Talking picture 4pm 1965 evaluation of jumping jets

[NutLoose]

It’s only a 10 min show, but focuses on the evaluation of probably the Kestrel or Harrier.

[CAEBr]

Thanks for the headsup Nutty, hadn't seen that before.

[RAFEngO74to09]

For those not in the UK, there's this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E3HY0EOnSs

[Herod]

Well worth the watching

[Herod]

Having just found a quote, excuse two postings.

Prior to the first flight, Hooker is claimed to have asked of Camm "I suppose you are going to do some conventional flying first Sydney?" and Camm replied "What for?" Hooker said "Well you know, just to make sure the aeroplane is a nice aeroplane, and everything under control." Camm replied, "Oh, Hawker aeroplanes are always beautiful, nothing wrong with a Hawker aeroplane, not going to bother with that. Vertical first time".

[stilton]

Well worth the watching

Certainly was

I do miss John Farley’s expert opinions on the Harrier in this forum, what an extraordinary person and pilot he was, and always a delight to correspond with

[Brewster Buffalo]

Well worth the watching

Yes indeed...thanks to the OP for highlighting it.. and RAFEngO74to09 for the You Tube link. Notable that the US Army were part of the unit...
Be interesting to read the thoughts about the aircraft from the non-RAF pilots...

[X767]

I was on 54 Sqn ( Hunters) at West Raynham when these trials were carried out. Living in MQ's at Bircham Newton meant that I met and socialised with many of the development pilots during their evaluation training.

It was a real example of international association in a project that would produce an amazing VTOL fighter that was the Harrier .

[typerated]

It was a real example of international association in a project that would produce an amazing VTOL fighter that was the Harrier .

I'm not disagreeing but it is interesting
the USAF went for the A-10
US ARMY went for (eventually) Apache
and the Luftwaffe went for the armed Alpha Jet.
No other Air Force apart from the RAF bought the Harrier

[BEagle]

No other Air Force apart from the RAF bought the Harrier

Quite a few navies did though - and of course the US Marine Corps!

[typerated]

Quite a few navies did though - and of course the US Marine Corps!
Totally - but it is a very different case afloat.
But as a land based CAS machine it was lets say unfanicied.

[NutLoose]

This may amuse you. From Wiki

Gerhard "Gerd" Barkhorn (20 March 1919 – 11 January 1983) was a German military aviator who was a renowned wing commander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_commander_(rank)) in the Luftwaffe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe) during World War II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II). As a fighter ace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_ace), he was the second most successful fighter pilot of all time after fellow pilot Erich Hartmann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann). Other than Hartmann, Barkhorn is the only fighter ace to ever exceed 300 claimed victories.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Barkhorn#cite_note-FOOTNOTEZabecki201419,_479-1) Following World War II, he became a high-ranking officer in the German Air Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Air_Force) of the Federal Republic of Germany

​​​​​​​In 1964, Barkhorn was posted to the staff of Luftwaffen-Erprobungskommando (Air Force Test Command).[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Barkhorn#cite_note-FOOTNOTEStockert2012306-6) From October 1964 until November 1965, Barkhorn headed the six-man Bundesluftwaffe contingent of the Tripartite Kestrel Evaluation Squadron at RAF West Raynham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_West_Raynham), Norfolk, England. The squadron's mission was to evaluate the military capabilities of the V/STOL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/STOL) Kestrel, the Hawker Siddeley P.1127 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_P.1127) and forerunner of the Hawker Siddeley Harrier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Harrier) V/STOL aircraft. The squadron consisted of military pilots and ground staff from three nations: Britain, USA and West Germany. In addition to being one of the squadron pilots, Barkhorn also served as one of the squadron's two deputy commanders. During one mission on 13 October 1963, he crash-landed a Hawker Siddeley Kestrel FGA.1, XS689 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_military_aircraft_serials), No. 9, at RAF West Raynham, when he apparently cut thrust one meter above ground, wiping out the undercarriage. A Luftwaffe Experte with 301 aerial victories, he is said to have commented, "Drei hundert und zwei [302]!" as he was helped from the jet. At the conclusion of the evaluation, Barkhorn then accompanied the American contingent to the U.S., where he assisted in that nation's continuing trials of six of the Kestrels that had been shipped to the U.S. and renamed the XV-6A.[112] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Barkhorn#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarlin2017xvi,_8,_36,_48,_73%E2%80%9374,_87,_88,_99% E2%80%93100,_102-117)

[Brewster Buffalo]

Couple of queries from the film

".....can fly above the speed of sound..." commentary (17 secs) Really?

Is it a camera at the nose tip? 1m 52secs...for a close up...

[longer ron]

Couple of queries from the film

".....can fly above the speed of sound..." commentary (17 secs) Really?

Is it a camera at the nose tip? 1m 52secs...for a close up...

In a dive :)

And Yes nose mounted camera with an 'Eyelid' to protect the lens/cover

[NutLoose]

Camera or laser?

there was plans for a supersonic Harrier version but the plenum burning reheat hadn’t been fully solved iirc before they dropped the version

[SLXOwft]

This may amuse you. From Wiki
During one mission on 13 October 1963, he crash-landed a Hawker Siddeley Kestrel FGA.1, XS689 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_military_aircraft_serials), No. 9, at RAF West Raynham, when he apparently cut thrust one meter above ground, wiping out the undercarriage. A Luftwaffe Experte with 301 aerial victories, he is said to have commented, "Drei hundert und zwei [302]!" as he was helped from the jet.


The kill was unconfirmed as it only resulted in damage. XS689 survived to be one of the XV-6As used for trials in the US, last heard of hanging from the ceiling at Udvar-Hazy Center of NASM, Chantilly, Virginia, it is still listed as a currently undisplayed asset by the Smithsonian.

PS In the U-tyoob version the film for the camera is shown being loaded at c. 1:45

[Ninthace]

I spent some time in a transonic wind tunnel in the 60s working with the team persuading underwing stores to depart downwards rather than up and over the wing. That meant loose articles heading downstream, where dwelt some vanes and a mighty wooden fan.
Rumour had it that pilots took a dim view bombs and such formating with their head while the little propeller wound up the internal gubbins :=

[BEagle]

there was plans for a supersonic Harrier version but the plenum burning reheat hadn’t been fully solved iirc before they dropped the version

Yes, the P.1150. However, Hawker thought that it was too small to meet the NATO spec requirements, so developed it further into the P.1154 proposal. RN and RAF bickering delayed that until it was eventually binned by the Wilson government along with the HS681 (good riddance) and tragically the TSR-2.

[mike1964]

I believe the US Army not taking the Kestrel/Harrier project any further was as much a function of US inter-service politics as anything else. Around that time the US Army's ambitions to fly fixed-wing aircraft operationally were firmly quashed.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Yes, the P.1150. However, Hawker thought that it was too small to meet the NATO spec requirements, so developed it further into the P.1154 proposal. RN and RAF bickering delayed that until it was eventually binned by the Wilson government along with the HS681 (good riddance) and tragically the TSR-2.


For comparison the

Kestrel v P1154 -

wing span 23 ft v 36 ft

length 42.5 ft v 58.5 ft

auw 14,000lb v 48,000lb

By 1965 some small progress had been made in constructing the first P1154 prototype however the Phantom had been in service with the US Navy for 4 years so the P1154 was binned and Phantoms bought instead..