UK AAIB(H) January 2024 Welshpool: Passenger given control of helicopter before crash

[Luther Sebastian]

R-22 dynamic rollover during an air experience trip. Student appears not to have much natural talent. link (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/659d2fd9aa18b1000da199ae/Robinson_R22_Beta_G-BXOA_01-24.pdf)

[212man]

R-22 dynamic rollover during an air experience trip. Student appears not to have much natural talent. link (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/659d2fd9aa18b1000da199ae/Robinson_R22_Beta_G-BXOA_01-24.pdf)
I think there’s a good reason why hovering is exercise 11a in the EASA PPL syllabus. This activity sounds like a recipe for a problem.

[Peter H]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67956994
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/976x549/_132286208_screenshot2024_01_12095833_3a678af78b988c7737f1e7 81f752564902b351d9.jpg

[ShyTorque]

Why - had the pilot given up? :confused:

[Luther Sebastian]

Here’s another for Jan 2024 - I saw it earlier but now they must have fixed the link. Ground handling wheel falls off Rotorway: link (https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-rotorway-executive-162f-modified-g-zhwh)

[Pilot DAR]

In any case, the pilot was responsible for the flight. Stating that the passenger was flying, and perhaps did not relinquish control when asked, really does not change the responsibility of the pilot - in the eyes of the regulator, and the insurance company. For my experience flying an R22, allowing a no experience person to hover it is risky...

[treadigraph]

I note the BBC report seems to omit the word "instructor" which would rather spoil the image they are perhaps trying to convey of idiot amateur pilots letting their friends have a go.

That said, I'm surprised that a nascent helicopter pilot would be allowed to try hovering quite so early - is that normal?

[OvertHawk]

I note the BBC report seems to omit the word "instructor" which would rather spoil the image they are perhaps trying to convey of idiot amateur pilots letting their friends have a go.

That said, I'm surprised that a nascent helicopter pilot would be allowed to try hovering quite so early - is that normal?

It's normal for "trial lessons" or "experience flights" which are effectively pleasure flights with a shot of the controls rather than actual lessons as part of a syllabus.

They are often given as gifts to people who have no real expectation of going any further with the training.

But since they are "lessons" rather than pleasure flights they can be operated by flying schools rather than AOCs.

Trial lessons are a huge part of the economics of many flying schools and giving the "student" a good experience that they tell their friends about is very heavily emphasised.

[Hughes500]

It's normal for "trial lessons" or "experience flights" which are effectively pleasure flights with a shot of the controls rather than actual lessons as part of a syllabus.

They are often given as gifts to people who have no real expectation of going any further with the training.

But since they are "lessons" rather than pleasure flights they can be operated by flying schools rather than AOCs.

Trial lessons are a huge part of the economics of many flying schools and giving the "student" a good experience that they tell their friends about is very heavily emphasised.

Worse than that as a PPLH one can do a short introductory flight ( no hands on ) with a pax, the idea being to introduce someone to flying. Interestingly a short introductory flight has to be less than 1.5 hours. doesnt state if one can take pax or not !!!!!
If a an air experience flight ( aka trial lesson ) which is lesson 3 it is up to the instructor how much flying the " student " does

[[email protected]]

Pretty crappy level of instruction frankly..........

[Luther Sebastian]

As far as I was aware, if I’m not an instructor, the aircraft can’t have dual controls installed if the occupant of the left seat isn’t a rated pilot. As a PPL(H) I have taken people up, but I’m b******d if I’ll let them fly it!

[helicrazi]

As far as I was aware, if I’m not an instructor, the aircraft can’t have dual controls installed if the occupant of the left seat isn’t a rated pilot. As a PPL(H) I have taken people up, but I’m b******d if I’ll let them fly it!

Did it say the instructor was sat in the right? Must admit, haven't read it all.

[Luther Sebastian]

Did it say the instructor was sat in the right? Must admit, haven't read it all.

Good point, I might have misread Hughes500’s post.

[OvertHawk]

As far as I was aware, if I’m not an instructor, the aircraft can’t have dual controls installed if the occupant of the left seat isn’t a rated pilot. As a PPL(H) I have taken people up, but I’m b******d if I’ll let them fly it!

No UK rules about not having dual controls fitted.

There may be some club or syndicate rules but nothing from CAA.

[hargreaves99]

Pretty crappy level of instruction frankly..........

Well, until you have done trial lessons in an R22, I don't think it's fair to pass comment. If the student grabs the controls and doesn't let go (or does a large wrong control input), and you are near the ground, there is often very little you can do. And yes, you can brief them in the classroom and in the aircraft, but that often goes out of the window when the engine starts.

I have done hundreds of trial lessons and about 80% of people don't even say "I have control" when you give them control, despite briefing them beforehand about it.

Don't forget these people are not military school pilots, they are mostly just ordinary members of the public that have been given a 20 min/30 min trial lesson "experience" voucher as a present. Sometimes teenagers and grannies, often older people who have never been in a helicopter, and some that don't even drive a car!

[hargreaves99]

Good point, I might have misread Hughes500’s post.

It's irrelevant what seat the FI is in, there are no rules laid down by the CAA or Robinson. Some FIs do trial lessons from the right seat as it's easier to reach the carb heat and radio etc while flying

[Rho Tarbled]

Well, until you have done trial lessons in an R22, I don't think it's fair to pass comment. If the student grabs the controls and doesn't let go (or does a large wrong control input), and you are near the ground, there is often very little you can do. And yes, you can brief them in the classroom and in the aircraft, but that often goes out of the window when the engine starts.

I have done hundreds of trial lessons and about 80% of people don't even say "I have control" when you give them control, despite briefing them beforehand about it.

Don't forget these people are not military school pilots, they are mostly just ordinary members of the public that have been given a 20 min/30 min trial lesson "experience" voucher as a present. Sometimes teenagers and grannies, often older people who have never been in a helicopter, and some that don't even drive a car!
If you have gone from 15 feet down to hitting the ground when you as the instructor have the collective and pedals as well as being able to at least have some decent input on the cyclic then it is 'pretty crappy' no matter who is in the other seat.

[212man]

If you have gone from 15 feet down to hitting the ground when you as the instructor have the collective and pedals as well as being able to at least have some decent input on the cyclic then it is 'pretty crappy' no matter who is in the other seat.
Agreed

[[email protected]]

And the one time someone I worked with had this happen it was a staff college visit and he let a random staff officer have control in the 5' hover - it ended much the same way and was poor instruction.

[hargreaves99]

The report reads as though the FI had no control of the cyclic as the passenger/student was gripping it. I am sure it all happened rather quickly.

If you have gone from 15 feet down to hitting the ground when you as the instructor have the collective and pedals as well as being able to at least have some decent input on the cyclic then it is 'pretty crappy' no matter who is in the other seat.

[[email protected]]

With that horrid T-bar arrangement in the R22, you can still reach up to grab your side of the cyclic if you are in the RHS or LHS or grab the centre bar if you are in the LHS - no excuses.

[[email protected]]

The report states the passenger was in the RHS.

[hargreaves99]

With that horrid T-bar arrangement in the R22, you can still reach up to grab your side of the cyclic if you are in the RHS or LHS or grab the centre bar if you are in the LHS - no excuses.

you can reach the cyclic easily , but if the other person is stronger, you won't be able to move it.

[Wide Mouth Frog]

With that horrid T-bar arrangement in the R22, you can still reach up to grab your side of the cyclic if you are in the RHS or LHS or grab the centre bar if you are in the LHS - no excuses.
No there are no excuses, but there are explanations, and there is room for empathy. All non-military instructors will have served their time in these sort of flights. No qualification or selection required for the customer, and in 15 mins you have to form a view as to whether in the last 5 minutes you are going to give someone what they’ve paid for, ie. real experience of the challenges of hovering a helicopter.

I met nobody ever who could manage the cyclic alone in a 22 on their first try, and I had the privilege to fly with some really competent people who picked everything up really quickly. That means you’re always going to be having a wild ride, and let’s face it there is no other way to learn, any more than you can teach someone how to ride a bicycle in a you tube video.

There are rare cases where students actively do the wrong thing, and/or stop you as the instructor doing the right thing. I definitely had a couple of scary moments. The rarity of these sort of incidents (rollovers on trial lessons) could point to crappy instruction, or possibly to how everyone is to some extent riding their luck. Sometimes, as in this case, and in the case you quoted with the Staff Officer, it doesn’t work out. No biggie, no life changing injuries, and one destroyed helicopter. Embarrassing yes, but move along, nothing to see here. Spare a thought for the poor instructor probably near the beginning of his career, who will likely spend the next few months waking up in a cold sweat and wondering if he’s still got a job. If he has, then he’ll be a bit older and a bit wiser, and maybe grieve for his lost membership of the exclusive club of helicopter pilots that have never made a mistake.

[[email protected]]

you can reach the cyclic easily , but if the other person is stronger, you won't be able to move it.
Unless you are flying with Arnie and you are a 7-stone weakling I don't think that is true at all - adrenaline helps!

[[email protected]]

WMF - I have ended up in an R22 on its side in a field myself due to a last minute unexpected control input from a 'student' at the end of a flare recovery to the hover.

It was poor instruction on my part, not bad luck, and I have never fought shy of admitting that - acknowledging where you have f&&&ed up is a step on the road to becoming a better instructor.

If inexperienced instructors aren't capable of retaining control of the aircraft on trial lessons, then perhaps they shouldn't be doing them.

And you'll probably tell me this is the harsh reality of civilian flying instruction and that I was just fortunate to have put myself through the beasting that was Military Flying Training in the 80s as I didn't have to pay for it myself.

[Wide Mouth Frog]

Crab, I wouldn't dream of criticising you for that incident any more than I would criticise the gentleman from Welshpool. From a practical point of view any accident during an instructional flight is technically, and sometimes largely or even wholly the instructors fault. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge some role for chance in your fate when it's appropriate. Without the benefit of more detailed knowledge, I'm prepared to acknowledge the role of chance in the Welshpool incident, and knowing you by reputation only, I would grant you the same courtesy.

[helispotter]

I stumbled across this report of the loss of a Bell 47G2, VH-KHL, at Moorabbin in Australia back in 1989, and it reminded me of the R22 accident being discussed in this thread:

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1989/aair/aair198901526

Another trial instructional flight. Helicopter was placed in a hover and passenger was invited to attempt to control the helicopter by use of the anti-torque pedals and the cyclic control. The passenger overcontrolled the aircraft and pilot (who wasn't rated as an instructor) wasn't able to recover control in time. Both pilot and passenger were seriously injured according to the report. Hope they both fully recovered.

[topradio]

Perhaps all instructors should arm-wrestle their 'student' before each trial lesson. And if they loose the flight's off

[OvertHawk]

I think that the issue, certainly as regards "trial lessons" is one of time and adjustment.

As part of a PPL syllabus (or any other kind of ab-initio) the instructor will have time to get to know the student a little, will brief them several times and the initial flights will build up to hands-on hovering over a number of flights - with hovering taking place only when the instructor is comfortable and after the student will have had a certain amount of time to get used to being in the air and to handing over the controls.

For a trial lesson this is not the case. The instructor will likely have spent little or no time with the student - in some cases they've never met before they are loaded rotors running having been "briefed" by someone in the ops office.

The student will have had little or no time to get used to being in the air and the instructor will have little time to get the feel of the student or assess how they respond during control exchange.

For a 30 min trial lesson often advertised as including trying hovering, there is pressure on both the instructor and the student.

Is it a surprise when it goes wrong?

Yes the responsibility lies with the commander of the aircraft but i think in the case of trial lessons they are often being despatched with a piece of cheese that already has more holes in it than necessary or reasonable.

OH

[helimutt]

I met nobody ever who could manage the cyclic alone in a 22 on their first try, and I had the privilege to fly with some really competent people who picked everything up really quickly. That means you’re always going to be having a wild ride, and let’s face it there is no other way to learn, any more than you can teach someone how to ride a bicycle in a you tube video.


Ive actually met a couple of very competent non-pilots who easily managed the cyclic on the first try. Maybe even managing collective and feet pedals all separately too. All together at once? Ive met one person who managed it.

[The Nr Fairy]

Did a trial lesson with a gent whose day job was digging ditches in JCBs. He very quickly had all three controls for most of the 30 minute trial lesson, and had a half decent stab at a hover.

But if someone spends all day looking outside of their work environment and manipulating a remote bucket, I suppose it was to be expected.

Even so, I always had my hands and feet very close to the controls, and even with this chap,

[zzodr]

There sure as hell wasn't any trial flights going on when I learned to fly where you were invited to get on any controls in a hover. Only after leaving the pattern.

[Ascend Charlie]

On a trial flight, or even Effects of Controls in the hover, the first control to master is the pedals alone. If you cannot make it point at something and keep it there, you will never be able to hover.
Then they get collective alone. Work out how small a movement is needed to change, or hold, a height.
If the student is doing well on this, give them both, but ensure that the first thing they think about is MAKE IT POINT.
Bloggs will lose it many times and you will recover it.
Then the cyclic is demonstrated, using the tip of one finger to control the hover. Make sure Bloggs is looking outside, not at the cyclic. Stress how important it is to keep the picture FLAT and held at a particular spot in the windscreen. If it moves, fix it. Doesn't matter if he drifts while fixing it, the important item to learn here is not ground position, but ATTITUDE CONTROL.

When Bloggs is on all 3, the mantra is MAKE IT POINT! KEEP IT FLAT! Then fix the height.

Back in 1993, I was fortunate enough to be asked to take a rather well-known movie star for a lesson. He already held fixed-wing qualifications and owned his own warbird and jet. The upper air work was easy, as the chopper behaves like an airplane in forward flight. The fun began when we came back down for some hovering. He was getting better at the attitude control, but wasn't a Top Gun on his first go.

Subsequently he got his full licence and did his own chopper stunts in his films.

[[email protected]]

Have to disagree AC - cyclic first because everything stems from recognising, holding and recovering to the hover attitude.

Then collective to recognise height references, then pedals for heading

Single control first then cyclic and collective, then collective and pedals and finally all 3.

Lightly following through on whichever control/s the student is manipulating is where your hands and feet need to be

[Ascend Charlie]

Crab, when Bloggs loses it, starts to spin and then the attitude begins to wobble, the first thing to do is stop the spin.The secondary effect of pedal will further disturb the attitude, but once the spin stops, the attitude can be made flat again.

Then fix the height. If Bloggs jerks the lever, the secondary effects make him spin and change attitude. Giving him lever and cyclic is difficult because of the secondary effects of lever. Lever and pedals is the better way to build up.

Remember the principles of instruction:
Go from easy to difficult
From known to unknown

At the beginning, start with the easy ones, pedal alone and then collective alone. Confidence builders. Cyclic first will dishearten the student right from the start when they don't pick it up instantly. Everybody wants instant gratification. But nearly every student will get a confidence boost from working the pedals alone, then lever alone, then pedals and lever. When they are used to looking to the distance for the directional reference, and peripheral vision for height, they are prepared to look for the hover attitude.

When we went through air force training on Hueys, nobody mentioned a hover attitude - it was "Stop moving!" When I came back to choppers after years of instructing on jets, the method had changed to "hover attitude". Unconsciously, that was what we had eventually done, but hearing it said in the classroom was a light coming on - "Why didn't they say that in the first place?"