Wearing a tie in the cockpit

[DaveUnwin]

Hi All, I was just wondering when the RAF brass came to the conclusion that wearing a tie in the cockpit wasn't the world's greatest idea. Does anyone know? https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1481/152731202_257742109128599_7429609431525506250_n_32d07497f9fa 544dd5414595912a5cc397d73be2.jpg

[GeeRam]

Hi All, I was just wondering when the RAF brass came to the conclusion that wearing a tie in the cockpit wasn't the world's greatest idea. Does anyone know? https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1481/152731202_257742109128599_7429609431525506250_n_32d07497f9fa 544dd5414595912a5cc397d73be2.jpg

One of those badly 'colourised' photographs done by someone with little knowledge of the period :rolleyes:

19 Sqn probably taken at Fowlmere at the height of the Battle of Britain in Sept '40, with Brian Lane and 'Grumpy' Unwin sitting on the wing with Sqn mascot Flash in between them with Lane holding his paw.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

I recall with warm affection the woollen aircrew shirt, with collar...... that ensemble was completed with a towelling cravat.

It was also long enough to keep your bum warm.

Possibly not as formal as you are seeking, but it had a collar to accept a tie if required.

I guess the execrable green polo was introduced early 70s, dooming the tie forever.

[bspatz]

For many years I thought the Air Force Board members had shares in a tie manufacturer as every time we saw a change in uniform it still required that a tie be worn, in particular when they decided to introduce a v neck pullover plus tie which made us all look like geography teachers rather that the round neck sans tie favoured by the Army.

[campbeex]

Two of the photograph subjects appear to have eschewed collars, never mind ties.

[DaveUnwin]

PPRuNe personified! Four replies, no answer! PS GeeRam I think Flash was George Unwin's dog, not the squadron's.

[NutLoose]

For many years I thought the Air Force Board members had shares in a tie manufacturer as every time we saw a change in uniform it still required that a tie be worn, in particular when they decided to introduce a v neck pullover plus tie which made us all look like geography teachers rather that the round neck sans tie favoured by the Army.


Ahhh the combatless wooley pulley, sod all use keeping ones neck warm in the field, but looked lovely in a shiny office.

Wasn't it WW2 when pilots found a collar and tie chaffed a lot from all the constant head turning to see if their tail was clear, so they went over to wearing silk scarves that reduced the chaffing?

[NutLoose]

WW1

https://letterslostthenfound.com/the-pilots-scarf-its-history-the-off-white-color-and-uses/

[BEagle]

VC10 and TriStar truckies wore blues with collar and tie in the '80s, however VC10K crews wore flying suits. At first we were told that flying suits weren't to be worn 'north of the runway' and we were supposed to change back into blues if we needed to Ops or Accounts or wherever. Needless to say, we soon rebelled at such stupidity and only wore blues when we were 'unavailable for flying' for some reason....

It was farcical in the early days of the VC10C1K - for AAR the crews wore flying clothing, but for trucking they wore blues.... Sanity eventually prevailed and all truckies were told to wear flying clothing! That said, the cabin crew ladies looked much smarter in those blue/grey cabin dresses rather than in badly fitting flying suits.

[Mogwi]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/235x283/young_lad_73cc8d9863c819f9b2313d8817a7958081704009.jpg
Cravats OK in RN in 1966!

[GeeRam]

PPRuNe personified! Four replies, no answer! PS GeeRam I think Flash was George Unwin's dog, not the squadron's.

He was George's, yes, but by all accounts, the Sqn 'adopted' him as their Sqn mascot.

[sycamore]

Don`t forget the string vests and `shreddies`....

[campbeex]

PPRuNe personified! Four replies, no answer!

PPRuNE personified, a subject more befitting the "Aviation History and Nostalgia" forum popping in "Military Aviation".

[Mogwi]

Don`t forget the string vests and `shreddies`....

Still got the string vests in the loft! Shorts Aircrew Anti-Flash (in jolly blue/white gingham!) long gone though.

Mog

[Ken Scott]

I have a vague recollection of wearing blues (No 2 with tie) flying to Berlin in a Jetsream as part of my multi-engine cse in 1991… again when acting as co-pilot in a Jetstream flying to St Mawgan for a funeral whilst wearing No 1s.

During a visit to Arnhem on a Staff Ride we went to the cemetery where Flt Lt Lord VC is buried alongside his co, Plt Off Medhurst. They were originally buried beside their crashed Dakota, after the war the sole survivor, navigator Flt Lt King, whose testimony secured Lord his VC (he’d been captured and spent the rest of the war as a POW) was present when the bodies were exhumed ready to be moved to the CWG Cemetery. He was able to identify Lord’s body by the DFC ribbon on his battledress, and Medhurst because he always wore a collar & tie.

incIdentally Medhurst was 19 and on his first mission.

Answer to your question: it’s not been routine in most aircraft for many years and the issue flying clothing hasn’t included a tie for a long time, except for certain shiny fleets & VIP movements who were blues until fairly recently. No idea what they wear on VIP flights on 32 (Royal) Sqn’s shiny bizjets today.

There are pictures of pilots wearing flying suits over blue shirts & ties in the 1970s so I guess some element of choice had prevailed until quite recently.

[GeeRam]

In those tremendously evocative Fox News photos taken at Hawkinge in late July 1940, off the members of B Flight, 32 Sqn sitting on the grass at readiness near their Hurricanes, none of the 7 pilots are seen wearing a collar/tie in that photo, all are wearing roll necks or silk scarves.

[Ken Scott]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/125x175/img_5527_6892d194ea0f2ac9fa99a5e6475fd4b0dbd62147.jpeg
Never mind the tie, the pilot flying the Hurricane prototype is wearing a Trilby…

[GeeRam]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/125x175/img_5527_6892d194ea0f2ac9fa99a5e6475fd4b0dbd62147.jpeg
Never mind the tie, the pilot flying the Hurricane prototype is wearing a Trilby…

I believe George Bullman was always suitable attired when flying :)
Won a MC flying Sopwith Camels with the RFC during WW1.

[VM325]

One of those badly 'colourised' photographs done by someone with little knowledge of the period :rolleyes:

19 Sqn probably taken at Fowlmere at the height of the Battle of Britain in Sept '40, with Brian Lane and 'Grumpy' Unwin sitting on the wing with Sqn mascot Flash in between them with Lane holding his paw.

I'm curious, what colours are wrong?
Nothing seems to scream out at me...

[MightyGem]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/125x175/img_5527_6892d194ea0f2ac9fa99a5e6475fd4b0dbd62147.jpeg
Never mind the tie, the pilot flying the Hurricane prototype is wearing a Trilby…
So did Igor Sikorsky.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/512x392/unnamed_7b7e6cf280d13bb2f7185caa4ecd1a9ac30737c1.png

[John Eacott]

Still got the string vests in the loft! Shorts Aircrew Anti-Flash (in jolly blue/white gingham!) long gone though.

Mog
They were required to be returned with the rest of my Flying Clothing on leaving: I had one pair missing, charged some pathetic amount regardless that they would have been binned.

The rest of my gear remained in the Aircrew (huge) kitbag along with my bone dome, something like three sets of baggy green skins, a few pairs of gloves, boots, etc etc. So a reasonable charge which I wasn't going to argue about :p

As for the thread title, I have no memory of ever flying in collar and tie which is Good Thing as we were still in starched collars and collar studs for a disgustingly long time. Old photos show either personal knitted jumper (winter) or any old T Shirt in summer. I think the cotton roll necks came in around 1970-71, but that was the Senior Service and may have been earlier for the Light Blues.



https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1086x1533/jge_in_flying_gear_07cef18f20939c91df264207b1fba34a954c4e34. jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1340x2000/jge_on_chipmunk_wheel_fc6aa56600f3b3391b0608cb5c8967c10c24ea a0.jpg

[DirtyProp]

Is that a Vespa 150 in the back?

[Asturias56]

with L plates!!

[John Eacott]

Is that a Vespa 150 in the back?
Not mine :8

I had a Honda C90 step through :cool:

[MPN11]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/235x283/young_lad_73cc8d9863c819f9b2313d8817a7958081704009.jpg
Cravats OK in RN in 1966!
White silk for me in 1963! :ok:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x466/brnc_tiger__16b7f388c1ca35afed0c804cef390fd6ee34e960.jpeg

[Lima Juliet]

I believe the Vespina Voyager folks wear blues - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespina_%28aircraft%29

They certainly were a couple of years back…

[Cornish Jack]

John Eacott makes a good point about the collar detached shirts, which were standard issue when I joined in 53. Our flying suits were the silvery-grey style complete with those glorious fleece lined boots, four glove layers, leather helmets and MK 8's. For a short period, in the late 50s, we could buy plastic re-usable collars, but then came the blue aircrew shirts (initially Van Heusen, but quickly replaced by the bean-counters, by the horrid, horrid disasters from Faulats of Belfast !) Leather helmets replaced by blue cloth style and first introduction to bone-domes on Sycamores in mid 50s. Still have last issue flying boots (almost new) and sundry bits and pieces. Add in bone-dome variations and various accessories like dinghy kntves and throat mics and one could generate an extensive research project ! Wooly-pullies would, of course, require a separate project ! ;)

[DaveUnwin]

Thanks for all the feedback folks. I'm sure I've seen a line up of students next to either Gnats or JPs and they're wearing flying suits and ties, but I guess it could've been a promo shot?

[radar101]

56 Sqn 1961 - squadron cravats - Peter Hillwood was ex 56 (BofB)

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1653/cimg9831_42344bf30e887bfb42678ff193ef1de6cf1cf44a.jpg

[DAHenriques]

I can tell you that here in the States, even in commercial aviation, during my tenure, any pilot worth the title closed the cockpit door, put the Jeppsen case where the PB&J sandwich could be reached easily and ripped the damn tie off or loosened it considerably while under their breath uttering a few choice words for the idiots in the front office who wrote the "tie rule".
Dudley Henriques

[Ken Scott]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/570x742/img_5533_a0d0495832c70c288bce16dc4d7c2ec197773312.jpeg
This from 1972, wearing a collar & tie under his flying suit… but then he’s only the nav…!

[XN593]

A handsome individual circa 1973/74.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/712x1754/20230602_162300_3_5e1b005cb9d46533d0518352f085f3911f98a1de.j pg

[EXDAC]

I'm curious, what colours are wrong?
Nothing seems to scream out at me...

Was this ever answered? I'm curious because I was fooled and thought it was a genuine early colour photo. Perhaps the lack of fading should have been a clue.

[beamer]

I remember in my Trukkie days, we would leave the UK in flying suits but upon arrival were required to change into blue uniform for the two mile journey from the airport at Gander to the motel - in the winter we would wear cold weather jackets over our blues. In the morning we would have to get changed again back into green bags for a flight to Belize. Upon arrival in Central America we would have to change into KD uniform for a taxi ride in a beaten up old Cadillac to our hotel in town. On the way home we would often stop in Washington where we would stay in the same hotel as the VC10 crews who would turn up in Number One uniform - they were not happy with us staying on their very pleasant downtown hotel but fortunately not their call. Some time in the 1980’s our Station Commander saw through the insanity of all this and introduced his own rule that crews could wear flying suits throughout the task with the only stipulation that they should be clean and tidy which simply meant that Flt Engineers, Loadies and GE’s would carry a spare green bag for transportation from and to the airport.

Apologies for the thread creep above. During the 20 years or so of my subsequent Commercial career, I always took off my tie as soon as I entered the flight deck and put it back on again only for the walk to the car park or taxi to the hotel.

[Planemike]

One pilot you probably would not have found in the cockpit without a tie was Roland ("Roly") John Falk, he of Vulcan fame. Often flew in a pin stripe suit and certainly with a tie....
If I was a tad more ""techie"" I would be able to furnish you an image of the immaculate Mr Falk....!!!

[DirtyProp]

I can tell you that here in the States, even in commercial aviation, during my tenure, any pilot worth the title closed the cockpit door, put the Jeppsen case where the PB&J sandwich could be reached easily and ripped the damn tie off or loosened it considerably while under their breath uttering a few choice words for the idiots in the front office who wrote the "tie rule".
Dudley Henriques

Never heard of clip-ons? Lifesavers!

[langleybaston]

Nostalgia is, of course, not what it used to be.
Your baby weatherman at RAF Uxbridge 1955 was encumbered by front stud, back stud, cuff links [silver, monogrammed], starched collar, white shirt, School or Met. Office tie and three piece suit. The shirt cuffs became dark grey in 12 hours anywhere near to London. Also trouser turn-ups which accumulated debris. Braces. Fly buttons. On a long night shift the sheer discomfort of turning the neck was enough to keep one awake.
Within about five years the dress code unwound to a startling degree, for which mercy many thanks, but early experiments with zip flies were hazardous.
Since retirement a tie is for funerals, weddings and holding up Compo trousers. Quote: "you're not going to the shop wearing that!" "Oh yes I bl##dy-well am!"

[Sleeve Wing]

Towling 1960. Cravat 1961 onwards- suave !
Civi ? Always clip on. Safety and comfort, particularly on longer trips. Then still tidy on arrival.

[meleagertoo]

Clip-on ties were certainly a useful feature of my civvie days - invaluable for attaching to the glareshield whenever crossfeeding - to ensure no-one forgot...

[BEagle]

I always thought that clip on ties were rather lower deck, much like ready made bow ties.

However, when the safety benefits of the clip on tie were explained, I saw the reasoning. If you were wearing a tie and had to evacuate in a hurry, the last thing you would want would be to be hanged by your tie!

[langleybaston]

Also a safety feature in other occupations: my son is a retired superstore manager. As such, all his peer group were compelled to wear ties on the shop floor and these had to be clip-on. Presumably when dealing with large drunken customers at closing time [they closed in those days].

[oldmansquipper]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1088/scan0014_original_3c548c76faae3ad5f6cc3298ab97879496abc5f6.j peg
The GC was an armourer - so didn’t do ties.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/604x388/img_2109_original_e7c5a6528c612849178fc4d84307c5156c42f156.j peg
Wg Cdr John Butler (in the Me. cockpit has a tie on, too.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x676/img_1925_original_144808c9f61ddacf08fe3c0b46ac5d8e43e99637.j peg
Style personified. Colour coded end to end!
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1798x1177/img_1223_original_8827c888868aafc1de0f3e3108ec730b60bbead0.j peg
The ultimate aviator and gentleman to boot? Doug Bridson always wore a tie when flying. (1970) Pretty sure he wore one at Jever on Hunters in 58 to.

[Ninthace]

I used to wear a tie to fly at Cosford with the Wrekin, but only during the working week, if I could sneak a tow while UBAS stopped for lunch. I got pulled up the Stn Cdr following such a trip when I wandered into the Mess looking a bit rumpled after 4 hours wandering round the skies of Shropshire in my woolly pully. I think my reply was to the effect that a long time in a parachute harness tended to do that to one’s uniform.

[reynoldsno1]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1379/264_5_acw_on_l_mmd_on_r_7de8d62a7c306702dfe85022b7ee69b5ddf7 1a40.jpg
My uncle, on the left with dapper cravat, at ALG5 (Le Fresne-Camilly) after diverting on 8 August 1944. They had shot down a Ju88 in the early morning hours which had blown up 150yds in front of them, hence the fire damage. The pair, who had flown on Beaufighters and Mosquitos together, had received bars to their DFC's a few days beforehand. My uncle was killed on 12 Aug following a tragic accident on the Cherbourg peninsular.

[snapper1]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/759x1600/s_l1600_4beea6229ae053e1792c76d37d9ed1a78c4dabe2.jpg

[albatross]

I was told not to wear a wool tie because if you go in the water the darn thing will shrink once in the raft, Choking you as it dries and it will be impossible to get off as the knot will tighten up.
For that reason the company issued very nice, high quality clip on ties which we sometimes had to wear if shirt, bars and other regalia were required. Not required if wearing a flight or immersion suit.

[DaveUnwin]

Watched 'The Shepherd' last night (not as good as the book) and noticed the pilot was wearing a tie. Would the RAF really have sent the pilot of a single engine jet across the North Sea, in mid-winter - wearing a tie?

[Wetstart Dryrun]

There was an excellent programme on PBS America about Bob Hoover, TP extraordinary.

He was Mr suit and tie until his Mustang caught fire.....

Mr Nomex there after