War on woke

[Mogwi]

I see that the Defence Secretary has declared that;

“Time and resources are being squandered to promote a political agenda which is pitting individuals against each other, when what we need is a common set of values which delivers the military we need to defend us and our allies. This extremist culture has infiltrated public life over years and it is time for a proper shake-up, designed to refocus the military on its core mission - being a lethal fighting force”.

I normally have little time for Grant Schapps but I believe that he has hit the nail on the head here. Bravo!

Touchy-feely is fine in peacetime but cockle use against the Russian Bear.

Mog

[Timelord]

I agree, and the new CAS seems to be making the right noises about the job being “flying and fighting”. An assertion that until quite recently incurred disciplinary action.

[gums]

Salute!

Yeppers, Mog. I just wish we colonists could get an enlightened Secretary of Defense and for all the services.

Gums sends...

[bugged on the right]

Advertising on television seems to suggest that servicemen and women jolly around the world handing out sacks of rice, rescuing children from floods and being nice. They must get a big shock when they discover that their job is to intimidate their governments enemies and kill them. I think out savaging the savages and it's a very good leader who can turn that on or off.

[ShyTorque]

Hoorah!

[Yellow Sun]

Here is Sir Humphrey’s (https://thinpinstripedline.********.com/2024/02/standing-up-for-d.html) take on it, although he might have some difficulty convincing the inhabitants of The Wavell Room (https://wavellroom.com/2024/02/07/what-to-expect-if-you-are-captured-by-russian-forces/).

YS

[Big Pistons Forever]

Interesting that probably the most anti-woke military in the world, the Russian army is also inept and incompetent. …..

Personally I am angry the ranting of of old guys who are furious that the military doesn’t represent society exactly like they remember the 1950’s is distracting everyone from the real issue, the lack of government will to adequately resource the military and the expectations that they must do more and more with less and less. This dynamic is why most Western militaries have senior leaders that are bean counter yes men, not war fighters.

[TheOxdordshireMiddy]

While I hesitate to disagree or even question the esteemed Mog, I’m a little hesitant before I would totally agree with Mr Schapps.

If we're really honest the word ‘woke’ has been appropriated a wide spectrum of people on both sides, to mean very different things and achieve a very diverse set of agendas. I think it’s fair to say that the party that Mr Schapps represents has in fact used the word ‘woke’ on a number of occasions to do precisely what he’s claiming to want to prevent, namely that of pitting individuals against each other.

If the word woke is used to mean bring people together, creating a fair and equitable society to create a stronger team with values worth fighting for, then I’m all for woke. If it’s used to describe a set of activities that entirely focus on a political agenda and ignore the core mission and goal of the organisation, then I’m against it.

Rather than get into what would frankly be a rather tedious argument about the meaning of the word woke, can we instead focus on specific examples and argue the merit of each those. What are the individual examples of ‘woke’ behaviour and let’s discuss and take each of them on their merit? My assumption is that as in other areas of life, we’d find some things we’d all agree we should stop, but then others that perhaps aren’t as clear cut as we might imagine or are even quite positive.

Sadly my military days are long behind me. However, in my work today in the civilian world I am responsible for building teams that are expected to successfully operate at the highest level and under high pressure every day. I have found that diversity and inclusion along with an equitable, empathetic and fair approach to my team has created a stronger, more successful team that is designed to beat anyone we meet. Please do not make the mistake of immediately assuming that woke means weak. In my experience it can actually means stronger, more resilient and better able to deal with shocks. I suspect I would be accused of being woke by many for having these views. Frankly though I don’t care because if being woke gives me that competitive edge, I'm the one who will have the last laugh as my team beats everyone else on the 'field of battle'.

[ORAC]

The issues with the forces (inept recruitment with multi-year delays, dysfunctional flying training, bad housing, etc etc) are nothing to do with “woke”.

It’s just an election diversionary tactic to deflect attention away from where the true blame lies.

[Timelord]

Interesting that probably the most anti-woke military in the world, the Russian army is also inept and incompetent. …..
.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

But surely we can agree that lowering vetting standards to encourage more BAME entrants to officer training and Intelligence Corps is a bad idea. That proposal is what prompted Shapps’ intervention.

[langleybaston]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

But surely we can agree that lowering vetting standards to encourage more BAME entrants to officer training and Intelligence Corps is a bad idea. That proposal is what prompted Shapp’s intervention.

I do so agree.
For a war-preventing/fighting organisation, standards must be absolute. I think/hope that the Rocks, the Paras, the RM and SAS [in no particular order] do apply an absolute standard, hence, for example, no women in some of the above, simply because of physique.
If I want a marathon runner I want an Ethiopian or Kenyan. If I want an Olympic swimmer, I divert a Jamaican to trying 100 metres.

[Timelord]

Hmm. “Absolute standards”- yes. “For example no women……” .no

[rudestuff]

Absolute standard should mean just that. No extra 3 minutes for being female, over 40 or just a fat WO2...

[langleybaston]

Hmm. “Absolute standards”- yes. “For example no women……” .no

You may have misunderstood, or maybe not. I was trying to say that very very few women can pass the physical requirements. Women are different from men. My only detailed knowledge is the case of my granddaughter who is an extremely fit athlete ......... struggled to pass one of the RAF regiment minimum standards, changed her gym routine, tried tried and tried again. And now is a Rock, one of not many.
Some aspects of the human condition should be non-negotiable for particular jobs/professions.

As a lighter note, weather forecasters need a very thick skin.

[TURIN]

Touchy-feely is fine in peacetime but cockle use against the Russian Bear.

Mog
Was that a typo or is there something about shellfish and Russians I don't know about?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

But surely we can agree that lowering vetting standards to encourage more BAME entrants to officer training and Intelligence Corps is a bad idea. That proposal is what prompted Shapps’ intervention.

I would suggest that you are also guilty of "Post hoc ergo propter hoc". You have made the explicit connection between different standards being applied automatically means a lesser standard is being applied. You have to start with the question of what is the standard and why were the various criteria chosen. My personal experience in the military was a lot of the standards were there because they had always been there or a product of the attitude that new entrants "had to do them because I did". Forget the human rights component of going after BAME applicants, the reality is that the number of young white males in all Western Societies is dropping rapidly. The current Military population is underrepresented by individuals who are BAME. So does that mean that if you are BAME you are probably not good enough for military service or the military has not made an effort to draw from the entire population ? Recruiting from the entire population is quickly becoming non optional, especially if you want to grow the military in light of an increasingly perilous world security situation.

I am totally against quota's but I am 100% in favour of inclusive recruiting and that means making sure the recruiting and vetting standards reflect legitimate requirements not just legacy practices. This also means that increased risks may have to be taken. One of my officers on my last ship was a very petit female. She kept on failing the PT test and the system was working to release her. I pushed back strongly because she was an excellent ships officer, one of the best Junior officers I have ever commanded. I was challenged with the comment well supposed the bridge is hit and on fire with everyone else killed could she drag your unconscious body out ? I said I honestly don't think so but I am OK with that based on all the other strengths that she brings to the table and therefore I am comfortable with the risk. Like it or not I think that commanders will have to get used to balancing the risk v reward if they want effective numbers.

I saw a picture of one of the Ukrainian army computer geeks. He was very pudgy and had a lot of tattoo's and sure didn't fit the military ideal for body type, but he brought a skill set that created kinetic effects that you are not going to get any other way. I am pretty sure he wasn't going to get sent home because he couldn't do 15 push ups.

Finally with respect to the Anti Woke Russian Army. Yes they are undoubtedly "Anti Woke" but that is expressed in a master race mindset. That is one reason why they have no problem with the large scale slaughter of the lesser humans from prisons and the far reaches of the Russia. This is the dark side of the calls against a woke conspiracy diminishing the armed forces.

Finally my comments on this post are not meant to imply intolerance by everyone with reservations on the current policy changes , but there is no doubt in my mind there is a racist, bigoted, misogynist subset of the "anti- woke" brigade. This has the potential to damage the institutions in a very unfortunate way.

[mopardave]

I'm not a fan of Grant Shapps but he may well be confronting something that Ben Wallace chose to ignore........despite him having been in the army. Seems to me this nonsense really gained traction on Wallace's watch.

[Sue Vêtements]

apply an absolute standard, hence, for example, no women in some of the above, simply because of physique

Except you could also look at it this way: Why not have the standard be that you must be able to lift a jeep over your head or single handedly pull it out of axle deep mud? The answer is obviously because nobody would pass, so they make standards that the people they want or think they should accept can pass. In effect the tail is wagging the dog

If the response is that "well this equipment weighs this much" or "that equipment is that particular dimension" then it's only because they're designed that way to meet the existing standards

Making different standards for women is no more a compromise than making standards for men that are designed to be achieved

[iRaven]

Diverse teams can be just as ineffective as non-diverse teams if you only think appearance, culture and background. The strength comes from the diverse skills within that team, that is why meritocracy wins hands down every time. Until we stop following the false mantra that appearance matters over ability, then it will continue to fail.

This team had just as good an outcome regardless of their appearance. It was their diversity of skill that saved the day.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x1024/img_8367_4f7b50ce618b899925d0fc1bb3b0820b3f995f26.jpeg

https://x.com/iLibertyBelle/status/1674388513175875586?s=20

How well do you think this race would go if we picked on diverse appearance rather than their 100m run times?
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x389/img_8366_870fb440ffa95967503747e45009bc2eac159726.jpeg

Until we understand where the strength of diversity really lay, then only then will the benefit be realised. We also need to stop being racist and sexist when we consider diversity and inclusion - you can’t cure discrimination by discriminating!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/610x540/img_8368_75add7c2c47cdf6a2560607912a9657e67f4c8b5.jpeg

[Big Pistons Forever]

Diverse teams can be just as ineffective as non-diverse teams if you only think appearance, culture and background. The strength comes from the diverse skills within that team, that is why meritocracy wins hands down every time. Until we stop following the false mantra that appearance matters over ability, then it will continue to fail.

This team had just as good an outcome regardless of their appearance. It was their diversity of skill that saved the day.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x1024/img_8367_4f7b50ce618b899925d0fc1bb3b0820b3f995f26.jpeg

https://x.com/iLibertyBelle/status/1674388513175875586?s=20



So the only reason that everyone lived is because 2 old white guys were flying ? So the clear take away from that meme is if a 50 year old white women and a 50 year Black man were the pilots on that flight everyone would have died. Really that is the best argument you can come up with ?

[iRaven]

You missed the point - it doesn’t matter what they look like, it’s what they can do as a team that counts… :ugh:

If you select them for what they look like, the chances are they will fail.

[NutLoose]

I recently saw the army’s latest advert with the Muslim praying on exercise, I have added it below.

https://youtu.be/OQ4OoPNY_YM?feature=shared

my question is it might be acceptable on an exercise and I wouldn’t prevent anyone following their faith, but I do wonder how that will fit in with actual combat situations, flying an aircraft or fighter etc..

[Big Pistons Forever]

If you select them for what they look like, the chances are they will fail.

So how is selecting them because they are old white man that look alike ensuring they won't fail ?

Oh right sorry I forgot only white men make good pilots :rolleyes:

[SASless]

I do wonder how that will fit in with actual combat situations, flying an aircraft or fighter etc..

When one experiences combat there are times most everyone says a prayer or such....even as a US Navy Chaplain did when he was heard to say "Praise the Lord....and pass the ammunition!".

I suggest if one wishes to pray....time, place, and what is happening is not a bar to doing so.

Some prayers are very short due to necessity but are no less sincere for their brevity or volume.

[gums]

Holy Bat Sierra, Batman.

How did we get to this train of discussion?

Out.
Gums sends...

[India Four Two]

Here is Sir Humphrey’s (https://thinpinstripedline.********.com/2024/02/standing-up-for-d.html) take on it, although he might have some difficulty convincing the inhabitants of The Wavell Room (https://wavellroom.com/2024/02/07/what-to-expect-if-you-are-captured-by-russian-forces/).

http://tinyurl.com/53c7xc2e

[Easy Street]

I've got no time for either of the extremes in this debate. One of them routinely gets a hard time: it's easy to criticise reactionary old duffers, and the likes of Sir Humphrey will gladly knock out a blog post or social media post doing just that. D&I credentials displayed, tick, very good, applause gathered.

What's not so easy is to criticise the other extreme; attempts often draw intense and hostile counter-fire. But there's good reason for many government departments having withdrawn from the Stonewall Diversity Champions scheme, and the reason is starting to get the airing it deserves in the courts (through Employment Tribunal judgements in favour of Forstater, Meade, and Phoenix among others), and very strikingly last Friday in a House of Lords debate on "conversion practices". That reason is the relentless foisting of gender identity beliefs on people who quite reasonably view biological sex as being the more significant and important discriminator between men and women and are uncomfortable with erosion of boundaries. This proceeds in ways that are overt (eg conversion of ladies' toilets in Main Building to gender-neutral - never the mens', is it? - and "strong encouragement" to put personal pronouns in email signatures) and covert (adoption of Stonewall-approved language in all sorts of hidden policies from HR to, incredibly, procurement). All of the Diversity Champions scheme guidance driving this reflects the law as Stonewall would like it to be, not the Equality Act 2010 as it is, with its carve-outs to exclude even those with gender reassignment certificates from opposite-sex spaces.

Not before time, the tide is turning, and more are prepared to go up against the "no debate" crowd and assert the primacy of biological sex over gender identity, self-declared or otherwise. If Shapps's intervention ends up with MOD breaking its ties to Stonewall then it will have done good, so more power to his elbow, I say.

If you don't believe any of this is a problem, then read this (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11564363/I-helped-Stonewall-today-plead-business-public-body-reconsider.html) from Simon Fanshawe, a founder of Stonewall from the gay rights era, who disagreed with its stance on gender identity to the point he left the organisation. Despite being heavily criticised by trans rights activists, he's just been appointed Rector of Edinburgh University, which shows at least one rare corner of academia is escaping Stonewall's grip.

[As a depressingly funny illustration of the knots gender identity is capable of tying organisations up in, how easy and misleadingly consequence-free it is for most men to support it, and the division it's capable of sowing, look no further than the Parkrun palaver which has unfolded in the last few days:

Female runners: "It's unfair that males can declare themselves women and claim all the womens' record times"
Parkrun: "It's only a fun run. Chill."
Male runners: disinterested silence
Female runners: "So why do you post record times then?"
Parkrun: (consults lawyers) "Errr, we won't publish results and records any more."
Male runners: "WTF is this? This is not 'only a fun run'. WTF cares if there are some males running as women? Give us our data back."
Parkrun: silence

Funny: until you consider that militaries rely upon bonding people together. And making the majority unhappy to satisfy a vocal minority of activists is unwise if bonding, and in context, retention is important to you.]

[iRaven]

So how is selecting them because they are old white man that look alike ensuring they won't fail ?

Oh right sorry I forgot only white men make good pilots :rolleyes:

You have missed the point again, and need to see past their appearance. They make a good team despite their appearance - they make a good team because of their diversity of experience and a high level of skill. What they look like has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome…

[melmothtw]

Interesting that probably the most anti-woke military in the world, the Russian army is also inept and incompetent. …...

Yes, it's almost as if 'woke' is just a huge giant distraction from actual issues at hand.

[GeeRam]

Personally I am angry the ranting of of old guys who are furious that the military doesn’t represent society exactly like they remember the 1950’s is distracting everyone from the real issue, the lack of government will to adequately resource the military and the expectations that they must do more and more with less and less. This dynamic is why most Western militaries have senior leaders that are bean counter yes men, not war fighters.

The trouble is, that philosophy is prevalent everywhere, not just in the military, so trying to remove it from just the military is a hopeless task as much as everyone with an ounce of common sense would like it to be. Its endemic throughout every facet of civilian life.

[DuncanDoenitz]

my question is it might be acceptable on an exercise and I wouldn’t prevent anyone following their faith, but I do wonder how that will fit in with actual combat situations, flying an aircraft or fighter etc..
Which is exactly why no predominently Muslim military/paramilitary unit has ever achieved a successful operation. Oh, wait a minute .......

And predominently Christian/Jewish militaries can't manage to integrate operational efficiency with religious devotions? As far as I'm aware, all the major religions require periods of prayer, meditation, fasting or supplication, but the sanctity of the subject's life, and of their family, friends and colleagues, always overrides the need and timing for such rituals.

[Mogwi]

I recently saw the army’s latest advert with the Muslim praying on exercise, I have added it below.

https://youtu.be/OQ4OoPNY_YM?feature=shared

my question is it might be acceptable on an exercise and I wouldn’t prevent anyone following their faith, but I do wonder how that will fit in with actual combat situations, flying an aircraft or fighter etc..

Train as you mean to fight?

Mog

[Asturias56]

IIRC the Koran contains exceptions for various activities laid down (such as fasting in Ramadhan) - and they include when you're fighting, traveling etc etc

[MPN11]

Meanwhile, on a Qatar airliner ... flexibility is also allowed.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1254x752/p1000989_19fe4c7962e8ab400642d35d84886e470edd2847.jpg

[charliegolf]

Yes, it's almost as if 'woke' is just a huge giant distraction from actual issues at hand.

Compared to the cost of a new Hawk T2 (if you can have such a thing) or an extra, 'ye olde Typhoon', finding a few quid to demonstrate that all people are welcome is neither here nor there. It's pissing around at the edges. But it's affordable. There are bigger fish...

CG

[Tigger_Too]

Open letter against Army’s inclusivity policyDear Secretary of State,
As retired senior officers of the Crown with experience of senior command, we feel compelled to write to you with a sense of sadness, incredulity and anger having viewed astonishing evidence of the depth and pervasiveness of the racist and intolerant "Diversity, Equality and Inclusivity" ideology being pushed within HM Armed Forces.

We see these facts, as so they are, as the perpetration of monumental self-harming and, as such, a real and present threat to national security that will give aid and comfort to the King's enemies. The sheer scale of what is reported is scarcely believable, and it cannot be ameliorated by small adjustments. It requires root and branch removal and we call upon you to order this, in pursuit of your primary duties to provide for the sure defence of our islands and citizens.

Nothing could be better calculated to destroy the esprit de corps of our armed forces than this poisonous farrago of nonsense or to deter from serving the Crown precisely the type of people most motivated and apt to our high calling. Ours is a tolerant country and this obsessive racialising of everything is both disgusting and reprehensible.

As you spelled out in your Lancaster House speech, correctly in our view, we live in 'pre-war' times; and Britain faces an ominous and darkening international scene, with Armed Forces that are underequipped, undermanned and underfunded, as we were back in the 1930’s.

Among the lunacy of pushing woke ideas around the use of "gender neutral" pronouns, or allowing male soldiers to wear make-up or flowing locks on parades to accentuate their feminine side, we pick out the wickedness of a policy to dilute security vetting in order to boost representation of ethnic minorities. With Islamism and other extremism rampant, this is nothing short of dangerous madness.

The cry for "diversity" has been utterly misunderstood. Within a military culture, what is to be sought above everything else is the delivery of "fighting power" in order to defeat the King's enemies, together with the greatest uniformity of excellence and diversity of opinion. Nothing else matters. The Memorial Gates on Constitution Hill are an object lesson of the unforced unity in all their diversity of Imperial and Commonwealth Armies in defence of freedom.

To remove Christianity from Acts of Remembrance is also a particular insult to our ancestors who fought and died to lead the world in ending slavery and twice in the last century to save our islands from conquest by extreme regimes. No one should need to be reminded that this is a welcoming, inclusive and basically Christian country. Our civic culture on 11th November is sacred, Christian, tolerant and inclusive on our terms.

The Russians, Iranians and Chinese will be observing our descent into self-hatred and obsessing over diversity and inclusion with glee. These intolerable policies are forcing the British Armed Forces into moral disarmament and it cannot stand.

We call on you as Secretary of State for Defence immediately to cleanse our military culture of these poisonous ideas and to order a complete reset back to our core values of patriotism and unity that for generations made our armed forces the envy of the world. To preserve and deepen military culture, discipline and efficiency, the Ministry of Defence should be exempted from the Public Sector Equality Duty as specified in the Equality Act 2010.

We are not civil servants but fighting forces.

Yours,

Major General Julian Thompson CB OBE

Lieutenant General Sir Henry Beverly KCB OBE

Brigadier David Chaundler OBE

Major General Tim Cross CBE

Lieutenant General Sir James Dutton KCB CBE

Major General Malcolm Hunt OBE

Colonel Richard Kemp CBE

Rear Admiral Roger Lane-Nott CB

Lieutenant General Sir Hew Pike KCB DSO MBE

Lieutenant General Jonathon Riley DSO MC

Colonel Ewen Southby-Tailyour OBE

Major General Nick Vaux CB DSO

[Tartiflette Fan]

The issues with the forces (inept recruitment with multi-year delays, dysfunctional flying training, bad housing, etc etc) are nothing to do with “woke”.
.

Unless you are intimately aware of everything going on from procurement to training, I think you are stretching too far. Having read about Boeing's DEI procedures, I can believe that box-ticking to achieve fatuous goals is prevalent in all areas of the military. Some time within the last week some news outlet published just how many committees/networks dealing with racism/sexism/how to address people etc etc there were in the military, and it was unbelievable. Having said that I have to add that the number of recent examples of criminal behaviour in those categories being publicised are worrying. Those are however real crimes and not micro-aggressions.

I recall once being in a US military establishment and usinga pen that said "Made by Blackfoot Indians ". When I asked about this, I was informed that disadvantaged groups are given prioriity in procurement procedures which obviously aligns with what I wrote about Boeing above, as I imagine they were likely reacting to advice from the DoD about inclusive employers being preferred.

[snapper41]

What a pity that there are no RAF signatories to the letter. Why, I wonder?

[langleybaston]

What a pity that there are no RAF signatories to the letter. Why, I wonder?

Perhaps none were asked because it was believed they would be opposed?

[bugged on the right]

Wigston probably got rid of them snapper. Well the tag team will be all over this letter because these are old soldiers and don't know about modern soldiering. As long as they can do the job eh? I read on one of the forums here that in peace times the armed forces are headed by people who are primarily administrators. In wartime these are booted out and replaced by warriors who lead. I hope to God we have some of those waiting in the wings.

[Timelord]

Just re reading that letter the phrase that jumps out to me is; “…..our descent into self hatred…..”. Why would a young person of any ethnic background or sexual orientation decide to fight for the UK when he or she has been bombarded with messages from all kinds of media that we are a wicked,racist, bigoted, misogynistic , xxxphobic country with a history of slave trading and colonialism to be ashamed of. What we need is some positive messaging of British history and values.

[vascodegama]

Except you could also look at it this way: Why not have the standard be that you must be able to lift a jeep over your head or single handedly pull it out of axle deep mud? The answer is obviously because nobody would pass, so they make standards that the people they want or think they should accept can pass. In effect the tail is wagging the dog

If the response is that "well this equipment weighs this much" or "that equipment is that particular dimension" then it's only because they're designed that way to meet the existing standards

Making different standards for women is no more a compromise than making standards for men that are designed to be achieved

To have a role related fitness test (assuming it is a valid test) that is gender fair is indirect discrimination (against men) and illegal. A few police forces have fallen foul of that one.

[langleybaston]

Except you could also look at it this way: Why not have the standard be that you must be able to lift a jeep over your head or single handedly pull it out of axle deep mud? The answer is obviously because nobody would pass, so they make standards that the people they want or think they should accept can pass. In effect the tail is wagging the dog

If the response is that "well this equipment weighs this much" or "that equipment is that particular dimension" then it's only because they're designed that way to meet the existing standards

Making different standards for women is no more a compromise than making standards for men that are designed to be achieved

As a nearly extreme example, the Falklands Yomps were, I read, gut-wrenchingly difficult. An absolute physical and mental [guts] standard is necessary for fighting troops, and if any person can pass they pass. Other roles need different entry standards, but no exceptions made.

[Less Hair]

In 20 years we will look at all this wokeism with a smile like at McCarthyism.

[trim it out]

I recently saw the army’s latest advert with the Muslim praying on exercise, I have added it below.

https://youtu.be/OQ4OoPNY_YM?feature=shared

my question is it might be acceptable on an exercise and I wouldn’t prevent anyone following their faith, but I do wonder how that will fit in with actual combat situations, flying an aircraft or fighter etc..
None if the Muslims I was alongside in combat stopped to pray as per the advert. It's artistic license.

The only time I'd say Faith got in the way of fighting was during Ramadan when fatigue hit hard.

[TURIN]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x779/fb_img_1601297093196_af3ce19432e1cbfc30f8d6bb9c1fd508b26d5a5 7.jpg

[cynicalint]

Daily Telegraph joins in....I can see where the RAF Sergeant is coming from, but I think her concerns may be misplaced...She seems to think that the rules against sexual abuse will be lifted, but to me, that is certainly not the case.

Women in the Armed Forces have been made to feel “unsafe” in the wake of the Defence Secretary’s comments (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/12/armed-forces-spending-diversity-staff-doubles-grant-shapps/) over the diversity row engulfing the military.

Grant Shapps warned a “woke” and “extremist culture” had infiltrated the British Army after it was revealed the military was considering ways to relax checks (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/10/army-challenge-overseas-recruits-security-checks/) to promote ethnic diversity among officers.
The Telegraph understands Mr Shapps spoke with Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, the Chief of the Defence Staff, on Monday to discuss how to conduct a review of ethnicity, diversity and inclusivity policies within the Ministry of Defence. (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/11/ministry-of-defence-93-diversity-networks-gender-lgbtq/) However, serving female personnel and military charities have said Mr Shapps’s response was “dangerous”, while others said they felt they would have little choice but to leave the Armed Forces if such a hard approach was adopted.

One Sergeant serving with the RAF told The Telegraph: “I think it’s really dangerous that he thinks it OK to make such flippant remarks without quantifying them.

“The military had only just started to make progress in moving away from being an old boys club and it feels that as soon as that has happened people from that generation are now afraid to embrace the changes.”
She added: “I fear if his comments are left unchallenged, the retaliation from people within the ranks to prove and regain the masculine bravado that is associated with being a soldier will be devastating to the progress we have made in making the military safer and actually a place where women belong.

“All the good work that was done to challenge unacceptable behaviours will be not only lost, but there will be a spike in the culture we have worked so hard to eradicate.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/13/women-armed-forces-feel-unsafe-grant-shapps/

[Big Pistons Forever]

Open letter against Army’s inclusivity policyDear Secretary of State,
As retired senior officers of the Crown with experience of senior command, we feel compelled to write to you with a sense of sadness, incredulity and anger having viewed astonishing evidence of the depth and pervasiveness of the racist and intolerant "Diversity, Equality and Inclusivity" ideology being pushed within HM Armed Forces.

We see these facts, as so they are, as the perpetration of monumental self-harming and, as such, a real and present threat to national security that will give aid and comfort to the King's enemies. The sheer scale of what is reported is scarcely believable, and it cannot be ameliorated by small adjustments. It requires root and branch removal and we call upon you to order this, in pursuit of your primary duties to provide for the sure defence of our islands and citizens.

Nothing could be better calculated to destroy the esprit de corps of our armed forces than this poisonous farrago of nonsense or to deter from serving the Crown precisely the type of people most motivated and apt to our high calling. Ours is a tolerant country and this obsessive racialising of everything is both disgusting and reprehensible.

As you spelled out in your Lancaster House speech, correctly in our view, we live in 'pre-war' times; and Britain faces an ominous and darkening international scene, with Armed Forces that are underequipped, undermanned and underfunded, as we were back in the 1930’s.

Among the lunacy of pushing woke ideas around the use of "gender neutral" pronouns, or allowing male soldiers to wear make-up or flowing locks on parades to accentuate their feminine side, we pick out the wickedness of a policy to dilute security vetting in order to boost representation of ethnic minorities. With Islamism and other extremism rampant, this is nothing short of dangerous madness.

The cry for "diversity" has been utterly misunderstood. Within a military culture, what is to be sought above everything else is the delivery of "fighting power" in order to defeat the King's enemies, together with the greatest uniformity of excellence and diversity of opinion. Nothing else matters. The Memorial Gates on Constitution Hill are an object lesson of the unforced unity in all their diversity of Imperial and Commonwealth Armies in defence of freedom.

To remove Christianity from Acts of Remembrance is also a particular insult to our ancestors who fought and died to lead the world in ending slavery and twice in the last century to save our islands from conquest by extreme regimes. No one should need to be reminded that this is a welcoming, inclusive and basically Christian country. Our civic culture on 11th November is sacred, Christian, tolerant and inclusive on our terms.

The Russians, Iranians and Chinese will be observing our descent into self-hatred and obsessing over diversity and inclusion with glee. These intolerable policies are forcing the British Armed Forces into moral disarmament and it cannot stand.

We call on you as Secretary of State for Defence immediately to cleanse our military culture of these poisonous ideas and to order a complete reset back to our core values of patriotism and unity that for generations made our armed forces the envy of the world. To preserve and deepen military culture, discipline and efficiency, the Ministry of Defence should be exempted from the Public Sector Equality Duty as specified in the Equality Act 2010.

We are not civil servants but fighting forces.

Yours,

Major General Julian Thompson CB OBE

Lieutenant General Sir Henry Beverly KCB OBE

Brigadier David Chaundler OBE

Major General Tim Cross CBE

Lieutenant General Sir James Dutton KCB CBE

Major General Malcolm Hunt OBE

Colonel Richard Kemp CBE

Rear Admiral Roger Lane-Nott CB

Lieutenant General Sir Hew Pike KCB DSO MBE

Lieutenant General Jonathon Riley DSO MC

Colonel Ewen Southby-Tailyour OBE

Major General Nick Vaux CB DSO

I suggest that all the signatories of the above letter give a copy to random 20 year olds ask them what they think. I don’t think they are going to like the answer. All of these people had their time in the service, I think they need to let go. In any case here is a thought experiment. Would they want their children to experience what they experienced when they joined the military. Not what it is now but what it was when they were 18,19 year old recruits, because that is essentially what they are asking for.

[Asturias56]

"No one should need to be reminded that this is a ............ basically Christian country."

Shows just how out of touch these guys are....................

National census figures from 2021 indicate 46.2 percent of the population in England and Wales are Christian. Of the remaining population, 6.5 percent identify as Muslim; 1.7 percent as Hindu; 0.9 percent as Sikh; 0.5 percent as Jewish; and 0.5 as Buddhist. 37.2 % are No Religion - and that's up 12% in 10 years

And don't bother to look at how many "Christians" are practising.

[jolihokistix]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x1240/img_2236_9dc49f88b5b5f435bb5e455ce9ce4bed029a987e.jpeg

[snapper41]

"No one should need to be reminded that this is a ............ basically Christian country."

Shows just how out of touch these guys are....................

National census figures from 2021 indicate 46.2 percent of the population in England and Wales are Christian. Of the remaining population, 6.5 percent identify as Muslim; 1.7 percent as Hindu; 0.9 percent as Sikh; 0.5 percent as Jewish; and 0.5 as Buddhist. 37.2 % are No Religion - and that's up 12% in 10 years

And don't bother to look at how many "Christians" are practising.

So Christianity is still the largest group then. Those ‘out of touch guys’ were right after all…

[jolihokistix]

When I were a lad, it was said that Norwich boasted 52 churches, one for every week of the year, oh, and 365 pubs.
Not sure how Norwich might fare today, though!

[langleybaston]

So Christianity is still the largest group then. Those ‘out of touch guys’ were right after all…

Here goes!
I am a practising Christian.
I was RAF Churchwarden at JHQ and at times in UK since.
Also a bell ringer.
Surely the Christian ethos still motivates and guides the native population of this land?
Being "good" is a bedrock, it is not confined to Christianity but it permeates life as we live it.
And the Archbish of Canterbury is not on my Christmas card list.
Please respect.

[bugged on the right]

I joined the armed forces as an 18 year old, BPF, can't remember any of it being remotely traumatic. I knew that after the initial heavy duty indoctrination had finished things would dramatically change. They did and things just went better. I would far prefer my children to join the outfit I joined and not today's aimless self loathing mess. As for asking 20 year olds their opinion, you must be joking. They want to spend their days on social media and need tick tock advice for everything including what sex they will be today. I didn't think it would be long before someone pointed out that these senior officers were too old but I would far prefer to be defended by one of them rather than some politically appointed, politically correct sycophant metrosexual REMF.

[Jacko3]

But it is. You are confusing the equality offered in opportunity, and the enforced equality being mandated in outcome regardless of anything else.


I would suggest that you are also guilty of "Post hoc ergo propter hoc". You have made the explicit connection between different standards being applied automatically means a lesser standard is being applied. You have to start with the question of what is the standard and why were the various criteria chosen. My personal experience in the military was a lot of the standards were there because they had always been there or a product of the attitude that new entrants "had to do them because I did". Forget the human rights component of going after BAME applicants, the reality is that the number of young white males in all Western Societies is dropping rapidly. The current Military population is underrepresented by individuals who are BAME. So does that mean that if you are BAME you are probably not good enough for military service or the military has not made an effort to draw from the entire population ? Recruiting from the entire population is quickly becoming non optional, especially if you want to grow the military in light of an increasingly perilous world security situation.

I am totally against quota's but I am 100% in favour of inclusive recruiting and that means making sure the recruiting and vetting standards reflect legitimate requirements not just legacy practices. This also means that increased risks may have to be taken. One of my officers on my last ship was a very petit female. She kept on failing the PT test and the system was working to release her. I pushed back strongly because she was an excellent ships officer, one of the best Junior officers I have ever commanded. I was challenged with the comment well supposed the bridge is hit and on fire with everyone else killed could she drag your unconscious body out ? I said I honestly don't think so but I am OK with that based on all the other strengths that she brings to the table and therefore I am comfortable with the risk. Like it or not I think that commanders will have to get used to balancing the risk v reward if they want effective numbers.

I saw a picture of one of the Ukrainian army computer geeks. He was very pudgy and had a lot of tattoo's and sure didn't fit the military ideal for body type, but he brought a skill set that created kinetic effects that you are not going to get any other way. I am pretty sure he wasn't going to get sent home because he couldn't do 15 push ups.

Finally with respect to the Anti Woke Russian Army. Yes they are undoubtedly "Anti Woke" but that is expressed in a master race mindset. That is one reason why they have no problem with the large scale slaughter of the lesser humans from prisons and the far reaches of the Russia. This is the dark side of the calls against a woke conspiracy diminishing the armed forces.

Finally my comments on this post are not meant to imply intolerance by everyone with reservations on the current policy changes , but there is no doubt in my mind there is a racist, bigoted, misogynist subset of the "anti- woke" brigade. This has the potential to damage the institutions in a very unfortunate way.

[Haraka]

Anybody else suspicious of the motivation behind the detailed personal details required on application for a 'Veterans' Card?
A possible provisional initial "Call up " Survey comes to mind.
Noting that those most difficult to grab i.e. "Överseas" are excluded (for the present.)
So that's me out!

[ORAC]

https://youtu.be/sxhaunU2AxY?si=2FzefClbZmyBY_Jb

[TURIN]

I joined the armed forces as an 18 year old, BPF, can't remember any of it being remotely traumatic. I knew that after the initial heavy duty indoctrination had finished things would dramatically change. They did and things just went better. I would far prefer my children to join the outfit I joined and not today's aimless self loathing mess. As for asking 20 year olds their opinion, you must be joking. They want to spend their days on social media and need tick tock advice for everything including what sex they will be today. I didn't think it would be long before someone pointed out that these senior officers were too old but I would far prefer to be defended by one of them rather than some politically appointed, politically correct sycophant metrosexual REMF.
And there it is. The hate personified in one post, the very reason why the armed forces (and every other old school tie institution) needs to implement change.
Millions died in the trenches during WW1 because old people thought they knew better. That went well.
If my own 20 year old is anything to go by I'm confident we're in safe hands. If yours are as bad as you say, that's on you. The problems of today are not the fault of this generation.

[bugged on the right]

Your 20 year old may be an anomaly Turin. I doubt the rest of them are able or willing. If you are confident you are in safe hands well good for you. I'm not at all confident in any of the armed forces. The generals are right. And I never said my children are bad. You have invented that, my children are mid 30s and 41. The twenty year olds I refer to are contemporary. As for ww1, you appear to be an expert on everything, how would you resolve that? How would you resolve Ukraine? You may have some answers, would you have the balls?

[snapper41]

Here goes!
I am a practising Christian.
I was RAF Churchwarden at JHQ and at times in UK since.
Also a bell ringer.
Surely the Christian ethos still motivates and guides the native population of this land?
Being "good" is a bedrock, it is not confined to Christianity but it permeates life as we live it.
And the Archbish of Canterbury is not on my Christmas card list.
Please respect.

I do respect - I was referring to the previous poster’s weak grasp of what a ‘majority’ is.

[stevef]

And there it is. The hate personified in one post, the very reason why the armed forces (and every other old school tie institution) needs to implement change.
Millions died in the trenches during WW1 because old people thought they knew better. That went well.

Thread drift, I know, but the 1914 assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand by a student in his early '20s triggered the First World War.

[langleybaston]

And there it is. The hate personified in one post, the very reason why the armed forces (and every other old school tie institution) needs to implement change.
Millions died in the trenches during WW1 because old people thought they knew better. That went well.
If my own 20 year old is anything to go by I'm confident we're in safe hands. If yours are as bad as you say, that's on you. The problems of today are not the fault of this generation.

Surely it is not hate? It is judgemental, yes, a bit OTT, yes, but hate is very different.
As a published military historian I do find your explanation of the causes of the Great War very much at odds with the evidence.

[Rheinstorff]

Advertising on television seems to suggest that servicemen and women jolly around the world handing out sacks of rice, rescuing children from floods and being nice. They must get a big shock when they discover that their job is to intimidate their governments enemies and kill them. I think out savaging the savages and it's a very good leader who can turn that on or off.

No they don't get a shock, in my experience, as they tend to know know exactly what they're joining to do. The adverts are aimed more at the 'gate-keepers'.

[Rheinstorff]

I think if you're going to ask someone to put their life on the line, their opinion matters.

My experience is those 20 year olds to whom you refer (at least those who were RAF Regiment officers and gunners) make exceptionally good fighters and many of them are a much better fit than previous generations for modern warfighting with all its current complexity. They're no less willing to go in harm's way than their predecessors and, from what I've seen, would prefer to be doing that and earning the medals that go with it than lurking on Tik Tok, PPrune, or whatever.

[bugged on the right]

Rheinstorff, what are the gatekeepers? Do you mean parents? Please explain.

[Rheinstorff]

Rheinstorff, what are the gatekeepers? Do you mean parents? Please explain.

It's recruiter language, which I don't pretend to fully understand, but typically it refers to the parents or other people with significant influence over potential recruits' career choices, eg, teachers or lecturers.

[bugged on the right]

There is the difference in a nutshell. When I joined up it was my decision. As I was under aged when I applied, I was obliged to get parental permission but my enlistment was entirely my decision and responsibility. Today the cult of the influencer means that other people are responsible it seems.

[downsizer]

There is the difference in a nutshell. When I joined up it was my decision. As I was under aged when I applied, I was obliged to get parental permission but my enlistment was entirely my decision and responsibility. Today the cult of the influencer means that other people are responsible it seems.

You're kind of proving the value of convincing the gatekeepers that joining the UKAFs is a good idea here though.

Your "gatekeepers" (and mine) agreed that joining was a good choice and therefore gave permission. If they thought the armed forces was a bad option they may not have. Equally if someone is on the fence and choose to seek advice from someone they respect (parent, community leader, religious propaganda pusher, teacher) we want them to encourage people to join up as well. If they all say joining up is a sh1t idea, it isn't going to help people decide what to do is it?

[bugged on the right]

The difference, downsizer is that armed forces recruitment was aimed at individuals, not their parents, friends, families or teachers. Have a look at the ad for the Australian Navy in the 80s. The theme was " you'll be wet you'll be homesick and frightened, but the pride of the fleet will be you. ". It's on the tube. They were booked solid for years.

[downsizer]

I don't think the adverts are aimed at gatekeepers of communities per se, but if there is a benefit then great.

When I took a posting into recruiting one of the first things that I was told on the course is that the adverts that you liked as an 18 year old, aren't going to be the adverts that 18 year olds like today, 25 years later! And its true, they weren't trying to recruit me, I was already 20 odd years deep by that point.

[bugged on the right]

Absolutely not downsizer. Imagine being promised you'll be wet, homesick and frightened today. Bullying, no duty of care. Appealing to toxic masculinity. Challenging, but reassuring that people are valued. Different kind of kids these days.

[Sue Vêtements]

To have a role related fitness test (assuming it is a valid test) that is gender fair is indirect discrimination (against men) and illegal.

I don't really see why. If you look at thngs objectively, standards have always been set at an arbitrary level so that most men can pass them. How is that not discrimination? The fact that the average man can probably lift more weight than the average woman is not a valid reason to rig the game

[Mogwi]

I suggest that all the signatories of the above letter give a copy to random 20 year olds ask them what they think. I don’t think they are going to like the answer. All of these people had their time in the service, I think they need to let go. In any case here is a thought experiment. Would they want their children to experience what they experienced when they joined the military. Not what it is now but what it was when they were 18,19 year old recruits, because that is essentially what they are asking for.

Well, BP, I for one would love my grandchildren to experience what a I did when I joined Dartmouth straight from school in 1966. The camaraderie and esprit de corps was exceptional, we had an aim and elders to help us achieve it and life was hard but very good. (Standfast the odd punishment run down to Sandquay and back!)

And yes, we had a course mate who was of Caribbean extraction but his ethnicity was never even mentioned - he was just Geoff, another makie-learnie pilot, getting on with the business of his chosen profession. The only trouble that we ever had was from the local lads, whose girlfriends were always keen to come to the Summer Ball!

The gentlemen who signed that letter have all had successful careers leading men and women of all ethnicities in some very difficult circumstances and are in a very good position to see what is happening to our services today. What we need now is warriors who can be inspired to achieve great things in dire circumstances. War does not discriminate, nor should we - but we need the very best recruits we can get, not those we need to “fill a quota”.


Mog

[langleybaston]

I don't really see why. If you look at thngs objectively, standards have always been set at an arbitrary level so that most men can pass them. How is that not discrimination? The fact that the average man can probably lift more weight than the average woman is not a valid reason to rig the game

Wrong. My granddaughter Rockape struggled with the massive deadlft block of concrete. Reason for pass/fail test?
Ability to lift/move a body, dead or alive, willing or unwilling. A weight a fair number men (me) could not tackle. Defined task, pass/fail, zero discrimination, zero latitude for error.
exactly what women want, equality.
Simples.

[vascodegama]

I don't really see why. If you look at thngs objectively, standards have always been set at an arbitrary level so that most men can pass them. How is that not discrimination? The fact that the average man can probably lift more weight than the average woman is not a valid reason to rig the game

Ask Hampshire Police! They had a gender fair test for dog handlers and fell foul of exactly that. In essence a male candidate passed the female standard but failed the male one . The tribunal ruled he was a victim of discrimination. Actually I was wrong in my post it is direct discrimination. The important point was that the role orientated test was a legitimate means to an end.

[trim it out]

Well, BP, I for one would love my grandchildren to experience what a I did when I joined Dartmouth straight from school in 1966. The camaraderie and esprit de corps was exceptional

Mog
Speaking personally from my experiences and observations, the offer of camaraderie and espirit de corps is not what it once was, perhaps even as little as 10/15 years ago.
The proliferation of single man rooms. Everyone owning a car, therefore ghost camps at weekends/block leave. Exercises having very little flex built into them for AT/boozing.
I'd say the only chance you have of getting the old experience is if you are posted abroad/on ship or tour these days.

[Sue Vêtements]

It's funny reading the comments from old people regarding the current 20 year olds. It's as if the generation that preceeded the oldies didn't say the same things about them

[langleybaston]

Well, BP, I for one would love my grandchildren to experience what a I did when I joined Dartmouth straight from school in 1966. The camaraderie and esprit de corps was exceptional, we had an aim and elders to help us achieve it and life was hard but very good. (Standfast the odd punishment run down to Sandquay and back!)

And yes, we had a course mate who was of Caribbean extraction but his ethnicity was never even mentioned - he was just Geoff, another makie-learnie pilot, getting on with the business of his chosen profession. The only trouble that we ever had was from the local lads, whose girlfriends were always keen to come to the Summer Ball!

The gentlemen who signed that letter have all had successful careers leading men and women of all ethnicities in some very difficult circumstances and are in a very good position to see what is happening to our services today. What we need now is warriors who can be inspired to achieve great things in dire circumstances. War does not discriminate, nor should we - but we need the very best recruits we can get, not those we need to “fill a quota”.


Mog

And we need to pay the rate [Rate?] for the job: handsomely. Very many military roles are more demanding than driving a train. QED.

[langleybaston]

It's funny reading the comments from old people regarding the current 20 year olds. It's as if the generation that preceeded the oldies didn't say the same things about them

Prove it please. With examples and sources.

[Sue Vêtements]

Prove it please. With examples and sources.

Look I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I think it's pretty well known that every generation says this about the next generation. They even make country songs about it

and seeing as you asked, here are some quotes:

​​​​​The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise,

Young people are high-minded because they have not yet been humbled by life, nor have they experienced the force of circumstances. They think they know everything, and are always quite sure about it.

The beardless youth… does not foresee what is useful, squandering his money

​​​​​​​Our sires’ age was worse than our grandsires’. We, their sons, are more worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt

​​​​​​​Youth were never more sawcie, yea never more savagely saucie . . . the ancient are scorned, the honourable are contemned, the magistrate is not dreaded.

You can find more and the attributions here (https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/)



Having said that, I doubt that this current young generation will be able to insult their replacements anywhere near as well as we and our forefathers did :}​​​​​​​

[langleybaston]

Brilliant. Well done:

[TURIN]

Surely it is not hate? It is judgemental, yes, a bit OTT, yes, but hate is very different.
As a published military historian I do find your explanation of the causes of the Great War very much at odds with the evidence.
Er, at what point did I mention the causes of the great war, I was referring to the so called experienced generals who insisted on throwing young men over the top into a line of machine gun fire.

[rigpiggy]

As our old CDS Rick Hillier said "we are not the public service, our job is to go places and kill people" paraphrase but you get the gist

[TURIN]

Your 20 year old may be an anomaly Turin. I doubt the rest of them are able or willing. If you are confident you are in safe hands well good for you. I'm not at all confident in any of the armed forces. The generals are right. And I never said my children are bad. You have invented that, my children are mid 30s and 41. The twenty year olds I refer to are contemporary. As for ww1, you appear to be an expert on everything, how would you resolve that? How would you resolve Ukraine? You may have some answers, would you have the balls?
So, what you're saying is you have no idea what today's 20 somethings are like. So where do you get your bigoted ideas about them from?
So I'M the expert now am I? What makes you the expert on the youth of today.? How do you leap from a discussion about how we treat people to solving WW3? Talk about strawman.

[langleybaston]

Er, at what point did I mention the causes of the great war, I was referring to the so called experienced generals who insisted on throwing young men over the top into a line of machine gun fire.

How about:
Millions died in the trenches during WW1 because old people thought they knew better.

Additionally, some confused logic: if a soldier is in the trenches he is not over the top

[TURIN]

Good grief it's like bingo at an old people's home in here.

[bugged on the right]

You been on the turps Turin? I said nothing about not knowing what 20 somethings are like. I am very familiar with their attitudes and read daily, articles which confirm my opinions. I reiterate, you seem to be an expert, I asked you what you would have done differently to bring WW1 to a close? Talk some more? Irrelevant now but what about Ukraine? I didn't mention WW3. You may call me bigoted but it is attitudes like yours which have put us where we are and not the old generals.

[langleybaston]

Good grief it's like bingo at an old people's home in here.

I really wouldn't know. We played different games in the Mess.

[TURIN]

You been on the turps Turin? I said nothing about not knowing what 20 somethings are like. I am very familiar with their attitudes and read daily, articles which confirm my opinions. I reiterate, you seem to be an expert, I asked you what you would have done differently to bring WW1 to a close? Talk some more? Irrelevant now but what about Ukraine? I didn't mention WW3. You may call me bigoted but it is attitudes like yours which have put us where we are and not the old generals.
Ah, you read things that agree with your views = the truth. Got it.
No you didn't you asked me how I would settle WW3 (the conflict in Ukraine)
My attitude! Amazing, me? Tell me just how much influence over society I have then ask yourself, who's in charge? Those generals you seem to admire so much are far closer to the establishment than I will ever be, you can tell be the Ks and letters after their names.

[bugged on the right]

They know a hell of a lot more about leadership of their troops and the waging of warfare than me, you or anyone else on this forum. I don't give a toss how close they are to the establishment.

[Professor Plum]

I would far prefer my children to join the outfit I joined and not today's aimless self loathing mess.

Aimless self loathing mess?

‘scuse me?!

Please can you clarify who within the armed
forces you include within this “self loathing mess”?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Well, BP, I for one would love my grandchildren to experience what a I did when I joined Dartmouth straight from school in 1966. The camaraderie and esprit de corps was exceptional, we had an aim and elders to help us achieve it and life was hard but very good. (Standfast the odd punishment run down to Sandquay and back!)

And yes, we had a course mate who was of Caribbean extraction but his ethnicity was never even mentioned - he was just Geoff, another makie-learnie pilot, getting on with the business of his chosen profession. The only trouble that we ever had was from the local lads, whose girlfriends were always keen to come to the Summer Ball!

The gentlemen who signed that letter have all had successful careers leading men and women of all ethnicities in some very difficult circumstances and are in a very good position to see what is happening to our services today. What we need now is warriors who can be inspired to achieve great things in dire circumstances. War does not discriminate, nor should we - but we need the very best recruits we can get, not those we need to “fill a quota”.


Mog

I think the rose tint on your glasses must be pretty strong. I joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 1978. Casual racism and sexism was normal, and physical abuse OK as a leadership tool in non operational settings. It was not too bad as a white male if you kept clear of “those guys”, but any other ethnic group or female and it was game on.

I find it extremely hard to believe that your description of the RN in the 1960’s was the nirvana you described.

The CAF is a lot better now than it was and better for it.

[Ninthace]

I remember in the very early days of diversity education, when homophobia and sexism were rife. Looking back, I shudder at some of the comments made.

[bugged on the right]

Professor Plum, you only need one. How about Wigston? I imagine he did so much damage to armed forces recruiting, it will take years to catch up. Why would any white male join an organisation which he perceived actively discriminated against him? Why would a person of colour join when they perceived they were hired, would be promoted and get good postings because of discrimination? And BPF, are you insinuating that Mogwi is deceiving us? I assume you were in the RN at the time?

[t43562]

Professor Plum, you only need one. How about Wigston? I imagine he did so much damage to armed forces recruiting, it will take years to catch up. Why would any white male join an organisation which he perceived actively discriminated against him? Why would a person of colour join when they perceived they were hired, would be promoted and get good postings because of discrimination? And BPF, are you insinuating that Mogwi is deceiving us? I assume you were in the RN at the time?

I'd guess that there has always been plenty of discrimination in the past based on where you come from, your accent, school, parents etc. To hear that there is a degree of balancing to prevent that getting completely out of hand with some groups shouldn't send anyone into a tailspin. As for everyone else I think they will swallow the hit to their pride and get on with making these rules unnecessary in future.

I'd be interested to know how often the best person gets the job anyhow.

[bugged on the right]

t43562. You are right. We may have been discriminated against because we were from the wrong part of town, or wrong accent, school or whatever, but nobody at the top of the organisation ever told us that. I would hardly call instructing your Group Captain to stop recruiting 'useless white males' a degree of balancing. I call it an out and out racist and sexist insult. The Group Captain is the only decent person in the hierarchy.

[KiloB]

I have a bit of a problem with the Heading of this Thread. The ‘Woke’ are at unrelenting war with the rest of society, rather than the other way round.

[snapper41]

I'd guess that there has always been plenty of discrimination in the past based on where you come from, your accent, school, parents etc.

My dad was a humble butcher, and my mum a humble housewife from the east end of London. I went to a comprehensive school. I left with 6 O Levels. I joined as an airman in the mid-80s and was commissioned 3 years later. I left after 26 years at a reasonably senior rank. No discrimination based on where I came from, my accent, my school or my parents.

[MechEngr]

No - the Woke have always been at war with society, but until recently it was a defensive war where they were hiding or being abused or both and now they feel like they don't want to hide and no longer wish to be abused. It feels new and an attack to many in the majority because they took their ability to deal out the abuse as a right. In America it was considered completely fine in the South for a bunch of Good Ol' White Boys to find a Black man and string him up because "he looked at them wrong and needed to be taught a lesson." Everyone knew and no one objected because "that's just the way things are." Come the American civil rights movement and suddenly the Good Ol' White Boys have to get out the dogs and the firehoses and firebomb churches and assassinate leaders to try to stop people dressed in suits and Sunday best dresses who are asking that a 50 question test with ambiguous answers not be a hurdle to casting a vote.

To put it another way:

Why would any person of colour join an organisation which he perceived actively discriminated against them?
Why would a white male join when they perceived they were hired, would be promoted and get good postings because of discrimination?

I do recall :"Get out of here, we don't want or need your kind" expressed at lunch counters, to use bathrooms, to sit on any seat on a bus, or use a public water fountain to take a drink, or go to a school to get an education, or to be fighter pilots. "Why are they always causing trouble?" also comes to mind.

"Those people" wanted to join to protect their country, to gain access to the things the Constitution promised them. They did it in spite of being actively discriminated against.

If the head start the Good Ol' White Boys have isn't enough to keep what they have I certainly don't feel sorry for them. They made the old rules and should be happy to live under them.

[downsizer]

I certainly witnessed sexist and racist jokes in the early part of my career.....commonplace in many different crew rooms I sat in from the early 90s to probably early 00s...saw many a waaf who wanted to sleep around held to a very different standard (and publically shamed) compared to male sqn members who did the same (many married - who would bring along det wives with them)....those that say it never happened are deluded or looking through rose tinted specs.

By the time I left last year I rarely if ever saw things like that and when I did they werre dealt with.

[stevef]

I see the term 'people of colour' mentioned. I looked it up in respect of the word 'coloured'. According to Devon County Council's Diversity Guide:
Some people use “people of colour”, but this shouldn’t be confused with the term “coloured” which is considered a racial slur and unacceptable.
Oh ... who considers it to be a slur? My ex-wife is a Cape Coloured (diverse ancestral mix (largely) in the South African western Cape area) and described her family as 'coloured'. I've never heard anyone (in the flesh) use the expression: 'people - or person - of colour'. I've been out of the RAF since the '70s - what do mixed race airmen describe themselves as in 2024 or (probably likely) don't bring it up at all. To me, whatever shade people are, they're just people. I've got no time for wokery.

[Big Pistons Forever]

And BPF, are you insinuating that Mogwi is deceiving us? I assume you were in the RN at the time?

No but I did a 3 Month exchange tour with the RN in the earlier 1980's and what he describe is not what I remember. I am pretty sure I have never met Mogwi, so all I can say is I saw and heard behavior that does not match what he described in the RN ships I served in.

[vascodegama]

I certainly witnessed sexist and racist jokes in the early part of my career.....commonplace in many different crew rooms I sat in from the early 90s to probably early 00s...saw many a waaf who wanted to sleep around held to a very different standard (and publically shamed) compared to male sqn members who did the same (many married - who would bring along det wives with them)....those that say it never happened are deluded or looking through rose tinted specs.

By the time I left last year I rarely if ever saw things like that and when I did they werre dealt with.
I don't doubt your experiences but I have also seen behaviour/breaking of the rules that had it been committed by a white male would have been dealt with more severely. In some cases no action was taken at all.

[jolihokistix]

Big vote for young people and multi-culturalism here. For me the Age of Aquarius has turned out to include a reliance on the younger ones to help out in so many ways, including interpreting how to steer through the maze of 'simple to use' internet obstacle courses set up by government, banks, et al.

It's been a struggle for me to see and accept this. The older offspring seems to have learned to live and deal both with the old school and an emerging younger world, whereas the younger one seems to have rejected most of the old ways of doing things and openly embraced Europe, globalism and a cosmopolitan egalitarian society. I would not go so far to accuse this one of being woke, but savvy, and quite naturally able to accept and include anyone on their own merits.

[ORAC]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/562x800/image_986aad6cf0742269fcabeef682a946bb58853395.jpeg

[langleybaston]

jolihokistix (https://www.pprune.org/members/375892-jolihokistix)
There is an assumption that all/most/many old folk are reactionary and not QUOTE. able to accept and include anyone on their own merits.
This is not as I see myself and my generation born and living in England [I say England because English is how I see myself and family, certainly back to 1700 on both sides].
Thus:
The attitude might be described as: regarding foreigners ariving: you were welcome if you behaved yourselves according to our ancient laws, ethics and customs, did not sponge off our taxes, and if you did not regard it as home, you went home. Otherwise, please live among us, not in ghettoes. Please note that we are now full up, standing room only, with our infrastructure already inadequate.
Regarding many of the nearly 10 million people living here, all colours and creeds, but voluntarily not in work even though most are able to do something, I don't blame you because successive governments have made it a sensible decision. But don't expect to live as well as those busy grafting, or on a grafters pension.
Regarding homosexuality: please get on with it quietly ....... we know it happens but a lot of us find the idea repugnant. And don't recruit the under-age.
Regarding woke: yes we get the idea, it rights many wrongs, but most of us know how to behave, we were brought up properly, with good manners, opened doors for people, gave up seats, did not put shoes on chairs, said please and thank you.
Regarding public places of ease, we prefer to retain two or three distinct categories: Women, men, and specials such as baby change and disabled. Any thought of mixed [in either sense] makes us, male and femaile, cringe.
Finally, whilst ackowledging that minorities must be respected and reasonably enabled, they should not expect their wishes to prevail as a matter of right.

[TURIN]

That last line says everything, and why change is necessary. Good grief!

[langleybaston]

That last line says everything, and why change is necessary. Good grief!

So:
minorities must be respected and reasonably enabled, AND SHOULD expect their wishes to prevail as a matter of right?
That way madness lies.

[TURIN]

So:
minorities must be respected and reasonably enabled, AND SHOULD expect their wishes to prevail as a matter of right?
That way madness lies.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x779/fb_img_1601297093196_af3ce19432e1cbfc30f8d6bb9c1fd508b26d5a5 7.jpg
I refer you to my previous....

[idle bystander]

To me, whatever shade people are, they're just people. I've got no time for wokery.
You just contradicted yourself. The first sentence defines a woke person, and I'd be proud of it.

[Krystal n chips]

jolihokistix (https://www.pprune.org/members/375892-jolihokistix)
There is an assumption that all/most/many old folk are reactionary and not QUOTE. able to accept and include anyone on their own merits.
This is not as I see myself and my generation born and living in England [I say England because English is how I see myself and family, certainly back to 1700 on both sides].
Thus:
The attitude might be described as: regarding foreigners ariving: you were welcome if you behaved yourselves according to our ancient laws, ethics and customs, did not sponge off our taxes, and if you did not regard it as home, you went home. Otherwise, please live among us, not in ghettoes. Please note that we are now full up, standing room only, with our infrastructure already inadequate.
Regarding many of the nearly 10 million people living here, all colours and creeds, but voluntarily not in work even though most are able to do something, I don't blame you because successive governments have made it a sensible decision. But don't expect to live as well as those busy grafting, or on a grafters pension.
Regarding homosexuality: please get on with it quietly ....... we know it happens but a lot of us find the idea repugnant. And don't recruit the under-age.
Regarding woke: yes we get the idea, it rights many wrongs, but most of us know how to behave, we were brought up properly, with good manners, opened doors for people, gave up seats, did not put shoes on chairs, said please and thank you.
Regarding public places of ease, we prefer to retain two or three distinct categories: Women, men, and specials such as baby change and disabled. Any thought of mixed [in either sense] makes us, male and femaile, cringe.
Finally, whilst ackowledging that minorities must be respected and reasonably enabled, they should not expect their wishes to prevail as a matter of right.

Priceless ! ...a good opening line followed thereafter by... a perfect combination of self incriminating hypocrisy.

Not sure what date your calendar shows, but mine ends 2024 which is in the 21st century...in case you were wondering

"Woke" has become the all embracing epithet of choice for those determined to remain in their own Jurassic Park era.

The military are not exempt the influences of societal changes and development.

[stevef]

You just contradicted yourself. The first sentence defines a woke person, and I'd be proud of it.

Sorry, i_b, I don't quite understand your meaning. My bandwidth gets smaller the older I get. :confused:

[Geriaviator]

Should this thread be better moved to Jet Blast?

[Toadstool]

Should this thread be better moved to Jet Blast?

In my opinion no. There is a lot of discussion about woke from ex serving members and civilians who used to support ex serving members. All of that is disparaging about woke. Quite simply, woke is all about not being a ****. There are very few serving members who agree with this old anti woke brigade. Annoyingly, those ex serving members or civilians who have delusions of grandeur about being de facto officers have absolutely no idea what the forces are like now. Ironically, those people who decry woke think that being homophobic, sexist, racist et Al was just par for the course but somehow was great for unit cohesion. As someone who served back then and is still serving, I can categorically state that things are better now. Stop being a **** and look after your people.

[downsizer]

In my opinion no. There is a lot of discussion about woke from ex serving members and civilians who used to support ex serving members. All of that is disparaging about woke. Quite simply, woke is all about not being a ****. There are very few serving members who agree with this old anti woke brigade. Annoyingly, those ex serving members or civilians who have delusions of grandeur about being de facto officers have absolutely no idea what the forces are like now. Ironically, those people who decry woke think that being homophobic, sexist, racist et Al was just par for the course but somehow was great for unit cohesion. As someone who served back then and is still serving, I can categorically state that things are better now. Stop being a **** and look after your people.

As I've said before I was discharged in May 23, and this so called "woke" agenda wasn't in my reasons for PVRing....I can totally agree with the bolded bit. Is it (was it - I guess as I'm out) perfect, no of course not. But a lot of the unsavoury things I saw "back in the day" didn't happen anymore and all the better for it.

I'm not in the least bit afraid to admit that I engaged in activities that make me cringe today, but as a young immature individual who wanted to fit in, I didn't see the problem at the time. When I left I'd have never let some of those things happen to anyone who worked with me.

[downsizer]

I'd also suggest a lot of people who think they are about to be taken away by the "woke police" or whatever probably need their social media algorthims reset.

[langleybaston]

Surely the essence of democracy is that minorities can become majorities by persuasion, by urging the merits of their case. A prime example is the eventual abolition of capital punishment in the UK.

Minorities do not usually help their cause by abusing majorities and also not engaging in civilised debate. Majorities have a duty to respect minorities and listen and, if possible, react to their concerns.

As an example [above] of how not to persuade people, try: a perfect combination of self incriminating hypocrisy.

[downsizer]

Being self aware and and cognisant of past bad behaviour is hypocrisy now?

[langleybaston]

Being self aware and and cognisant of past bad behaviour is hypocrisy now?

I was quoting K & C above. Sorry if you misunderstood.

However, I have run my course on this one. I don't do rudeness.

[Senior Pilot]

Should this thread be better moved to Jet Blast?
It is on the verge of being moved or closed: the discussion has drifted away from Mil too often to be pertinent to this Forum.

Up to you all which way it goes 🤔

[rattman]

I vote for closed, it was obviously going to be a train wreck from the title

[langleybaston]

I vote for closed, it was obviously going to be a train wreck from the title

Wokeism does tend to have that affect

[langleybaston]

I vote for closed, it was obviously going to be a train wreck from the title

Wokeism does tend to have that affect.
Regarding aviation I was once rudely awakened at zero dark 15, in my maggot, by the observer:
1. Its snowing. Lots. Not forecast.
2. OC Flying is on the phone .....
LB still in a job
OC F Was a gentleman who knew how things went and cut LB some slack.
My only horizontal briefing.