Airbus A320 actual in flight double Hydraulic Failure

[comber1]

In late December 1998 a Caledonian A320 on route from Gatwick to Malaga suffered first a Green Hydraulic System failure followed two minutes later by a complete loss of the Blue System. A Mayday call was made and the A/C diverted to Brest and landed without further incident.
Since this incident there has been a complete cover up, no information has been allowed into the public domain. The U.K. CAA, French DGAC and Airbus have refused to comment, and there is nothing in the Archives.
WHY?

[magyar_flyer]

Interesting
Do you have any more specifics?

[TURIN]

Are we talking about British Caledonian or Caledonian Airways? I can't remember when one ceased to exist and the other began!

[JanetFlight]

98 Caledonian airways... Bcal already finished

[aox]

98 Caledonian airways... Bcal already finished

More detail: BCal bought by BA in 1988, then the name was used to rebrand British Airtours

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian_Airways_(1988)

[FlyingRoland]

Do you have first hand inside info?...

[A321drvr]

I heard about this first time about 10 years ago. Nothing solid, just rumors. Never bothered following it up, but now kinda curious again.

[Airbanda]

How could something like this be covered up? Surely it requires too many people for any sort of conspiracy.

Were such a failure to occur what would be the consequences? Presumably it can be replicated in a sim?

[rog747]

Caledonian Airways (CKT) which was the former KT British Airtours renamed to Caledonian in 1988 when BA bought BCAL were in 1995 now owned by Inspirations Holidays who had bought the charter airline from BA.
They only kept the L1011 Tristars and DC-10's, with the Boeing 757 and 737 all going back to BA or Lessors.

They then ordered 3 brand new A320 with V2500's (from Kawasaki Leasing) for 1995 delivery, then took another 3 (1992 build) ex Dragonair in 1998.
Fleet was G-BVYA plus YB YC YD YF YG
All to JMC Air in 2000.

[aox]

They only kept the L1011 Tristars and DC-10's, with the Boeing 757 and 737 all going back to BA or Lessors.
All to JMC Air in 2000.

Sorry to digress a bit more from thread subject, but is that entirely correct? I flew as passenger from Gatwick to Houston and back in 1991 with BA. This was rumoured to have been a former British Caledonian route, and was still using the DC 10

A search now suggests BA continued with most of the DC 10s until 1999 (maybe one to Caledonian in 1993 and came back), the last sold 2001

https://simpleflying.com/british-airways-dc-10s/
MC DONNELL - DOUGLAS DC - 10 - British Airways (http://www.taxiways.de/DC-10/D10operator/British.html)
https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/British%20Airways-history-dc10.htm
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=574847

[QA1]

There are documented cases of green system leaking fluid below 1,500’ resulting in the under carriage not retracting. See here for an explanation and subsequent service bulletin:

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/themes/mh_newsdesk/documents/archives/a320-dual-hydraulic-loss.pdf

[Troy McClure]

Were such a failure to occur what would be the consequences? Presumably it can be replicated in a sim?

Loss of autopilot, alternate law, loss of ailerons, ‘half’ the elevator, some spoilers, manual gear extension then direct law, slow flaps, no slats, flap 3 landing, only one reverser, alternate brakes. Main consideration is landing distance.

Replicable and trained for.

[lurkio]

Don’t forget autothrust off for the approach.

[TURIN]

I heard about this first time about 10 years ago. Nothing solid, just rumors. Never bothered following it up, but now kinda curious again.
Sounds like this is a case of Chinese whispers, unless the OP was on the aircraft.

[rog747]

Sorry to digress a bit more from thread subject, but is that entirely correct? I flew as passenger from Gatwick to Houston and back in 1991 with BA. This was rumoured to have been a former British Caledonian route, and was still using the DC 10
A search now suggests BA continued with most of the DC 10s until 1999 (maybe one to Caledonian in 1993 and came back), the last sold 2001



The BA, British Airtours, BCAL, BCAL Charter, and Caledonian Airways (1988) history is quite a topic to get one's head around LOL.

BA had bought BCAL in 1988 (who had the DC-10 30 fleet, and had also the 2 BCAL Charter DC-10 10 series).
BA inherited and kept the DC-10 30's, and the -10 series (bought by BCAL ex Laker in 1982 for holiday charters in a tie up with Rank) were already moved on in 1986 to become Cal Air International, which was renamed in 1988 as Novair International, because BA had renamed their own charter airline British Airtours (KT) to Caledonian Airways (CKT) also in 1988.

The 'new' Caledonian Airways CKT (owned by BA) inherited the old KT fleet of L1011's, a 747, and 737's.
The sole 747 flew for both CKT and BA then it was sold to Virgin in 1990.
CKT soon expanded with new, and ex BA and AE 757-200's and added more 737-200's.
They also had entered the long haul holiday market to Banjul, Mombasa, Goa, The Maldives, Orlando, LAX, Mexico, and to the Caribbean so they obtained from BA on lease a couple of the ex BCAL DC-10 30's, plus leased in some others from other airlines, such as G-GOKT G-LYON G-BWIN and OO-LRM.

in 1995 BA had sold Caledonian to the Inspirations Holiday Group, and the carrier was later transformed along with Flying Colours as JMC Air as part of Thomas Cook airline grouping in 2000.
It was under the Inspirations Holiday Group that the 3 new Airbus A320's were leased by CKT (which is the subject of this Thread)


Yes LGW-HOU was a BCAL route flown by the DC-10 and the 747.

[comber1]

I was the captain of the A320 when this incident occurred. A very early morning (0630ish) departure from LGW in late December, the weather was wet and very windy. During the climb the Cabin Manager reported slight vibration in the area of mid cabin on a couple of occasions There were no adverse indications in the flight deck but we put the vibration down to POSSIBLE icing in the A/C units as it was raining on departure and close to zero degrees,
About 30 minutes into the cruise we had a Green system hydraulic warning, loss of pressure due to fluid loss .
R/T call to ATC for a return to STN decision made as strong X wind at LGW. As we turned and descended to a new flight level, the Blue system loss of pressure warning came on due to loss of fluid.
Mayday, and immediate turn and descent to Brest, ATC very good total priority.
For those of you familiar with the Sim Ex let me advise you, the failure is done electronically, however in the A/C it’s different, the next thing indicated was the Yellow system pressure dropping… it then stabilised!! (Who thought about a coastal ditching for a few seconds)?
Added problem the A/C was very heavy… tanking, no slats on sel flap one, stall speed then above flap two limit.
Cabin crew were excellent breakfasts under seat, full demo for Brace, as LGW told Brest after our dep R/W inspection hole found in R/W and could have damaged tyre. Which then burst, no tyre pressure indicators in those days
On landing at Brest, pax on buses from runway A/C moved to maintenance pan, security came on board and on instructions from Airbus, we were asked to leave the A/C.
In the early hours of that morning the A/C was on maintenance, hydraulic rigs used on Blue system, the engineers concluded that the air pressure relief valve on the Blue pump failed.. air in system… vibration.. I think the original Blue pump was replaced, and that was “lost in transit” I was told. The Green pipe sheared first, located on a small panel on the forward left bulkhead in the undercarriage bay… where just several cm away on the same panel was a blue system pipe! (Vibration!) The Blue system pipe sheared at the Blue Pump outlet.
To my knowledge there has been no information regarding this incident, which was reported correctly AND the ECAM info was photographed by my excellent F/O.
Why is it not Archived… there has been no information from Airbus.
At one point for a few seconds I would have loved a Hudson River!

[cats_five]

What was the G-reg?

[krismiler]

Aside from a total loss, losing the Green and Yellow systems is the worst case. The Blue system gives very limited services and it’s a serious emergency if that’s all you’re left with.

The loss of a single system puts additional strain on the others and whilst this shouldn’t be a problem, I prefer not to test capabilities to their limits.

I’ve had two Blue system failures on the baby bus, both due to pump failure which were a big deal. Luckily never a multiple one.

[comber1]

The situation we were in on arrival at Brest was complicated by the message relayed from LGW ATC that following our departure the runway was closed while a temporary repair was carried out on a hole. The problem was, without TPI we didn’t know the state of the wheels, but a damaged tyre going into the undercarriage bay might have damaged the hydraulic pipes. We decided to lower the gear early in the hold to get an ATC visual, (now in Direct Law) they reported back that we still had tyres, but couldn’t advise as to their condition!
We held just long enough for the pax to be briefed and cabin secured.
Luckily on landing, tyres and wheels ok.

[Bogner]

Weird that the AAIB wasn’t involved in some capacity. Have you tried contacting them, or BEA, for more information?

What was the exact date and reg?

[comber1]

I don’t have access to my Log Book at present, but I think these details are accurate. The A/C was a Caledonian A320. Reg G-BVYA call sign
CKT5118.
The incident took place in the morning of 30th December 1998 on route from EGKK-LEMG.
I have used the official request procedure for information from the CAA Archives and AAIB.
I have also asked a friend who works at the CAA as a Flt Ops inspector, to try and find out what happened to my paperwork and the results of any investigation. No evidence!
All I have been told by the AAIB is that any information requested on this incident should come from the French DGCA as we were in French airspace!

[TigerHeavy]

I'm curious as to what authority Airbus had to request that you leave the aircraft. Also did FLS engineering not attend in Brest for a look see? Very strange.

[rog747]

I can only add that G-BVYA was a new build in 1992 from Airbus to Caledonian Airways as first customer in 1995.
(first of 3, all built in 1992) and leased from Kawasaki Leasing

[Less Hair]

Today this aircraft is registered and "stored" in Iran:

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/airbus-a320-200-ep-apf-iran-aseman-airlines/38q0z3

[Epsomdog]

Very slightly off topic, I know.

A few years ago we had a 320 return to LHR with Yellow and Blue systems Low Qty Ecam messages. Followed by a Green system Low Qty message on approach!
I was the first LAE on board and noticed one of the SDAC cb’s popped (can’t remember if it was 1 or 2), once reset the ECAM cleared! We then selected the Hyd Sys page and pulled the offending cb again and watched all of the Hyd Qty indicators drop to the bottom of the green range! Any hydraulic demand would then cause the indicators to drop into the amber low qty range, hence Green low qty on gear down.
The crew were so pre occupied with flying the aircraft in busy airspace, dealing with ECAM and QRH action, they simply overlooked checking behind them. That’s not a criticism at all, I can fully understand how that might happen.
It was one of the easiest Hydraulic fixes I ever had! It took some time to verify the system again but after engine runs etc QA were satisfied. The cb remained closed throughout, so we think it may have caught during the crew change at LHR.

[comber1]

Coincidentally I flew that A/C on its delivery flight from Toulouse to LGW. Small problem with the paint job… “Caledonian” was in Yellow.

FLS turned up later during the day on the recovery flight after local engineers had finished, We stayed overnight to fly it back to LGW, on finals guess what. “Gear Down” ECAM warning “Green System” low quantity low pressure!!

[ZeBedie]

The CAA are very secretive about MORs. Very few people are allowed access, which sort of defeats the whole point of the MOR system.

[Icare9]

Is this just a "silver anniversary" thing or is there a real point 25 years later about an airframe no longer flying?
Is someone trying to smear Airbus as a steer away from 737-Max-9?
Seems kinda strange to pop up so long after the event

[atakacs]

Is this just a "silver anniversary" thing or is there a real point 25 years later about an airframe no longer flying?
Is someone trying to smear Airbus as a steer away from 737-Max-9?
Seems kinda strange to pop up so long after the event
Well 25y after the fact it seems indeed an interesting incident and an interesting "silence" from the usual suspects.

[cats_five]

Is this just a "silver anniversary" thing or is there a real point 25 years later about an airframe no longer flying?
Is someone trying to smear Airbus as a steer away from 737-Max-9?
Seems kinda strange to pop up so long after the event

My thoughts as well.

[hoistop]

Strange that this was brought up now, after so many years. These are very old stories and not really relevant today. My airline also had one A-320 dual hydraulic sys. loss in late eighties (on one of the first A-320 actually), that resulted in emergency landing in LGW IIRC, but for different reason than above. (Problem with BLU HYD reservoir pressurisation took out the Blue system, then came loss of Yellow sys due to burst pipe (press transducer) near the engine pump, followed by Green sys overheating as PTU was running madly and there was no instructions in ECAM checklist (yet) to switch it OFF immediatelly. Crew, assisted with A-320 maint. technician that happened to be seating in the cockpit, figured it out quickly and killed the PTU in time.) But things that caused that were rectified long ago thru design changes. Working on those low S/N was a maintenance nightmare then, as there were endless problems, fake warnings and also real failures, as both Airbus and operators/maintenance were on steep learning curves. But today A-320 is a sturdy, proven, reliable workhorse I have not even a split second of doubt boarding it. But I did have a second of hesitation when boarding a MAX a few weeks ago.