Jetstar and taxi lights

[ACMS]

So, head to head with a Jetstar A320 the other day, I turned our taxi and turnoff lights off out of courtesy but they didn’t. After I commented they said “ we’re not allowed to turn them off”

what?

[ManillaChillaDilla]

So, head to head with a Jetstar A320 the other day, I turned our taxi and turnoff lights off out of courtesy but they didn’t. After I commented they said “ we’re not allowed to turn them off”

what?
Thats rubbish. Airmanship always comes first.

That would be the younger generation at work no doubt.

MCD

[pinkpanther1]

Thats rubbish. Airmanship always comes first.

That would be the younger generation at work no doubt.

MCD

Ok Boomer.

[No Idea Either]

I agree with MCD, s/he/they was probably just a singular f#ckw!t. In my experience the JQ pilots turn the taxi light off when pointing straight at someone else……..now QF on the other hand……..but let’s not go there.

[SandyPalms]

I agree with MCD, s/he/they was probably just a singular f#ckw!t. In my experience the JQ pilots turn the taxi light off when pointing straight at someone else……..now QF on the other hand……..but let’s not go there.
Man, I love this place. Here we have a thread about a JQ aircraft that didnt turn off his Taxi light (let's not talk about how f@#kin precious you have to be to start a pprune thread about it), I guess that means there is evidence of that fact, but it takes 2 posts for some d#ckhead to decide if actually QF that's the problem. What a joke this place is.

[das Uber Soldat]

Man, I love this place. Here we have a thread about a JQ aircraft that didnt turn off his Taxi light (let's not talk about how f@#kin precious you have to be to start a pprune thread about it), I guess that means there is evidence of that fact, but it takes 2 posts for some d#ckhead to decide if actually QF that's the problem. What a joke this place is.
Everything ok at home little buddy? Might be time for a lie down.

Back on topic, there is no SOP that prevents you from turning off the taxi lights as a courtesy to other aircraft. Every arrival those same lights are turned off during taxi before turning onto the bay so as to not blind the marshaller.

[brokenagain]

but it takes 2 posts for some d#ckhead to decide if actually QF that's the problem.

It’s a fair point though? Why do Qantas taxi around with the wing inspection lights on when nobody else does blinding everybody they taxi past?

[SandyPalms]

Couldn't you guess that it's SOP?

[MikeHatter732]

C'mon guys dont be silly. They need the wing lights on so they can check the wings for ice before takeoff (including when its midday and the sun is out), because it is very hard to operate in the wild climate of Australia and only QF pilots can do it well.

[Dirty Lungs]

Who knows?

Could have been a line check. Could have been a line check with a "notable" checker. Could have been a training flight and they wanted to keep it SOP as an example. Could have been a former employee of YOUR airline and wanted poke you in the eye!

The QF wing light thing IS a bit of an eye roll though. They are the only airline I'm seen anywhere in the world that does that does that reliably, everywhere!

[Capt Fathom]

All airlines have their own policies which the crew are required to follow. No point shooting the messenger.
If it somehow affects the safety of your flight, submit a report through your safety department.

[No Idea Either]

I knew I shouldn’t have said it, but I couldn’t help myself……….:=

[ACMS]

Not being precious dear boy, just wondering if they do indeed prohibit courtesy and common sense in their flight decks is all. Chill

[AviatoR21]

You won’t find courtesy or common sense on here unfortunately. The fact that you’ve had to ask about taxi lights on an online forum is alarming. At what point do we stop at….?

[Deano969]

The VA boys using too much too much thrust leaving the gates at SYD

[Lookleft]

Forget the head to head, what about all the Jetstar pilots who will turn on all the nose gear lights before commencing the turn from a power out bay. It does my head in that there is no thought or consideration for what they are doing. Then there are the dimwits who will turn off the APU when the temperature is going to be 30+.:ugh:

[sunnySA]

All airlines have their own policies which the crew are required to follow. No point shooting the messenger.
If it somehow affects the safety of your flight, submit a report through your safety department.
Perhaps the airlines were so used to flying through TIBA airspace (all lights on)

[The The]

Wing light use is a recommendation by IFALPA, policy for QF.

https://www.ifalpa.org/publications/library/use-of-external-lights-to-mitgate-runway-incursion-risk--1454

[rodney rude]

25 ish years ago, I was driving 146s in and out of Brisbane regularly. Every day we were having to power off behind QF aircraft as we kept catching them. I asked a QF buddy - I said "mate, we in the 146 have trouble outrunnin' a Caribou, why are we catching you guys all the time?" His answer - beacuse QF is expanding rapidly right now, lots of low-ish time F/Os now flying and a trend of stuffed up approaches has developed, so QF has limited F/O's to 230kts below 10K." Now before everyone screams bull****, or that I'm smokin some of Heizenberg's finest - that is just what he told me - whether it's true or not, well I'll trust my buddy.

So on one hand - praise to QF for its proactive approach to an issue - BUT - SOPs can't just be in isolation, how did that particular SOP (if real) effect other aircraft and ATC's traffic flow plan? Badly. Just like the wing inspec lights. Someone said earlier about high beam when taxying, file a safety report. Well about 7 years ago I DID file both internal and external reports about QF inspec lights as I was sick of being blinded in YSSY. Clearly those reports achieved sweet FA.

I'm a big believer in solid SOPs - you don't have to like 'em, you just have to follow 'em. That will keep you out of trouble. So QF with the inspec lights - well its SOP. Taxy lights blinding other pilots - let's use common sense and courtesy here and leave the taxy light blinding to China where a welder's mask is standard issue. (go taxy round Chinese airports if you're in a rush to need the Fred Hollows foundation)

[ANCDU]

Forget the head to head, what about all the Jetstar pilots who will turn on all the nose gear lights before commencing the turn from a power out bay. It does my head

Although I’m not aware of Jetstar SOP, this is often an SOP brought about as a signal to the ground grew that the aircraft is about to commence moving under its own power. ( a beacon doesn’t signal this) It’s usually for the safety of ground crew and to mitigates a risk if the dispatcher/ engineer is inadvertently left connected.

[TURIN]

Although I’m not aware of Jetstar SOP, this is often an SOP brought about as a signal to the ground grew that the aircraft is about to commence moving under its own power. ( a beacon doesn’t signal this) It’s usually for the safety of ground crew and to mitigates a risk if the dispatcher/ engineer is inadvertently left connected.
This!
It has saved me from being run over more than once. Even while still plugged in. 😳

[soseg]

It’s a fair point though? Why do Qantas taxi around with the wing inspection lights on when nobody else does blinding everybody they taxi past?

Its our middle finger salute to you peasants

[pinkpanther1]

This is genuinely one of the most pathetic threads I think I've read on Pprune. We're arguing over lights and attaching some sort of superiority complex to it? God help us all :rolleyes:

[LostWanderer]

This is genuinely one of the most pathetic threads I think I've read on Pprune. We're arguing over lights and attaching some sort of superiority complex to it? God help us all :rolleyes:

"mY AiRlinE DoEs LiTes BeTtEr ThAn YoUrZ LOL" Sometimes makes you wonder about the mental stability of some pilots.

[SHVC]

Not being precious dear boy, just wondering if they do indeed prohibit courtesy and common sense in their flight decks is all. Chill

There is no chill, light remain on. With the threat of 50 penalty point for not submitting the flight plan after each flight as it’s a strict liability offense. I’m not messing around with the lights outside of SOP I’d get the sack.

[Ollie Onion]

To be fair to the crew there was an SOP ‘clarification’ about five years ago telling pilots that taxi lights should NOT be turned off for oncoming traffic. I choose to ignore that but as always there will be people out there so **** scared of a telling off they apply every edict to the letter.

[framer]

With the threat of 50 penalty point for not submitting the flight plan after each flight as it’s a strict liability offense. I’m not messing around with the lights outside of SOP I’d get the sack.
Lol that’s funny if you’re trolling, and funny if you’re not. Well done :)

[Koan]

Who knows?

Could have been a line check. Could have been a line check with a "notable" checker. Could have been a training flight and they wanted to keep it SOP as an example. Could have been a former employee of YOUR airline and wanted poke you in the eye!

The QF wing light thing IS a bit of an eye roll though. They are the only airline I'm seen anywhere in the world that does that does that reliably, everywhere!

”notable” checkers, in an other word bullies.
I used to tremble before them but I learned to tell them to shut up, just did it the other day
Honestly I do not know of one incident a pilot was violated or disciplined for minor errors or deviations from SOP as long as conducted within the means of safety.
Not blinding other flights cockpits is just airmanship.

It helps to not give a throw about getting sacked anymore.

[No Idea Either]

Thanks Mr Onion for injecting some clarity into this ‘debate.’ As a matter of interest, is it SOP to taxi into the bridge with the lights on, or are they at least turned off here to avoid ‘blinding’ the ground staff. Having said that though, many maggot taxi lights are useless anyway except for the newer LED ones.

[SHVC]

Thanks Mr Onion for injecting some clarity into this ‘debate.’ As a matter of interest, is it SOP to taxi into the bridge with the lights on, or are they at least turned off here to avoid ‘blinding’ the ground staff. Having said that though, many maggot taxi lights are useless anyway except for the newer LED ones.

It’s hard to blind the ground staff, they’re never there.

[LostontheLOC]

This is genuinely one of the most pathetic threads I think I've read on Pprune. We're arguing over lights and attaching some sort of superiority complex to it? God help us all :rolleyes:

This is one of these "BACK IN ANSETT" type threads...

[ACMS]

To be fair to the crew there was an SOP ‘clarification’ about five years ago telling pilots that taxi lights should NOT be turned off for oncoming traffic. I choose to ignore that but as always there will be people out there so **** scared of a telling off they apply every edict to the letter.

finally an answer to my question. Thanks Ollie

[neville_nobody]

To be fair to the crew there was an SOP ‘clarification’ about five years ago telling pilots that taxi lights should NOT be turned off for oncoming traffic. I choose to ignore that but as always there will be people out there so **** scared of a telling off they apply every edict to the letter.

Well if they have put it in writing that's what they want you are going to have a hard time going against it. You can't really argue that you are the arbiter of SOPs. If people want an argument give them the managers phone number and make them responsible for the company's stupidity. Same could be said about the Mainline QF lights policy. I have had several safety incidents due the lights policy but nothing changes despite safety reports. There will need to be an taxi accident before that changes. By then the moron who implemented would have taken his money and left. They can argue it is recommended all they like but it creates a safety threat to all other aircraft around them, especially so on a dark rainy night.

[KRUSTY 34]

It’s a fair point though? Why do Qantas taxi around with the wing inspection lights on when nobody else does blinding everybody they taxi past?

Yeah, that one always puzzled me!

[A320 Flyer]

Yeah, that one always puzzled me!

It’s the standard operating procedure

[dejapoo]

”notable” checkers, in an other word bullies.
I used to tremble before them but I learned to tell them to shut up, just did it the other day
Honestly I do not know of one incident a pilot was violated or disciplined for minor errors or deviations from SOP as long as conducted within the means of safety.
Not blinding other flights cockpits is just airmanship.

It helps to not give a throw about getting sacked anymore.

Standard blue shirt behaviour??

[No Idea Either]

It’s hard to blind the ground staff, they’re never there.
:D:D:D

[chookcooker]

Taxi lights have never bothered me in the slightest. Fck some of you lot are precious. Touch grass. Get a life. No wonder divorce rates are high in our occupation.

[cLeArIcE]

It’s hard to blind the ground staff, they’re never there.
Hahahaha....you owe me a keyboard sir.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Taxi lights have never bothered me in the slightest. Fck some of you lot are precious. Touch grass. Get a life. No wonder divorce rates are high in our occupation.

Yes, but the wing inspection lights! The wing inspection lights! Won’t someone think of the children?

[StudentInDebt]

SOP for lights which had to be “clarified”. I thought the recent comment on overthinking take-off line up allowances exemplified the austronaught approach to aviation, but this sums it up much more completely.

[vegassun]

Yes, but the wing inspection lights! The wing inspection lights! Won’t someone think of the children?

Niccccccccccce! Wrapping yourself in "the children" flag always works!

Oh, and the guy that leaves taxi lights on/blinding opposite direction ac probably says, "what does The Book say" a minimum of 30 times per leg. He's the same guy who will turn engine AI on and off repeatedly whilst flying in cloud at +11, +10, +11, +10 (instead of just leaving them on after about the 3rd time).

[Global Aviator]

There are some glaring instances of zero situational awareness.

One place that used to give me the ****es was Hong Kong, with the cargo and private lads holding on opposite sides of 25L/07R at J1/K1 etc. Cleared for take off and the hands go straight up to all lights on, ok not so bad during the day but at night! Hey champ how about holding off on blinding the other crew until you’ve turned the nose a little.

One funny was a Japan airlines 787, they’d left the landing lights on a little longer than usual, I was taxying opposite way and fark those leds are bright, asked them to turn the lights off and got an apology and lights off.

Common sense and situational awareness are certainly lacking in some! I’m pretty sure every SOP has a disclaimer or the likes of, ok it’s been to long but ya don’t just blindly follow SOPs in every instance.

[VHOED191006]

Yes, but the wing inspection lights! The wing inspection lights! Won’t someone think of the children?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of the wing inspection lights to increase the visibility of the aircraft to surrounding traffic? Sounds like it's doing its job, perhaps a bit too much. Of course, if it's causing more issues than help on the ground, then perhaps it should be limited to takeoffs and landings only?

[ACMS]

There are some glaring instances of zero situational awareness.

One place that used to give me the ****es was Hong Kong, with the cargo and private lads holding on opposite sides of 25L/07R at J1/K1 etc. Cleared for take off and the hands go straight up to all lights on, ok not so bad during the day but at night! Hey champ how about holding off on blinding the other crew until you’ve turned the nose a little.

One funny was a Japan airlines 787, they’d left the landing lights on a little longer than usual, I was taxying opposite way and fark those leds are bright, asked them to turn the lights off and got an apology and lights off.

Common sense and situational awareness are certainly lacking in some! I’m pretty sure every SOP has a disclaimer or the likes of, ok it’s been to long but ya don’t just blindly follow SOPs in every instance.

yes VHHH was a particular pain especially at night.

[mikewil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of the wing inspection lights to increase the visibility of the aircraft to surrounding traffic? Sounds like it's doing its job, perhaps a bit too much. Of course, if it's causing more issues than help on the ground, then perhaps it should be limited to takeoffs and landings only?

Exactly, with this "all or nothing" attitude to lighting, it's a wonder why they don't just leave the strobes on at all times as well...

[morno]

This is such an austronaut thread

[SHVC]

This thread is almost as long as the JQ uniform trials. No end in sight to both.

[neville_nobody]

This is such an austronaut thread

It just typifies the frustration of the Australian operating environment.

[cloudsurfng]

Don’t look at the light

find a hobby outside flying which doesn’t include prune. It’s pretty farkin simple really.

[VH_WTF]

That's the second time 'just don't look' has been suggested. Presumably you, and the other, don't drive at night. Vehicles nor aircraft.

[inbalance]

After I commented they said “
Commenting about that on the radio qualities you as Karen of the month.

and bringing this topic to the forum here is evidence of deeper problems.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/806x462/img_4222_4355bed45fad0d8eaa24953d30b973fca5596df2.jpeg

[ShyTorque]

If it is a problem, why are crews not using the official occurrence reporting scheme?

[morno]

If it is a problem, why are crews not using the official occurrence reporting scheme?

They are, didn’t you know that all policy changes are as a result of pprune topics!

[Lead Balloon]

Won’t someone think of the children?Rest assured I understood the reference, itsnotthatbloodyhard. :ok:

[flightleader]

Won’t someone think of the children?

People don’t even think of them while in the process of making them!

[neville_nobody]

If it is a problem, why are crews not using the official occurrence reporting scheme?


Modern safety is a bit of a joke really. It’s all about being seen to be doing something and tackling the soft targets rather than taking on proper issues which create conflict with management or cost money. You can report all you like but nothing is done if it’s a difficult issue to fix.

[No Idea Either]

Modern safety is a bit of a joke really. It’s all about being seen to be doing something and tackling the soft targets rather than taking on proper issues which create conflict with management or cost money. You can report all you like but nothing is done if it’s a difficult issue to fix.

But at least you’ve covered your arse……..you can always then say ‘I told you so’….

[Mach E Avelli]

Modern safety is a bit of a joke really. It’s all about being seen to be doing something and tackling the soft targets rather than taking on proper issues which create conflict with management or cost money. You can report all you like but nothing is done if it’s a difficult issue to fix.
...or if the Chief Pilot has a fetish about lights...

[Qantas737]

Wing light comes on when ready to taxi, to 10,000 HAA, and then 10,000 HAA to approaching the gate. It's company policy. More lights the better, it's all about being seen.

[ACMS]

Commenting about that on the radio qualities you as Karen of the month.

and bringing this topic to the forum here is evidence of deeper problems.

If someone’s being an inconsiderate ******** then I’ll comment, if it hurts your tender feelings then too bloody bad.

[SandyPalms]

Really ACMS? How on earth do you drive at night? Every car has their headlights on, facing you. How precious could you be. I bet there are things you do that people think you’re an inconsiderate ****** for, but don’t post it on PPRune. Nobody does everything you want them to do, and the opposite is also true. I just wish pilots in this country would grow the F#$k up. It’s so pathetic.

[Lead Balloon]

Vehicle design rules and road rules prohibit headlights shining into the eyes of oncoming drivers. Car lens technology is very sophisticated these days, as are the systems on board cars to enable adjustment of beam angles.

It’s an offence to ‘dazzle’ another driver with your headlights.

[framer]

I think lights must affect different pilots differently. I’ve never been bothered by the Qantas lights policy or an opposite taxi light, hardly even notice it so I suspect some people are more sensitive to bright light.

[Captain Dart]

Then there's always Photon Drag to consider.

[megan]

Sounds like what you need is a dip switch, what would you prefer, foot actuation or stalk on the control column? Going to patent the idea.

[compressor stall]

Megan, make sure it’s blue and white wire to main beam and blue and red wire to dipped beam. Don’t make em like that any more (probably a good thing 🫤. )

[KRUSTY 34]

Wing light comes on when ready to taxi, to 10,000 HAA, and then 10,000 HAA to approaching the gate. It's company policy. More lights the better, it's all about being seen.

If that means blinding every other pilot of an aircraft that you pass abeam of, then Bravo.

Mission accomplished!

[VHOED191006]

If that means blinding every other pilot of an aircraft that you pass abeam of, then Bravo.

Mission accomplished!
How can you be blinded by lights 10nm away? Should pilots also turn off their landing lights before they reach the runway threshold so that they don't blind traffic holding short?

[Capn Rex Havoc]

So glad I am not flying in aus.
when two aircraft are hittin the holding point from opposite directions, it has always been common sense and polite to turn off your taxi lights while awaiting take off. When cleared for take off I avoid, turning on the lights til I’m passed facing directly to the folk opposite me.

[compressor stall]

Basic Airmanship.



(Airpersonship? Can’t be aircrewship under the CASRs….).

[compressor stall]

Yes IFALPA did put out a policy for wing lights on on taxi. And if that's their justification (which I have seen in various times here over the years) the devil is in the detail - that QF ignores it seems (based on multiple reports).
and the impact of external light use on others must always be considered.

And as for Jetstar’s reported edict about not to turn taxi/ turnoff lights off ever.. More devil in the detail in the same report.
Note 2: …. consider turning taxi and runway turn off lights off when stopped, yielding, or as a consideration to other pilots or ground personnel.

Note 3: Runway turn-off and taxi lights should always be ON during taxi. Outside the runway they may be temporarily switched off to avoid the blinding or dazzling effect, they should always be used when crossing a runway.

[Beer Baron]

Yes IFALPA did put out a policy for wing lights on on taxi. But the devil is in the detail - that QF ignores it seems (based on multiple reports).
You seriously think that line is suggesting to ignore the wing light policy/recommendation at all times? Or just when there are other aircraft around (ie. exactly when you want to avoid a collision)
Yes, there is advice about turning lights off to avoid dazzle, but it’s not talking about wing lights.

I can not understand how people are being dazzled by wing lights unless they are trying to be. Do we need a warning on the sun not to stare at it or turn off the flood lights on the apron as pilots can’t help themselves but stare at the bright light.
I operate from Qantas terminals, surrounded by Qantas aircraft obeying their light policy and have never been remotely dazzled by a wing light.

[framer]

I operate from Qantas terminals, surrounded by Qantas aircraft obeying their light policy and have never been remotely dazzled by a wing light.
​​​​​​​That is my experience as well.

[Lookleft]

Turn the bloody things off or don't turn them off. Use idle reverse on each landing or don't use it but as PIC don't go hiding behind the SOPs as though you don't have any choice as to how the aeroplane under your command is operated. I am not advocating wholesale disregard of the SOPs but you are being paid to think about how you operate and how that can impact on others. If you are too afraid to turn off a taxi light because a particular Check Captain might tell you off then you have abrogated your responsibility to voices in your head. No one I know has ever been stood down for turning the taxi light off as a courtesy to another aircraft.

[ACMS]

Agreed.

On that note I’d request the moderator to lock the thread.

I,ve made my point and had my question answered.

Happy New Year everyone, fly safe.

[framer]

Wait…..if we’re going to lock this one we need to start another thread equally as inane, something where we can astound each other with our pedantry for two or three days before Lookleft comes in and reminds us what’s what.
May I suggest headset usage as a topic? Specific which ear should be uncovered when? Can you tell I’m stuck in a hotel room?
Happy New Year

[KRUSTY 34]

How can you be blinded by lights 10nm away? Should pilots also turn off their landing lights before they reach the runway threshold so that they don't blind traffic holding short?

No quite sure that's what we're talking about here?

[B-757]

So, head to head with a Jetstar A320 the other day, I turned our taxi and turnoff lights off out of courtesy but they didn’t. After I commented they said “ we’re not allowed to turn them off”

what?..These people reciting their manuals to the T make me nervous..No common sense / no troubleshooting skills..A robot in the cockpit..

Fly safe,
B-757

[Deano969]

So, head to head with a Jetstar A320 the other day, I turned our taxi and turnoff lights off out of courtesy but they didn’t. After I commented they said “ we’re not allowed to turn them off”

what?
So just flash your landing lights twice and if they still don't shut them off leave your landing lights on for an awesome dazzling

[On eyre]

Sounds like what you need is a dip switch, what would you prefer, foot actuation or stalk on the control column? Going to patent the idea.
Definitely on the stalk - there has been plenty of stalk gripping going on in this thread.

[AerocatS2A]

It's very important to have your lights on during the day so you can be seen. Unless someone is looking at you, in which case it is important to turn your lights off so that they can't be seen. Or something.

[SixDemonBag]

The only thing we settled was now we know who stared at the sun when they were kids.