Is a C210 a dangerous plane?

[zegnaangelo]

Doing some research into getting type familiar on the C210 and I'm seeing that there have been a few crashes caused by an in-flight breakup (wings broken off???) in the C210 of late?

Is it something to do with the design of the wing and lack of struts? I don't see C172's breaking up in flight!

Also, why do people say that if you can fly a C206, you can fly a C210? I thought the latter was more complex (and faster?)

https://www.google.com/search?q=c210+crash+atsb&rlz=1C1GCEU_enHK820HK820&oq=c210+crash+atsb&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigAdIBCDQz ODNqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Fred Gassit]

There has been a heap written on this subject before and I'm sure you're going to get some great answers here too but I would preface by comparing it's overall accident rate to other aircraft.
Also consider the nature of the hours flown by this particular workhorse machine. 4 different 210s I flew have been destroyed...none of them happened because it was a 210.
(It has one of the strongest wings but ADs need to be carried out to ensure it stays that way)

[compressor stall]

No but it demands respect (sure as do most aircraft).

At ten hours on type I thought I was getting the hang of it.

At 100 hours I looked back at how poorly I flew at 10 hours.

At 500 hours on type I looked back at how much more comfortable and precise in my flying than I was than with 100 hours on type.

After 1000 hours in type, I progressed to twins. (such was the progression then). Soon after, I had to fill in for a day on the 210.

That’s when it bit me. . Fortunately nothing more than a bruised ego, a good amount of extra heart beats and a lesson very well learned the hard way.

[rioncentu]

Engine handling the 210 & 206 are the same. Speeds and general handling they are not the same.

210 wing failure - Yes one crashed here which started a lot of world wide checking requirements. For the good.

Wings fall off any plane if handled incorrectly.

I have done 1200 odd hours in mine and consider it far from dangerous.Might be biased but what can do what a 210 does for similar $$?

[Capt Fathom]

All aircraft are dangerous…… in the wrong hands!

[SOPS]

I have about 900 hours on the 210..( just checked the logbook…857.25). They are a great aircraft….but need to be flown as designed. Speeds need to be respected…..but I always thought it was a lovely aircraft.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

From the 'Snag Book' of a certain VH-***, which I flew ex KAL a 'few' times,

'Windscreen creaks on descent - frightens passengers...
F****ing TERRIFIES Pilot!' (To those who knew him, a rather English Gentleman.)

Windscreen eventually replaced.

Watch the IAS / Manoeuvring speed.......

[lucille]

I was flying already weary C210s in the mid 70s. 50 years later they’re still tooling around (mainly) desert Australia with its strong thermals and subsequent heavy turbulence.

I’ll bet Mr. Cessna never designed the C210 to have so many hours and cycles put on it.

To answer the question… the C210 type is no more or less dangerous than any of its peers. However, certain, examples maybe because of too many airframe hours, poor maintenance and pilot abuse.

[Global Aviator]

Very forgiving if you forget to dangle the Dunlops!

Jack her up, wheels down, new prop and off ya go.

Great aircraft, one of the toughest assignments I’ve seen a 210 on was the ole Air North paper run, every night 365 days a year.

[outnabout]

Any aircraft can kill you (or at the very least, embarrass you) if handled incorrectly.

things specifically to watch for on a 210:
turbulence penetration speed - do not exceed in any sort of turbulence.
forgetting to dangle the dunlops.
speeds not under control in the circuit, resulting in landing too fast and braking too hard after landing (big brakes, little tyres, very easy to blow out a main tyre or two on landing).

Remember, as aircraft age, it might not be you who is doing the incorrect handling but you might very well be the PIC who is in the wrong place at the wrong time.

However, careful pilot handling and consistently good maintenance means the well cared for 210 is a joy to fly.

(got a couple thousand hours in 210s).

to the poster who said that only the prop needs to be replaced after a prop strike - be aware the engine needs to be bulk stripped after any sort of prop strike to ensure no internal damage.

[Global Aviator]

Any aircraft can kill you (or at the very least, embarrass you) if handled incorrectly.

to the poster who said that only the prop needs to be replaced after a prop strike - be aware the engine needs to be bulk stripped after any sort of prop strike to ensure no internal damage.

Yes you are correct a bulk strip eventually, however I have seen 2 x 210’s with a gear up, prop replaced and flown 1 flight back to maintenance base. All approved and written up. Ok that was over 20 years ago.

[43Inches]

Yes you are correct a bulk strip eventually, however I have seen 2 x 210’s with a gear up, prop replaced and flown 1 flight back to maintenance base. All approved and written up. Ok that was over 20 years ago.

I have seen similar with other aircraft types, 1 flight back to base with new prop, engine then inspected. Similar, 20+ years ago.

[Bend alot]

to the poster who said that only the prop needs to be replaced after a prop strike - be aware the engine needs to be bulk stripped after any sort of prop strike to ensure no internal damage.

Not in the days the poster was talking about - crankshaft run out & filter inspection, after ground run was perfectly fine. (personally never had 1 fail after that was done & I did a few)

Also do not forget modified aircraft have been in the "clap group" crashes. I have seen a number of crashed for various reasons C210 including controlled flight into terrain & hitting power pole on forced landing - the old wings are still very strong.

[krismiler]

The C210 is a fairly high performance aircraft but being single engined it's something that new CPLs get onto early in their career so inexperience may be a factor. A bit like a "P" plate licence holder driving a V8. The landing gear system isn't the best design and there are numerous issues with it. IIRC the C210 is on BHPs avoid list for charters.

The C206 is a tradie's ute and the C210 is an HSV Commodore, whilst you can drive both on the same licence you need to know the differences.

[Pinky the pilot]

Perhaps the Mods could consider merging this thread with the C210 vs C206.

[Capt Fathom]

The C210 is a fairly high performance aircraft but being single engined it's something that new CPLs get onto early in their career so inexperience may be a factor. A bit like a "P" plate licence holder driving a V8. The landing gear system isn't the best design and there are numerous issues with it. IIRC the C210 is on BHPs avoid list for charters.


What a load of bollocks! It’s just an aeroplane!

[krismiler]

I’ve flown both and know the difference, they were the first two types I flew when I got my CPL, give me a C206 over a C210 for bush work any day. As these are aircraft that are likely to be flown in commercial operations by those at the lower end of the experience spectrum, this may be reflected in the accident rate. Also they are very common types so they are likely to feature more often in accidents and incidents.

Both are decent aircraft and should present no problem if correctly maintained and operated. However, being typical first job aircraft they are the ones new CPL holders are learning from their mistakes on.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I did the Private Pilot Training for the son of a friend of mine. As soon as he was licensed I trained him to fly his fathers 210. Not a big deal, with training mostly concentrated on engine handling and staying ahead of the airplane due to its greater speed.

Insurance company wanted 10 hours of dual but I would have been happy to kick him out of the nest after 5. The 210 isn’t the space shuttle, it’s a Cessna and flies like all the other Cessna SEP’s

[PiperCameron]

I lost a friend and colleague in his 210 west of Darwin several years back. He got overtaken by a storm and apparently discovered too late that turbulence penetration speed is definitely an issue.

[nomorecatering]

Are there many 210's still doing outback flying? How many?

[Bend alot]

Are there many 210's still doing outback flying? How many?
Yes - Lots of them.
Not really a replacement.

CAsA have 267 of the 210 L,M&N variants on the register - my guess is about 2/3 are in the outback flying gig, or more.

[Kunnas]

Yes - Lots of them.
Not really a replacement.

CAsA have 267 of the 210 L,M&N variants on the register - my guess is about 2/3 are in the outback flying gig, or more.
Plenty in Darwin, Kununurra and Broome. What would be a viable alternative to the 210 I wonder?

[Pinky the pilot]

Just thought that I'd have a look at the summary from Log book #1 and found that I last flew a C210 on 27/8/84.

IIRC it was VH-TEV which had gear doors, and I was told by the Instructor who checked me out on it (Chris B) that it was then reputedly the fastest C210 in Australia!:ooh:

From memory we were at 3,500' in smooth air and I was told to set 25"/2500rpm in level flight.

I think we achieved 175KIAS. A bit too long ago to say definitely.

[The Wawa Zone]

Short answer: No.
If you are looking for a job then first get a dozen hours PIC on both, and get your short field t/off and landing techniques down pat.
The in flight breakups of late seem to have been in convective weather, which can create two outcomes; the wings come off in controlled wings-level flight due to turbulence or control has been lost and the thing is over stressed while trying to recover. Either way, the first problem was getting into a really small bit of cloud that wasn't actually a really small bit of cloud.

C172's are less likely to be found flying around in cloud in remote tropical areas up north, that's why.

"If you can fly a C206, you can fly a C210 ?" You can fly a C210 as well and lots more, but I think you are asking about differences.
I'll try to find a C210 cheat sheet I made up in a different century, but basically:
1. don't overestimate what you can do in a 206 or underestimate what you can do in a 210.
2. the 210 wants to float if a couple of knots too fast on final, and will float along in ground effect until it drops like a wet beach towel, assumes a banana shape, and needs to be dragged off behind a tractor while leaving deep ruts in the ground. Fly finals using correct airspeed for weight and correct aimpoint and this won't happen.
3. figure out why there is a 4kt difference in stall speed between front and rear CG limits and use it.
4. the best concept I've ever heard about the C210 was years ago on PPRune - 'the C210 is like a big fast 1000cc road bike, it's not a trail bike. Treat it like a trail bike and it will kill you'. You need to fly it. The 206 will kill you for the same reason, just not quite so soon.
5. keep the gear mechanisms clean and with a lubed greasy feel.
6. read again what Compressor Stall wrote above, the thing wears many layers of clothing.

[Capt Fathom]

I’m pinching myself now, knowing I survived flying the C205 C206 & C210 all those years ago. What was I thinking?

[zegnaangelo]

Short answer: No.
If you are looking for a job then first get a dozen hours PIC on both, and get your short field t/off and landing techniques down pat.
The in flight breakups of late seem to have been in convective weather, which can create two outcomes; the wings come off in controlled wings-level flight due to turbulence or control has been lost and the thing is over stressed while trying to recover. Either way, the first problem was getting into a really small bit of cloud that wasn't actually a really small bit of cloud.

C172's are less likely to be found flying around in cloud in remote tropical areas up north, that's why.

"If you can fly a C206, you can fly a C210 ?" You can fly a C210 as well and lots more, but I think you are asking about differences.
I'll try to find a C210 cheat sheet I made up in a different century, but basically:
1. don't overestimate what you can do in a 206 or underestimate what you can do in a 210.
2. the 210 wants to float if a couple of knots too fast on final, and will float along in ground effect until it drops like a wet beach towel, assumes a banana shape, and needs to be dragged off behind a tractor while leaving deep ruts in the ground. Fly finals using correct airspeed for weight and correct aimpoint and this won't happen.
3. figure out why there is a 4kt difference in stall speed between front and rear CG limits and use it.
4. the best concept I've ever heard about the C210 was years ago on PPRune - 'the C210 is like a big fast 1000cc road bike, it's not a trail bike. Treat it like a trail bike and it will kill you'. You need to fly it. The 206 will kill you for the same reason, just not quite so soon.
5. keep the gear mechanisms clean and with a lubed greasy feel.
6. read again what Compressor Stall wrote above, the thing wears many layers of clothing.


thanks for this!

someone told me that this thing stalls easily on short final? and that it will go into a unrecoverable spin? is that true or just internet heresay?

in any case i think i will take a few lessons in a C210 just for fun - i doubt anyone will let me solo it with my low hours at the moment - I'm just a PPL(A) and not looking for work. but i seem to have this addiction in wanting to find new planes to fly and heard so much about the C200 series of planes. also interestingly, i have a chance to take the IR course in a C206 and may just do that...

[Global Aviator]

Think back to when you learnt to fly before the high and mighty pfft it’s just an aeroplane (yes I know it is).

There are a few things I remember from waaaayyyyy back. The first was when a C401 rocked up at the flying school and we all thought it was a space shuttle. A while later jumped in a C210 and the same wow what a machine.

No they are not unsafe but that’s only if you treat em right, pretty much like any aircraft. I fly a small private jet at the moment that demands the same kinda respect, I may have a ****e ton of hours but still, respect the jet!

Now talk about a fast 210, ya ever fly one with the IO550 installed!

As for replacements, as has been stated there are not really any.

The 210 be it on tourist ops, black fella runs or full of cargo, what a beast…

Newbies follow the advice of Stall and Wawa and then talk to your peers who still fly the beast.

[krismiler]

I last flew a C210 in 1988 and a C206 in 1999. The C206 has struts which hold the wings to the fuselage and fixed landing gear, it’s therefore a more solid aircraft.

Even if you’re instrument rated and the aircraft is certified for IFR, be very careful about what you actually fly into. Even with weather radar you can still get caught out. A solid bank of cumulus can give you a good shake up and a towering cumulus is a CB without water. I’ve had to descend urgently due to heavy icing in an aircraft which was certified for icing conditions and had lightning strikes in cloud well away from CBs.

My present aircraft is jet powered, pressurised, radar equipped and certified for known or forecast icing conditions. I’m still very careful about what I go into.

[C441]

The 210 was the workhorse for the mob I flew for in the Territory in the 80s. We had at least a dozen of them across a number of bases doing mail runs and general charter, skipping along at a good pace meaning they could earn lots of dollars more quickly than the 206, with almost the same payload capacity.

They handled the dirt strips, even some of the rougher ones, with a firmer ride but just as adequately as the 'Duck' - the 206 with a pod.

Ours were well maintained and provided you treated them as if they were your own, they were a safe, reliable and comfortable aircraft.

[Global Aviator]

[QUOTE=C441;11584926]The 210 was the workhorse for the mob I flew for in the Territory in the 80s. We had at least a dozen of them across a number of bases doing mail runs and general charter, skipping along at a good pace meaning they could earn lots of dollars more quickly than the 206, with almost the same payload capacity.

No doubt many of those exact ones still doing the same thing 40 years later!

[compressor stall]

All that said, the most dangerous 210 is in the hands of an early 20's CPL holder with 500 hours in a remote NT base with minimal supervision a few seconds after saying "watch this!".

Two that spring to mind.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2002/aair/aair200201100
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2001/aair/aair200100591

[krismiler]

No doubt many of those exact ones still doing the same thing 40 years later!

I’m amazed at the number of aircraft which I learn on, or flew at the start of my career, that are still flying. And they were far from new back then.
​​​​​​​

[Capt Fathom]

The C206 has struts which hold the wings to the fuselage and fixed landing gear, it’s therefore a more solid aircraft.

So are you saying aircraft without struts are not as strong? That’s a lot of aircraft.

[drpixie]

So are you saying aircraft without struts are not as strong? That’s a lot of aircraft.

Well there. That's what wrong with that 737-Max. No struts! Nothing holding those wings on. It's no wonder the doors fall off. :hmm::*

[zegnaangelo]

if i learn and do a course say 20hours on the c206, is it a trivial thing to transition to a c210 in future? or should i just learn on a c210 from day one? cost is obviousoy more for the latter...

[krismiler]

Well there. That's what wrong with that 737-Max. No struts! Nothing holding those wings on. It's no wonder the doors fall off. :hmm::*

The only low wing aircraft I’ve seen with struts are crop sprayers. They have a very hard life involving extreme manoeuvring, operating from farm strips and rapid weight changes as payload is dispensed.

[krismiler]

if i learn and do a course say 20hours on the c206, is it a trivial thing to transition to a c210 in future? or should i just learn on a c210 from day one? cost is obviousoy more for the latter...

Look at the types in the fleets of the operators you’re targeting but I would be inclined to do the C206 first, it will give you a good grounding and it’s an aircraft used for dropping skydivers which is a typical first job.