View Full Version : Skyborne, Leading Edge or someone else for flight training post ground school?
TayBee
7th Jan 2024, 18:41
Hi all,
I recently finished my ground school with LE and am considering where to go for the flight portion of my training in a couple of months.
I'd ideally like to retain eligibility for BA as I'm sitting on a high 90s average so can apply to their whitetail programme provided my training sections all take place in one of their prescribed schools - CAE don't let you train modularly, and L3's reputation makes me think they're not worth considering. This leaves LE or Skyborne (I know there is FTEJerez as well, but I want to be back in the UK for my MEIR, to be honest).
Does anyone have any input on whether either, both, or neither of those schools are a good idea for the flight training (and subsequent APS MCC)?
LE's turnover seems to exempt them from providing a cashflow from the last year; someone on here has misinterpreted deferred income as being a loss because my accountant friend said deferred income has nothing to do with loss or profit generation since training payments must be considered a liability until a student has graduated, but the cash at hand is a bit low and the lack of transparency makes even modular payments a bit of a gamble in the early stages. Any insider knowledge on this is welcome.
Conversely skyborne seems to be generating profit (correct me if I'm wrong as it could just be very creative accounting), but not sure if their contracts with Delta/Indigo will make me a second class citizen and I would find myself in an awkward position of my US visa expiring before I finish the required hours with them.
I am also open to the opinion of don't train with either, but I'm training off the back of an engineering degree and work so if I can I'd like to retain my BA whitetail rights as I hope I have a reasonable shot even though I am well aware there are other airlines out there, and frankly I'll take the first contract I get that offers me money to sit in a metal tube.
Any and all thoughts are appreciated.
Hi there just wanted to ask, how did you find LE’s theory ground school in regards to the quality of teaching etc ?
and when you mentjon L3 Harris’s reputation , could you tell me more about that? Is there something bad about them ?
I look to start my flying course with CAE, L3 or LE but I’m not sure yet.
Alex Whittingham
8th Jan 2024, 10:42
The requirements for a company to have its accounts audited, rather than providing the abbreviated accounts applicable to small companies (effectively just a balance sheet) are to make two out of the three thresholds two years in a row,
an annual turnover of more than £10.2 million
assets worth more than £5.1 million
50 or more employees on average
LE declare in their accounts that they exceeded the employee threshold two years in a row, and they are obviously nowhere near the net asset threshold. A quick calculation assuming about £80K excluding VAT per student means they would hit £10M turnover with about 125 integrated students a year. The fact that the directors have stated that they are exempt audit may mean that the actual numbers in training are less than implied in press releases or perhaps their revenue was below threshold in y/e 22 and above it in y/e 23 in which case the audit exemption would still apply.
Deferred income is what it says, income taken in advance that cannot be posted to P&L because the actual training has not been delivered in that accounting period and, as such, it represents a debt the company has to its customers at the accounting date. Profitability can be inferred from looking at the movements of the P&L account which say they had an aggregate loss of £6.6m at the end of March 22 and an aggregate loss of £9.6m at the end of March 23 = £3m loss in period.
What are your thoughts on CAE and Skybourne ? You seem very knowledgeable in this, I’d just like to know your take on their companies ?
WindyTurtle
8th Jan 2024, 10:51
in English, please? so LE are not in a financial pickle that's rumoured to be the case? :}
in English, please? so LE are not in a financial pickle that's rumoured to be the case? :}
LE are in more of a Pickle than the Head of Branston!
Your ‘mate’ above has obviously had a bit of theoretical advice about accountancy but I suggest IF he wants to NOT lose money then go to L3, Skyborne, Aeros or one of the other smaller private Commercial schools.
LE have spent all the students cash…..it’s not there.
TayBee
8th Jan 2024, 17:14
Hi there just wanted to ask, how did you find LE’s theory ground school in regards to the quality of teaching etc ?
and when you mentjon L3 Harris’s reputation , could you tell me more about that? Is there something bad about them ?
I look to start my flying course with CAE, L3 or LE but I’m not sure yet.
For what it's worth, the ground school experience I had at LE was better than I could have ever expected - obviously haven't been anywhere else but the instructors were all incredible and, whilst I like to think I would do fairly well anyway because I'm fairly academic off the back of my degree, I wouldn't have been in the high 90s without them.
This forum is littered with posts about L3 but tl;dr they acquired a premier flight school in about 2017 and proceeded to destroy it through a series of highly questionable strategic decisions.
This all being said, my knowledge about L3 is very dated now, so someone may come in and say actually they've changed. I somewhat doubt it though - there's something recent on these forums about L3 selling their flight training division; I haven't read it in great detail but that doesn't sound like a good thing.
I know people at CAE at the moment and they've been delayed by upwards of 6 months post ground school (or offered money to leave the course altogether) and the flying in Arizona is few and far between.
The lack of audited accounts from LE by virtue of them taking the small company exemptions (yet providing a strategic report which is not required for a small company, many questions) makes for confusing reading, but the increase in deferred income and a lack of proportionate increase in tangible assets or cash at hand is odd - as someone wrote above, it presumably means the money has been spent on things that are not converting into assets. It also raises eyebrows as when I was at ground school there were a lot of students - ca 10-20+ per class every month, which would render their turnover well above 10.2m, and they employ more staff than the small business exemption allows.
If you read Skyborne's accounts, they also have a high deferred income (10.2m as of 2022) which is higher than LE, but they have 26.5m in tangible assets - they presumably own their aircraft. Thus raising the question of how LE, with a comparable (8.6m) deferred income managed to acquire a similar amount of money and not convert it into something positive on the balance sheet - they have a grand total of around 2.3m in assets: a few buildings maybe?
Skyborne also do not take small company exemptions, so they have cashflow on their reports and allegedly turned a profit in 2022 - I haven't had an accountant read it in detail though and I am very much not qualified to read them in any educated level of detail so there is always the possibility of creative accounting.
TayBee
LE don’t own anything, it’s all
mortgaged to the hilt! Buildings are rented. Aircraft (4) are double
mortgaged. They squander students money left right and centre.
You are right……they DON’T convert anything to assets.
They must surely be another £3m plus for a loss this next year. Directors are clever, nieve or downright deceitful………or all of them as well as inept and stupid.
Heard their MD used to work for CAE/Airways etc back in the teens when it got sold. He probably got Dollar signs in his eyes and thought ‘anything they can do I can do better’……even though ive no experience running a company.
Skyborne is owned and backed I believe by a Billionaire from Monaco.
LE is backed by a box of Millionaire Shortcake Biscuits! ……….and their students’ money.
Ali10
10th Jan 2024, 16:35
For what it's worth, the ground school experience I had at LE was better than I could have ever expected - obviously haven't been anywhere else but the instructors were all incredible and, whilst I like to think I would do fairly well anyway because I'm fairly academic off the back of my degree, I wouldn't have been in the high 90s without them.
This forum is littered with posts about L3 but tl;dr they acquired a premier flight school in about 2017 and proceeded to destroy it through a series of highly questionable strategic decisions.
This all being said, my knowledge about L3 is very dated now, so someone may come in and say actually they've changed. I somewhat doubt it though - there's something recent on these forums about L3 selling their flight training division; I haven't read it in great detail but that doesn't sound like a good thing.
I know people at CAE at the moment and they've been delayed by upwards of 6 months post ground school (or offered money to leave the course altogether) and the flying in Arizona is few and far between.
The lack of audited accounts from LE by virtue of them taking the small company exemptions (yet providing a strategic report which is not required for a small company, many questions) makes for confusing reading, but the increase in deferred income and a lack of proportionate increase in tangible assets or cash at hand is odd - as someone wrote above, it presumably means the money has been spent on things that are not converting into assets. It also raises eyebrows as when I was at ground school there were a lot of students - ca 10-20+ per class every month, which would render their turnover well above 10.2m, and they employ more staff than the small business exemption allows.
If you read Skyborne's accounts, they also have a high deferred income (10.2m as of 2022) which is higher than LE, but they have 26.5m in tangible assets - they presumably own their aircraft. Thus raising the question of how LE, with a comparable (8.6m) deferred income managed to acquire a similar amount of money and not convert it into something positive on the balance sheet - they have a grand total of around 2.3m in assets: a few buildings maybe?
Skyborne also do not take small company exemptions, so they have cashflow on their reports and allegedly turned a profit in 2022 - I haven't had an accountant read it in detail though and I am very much not qualified to read them in any educated level of detail so there is always the possibility of creative accounting.
I am thinking of taking a similar route to yours. A modular route. However, I’m struggling to find a cheap way to build hours and gain a PPL. Do you mind if I ask where you obtained your PPL to start the Modular course ?
TayBee
11th Jan 2024, 00:46
I am thinking of taking a similar route to yours. A modular route. However, I’m struggling to find a cheap way to build hours and gain a PPL. Do you mind if I ask where you obtained your PPL to start the Modular course ?
Ping me a DM to remind me to give you the details of the slightly convoluted PPL route I took tomorrow - only reason I don't want to share publicly is because I'd rather not have too many datapoints to identify myself whilst talking about moving schools etc.!
Ali10
13th Jan 2024, 16:51
Ping me a DM to remind me to give you the details of the slightly convoluted PPL route I took tomorrow - only reason I don't want to share publicly is because I'd rather not have too many datapoints to identify myself whilst talking about moving schools etc.!
hi there, I sent you a dm.
LE are in more of a Pickle than the Head of Branston!
Your ‘mate’ above has obviously had a bit of theoretical advice about accountancy but I suggest IF he wants to NOT lose money then go to L3, Skyborne, Aeros or one of the other smaller private Commercial schools.
LE have spent all the students cash…..it’s not there.
LE increasing their fees, coupled with the lack of cash on the latest published balance sheet is not particularly encouraging if one is thinking of their LEAP integrated course.
Brian Pern
25th Jan 2024, 06:50
I'd ideally like to retain eligibility for BA as I'm sitting on a high 90s average so can apply to their whitetail programme provided my training sections all take place in one of their prescribed schools - ........
....
I am also open to the opinion of don't train with either, but I'm training off the back of an engineering degree and work so if I can I'd like to retain my BA whitetail rights as I hope I have a reasonable shot even though I am well aware there are other airlines out there, and frankly I'll take the first contract I get that offers me money to sit in a metal tube.
Any and all thoughts are appreciated.
Just a thought, knowing quite a few people at BA, some senior Capts and a few who are new FO's Not one of them went to a BA approved flight school, yes they all had other airline jobs before BA, but they were all Modular, or self improver as it used to be called. This did not stop them joining BA.
I would not get too hung up on joining BA at the expense of all other things. Alex Whittingham, has given you the biggest red flag you could need, he has no skin in this game, nothing to gain and a very honest and decent chap, I would personally run far far away from LE and find a good flight school elsewhere
Just a thought, knowing quite a few people at BA, some senior Capts and a few who are new FO's Not one of them went to a BA approved flight school, yes they all had other airline jobs before BA, but they were all Modular, or self improver as it used to be called. This did not stop them joining BA.
I would not get too hung up on joining BA at the expense of all other things. Alex Whittingham, has given you the biggest red flag you could need, he has no skin in this game, nothing to gain and a very honest and decent chap, I would personally run far far away from LE and find a good flight school elsewhere
Totally agree, Alex has given some brilliant insight into the often overlooked financials of flight schools, the ones in trouble love to really push the benefits of going vs the reality.
In my opinion BA care more about what’s on your training record than what school you went to, the ability to learn and be trained is what every airline is looking for with their low hours pilots.
If I had to choose an integrated school at the moment it would be Skyborne, nothing but good news coming out of there at present but there is nothing stopping you getting straight into BA as a modular student (I know first hand)
Wherever you go, focus on first series passes, over 85% in ground school with a good training report and you won’t have any issues.