/flugzeug_auf_landebahn_mit_flug_und_bodenpersonal_in_sri_lan ka_1980er_k35fyb_78b3e72ede12b91ae14d1a5b982945ef1a188328.jp g
LTU Tristar forward drop down airstair at Colombo

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/717x608/14102741_10210630062091868_8587127319376854005_n_390ac92e464 b5abd54fdbaa1e2e6306a380d24fc.jpg
Ibiza - rear entry heaven --- Can you imagine the din!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/6061727846_ec867c0847_b_fa7b0e3f46a4d2e77f4275a8e05c474ddb1f 74df.jpg

Wardair had both stairs fitted

[SpringHeeledJack]

Love the photos Rog! The 1-11 and the Caravelle! I'd forgotten about the rear ventral stairs on them and did my last flight on a 1-11 (incl rear exit) at LGW in a Dan Air example having flown in from Milan Malpensa in 1993-ish, and an Air Inter Caravelle a few years before that on an internal French flight. On all, the passage way that housed the ventral stairs wasn't exactly wide if memory serves.

[S.o.S.]

Rog747 Gets a Gold Star and is, officially, 'Best Boy' of the cabin, help yourself to a free drink from the bar.

[Hartington]

-In 1979 I boarded an Aeroperu 727. At least that was what it said on the outside. Inside it was pure Lufthansa down to the emergency instruction sheet. We sat on Lima airport for a while and then they offloaded us (weather in Cuzco). They used the ventral airstairs and the woman in front of me got to the bottom of the stairs, stopped, pulled out her cigrattes and lighter and tried to light up. I'm glad to say she failed.

[rog747]

Rog747 Gets a Gold Star and is, officially, 'Best Boy' of the cabin, help yourself to a free drink from the bar.

LOL, Ta ever so, all just pure Aviation geek history -
I'll have a can of BA's BrewDog House Blend called Speedbird OG Transatlantic IPA, which I recently sampled in Club Europe - all rather nice.

Hartington
Your Aeroperu 727 was ex Lufthansa Boeing 727-30C c/n 19312
broken up LIM 6/94
OB-R-1141 dd 3/78 to Aeroperu
D-ABIU dd 5/67 to Lufthansa Ulm

I forgot to mention that the Fokker F28 and F100/70 family had a drop down forward passenger entry door with stairs fitted.
Some F100 operators, such as Air Europe and British Midland Airways went for a conventional entry door with no stairs.

Airbus did plan for forward airstairs as an option for the A320.
BCAL actually went for this option on their A320 order and had them fitted to at least five aircraft (Not delivered to BCAL)

Article and photos here as delivered to British Airways in 1988/1989.
BCAL/BA A320 airstairs (https://travelupdate.com/ba-a320-integral-airstairs/)


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/747x489/british_airways_airbus_a320_111_g_buse_airstairs_at_lhr_by_s pa_photography_6e72380d8dbe88f0ce0016fb742f20ee4b1f6b63.jpg

A BCAL ordered A320





Here are the new 737 MAX 8-200 stairs in operation in 2024, with no obvious difference to the 1967 737-200 design.

Ryanair Boeing 737M-8200 retractable stairs



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x900/img_7237_grande_fc30bc527b90d18a279c73754c26004d4256d0c8.jpg

737M 8-200

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x900/img_7283_grande_ce7c43a45eb35191a830f0f684cfb17c6dd73340.jpg

737M 8-200

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1111x625/dsc_0704_62c53cc8024edeb83a64be21321fe2d3bdc48b33.jpg

Airbus did plan for forward airstairs on the A320...
BCAL actually went for this option on their first A320s, but no one else did....

Hence todays wait for 2 sets of steps to draw up, although I have to say that the Greeks are pretty swift, and they have 'steps on' PDQ at the Greek Island Holiday Airports..

[PAXboy]

I recall using the 737 ones and the 727 a couple of times. The system stored in the cargo hold must have weighed a fair bit. No surprise it did not catch on.

The picture of the LTU Tristar looks like a baggage belt, again, heavy.

[rog747]

The system stored in the cargo hold must have weighed a fair bit. No surprise it did not catch on.
The picture of the LTU Tristar looks like a baggage belt, again, heavy.

Yes there was a lot of weight.
In those days the arrival of an aircraft with more than 300 passengers at a small Mediterranean airport not yet equipped to handle such a large volume of people which often meant congestion of passenger and ground handling facilities.
To combat this problem both Court Line and LTU took up the option of integral rear airstairs in the main aft cargo hold, which could be extended without outside assistance.
The TriStars also came with electric baggage-loading belts at all 3 hold doors for bulk loaded luggage. (No ULD-AVE's were able to be used then)
However, these features meant additional weight and thus increased fuel and maintenance costs so, as the holiday airports gradually developed, these features were removed.
Both Court Line and LTU removed the cargo hold Rear airstairs during the winters when the planes went off to do long haul, such as to UVF ANU and MBA.
They never got put back on LTU after around a couple of seasons use, and of course Court Line then went under.

The LTU picture in my OP shows the Forward air stairs 'whilst in motion' as it unfolds to open down to the ground.
Only 5 L1011's were ever fitted with this.
All were -1's of the PSA order for 5, of which they only flew 2 in service.
Cathay Pacific were due to buy this pair of -1's, but did NTU in the end.
CX in the end ordered a brand new pair of HGW -100's for 1975
(which were CX's only brand new Tristar orders).
I was always surprised as to why LTU did not snap up Court Line's pair of -1's in 1974.
Those 2 also sat stored in the Desert until Cathay eventually took them on in 1977.

The other 3 ex PSA -1's sat unsold until LTU did a deal with Lockheed in early 1977 to take all 3 in Part Exchange for LTU's remaining -1 option, and to sell and lease back their first -1,
D-AERA to Eastern Airlines.
One of the PSA trio, D-AERU was converted to a -100 TriStar and was delivered to LTU later during 1977.
The original TriStar -1 was possible to have a conversion to the high gross weight L-1011-100, which in this case gave the aircraft the range to fly DUS-JFK non-stop.

Pacific Southwest Airlines (PSA) had ordered five L-1011s for its high-density California routes in 1970.
After receiving two in 1974 they were soon subsequently grounded due to their high operating costs when fuel prices had tripled, the airline then refused to take delivery of the final three it had on order.
This meant that Lockheed was stuck with three TriStars built with an interior designed specifically for PSA, including a lower-level passenger lounge converted from the cargo hold and lower deck galley areas, and also with an airstair, making the models incredibly difficult to sell on.

Despite filing a lawsuit against PSA, Lockheed worked with the airline to market the redundant aircraft, creating a full-colour brochure in June 1975 which promoted their specific design for short-haul high density operations or IT charters.
Included were provisions for the installation of the galley areas back up onto the main deck, although no offer was made to remove the downstairs lounge configuration.
A sale to Avianca Airlines of Colombia fell through in August 1976.
Discussions then began with LTU and in October that year an agreement was made to return its two initial TriStar -1s and replace them with the three new undelivered jets.
This would give the German carrier the high-density layout perfect for its charter operation, with a consistent standard of cabin configuration across the fleet.
As the new TriStars arrived LTU was able to expand into more long-haul operations, launching flights to Miami in November 1976.
Flights were also added to New York and Los Angeles in May 1977, with Sri Lanka and Bangkok joining the network as its first Asian destinations in November 1977, followed by the Maldives in 1981.
The L-1011 Tristar became LTU’s sole aircraft type suiting both the peak destinations such as Palma Ibiza Rhodes and Las Palmas, plus for long haul too.
Despite reservations about the lower-deck lounge, these remained in use with LTU until 1984 when they were removed by Eastern Airlines engineers in Miami.
Known as the ‘Club Lounge’ the exclusive area was reached by a staircase from the forward cabin and had a leather-framed bar, sofa style seats and, as there were no windows, two illuminated picture frames showing an exotic sun-kissed Spanish landscape.
It could accommodate 16 passengers who had the chance to upgrade for a small fee with meals served on china, extra snacks and free alcoholic drinks.




https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x806/psa_4104a6af5f6659c4e7f88483701ee731a09ef707.jpg
Unfolding


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x820/123202_big_2d65664c4a816cdb38b864558d1d2875c8532bfd.jpg
Forward airstair in use


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/250x192/airstairs_af81bbc72d7ed8c0a2fd8bcca49777dc62795e89.jpg
Rear Hold airstairs LTU

[treadigraph]

The 727's rear airstair was modified to incorporate the Cooper Vane after several notorious inflight incidents over the US... were any other types so modified?

[MAC 40612]

Now that I've got your attention ;-) I have taken 2 flights recently where I was sitting on the last 2 rows of the aircraft and did both a rear entry and exit both sectors, so in fact it was no real hardship I don't normally sit at the back for whatever reasons, but not the "I only turn left darling" attributed to a Sloane-y acquaintance back in the 90's. At the rear of the aircraft the last 2 overhead lockers on both sides covering 4 rows of seats were very full with items belonging to the crew and company, rendering no storage space for those who had paid for larger cabin baggage items. The crew just shrugged their shoulders and were no help to those affected. So my question is why do both airlines and manufacturers plan and allow this to happen ? I had a small rucksack, so could tuck it under the seat in front, but for many of the others it was either 'steal' overhead space from other passengers in the rows in front causing arguments , or suffer the matter of no foot/leg space. In this case the aircraft were Airbus, but in the past I've seen it on Boeing and McDonnell Douglas et al when visiting the rear toilets and galley. Why purposely annoy and alienate the very people paying for your services, namely the customers ? Surely the crew deserve a small space, even one that goes under floor level to house their personal items etc ? Thoughts welcomed, it just seems illogical, rather like those lovely IFE boxes that BA used to have on the 777's that took more than half of the passenger's footspace on long haul flights.

Getting back to the original point raised. Ultimately, the configuration is down to the airlines. The majority of whom, cram in as many seats as possible, so no locker/stowage space for crew bags. That coupled with the fact, that most passengers on short haul would rather take their bag on board, than check it in [even if their bag check in is free] for speed at the other end, plus the fact it might go missing if checked in. Even more than the normal 'scrum' of passengers [and crew] cramming bags into the overhead, most are completely oblivious to the weight limit stickers in all the overhead lockers. I wonder if passengers [and crew] would be so happy with everything crammed in, if they knew how lightweight the fixings for the overhead bins actually were [there is a reason for the weight limit]
With regard to the large IFE boxes under the seats, again it's all down to what airlines think passengers want and what passenger expectations are regarding IFE. I remember when I started working on airliners, then still had in-flight projectors, mounted up in the ceiling, that were so heavy they had to be winced up into position [You definitely wouldn't want one of those falling down on you!]
Airlines don't always get thing right though regarding what they think passengers will want. One of the big 'flops' for the vast majority of carriers were the in-flight telephone systems. They were just far too expensive for the majority of passengers to ever think of using..

[krismiler]

Turn around time is a major factor for airlines, particularly low cost ones and you’d be surprised how long it takes to get 200+ passengers off an aircraft. Only then can the security sweep, cleaning and restocking begin. Single aisle aircraft can be worse as it only takes one pax blocking the aisle for the whole process to grind to a halt.

It’s not always possible to use the rear door as the gate may not be equipped with two aero bridges and if steps are used there has to be security in attendance to monitor the pax because they can’t be unsupervised on the tarmac.

Built in aircraft steps aren’t as good as they seem, they add to the purchase price of the aircraft, are dead weight flown around and require maintenance when they break down. Typically pax can only embark and disembark in single file and there may be a limit to how many in total can be on the steps at once. Ground based steps are much stronger, allow dual file and are not normally limited in how many people can be on them at the same time.

Every minute counts, with turn around times of around 30 minutes being targeted.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I'm enjoying the nostalgic tangent the thread has taken, used to love seeing those LTU TriStars here and there back in the day.

Regarding the original question, I get that turn arounds are pressure filled endeavours, especially for low-cost carriers and I get that passengers prefer to take cabin baggage that is larger than it used to be (though they are charged a pretty penny for this courtesy) but as I see things atm, at least 12 fare paying passengers, who might well have paid extra to bring their luggage onboard with them have no available storage space because it will have been taken by the airline staff and airline equipment. It just surprises me that after so many years of product development by both airlines and aircraft manufacturers, that there isn't enough space designed into each aircraft that allows passengers free access to cabin storage and sufficient storage for staff items. I appreciate that this obviously isn't at the top of anyone's priority list and I have only given it thought due to sitting in and observing the repercussions of storage scarcity at the rear of the aircraft. Being pedantic, it's a kind of commercial prejudice where those sitting at the back of the aircraft aren't enjoying the same conditions as those everywhere else. That said, they are close to the rear toilets, so it's not all bad ;-)

[TCU]

One of the modern overhead carry-on baggage scrambles for space is the upper deck of an A380 in economy configuration.

In terms of "rear entry"....it is still regularly practised down here at CPT when boarding (but rarely deplaning) a wide body parked on one of the remote Eastern stands. In fact I always think its a rather lovely way to leave the Mother City on a fine evening (not so good I appreciate when its pissing down). Have also, in recent memory, used the rear steps boarding at DXB remote stands

Back in September 2011 I did a Scandi loop, LHR-GOT-ARN-CPH-LHR, just to fly the SAS Mad-Dogs (enjoying 2 x MD81's and 1 x MD87) before they were retired and was treated to a deplaning via the rear drop steps at ARN....the last time I ever enjoyed this unique feature, which like so many others noted, was a common experience the 1-11 heyday

[rog747]

Using the ventral airstairs.
I was just wondering when my very First, and my Last ''Rear Entry'' (LOL) boarding using the ventral stairs were (usually under the very LOUD APU running)

I think the firsts have to be either a British Eagle, or a Channel Airways BAC 1-11 in 1967 (I was 10).
Then I recall so many more BAC 1-11's from 1968 of Autair, Caledonian, BUA, Laker, Court Line, BMA, Bavaria Flug, Cambrian, BCAL, Dan Air, Inex Adria, Monarch, BIA and Airways Cymru.

A Sterling Airways Caravelle 12 - brand new in 1971.
Dan Air 727s when they first got them from 1973.
Sterling, and Pan Am 727's
Air Florida and Eastern 727's into and out of Key West - that WAS COOL.
Inex Adria DC-9s and Super 80's
Aviogenex 727.
Iberia 727
KLM DC-9
Aviaco DC-9
Martinair DC-9 33RC
BMA DC-9 32
Canafrica, Lineas Aéreas Canarias (LAC), Oasis, BIA, Airtours International, Airtours International/Finnair lease, Aero Lloyd, and Spanair MD-83s


I really cannot recall though when was my last boarding was - could be a Spanair MD-83 in the noughties?

My most notable rear airstair entry was a PBA Provincetown-Boston Airlines Martin 4-0-4 from Key West to Miami - that was awesome - in the 1980's.
Possibly the first ever type to have ventral airstairs >?

Sorry for the nostalgia (wipes eyes)

[PAXboy]

I agree with TCU that walking across the tarmac at CPT - in either direction is always good. My early experience of rear stairs was in SAA 727s in the 1970s. Then a couple in the USA but I cannot recall details.

I had no idea rog747 that any propliners had ventral stairs. I found pictures online.

[longer ron]

My last use of 'Rear Entry' was a couple of flights LGW - Faro in good ole Sabre Airways 727's :) circa 1997/98 ?
No idea who I booked the flights through though :)

[Asturias56]

Aberdeen has always been a great place for using the back door.........................

[treadigraph]

Wish I'd had the money to do a flight in a PBA Martin 404 when I was at Miami in 1984 - trip was rather a tight budget though. I don't suppose it would have been expensive at all...

[DaveReidUK]

Wish I'd had the money to do a flight in a PBA Martin 404 when I was at Miami in 1984 - trip was rather a tight budget though. I don't suppose it would have been expensive at all...

Only time I've ever seen one was not a million miles away from yours, and round about the same time.

Nassau, mid-80s, not sure if it was airworthy or WFU. Sadly, didn't have time to investigate it as I was being paid for being there - rotten job, but somebody had to do it. :O

[rog747]

Wish I'd had the money to do a flight in a PBA Martin 404 when I was at Miami in 1984 - trip was rather a tight budget though. I don't suppose it would have been expensive at all...

I was on Staff Travel - Non Rev - we got near freebies with Laker, Air Florida and on PBA at the times (1980's).

I used to go on holiday flying out from Gatwick to MIA, and then go down to Key West quite often back in the 1980's -
Awesome quaint place for a sunshine holiday back then. especially in the winter months. Roasting hot anytime after April or May.
Great cheap rustic B&B's and one rented a bike and we cycled everywhere.
Conch Fritters and Lime Margaritas was de rigueur for sunsets.

I either drove down from MIA in a Rental Car (so cheap back then for airline staff) on the Overseas Highways, stopping for Lobsters at one of the Keys, such as Marathon or Key Largo.
Usually then flew back to MIA to go home to LGW, or sometimes took the plane both ways.

One evening after an amazing 2 weeks holiday I went out to the tiny Key West Airport to get the PBA flight back to MIA (then we were standby on Air Florida to London - got First Class on that one, awesome!).
I was expecting the DC-3, but we were walked out from the little Terminal to the Martin and boarded using the rear ventral stairs.
Such a nice old plane.
Lovely balmy tropical evening to get on an old prop plane and take off over the blue seas and fly low level up the Keys to MIA.

The Air Florida and Eastern 727s in and out of Key West was quite a white knuckle ride.
40 flaps and loads of power on, for landing on the very short runway, I recall they had nose wheel brakes too.

[PAXboy]

Never heard of nose brakes but the 727 was well liked by flight crews. Certainly beat the pants of the trident - for well known reasons. For me, I have never liked the look of tri-jets. I don't know why but they have always seemed less than a 2 or 4.

[treadigraph]

Only time I've ever seen one was not a million miles away from yours, and round about the same time.

Nassau, mid-80s, not sure if it was airworthy or WFU. Sadly, didn't have time to investigate it as I was being paid for being there - rotten job, but somebody had to do it. :O

As I recall, that visit in '84 fielded a respectable number of surviving 404s, all the PBA and Marco Island Airways aircraft at Miami, Naples and Marco Island (I recall two dismantled PBA aircraft at KAPF), plus a number of others at various eastern Florida airfields - possibly a 202 as well. Memory says there was an example in faded USCG colours at Opa Locka - not sure if there was or if I've remembered someone else's pic. It was exactly 40 years ago, arrived at Miami on 24th February - almost the first thing I saw was my first Connie, Clipper Dick!

I used to go on holiday flying out from Gatwick to MIA, and then go down to Key West quite often back in the 1980's -


Drove down to Key West a couple of times (and had a ride with Fred Cabanas in his UPF-7!) and also later flew down in a C152 with a friend, with a brief stop at Marathon on the way back. Beautiful. Got a photo of sunset with a vintage sailing vessel heading out of the harbour area - what you can't see is the DC-6 rumbling overhead SW towards Central America...

[rog747]

As I recall, that visit in '84 fielded a respectable number of surviving 404s, all the PBA and Marco Island Airways aircraft at Miami, Naples and Marco Island. It was exactly 40 years ago, arrived at Miami on 24th February -

Drove down to Key West a couple of times and also later flew down in a C152 with a friend, with a brief stop at Marathon on the way back. Beautiful. Got a photo of sunset with a vintage sailing vessel heading out of the harbour area - what you can't see is the DC-6 rumbling overhead SW towards Central America...

Awesome days...

My Martin 404 flight was when Air Florida (QH) was still around and we still got very good Staff Travel Standby deals with them on their Gatwick-MIA run.
Air Florida would go under by summer 1984, so I think my PBA 404 flight was around between Feb and April 1984, or possibly one year earlier...1983.
My last holiday to Key West some years later, I recall going on a Bandeirante.

Provincetown-Boston Airlines (PBA) was founded in 1949 by John C. Van Arsdale in Provincetown, Massachusetts, on Cape Cod.
Seasonal expansion at PBA and contraction was the norm, but with year-round service to all locations.
The larger aircraft were flown in New England during the busy summer months, with the smaller aircraft operating in Florida.
In the winter months, the fleet would be swapped, with the DC-3s and Martin 404s migrating to Florida.
This expansion and the integration of all the new routes, aircraft and personnel, along with the purchase of Marco Airways in 1984 where PBA expanded into the Bahamas, but this brought about technical, safety and administrative shortcomings, which culminated in 2 crashes in July and September 1984.
One pilot was killed when a PBA C402 went down in the sea near Boston Logan, and then the crash of another C402 after take off at Naples FL where one passenger was killed.
An investigation revealed that the aircraft had been refuelled with Jet-A fuel rather than Avgas.
In November 1984, the FAA grounded the airline for this and many other safety violations.
In December 1984, the airline was allowed to return to the skies, but then days later came another fatal crash, when on December 6, 1984, 13 people were killed when a PBA Bandeirante crashed shortly after takeoff from Jacksonville FL. Mechanical problems were to blame for this crash.
Confidence in the airline was lost, the Company was losing money, which then saw the airline in big trouble, and PBA filed for bankruptcy.
PBA clung on with various bail out buyers, eventually merging with Bar Harbor Airlines and operating flights as Eastern Express before closing down in 1988.
The demise of the Airline that had boasted the Nation's oldest continuously operating airliner with a DC-3 N38PB built for American Airlines in 1939.
PBA also flew a DC-3 N136PB that was delivered to Eastern in 1937, she was the pride of the PBA fleet and was then the highest time airliner in the world.
PBA was one of the last U.S. airlines to operate the classic 40-passenger Martin 404 built in 1951 for TWA.



A great shame was when Air Florida went under and so another airline was lost on the Gatwick-Miami run (Laker had gone in 1982).
At their peak of 4 x DC-10 30's, QH would be busy at LGW with often 3 of their DC-10 aircraft seen a day at peak times.


I recall the chaotic scenes at Miami check-in just after the New Year holiday when I was trying to get home to London on Staff Standby, maybe 1982?
Laker had 3 DC-10 flights to Gatwick and all were chock full, so no chance there, and Air Florida had 2 to LGW and 1 to MAN but again no joy!
So I had to go back to my accommodation, and repeat the process on the next two evenings ----
Both GK and QH by now only had one flight each to LGW and again all were full - UGH!

So on night 3, I was running around like a maniac at MIA Terminal E trying to find an airline to get home on...
GK had just one flight, and the QH was delayed 12 hours.
BA and Pan Am were going to LHR but both their check-ins were at ''close-out''.
PAA said Yes we have a seat, but we cannot take your bag here, you have 5 minutes, so you will have to run like hell and take your bag with you to the gate and you may have a chance....Oh!
So, I thought I'm not gonna make that.
A nice lady at BA was just taking down the ''Heathrow'' signs (sigh) above the BA check-in desks and I ran up to her, where she said ''You were here last night!''
I replied Er Yes, and the night before...She said ''Hang on a minute''...
By now the Terminal and check-in areas were almost empty as all the Europe departures were leaving or had left already.
The nice BA lady came back with a Boarding Card and said ''There you go, I can take your bag here, but you do have to run!''
It was a Boarding Card for a seat in Super Club!
I've never run so fast before LOL.
The Fillet Steak was rather nice.

[treadigraph]

My trip to Miami in '84 was with Air Florida... thoroughly enjoyed it, first airline flight in quite a while - recall looking out of the window and seeing Norfolk and Oceana NAS below and Cape Hatteras off the wingtip...

PBA, apart from the 404s there were DC-3s, YS-11s, 402s and the Bandits - past its heyday for propliners but still plenty of them. Mentioned N136PB in the |Telegrapg comments the other day, she's still flying.

As for Self Loading Freight using rear airstairs... one extricated one's self from a Dan-Air 727 at Munich in 1986!

[pax britanica]

Rear airstairs

A few times on 727s , Eastern Air Canada and several time son extremely loud 1-11s . Living in Stockholm and flying round the Nordics on innumerable DC9-MD80s , the latter I really liked flying on. Always the APU noise and for practical reasons SAS Finnair didnt use the airstairs in the many winter months as outside temp at Helsinki could be -30 mid winter . Always something a bit more special using steps , especially open ones for a flight but jetties cannot be beat for bad weather or wayward pax. I suppose the idea was that the rear stairs were invaluable in places like the US where one end of the leg would be JFK or Chicago and the other Topeka Kansas or Jackson Miss which were pretty rudimentary back then and built for Convair 340s and the like.

Re the TRident vs 727 a much discussed story and no doubt the 72 was a much better aircraft but I think once the Trident had actually got of the ground and up in the flight levels it could show its three dinky little Speys to pretty much any other airliner . I remember the captain pointing out how we easily passed a Vc10 from Rome to London (BEA -BOAC rivalry on that route ) and overtaking various DC9 s LHR to ARN back in the 70s . I rather liked the Trident to fly on but of the options in that era and later the MD80s were the best (so long as you sat at the front)

[Asturias56]

Yes - NW 727's around the N W states often ran into places without any modern gates

[WHBM]

My last rear airstairs were on an Alitalia MD-80, 2012, Catania to Milan. Last Douglas ever as well. Bit of schedule engineering needed to get it (don't tell Mrs W !). Surprisingly, alongside at Catania was a Bulgarian charter MD-80 as well,

While I'm at it, in 1993 went BA, Birmingham to Edinburgh. Last ever weeks of the BA One-Eleven, which I had learned of. Condition inside the cabin absolutely immaculate, must have used up all the spares on anything worn, all was clean and immaculate.

Last British-built aircraft just before lockdown, BAe RJ of Jota, standing in for BA on Dublin to London City.

Still get comments at London City, principally from Americans, about boarding without jetways. Whatever is it that this is felt to be something from the biplane era. It works fine. .

[Asturias56]

But its not what the customers expect or want - its ridiculous that you have to get out on the tarmac at Aberdeen say where the weather can be "Challenging"

I also suspect you see a lot more (minor) accidents due to the use of stairs

[renfrew]

I had a ride on an Allegheny Martin 202 back in 1965 from Newark to Philadelphia.
How things have changed.The check-in desk told me just to go to the gate.
I was there with a few others when the plane arrived,and dropped the rear stairs with the engines running.
An agent wandered up,pulled our coupons and pointed us towards the plane.

I was hoping to get a TWA Constellation back but had to settle for a United Viscount.

[Liffy 1M]

I recall that Lufthansa's 737-100s had an integral rear airstair as well, but this wasn't widely adopted. Photo here: D-ABEO