Irish Air Corps - what's going on here ?

[7AC]

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/department-of-defence-tells-air-corps-it-lost-all-confidence-in-government-jet-1584248.html

[DaveReidUK]

The IAC's Learjet 45 has just celebrated its 20th birthday. It's a frequent sight over this side of the water, for obvious reasons, but it hasn't been seen much over the last 3 months or so.

[OldLurker]

This hissy-fit seems to arise from the Learjet being unavailable to take a minister from Dublin to Brussels. Anyone else flying that route (those without private aircraft) have to endure airport hassle and then the delights of Aer Lingus or even Ryanair. Perhaps the minister should try that experience?

[Una Due Tfc]

Spending money on Aer Corps equipment always terrifies Irish Governments. This Learjet was always the second fiddle to a Gulstream IV until that needed major overhaul in the Gulfstream factory. The Government dithered over whether to spend the required funds on the airframe until Gulfstream told them to make up their mind, whereupon it was sold to Gulfstream for apittance along with various spares (including an engine), who then overhauled it and sold it at a massive profit.

That Gulstream was supposed to be replaced by an A319 a few years earlier, but the public backlash ended that. This LJ likely has the most cycles of any in the world (like the Gulf IV did).

[BoeingDriver99]

And a basic subscription to Netjets would save millions

[Consol]

Nearly all the opposition in Ireland is very leftwing so a government jet is easy ammo despite the fact that every state has an air transport arm in the military, every incoming government will keep one and the aircraft is multi role (it is a highly effective air ambulance).
All AIC equipment tends to be very multi role anyway, such is the nature of operation.

[Belfast formation]

Nearly all the opposition in Ireland is very leftwing so a government jet is easy ammo despite the fact that every state has an air transport arm in the military, every incoming government will keep one and the aircraft is multi role (it is a highly effective air ambulance).
All AIC equipment tends to be very multi role anyway, such is the nature of operation.
it is not a “fact” that every state has an air transport arm in the military , some states that can’t afford it or don’t need it, or have a history of violent colonial militaristic rule , don’t have a military at all . Even states that can justify a military have in the past opted to remove the governments air transport arm , one notable one after the president and his senior civilian officials perished in the care of their “elite” flying servants .

[Union Jack]

And a basic subscription to Netjets would save millions

So someone probably decided that it would be more economical to sign up with Netflix instead....:D

Jack

[sitigeltfel]

Spending money on Aer Corps equipment always terrifies Irish Governments.

How dare they spend money on their own air defence, that's now a job for the Royal Air Force!

[Belfast formation]

It’s not their own defence - there is no aerial threat to Ireland except the one made up by those with vested interests - & the dublin zoo “meerkats” who watch too much TV. If the UK govt decides Irish airspace is a threat corridor to them then they should police it & pay for it. The biggest “threat” would be an air to air collision with an airliner or similar catastrophic mishap involving civilians by a fighter more than likely by a homegrown operator or far less likely by one of a neighbouring state -and that increased risk is precisely why Ireland should not squander tax payers money on a deluded doomed project to protect UK airspace. Only an idiot would spend vast sums of money on something already provided competently for free for which there is no actual need .

[Geriaviator]

Hell hath no fury like a politician denied his/her trip on a private jet.

[Lonewolf_50]

It’s not their own defence - there is no aerial threat to Ireland except the one made up by those with vested interests - & the dublin zoo “meerkats” who watch too much TV. If the UK govt decides Irish airspace is a threat corridor to them then they should police it & pay for it. The biggest “threat” would be an air to air collision with an airliner or similar catastrophic mishap involving civilians by a fighter more than likely by a homegrown operator or far less likely by one of a neighbouring state -and that increased risk is precisely why Ireland should not squander tax payers money on a deluded doomed project to protect UK airspace. Only an idiot would spend vast sums of money on something already provided competently for free for which there is no actual need . OK, I'll put you down for "votes against" on the tally sheet.
(But next time, please don't sugar coat it. Tell us how you really feel. :} )

[Miles Magister]

This LJ likely has the most cycles of any in the world

​​​​​​​I think the Ryan Air Lear Jets hold that accolade.

[Tartiflette Fan]

It’s not their own defence - there is no aerial threat to Ireland except the one made up by those with vested interests - & the dublin zoo “meerkats” who watch too much TV. If the UK govt decides Irish airspace is a threat corridor to them then they should police it & pay for it. The biggest “threat” would be an air to air collision with an airliner or similar catastrophic mishap involving civilians by a fighter more than likely by a homegrown operator or far less likely by one of a neighbouring state -and that increased risk is precisely why Ireland should not squander tax payers money on a deluded doomed project to protect UK airspace. Only an idiot would spend vast sums of money on something already provided competently for free for which there is no actual need .

The Irish government recognised some long time ago that Nature has shown the best way for an easy life.....be a parasite.

This is best illustrated by their beggar-your-neighbour international corporate tax policies ( happily now finally stamped out by EU) and the " defence policy " discussed in this thread.They should be flushed down the toilet until they recognise how to become an acceptable state. They are the N European equivalent of Hungary.

[Expatrick]

The Irish government recognisied some long time ago that Nature has shown the best way for an easy life.....be a parasite.

This is best illustrated by their beggar-your-neighbour international corporate tax policies ( happily now coming to an end ) and the " defence policy " discussed in this thread.They should be flushed down the toilet until they recognise how to become an acceptable state. They are the N European equivalent of Hungary.

At least Hungary has FJs in it's inventory.

[Martin the Martian]

The Irish government recognised some long time ago that Nature has shown the best way for an easy life.....be a parasite.

This is best illustrated by their beggar-your-neighbour international corporate tax policies ( happily now finally stamped out by EU) and the " defence policy " discussed in this thread.They should be flushed down the toilet until they recognise how to become an acceptable state. They are the N European equivalent of Hungary.

I imagine that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania should also get off their collective backsides and provide their own air defence rather than rely on the rest of NATO then?

[NutLoose]

As Lear are no longer building jets it will be interesting how long they will be supported, damned awful things to work on.

[Tartiflette Fan]

I imagine that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania should also get off their collective backsides and provide their own air defence rather than rely on the rest of NATO then?

Amazingly moronic comment even if you are trying a foray into sarcasm/satire/irony, litotes or similar. I can't recognise which it might be as the stupidity is overwhelming.

To perhaps re-jig a phrase from a well-known film " What has Ireland ever done for NATO ? "

[Lonewolf_50]

I imagine that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania should also get off their collective backsides and provide their own air defence rather than rely on the rest of NATO then?
Since they are in NATO, and Republic of Ireland is not, I find your post to be puzzling at best.

Ireland and their situation may be more like Costa Rica, who have no army. (Ireland has an Army, and they do contribute to some UN peacekeeping operations).
They have done a risk assessment and have so far found their risk versus expected result to arrive at "don't need an Air Force / Air Defense Fighters" for reasons peculiar to their situation.
Ticos are extremely proud of the fact that they have no army. Costa Ricans put effort into differentiating themselves from many of their more troubled and violent neighbors as well as their social, political, cultural, and environmental progressive policies. Civil war has not erupted in Costa Rica since 1948. In this same period, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Mexico, and El Salvador have all had civil wars and poured a lot of money into their military. Similarly, Panama has had significant problems with a military coup in the 1980s, and only disbanded their army in 1996. Now, they are becoming more stable.

[Davef68]

Or they do what the Uk did with the A320s and take elements of the Govt Flying Service out the hands of the military (and presumably the Defence budget)

[Martin the Martian]

Amazingly moronic comment even if you are trying a foray into sarcasm/satire/irony, litotes or similar. I can't recognise which it might be as the stupidity is overwhelming.

To perhaps re-jig a phrase from a well-known film " What has Ireland ever done for NATO ? "

One might also reasonably ask what have Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania ever done for NATO except border Russia? I'm not the one asking that, before you jump down my throat again, but it is a valid question. NATO has spent millions on military infrastructure in the Baltic States and provides its primary means of air defence. Would those countries ever be able to afford their own jet fighters? Like Ireland, of course not, but unlike Ireland they border Russia, and are seen to be worthy of the money.

If Ireland joined NATO and requested that jet fighters from other members be based at Baldonnel as Russian aircraft infringe its airspace along its Atlantic seaboard, what would be the difference? Or would that be freeloading because it is a long way from Russia?

[SLXOwft]

The Republic chooses not to have an air defence force for political not economic reasons, this is the country with the second or third highest per capita GDP in the world (depending on source) but its politicians chose to use that GDP to enrich the shareholders of multinationals. They spend c.0.25% of GDP on defence and expect 63% of its population to pay €50+ to visit a GP (unlike £0 for its neighbour). At some point these corporations may wake up to the fact they are in a country that can't protect the cables they rely on. Regarding air defence, as long as the government is in the hands of politicians who are prepared to rely on and facilitate AD by their neighbour there is no need for indigenous FJ capability, get a party in power that would have no truck with RAF overflights or RN ships then there might be some tough conversations with Washington.

The Baltic States have a combined population smaller than Ireland's, GDPs per head of c0.25% of the Republic's and contribute between c.2.25% and 2.75% of that GDP to defence. In the field of Air Defence they choose to spend it on radar and limited SAM capability.

P.S. Costa Rica and Panama have military forces, they just choose to call them something else.

[Asturias56]

This from the Irish Times last year suggests that Sinn Fein would improve the defence forces of the Republic but (perhaps) stop RAF over flights - we shall see.............................

Pat Leahy (https://www.irishtimes.com/author/pat-leahy/)
Mon May 8 2023 - 19:00

Sinn Féin has said it needs more information about the secret defence arrangement successive governments have operated with the British air force before it decides whether or not it would scrap the agreement if in government.

The party’s foreign affairs spokesman, Matt Carthy, said news of the arrangement, reported in The Irish Times (https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/05/08/secret-anglo-irish-air-defence-agreement-dates-back-over-70-years/), “simply further exposes the abysmal failure of successive Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil governments to invest in our Defence Forces and to ensure that, as an independent, neutral state, we can monitor and defend our airspace and our seas”.

Mr Carthy said that he has “sought a briefing from the Department of Defence on this matter, so as to clarify the legal and constitutional matters that have arisen from today’s report” but he also urged Tánaiste Micheál Martin to make a public statement on the issue.

[Lonewolf_50]

P.S. Costa Rica and Panama have military forces, they just choose to call them something else. Costa Rica has security forces (police) for internal security.
I didn't mention Panama.
Yes, you can argue that they are splitting hairs, but they have been consistent.
The party’s foreign affairs spokesman, Matt Carthy, said news of the arrangement, reported in The Irish Times (https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/05/08/secret-anglo-irish-air-defence-agreement-dates-back-over-70-years/), “simply further exposes the abysmal failure of successive Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil governments to invest in our Defence Forces and to ensure that, as an independent, neutral state, we can monitor and defend our airspace and our seas”.
That's a lot of talk, aimed at other political parties, until and unless they can influence a change.

[Tartiflette Fan]

One might also reasonably ask what have Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania ever done for NATO except border Russia? I'm not the one asking that, before you jump down my throat again, but it is a valid question. NATO has spent millions on military infrastructure in the Baltic States and provides its primary means of air defence. Would those countries ever be able to afford their own jet fighters? Like Ireland, of course not, but unlike Ireland they border Russia, and are seen to be worthy of the money.


Bordering Russia gives them significant strategic value to NATO to the benefit of the whole alliance. Estonia's current spend on defence is 3.2% , Lithuania 2.5%, Latvia 2.25% so , when combined with direct aid to Ukraine ( Estonia 1.26%, Latvia 1.09%, Lithuania 0.95% ) they are making very significant efforts..For comparison Ireland has donated 0.02%* It insults the Baltic states to bracket them with Ireland.. 0.02% is shamefully low when you consider that as a neutral state they should support the idea of national sovereignty and be willing to give more than a derisory amount in humanitarian aid.to a state defending itself against a barbaric aggressor. I wonder if RTE carried any news about the massacres and torture of civilians in Bucha ?

One might also reasonably ask what have Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania ever done for NATO except border Russia? I'm not the one asking that, before you jump down my throat again, but it is a valid question. NATO has spent millions on military infrastructure in the Baltic States and provides its primary means of air defence. Would those countries ever be able to afford their own jet fighters? Like Ireland, of course not, but unlike Ireland they border Russia, and are seen to be worthy of the money.

If Ireland joined NATO and requested that jet fighters from other members be based at Baldonnel as Russian aircraft infringe its airspace along its Atlantic seaboard, what would be the difference? Or would that be freeloading because it is a long way from Russia?

No difference unless Ireland continued to believe and protest that 0.2% GDP for defence was a fair contribution and others should continue to pay for it. This idea of paying your way is one of the few points on which I agreed with Trump.when he was arguing with Germany about their NAATO contributions.


* https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/

[Geriaviator]

The Republic chooses not to have an air defence force for political not economic reasons, this is the country with the second or third highest per capita GDP in the world (depending on source) but its politicians chose to use that GDP to enrich the shareholders of multinationals. They spend c.0.25% of GDP on defence and expect 63% of its population to pay €50+ to visit a GP (unlike £0 for its neighbour).
In fairness the Republic's GDP contains the mega-profits of Apple, Meta and similar multinationals who channel their European rakeoffs to benefit from Ireland's low rate of corporation tax. The 'personal' GDP is around or below European average I think. The Republic's medical system indeed charges plenty but its neighbour charges £0 only in theory. In practice. I'm forking out several £k to jump the NHS waiting list of 70 weeks for an URGENT dermatological appointment, with treatment even further ahead.

Returning to subject, Sinn Fein's pathological hatred of the UK will prevent any co-operation with its forces. They will probably and unwillingly accept a donation of a few billion euro to set up their own defence.:hmm:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I'm with Lonewolf on the subject of Costa Rica - had the privilege of visiting there last year and was impressed by how they spend the money saved by not having armed forces. Yes, there was a police presence in areas where immigrants from the 2 more-troubled neighbours tend to congregate - and that police presence appeared competent in its handling of its firearms - but every Costa Rican I spoke to was aware of how the savings paid for their universal education and universal basic health cover (the latter can be topped-up privately, but I have the impression from my conversations that the basic is adequate at the very least and probably better in terms of waiting lists than the UK's NHS). I was particularly struck by the pride of its citizens in Costa Rica's literacy and life-expectancy levels, as well as their general engagement in society rather than just in the wants/needs of the individual. No jingoistic nationalism for them - they're just properly chuffed with the benefits brought by hard work and sound investment. Even if some of the last goes toward China... but so does a lot of our money.

[Video Mixdown]

Returning to subject, Sinn Fein's pathological hatred of the UK will prevent any co-operation with its forces. They will probably and unwillingly accept a donation of a few billion euro to set up their own defence.:hmm:
They can always get their best mates the Yanks to flog them a few old F-16's - they're used to selling weapons to SF.

[pax britanica]

Some years ago i used to go to a regular international telecoms event in DC and for various reasons became quite friendly with the Costa Rican delegate. A very suave character with excellent English and a great sense of humour.
He said that while Costa Rica didn't have an army, that wasn't to say it didn't have a defence system. This was phone on the presidents desk with 1-800-PENTAGON written on it.

these events were always interesting and for some years, I would be seated close to Argentina and as we both liked football I got along well with the Argentina delegate, we used to literally compare notes that his foreign ministry had given him about lslas Malvinas and the Foreign Office had given me to respond to his statement. We did debate swapping them for a laugh but figured someone would notice and not be amused. His brother had been to the said islands and told him it was the worst place nods earth in terms of bleakness and bad weather. the Plenary sessions to these sorts of events were often pretty boring and these minor amusements were welcome. Another one was the misspelling or Ireland to avoid Iran and Iraq sitting next to one another / As these were telecom global telecoms events the complexities were not as strictly observed as they would be at political events

[air pig]

Only an idiot would spend vast sums of money on something already provided competently for free for which there is no actual need .

Until Russian Bear Ds and Hs flying without a transponder in Irish Airspace.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/russian-bombers-in-irish-airspace-for-second-time-in-days-1.4200213

[SWBKCB]

Thisnhas come a ways from an unserviceable Lear Jet and we seemed to have morphed into this thread

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/633616-ireland-considers-purchase-ad-fighters-13.html

[Lonewolf_50]

They can always get their best mates the Yanks to flog them a few old F-16's - they're used to selling weapons to SF.
While I realize that you are taking the piss, wouldn't a Gripen be a better value for the dollar? Situate a couple of EW radars in the right places, and run GCI as the normal ops.
Should meet the "good enough" standard.